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General: Why Don't We See Classless Games?
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's Jon Wood writes this Staff Blog entry discussing the merits of classes and why we aren't likely to see a flurry of classless games in the near future.
A few weeks ago, I wrote a Staff Blog entry telling everyone why games with no levels weren’t likely to catch on within the industry. Going hand in hand with the idea of a game with no levels is the idea of a game with no classes. Again, there are many down sides to class-based systems. Classes are restrictive; they tend to shoehorn players into gameplay categories, specifically the familiar DPS, Tank, Healer triad. Classes as they are most often presented in MMOs also tend to highly restrict player choices, creating a feeling that every, say, 20th level Paladin is just like every other 20th level Paladin from attacks and abilities to armor and weapons.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
While classes may be restrictive, they give players familiar archetypes to choose from. To go totally classless would confuse a lot of players, especially newbies to the genra. Classless would require a lot more forward thought and research. Many players aren't willing to put that kind of time investment into a game to begin with. What would probably work better is a system in which you can choose an archetype with a list of skills similar to "classes". But be able to modify those to your liking or create your own archetype.
Just my thoughts on the subject..
-Tharkis
Eew, a forum post. I like these better than the blog response areas. So, I wrote:
Jon, game developers on the whole go out of their way to make their games so solo friendly in every aspect that I don't think the "classes" part of the equation is going to affect grouping that much. The vast majority of players don't group. If they do it's with 1 or 2 people they know and many times even though they are grouped they are in different locations doing their own things.
I guess the trick, then, is for these developers to make a classless game that doesn't allow for a "best build". I mean, isn't that what Beta testing is for?
Additionally:
Oh, and as Gaandar pointed out, you guys never give any respect and hold up Asheron's Call. Perfect example of a classless MMO that was a success.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I never said it couldn't be done. The article was about why you won't see it in many MMOs. In fact, all of the features in this series of articles CAN be done and actually HAVE been done at some point or another and in some form or another. The thing is, they're fringe features that aren't going to get picked up within the mainstream of MMOs. In the case of classes, I used grouping as an example, but it's by no means the only reason. it actually has a lot more to do with predictability and balance than anything else.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Face of Mankind. Classless game. Bye.
Classless games have less variety than classed games. Why? Because people do what is easiest and once a "best path" is figured out they all do it. Tank-mage, yehaw.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
A classless game could easily work you only need to look at tank/dps/heal in a different way.
For example:
Tank ability could easily be described by defense. Which could easily be a formula including armor, dodge, parry, deflect, weapon skill ect. This way someone who wants to play their character as a ranger/rogue/barbarian like class could still build their defense up enough to tank without having to wear heavy armor. For pet classes the master and pet could share in the damage and defense adding another diversity to tanking.
Healing could be a simple formula based on various skills like nature healing, holy healing, channeling healing.
DPS every combat skill should be able to damage in approximately the same.
The possiblilities are endless people just need to look at things from a different prespective.
I never said it couldn't be done. The article was about why you won't see it in many MMOs. In fact, all of the features in this series of articles CAN be done and actually HAVE been done at some point or another and in some form or another. The thing is, they're fringe features that aren't going to get picked up within the mainstream of MMOs. In the case of classes, I used grouping as an example, but it's by no means the only reason. it actually has a lot more to do with predictability and balance than anything else.
I'd have to disagree that the classless feature in specific is fringe. If it had actually been tried and used enough to actually gather metrics by AAA companies as a method of character progression then a proper evaluation of whether it is fringe or not could be made. As it is, UO, AC have been the only attempts by large companies, both of which are still going (so I would say success) and several attempts by indy (smaller) companies, of note being EvE (which is a success).
For me, it's hard to label anything fringe if the large companies with the money to do it well don't give it a few serious go's. In my view, the only fringe feature in MMO design is a developer at a AAA company that doesn't have a Blizzard Bible/Koran in their desk.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I think you are over stating that a lot. Even though many people didn't go with the tank mage there were many others that didn't. When trammel opened up it allowed even more diversity because people weren't building their character with the best pk defense in mind. You are right that a lot of people will tank the path of least resistance, but just because that path is there doesn't mean you should damn everyone being set classes.
I have to say I really disagree with your grouping argument. Classes make grouping much harder than a classless game. A simple example is WoW. How many times in WoW did you have a group of people ready to go but you are missing a key ingredient, such as a healer or tank. You can't go because no one is the specific classes needed to continue on. Classes force players to play one specific role in the holy trinity.
As a counter-example, in SWG during the CU, still with a skill based system, I grouped more in that game than any other game. It wasn't a matter of being a specific class or having specific skills, it was "can you heal?" or "can you tank?". I was a Master Rifleman, Master Carbineer, 4XXX Combat Medic, and while I was a dpser, if my group needed someone to heal, my skill set allowed me to switch gear and heal moderately well.
I can say I have grouped way more in skill based games than I have in class based games.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
HMMMMMMMMMMM...................
DARKFALL - CLASSLESS GAME
CHAMPIONS ONLINE - CLASSLESS GAME
FINAL FANTASY XIV - CLASSLESS GAME
Those are 3 recent games that are all classless and I'm certain there are many more.
I am sure FFXIV will be a huge success, so your article is wrong IMO.
In a classless games such as FFXIV, you can switch weapons and take on any role you want at any time, that makes it very simple to join a party and take on any role that is needed.
GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!
I find it odd to refer to it as a trinity. It is not just tank/dps/heals. Even WoW before it was dumbed down even further had more than just the three.
Okay, so we started with Fighter/Cleric/Mage back in '74. They added Thief(Rogue) pretty soon after that, though.
Though we have had variations over the years of these four base classes, combinations of them, the mutant offspring of them - even without being restricted by the labels of the class - we inevitably end up portraying the roles of those classes.
It is funny how the 4th ed AD&D pretty much comes close to what WoW was sporting before dumbing it down with their Leader (heal/buff), Striker (dps), Defender (tank), and Controller (debuff/dps/aoe dps).
Say we go with just the three though - tank/dps/heal. I will start off using a Druid from WoW as an example. Three specs which can lead to being tank, close dps, ranged dps, or heal. So say we drop the Druid label for a moment. We just go with an open system that allows people to be tank, close dps, ranged dps, or heal. Say that person spreads their development across all four. That person will not be as good at a given task as somebody that specialized for it. So the odds are that in a system that did not have classes, a person would still end up specializing into a role whether it was official or not. Think of some of the tri-spec epic failures you have seen.
People will try to counter things like this with EVE, stating that you can learn whatever you like and become as good in any role the game has given enough time to train the skills. Yes, after 3-4 years - there you go, you are the tank mage - woot, woot, and all that jazz. During that first year or so, you are pretty much specializing in a role. Or perhaps you are just kind of relaxed about it, because there is no End Game to rush to...
I actually think that is what the problem is. End Game.
Is it really about being locked into a class? Technically, if there were no End Game ala EVE in games such as WoW and the rest - at some point you would be able to train to fill all those roles you dream of being able to fill. Of course, then it would more or less become a case of arguing about who wants to do what, no? I mean if everybody can do everything, why would anybody want to get stuck with just doing one part? Well, guess we could always just create classes to let people do what they prefer to do... oh wait....
Eve Online is a great example of a non-class game.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I disagree on this point. UO/AC and their ilk are good examples.
EVE is a good example of a game without an End Game. It is only because you can train for years and years, that it appears to be a good non-class game. Throw in an End Game with a skill cap... and then what would you have?
I was really surprised at reading this Jon. I'd expect you, of all people, to have your finger on the pulse of the MMO genre so it shocked me that you are so unaware of how many current games have classless systems.
Darkfall
Eve
Fallen Earth
Champions Online
FFXVI
Roma Victor
Planeshift
Jumpgate Evolution
Mabinogi
Vendetta Online
and I'm sure there are more...
Good God man, get youself up to date!
Why don't we see classless games? The simple answer would be lack of imagination, developer aversity to risk, game design for the lowest common denominator - everything that robs creativity I suspect.
20th level Paladin is just like every other 20th level Paladin from attacks and abilities to armor and weapons.
Yes, and its belittling and immersion breaking. It really brings home how little imagination can go into class based games.
Classes though, like levels, are a tried and tested game mechanic, going back all the way into the roots of the RPG genre...
Yes, all the way back to D&D and pen and paper. Class was a simple concept to meet the needs of people who did not have PCs and required a simple game structure. The first computer based RPGs were no doubt targeting D&D players. The use of class would have made sense, it was familiar and easy to implement. Like many things, we tend to be more accepting of things that we are familiar with, even if they are not necessarily the best. The reality is that most people do not deal with change very well, and most publishers and investors are looking to minimise risk and therefore they want to do what has been done before.
Aside from the obvious and unnecessarily ominous sounding fact that classes allow developers to more easily predict and control player actions
Yes, it is easier for developers - I'm not sure that makes it better for players. Nor do I like to be predicatable and controlled.
there’s also a little system near and dear to many players’ hearts that would be hurt in the absence of the good ‘ol class-based trinity. Grouping.
I'm just not sure about this unjustified assertion that implies that without classes people wouldn't group. What classes do hurt is the good 'ol notion of interaction with other players. It is so simple in most class based games for an LFF to be sent out, such as 'LF2M, DPS and Tank' and a response comes in '39 Guard', you get accepted into the group, you say 'Hi', and off you go. As the tank you pull, do your aggro moves, expect and generally receive a heal when your health is low, you kill the boss, you say 'thanks', and off you go. Classes have reduced most groups to two words of interaction. Is that what MMOs are about?
Despite the not so well informed belief by Jon to the contrary, people group in games where there are no classes. I remember grouping a few times at least in AC and I do it in Mortal Online at the moment - in fact I tend(ed) to group more in these games than in LoTRO or WoW (probably because it's a lot more dangerous in a PvP setting) - so I'm not sure that class has much to do with grouping.
Imagine a classless system, where you are grouping with people with no predefined roles. You have to talk to each other! You have to work out who's going to do what. You might even make some friends! An idea a little foreign to most class based games, but you have to use some lateral thinking as well!
In a world where many old time players are asking themselves what ever happened to MMO design that encouraged grouping, removing classes from the equation is going to throw an even bigger monkey wrench in the gears.
I think we covered that, people do group in games where there are no classes. Try playing one before writing stuff like this.
Classes make it easier for players looking for the statistical advantage in group content to know who to invite into their party. You know, for example, that at minimum you’re going to need a tank a healer and a DPS, probably ranged and melee.
And you can do it with half a line of acronyms! Very efficient. Very everything an MMO should not be.
In the end, classes exist to create archetypes for players to follow in order to take the maximum advantage of what different role builds have to offer.
I'm not sure that made any sense. What was just said was something like classes provide a template so that people don't have to think about what they should do. I'm not sure that is a positive.
Sure, you could let players choose their own abilities and build their own characters from the ground up, but in the end you’d wind up with a game that is almost impossible to balance
We certainly wouldn't want people to use their imaginations or be individuals when it comes to character creation. And again, this argument about it being easier for developers to balance - does that make it better for players? In any event, it is a stupid argument, because balance is only a problem for developers when there are classes. If you have no class, only skills, then the developers don't need to worry about balance. Balance is a matter for the player when they pick the skills they wish to train. If the player finds that he or she is not competetive, he or she retrains a different skill. So the argument that classes are necessary to address a problem that only arises because of classes is a little circular.
The irony of this scenario is that in the end, after the best possible build in a classless game had been found and posted on every MMO website online, the game would actually be left with less diversity than classes have to offer as everyone rushes to build the ideal character.
That is simply not true. Yes, templates do get posted, based on peoples opinions about what are the best. One of the most fun aspects of AC was putting together templates. And when it comes to peoples' opinions, (unlike classes) there is as much differing opinion as there are gamers. There was certainly more diversity than the eight lots of clones that we will see in Aion for example. And just who finds the ultimate template - it hasn't ever happened in any skill based game. People play differently, people have different preferences, people have different opinions. There will never be 'the one' best template. You need to get out a little more Jon and do some research before posting such nonsense.