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(locked on main forums) Major flaw of CO, only one class, cause for lack of teaming.
joe2119
Member UncommonPosts: 62
This was posted on the main forums of CO and then instantly locked, deleted, and I was banned from the forums. Obviously the developers do not want to address a glaring issue with the game so I highly suggest you steer clear. I was the one to make the post addressing the issue in a more intelligent and friendly way and the quoted block was from another user who brought up a good point but in a flaming fashion.
While I disagree with the method the OP brought this issue up I do agree with some of his points and the issue needs to be either address or the game will be a problem...These directly involve working as a team also so fixing this issue would also fix teamwork and group content.
"A few very horrendous and fundamental flaws will preclude Champions Online from ever having that sort of variety and depth.
First, a clarification needs to be made about the "skill" system. Conventional wisdom suggests that a skill system, as opposed to a class system, provides more variety and greater freedom in character design. What one needs to understand is that Champions online does not have a skill system, but rather an ability system. There's not a skill, per se, that, for instance, governs your proficiency with axes, lasers, etc. There is only a moderate collection of *abilities* and and various, marginally useful stats, which are important, strangely, depending on the player's conscious decision in picking his favorite one.
Because there are no real obstacles to picking any ability for any character, the game is destined to devolve into a string flavors of the month, which differ only insofar as whether the eye beam is blue or red--or is actually a chest beam. Because a guy firing telepathic mind beams can govern his damage with strength, the game is destined to devolve into the laughable implausibility of support characters hurling cars and ranged characters tanking at melee range. Because all characters can choose from all abilities, the game is destined to devolve, after a string of nerfs, into an unsightly shade of mediocrity in which all abilities are moderately useless--or, conversely, devolve into a homogeneous soup of sameness, where the only differences are cosmetic. Because mediocre CC and thoroughly uninspired abilities preclude anything like an interesting support class, the game is destined to devolve into a herd of offensive/defensive characters with zero utility.
Why take telepathy so that I can hold a minion for a short duration (after which he is immune to further holding), when I can, like everyone else, take invulnerability or regeneration and do something useful? Or, said another way, why take <insert name of currently underpowered and uninteresting ability> when I can take <insert name of currently overpowered ability> when there is zero opportunity cost because my stats only mean anything insomuch as I choose them to mean something, so various ranged abilities do not interfere with my current <insert name of currently overpowered stat> stat-whoring?
Another casualty in the ongoing rush to satisfy so-called casual gamers with uncomplicated trash."
TL;DR: basically, The game will be full of people with all the same "strongest" skills and only one class will be dominant. A tank/dps. There isn't much point in making anything else nor can you even make anything else really. The only thing that will set us apart will be our particle effects and colors. If we can do everything why team?
Suggestion/Solution: I believe the easiest solution is to make stats govern skills logically...
hence,
strength will effect melee damage
dexterity will effect ranged physical damage and crit
constitution will effect durability and health
intelligence will effect ranged magical damage
ego will effect aggro or maybe just stay as is
presence will effect healing and aggro decay
recovery and endurance are fine as is...
Discuss....intelligently please. I want this game to succeed but this is a MAJOR flaw that could be adjusted rather easily i believe and make this game class/group oriented.
Comments
It's not a glaring fault and I wouldn't trust anyone who said "Recovery... is fine as it is." because it's number one or number two on the dumperino list. The reason it was locked was because the post had devolved(?!) into useless bickering, exhausted all worth, and after having closed it, you showed no respect at all by reposting it in another thread. Your gripe seems to be that group content is weak, and can be soloed, or that group content will be will people soloing in the same area and you want to blame the superstats system. Really? How does that make any sense? And you want to make not one, but two stats effect aggro, an artificial MMO concept to begin with, as a solution?
Here's a protip for you. Strength ALREADY effects melee damage! So if you make Strength a superstat and get melee attacks you are essentially double dipping. Plus if you knock a toon back a far ways away, you inflict extra damage from the fall.
Not a glaring fault? This is the difference between this game being an MMO and a single player game.
Even if people were bickering on the thread it doesn't make the points he made invalid. They are problems and they aren't being addressed.
No respect? I'm only trying to help cryptic by bringing this obvious and GLARING flaw to their attention....they are marketing this as an MMORPG after all.
Ok, because damage is based on the prime stat if you make that prime stat constitution you're a tank and dps. Where is the logic in that? You deal high damage and can take high damage. Why play anything else? (if this is not the way it works please inform me, i was told that your super stats govern the damage for all your skills.)
If the method I suggested was put in place someone stacking constitution would only be a tank and not have high dps because his dps would be based on another stat.
As for two stats effecting aggro, one is reducing aggro and the other is increasing. What is wrong with that?
Pretty much I have to disagree. Sure it can be boiled down to that for min/maxing groups but the group of people I play with don't do that. I know tons of other people that don't do that. Most people play the game to have fun. Thats includes socializing. There is enough high level stuff in there to cause people to join groups.
The OP is an opinion, it is FAR from fact.
fair enough, thank you for a intelligent response...i just fear future nerfs to defensive mechanics due to people complaining that that defense and dps too.
I feel that defense is currently in a good spot.
meh the thread writer didnt know what he was talking bout. People were tank maging in City of Heroes as well. Hence, the optimal team distribution was usually 8 Corrupter/Defender all-star team with maybe 1 Stone Tank/Brute thrown in for good measure. But was possible for 8 Tank mages to farm the hardest content in the game when I left when Hami-Os was the shiznit
Just like CoH, some people will be pure Melee. Some will tank mage, etc.
Some of yall may remember a Sonic Corrupter/Defender could buff themselves hard to resist and tank was fun times. Overlapping buffs FTW
The solution is simple- liuke other classless MMOs eventually the devs will have to add Epic drops that can only be farmed at with a group of 5 members.
They already have equipment and crafting so these 'lairs' or whatever will no doubt be perfect opportunity to get people to group
I'm very happy with the game right now and i am glad they removed his thread :P
Also, they could use more instanced missions like the predeccesor had that allows groups to farm XP x3 faster than people solo. My guild we used to powerlevel lowbies so fast they didnt know what level they were when they left.
Moderators don't like people reposting locked topics. It looks like you were banned for reposting the other person's post after his thread was locked on page six. Your one-post repost thread is still there in the forums, and here is the original posting still there in the forum:
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=37307
"then instantly locked, deleted, and I was banned from the forums. Obviously the developers do not want to address a glaring issue "
Well since this is a lie lmao.. I guess the rest must be true huh... The games still in beta.. man give it a few months then come back and cry
I humbly disagree with the OP. Yes there will be FOTM builds... it happened in closed beta, and it will happen upon release... but they are always for those that take the easy way out. Truly building a good working build isn't tough. Min/Maxing will be a waste of time in this game, the edge will never be the stronger character, but actually the team that works together (in PvP) or the build thats built for either A) extremely fast killing or
Extremely strong defense.
Being able to mix A and B is not easy... and min maxing sets will solely revolve around stances. My defensive character is built for just that, defense. my offensive character for offense. the fact that you can change stances (but not in combat) is nice, but the fact that certain powers cannot be used in all stances creates issues.
Staying in a balances role may be the answer.... but then you aren't min-maxing, you're playing the middle man. It is possible to play a jack of all trades, it is also possible to play a tank, or support character, or damage dealer, and I have sufficiently tested each build and made some builds that didn't have a "star power" that stole the show.
So by cherry picking your powers and trying to make a catch all character, you do have disadvantages as well. Doing what the OP suggests is much harder then it sounds.
I'd have to disagree, I don't think it's a "one class" issue as it stands right now. Assuming it is, I don't think it'll be that way in the future.
As it is right now, there's the various "roles" with names like Avenger and Protector etc. Basically what these boil down to is DPS/Tank/Support/Balanced. Each of these roles makes you better at what it is they're designed for. Everyone starts out as Balanced, which has no benefits or weaknesses, and that's how most people are playing the game. This is of course also the best way to solo. Where it starts to split off is when you look at what you actually get. For example I know that if I switch from Balanced to the DPS role, I will do approximately double the amount of damage. Not only that, I believe I will do it faster and more often. The downside is that I will produce a lot more threat, thus I need a tank who will out-threat me and be able to soak up the damage while he does. I think once the average player realizes he can do much better at what he wants to do by using these roles, people will start splitting off into specializations. I've already been a party to it myself.
For example, doing a team mission I switched from dps to balanced because they were all balanced, and when I was staying dps, I was taking most of the threat from the mobs. Sure I was killing them faster, but I'm not specced to be a damage sponge so every hit hurt. We were all balanced so we all did about the same. However another situation was quite different. Someone was asking for people to go kill a giant robot in one of the open missions (public quests). I switched to DPS and I am sure that I was doing the most damage to the robot out of anyone, but if I'd been taking the most threat I would have been squished quite easily. Luckily we had someone in the team who was Tank stance so I could do my offensive stuff and not have to worry. On any challenging content I would put a team of people in the varied stances above a team of all balanced guys any day. If we'd been all balanced for the robot fight, we would have just taken turns dying. Instead, as we played our roles then our jobs became easier. I was literally doing twice my normal damage, and the guy tanking was able to take damage that would have killed me quickly. Okay I've spent two paragraphs going on about it working, I'll move on.
For any of the challenging content, I'd say people need to be using their different roles in order to do it effectively. I think the current problem of most people using balanced is only a matter of time while people get to the higher tier content, or until they realize they can do much better switching it up. In addition, I don't think it'll stay this way (if it is a problem now) simply because CO can always be tweaked. They could tweak it so in a team you can't use balanced, making it useable only if you're solo. Or they could make the non-balanced stances even more powerful to entice more use out of them. Heck they could technically take it out of the game entirely.
Clearly Cryptic is aware of the people saying this is a problem. They could perhaps have a fix, or know there is no problem with the final state of the content they'll be putting out. It really is only a chicken and the egg situation; do we want to encourage roles to encourage teaming, or do we want to encourage teaming to encourage roles? As with all MMOs, I'm sure Cryptic will look to balance it if they think it could cause people to be less interested in the game.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
There are all ready lairs in the game and you do have to group up for them to beat it. King Pong is one I hear all the time Looking for group. Same with Sinsister. Pretty much they made instances tough.
Edit.
Oh and the Player Quests are another spot you need to group.
Sounds like lots of 'grass is greener on the other side' syndrome mixed in with a few OP powers. It will settle down, but there will always be people crying about being killed by power X and they will insist it needs to be nerfed. You can count on that like death and taxes.
A lot of good points are made in this thread. The DPS potential of an offensive roles is rather massive compared to a balanced roles, but in order to take advantage of that offensive role you need a tank oriented character in a defensive role to control aggro... otherwise your going to get stomped out. Running a group with 1 defense role guys/3 offensive role guys/ and 1 support/balanced guy is much much more efficient than running it w/ 5 balanced guys.
Once people realize this, you'll start seeing people specializing in there role of choice. And I suspect they'll start adding content thats difficult enough where it becomes more necessary to have tank type characters backed up with support roles .
I agree with the OP...Champions Online gives you the illusion of having lots of options, both in terms of how you look and how you fight. When first making a character, it appears that you can mix and max to your hearts content, but for some reason, by selecting to have your character wear a hood, for instance, you are locked out of other options. Want to have a character with a hood and tentacles for a mouth...can't do it. The list goes on and on. As a result, it becomes hard to design a truly unique character. I constantly saw heroes running around looking very similar to the way I looked.
Next, comes the powers. Sure, there's lots to choose from, but some combinations are so weak or problematic that you'll have trouble completing quests/missions. For instance, one of my characters was a toad-like sorcerer, so as a travel power I picked acrobatics. Big mistake on both counts. Sorcery is weak and if you stop to try to heal yourself, you’ll die. Lots of bad guys surrounding you, need to make a quick getaway? Use your acrobatic powers and jump/roll away…looks and sounds cool, only problem is you’ll slam right into another group of bad guys who will begin following you. This goes on and on until, in the end, you are dead.
OK, so this character combo didn’t work out, guess I’ll make something stronger in order to play the game…like a blaster with flight powers. Now, I not only look very similar to everyone else, I’m also fighting the same way as well.
I am a big fan of the pnp game as well as COX. What I liked best about the pnp game was the ability to make truly unique heroes. For every strength you picked, you needed to pick a weakness. In the end, I enjoyed both games more than my time with Champions Online. CO is fun, but its an action game that lacks deep characterization and the ability to build truly unique heroes…that’s why I decided, for now, to give this one a pass.
Problem #1: The OP assumes everyone plays exactly the same way.
That's simply not true. Maybe some of the min-maxers can be lumped together. But many people play what they want to play. There are a lot of people who want to be melee. Does the fact that melee have major problems in PvP stop them from queuing up for minigames? Nope.
Casual gamers make up a huge percentage of the subscriber base. Their goal is to have fun, while still making progress. If a casual gamer wants to be a ninja, he's going to make a ninja. If he wants to be Ironman, he's going to make an Ironman.
Plenty of gamers in City of Heroes made loads of alts. Do you think every single alt was a FOTM? Of course not.
The open skill system gives us the freedom to make a hero play the way we want it to play. We aren't restricted by strict class boundaries like in other MMORPG's.
Problem #2: The OP neglects to consider the value of teamwork and roles.
A team working well together is far better than a bunch of lone rangers grouped together. Sometimes it does work if everyone has the same tank-DPS-healer hybrid build. Oftentimes, it's better to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. Not every person wants to play a tank-mage. Some people like being the tank or a healer or a glass cannon.
Problem #3: The OP thinks there is only one best power.
The open skill system provides a lot of flavor in choosing our powers. What criteria are you using to pick the best powers? Everyone is going to have a slightly different criteria. For similar skills, like the various 100m charge up blasts, even min-maxers won't be able to agree on which one is the best one.
Take a look at Guild Wars. It's probably one of the best alternative examples of a game with a lot of freedom for choosing powers. For most of the classes, there is no one ultimate best build. If I want to make a warrior who uses a scythe or a sword or an axe, I can make it. I'll be perfectly welcome in any teams.
This isn't made to be a group based game. It's a solo centric themepark for casual fun and glorified dueling for getting a slight PvP kick. It was never advertised as more or less.
Players should probably steer away from the 'what was advertised' ploy to make a point; the marketing groups of all these mmorpgs 'spin' content and game-play outof control consistently.
So lets stick with the reality, and that is, your right, this game is nothing more than a singularity of PvE game-play where it's single-player all the time for the most-part and as with single-player rpg lobby-type games, you can play with some others. There's nothing I've personally found that is evolutionary or revolutionary about this game but a re-packaged CoH. And theres nothing wrong with that, but offers a change of story and scenery.
This is a PvE-centric single-player rpg as far as I can tell and have experienced. And as with other PvE-centric mmorpgs, there is no breadth, depth, game-play motivation, value or dynamic to PvP, other than getting into an arena where the guy with the better 'ranged' abilities and stats wins.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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And yet the character customization and skill system is deeper then Aion.
Did I mention the graphics are pretty amazing, with possibility of dx10 in the future
Im not interested in paying $15 a month to create a character in a pretty virtual world. And the skill system really boils down to ranged or melee that offers different named abilities but all with the same end-result; so your just really customizing your animation.
And yet the character customization and skill system is deeper then Aion.
Did I mention the graphics are pretty amazing, with possibility of dx10 in the future
Im not interested in paying $15 a month to create a character in a pretty virtual world. And the skill system really boils down to ranged or melee that offers different named abilities but all with the same end-result; so your just really customizing your animation.
Since its not you don't have to worry. Every power is something different. Except for a few that are the same.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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There are all ready lairs in the game and you do have to group up for them to beat it. King Pong is one I hear all the time Looking for group. Same with Sinsister. Pretty much they made instances tough.
Edit.
Oh and the Player Quests are another spot you need to group.
Thanks for your post and clarification.
And yet the character customization and skill system is deeper then Aion.
Did I mention the graphics are pretty amazing, with possibility of dx10 in the future
Im not interested in paying $15 a month to create a character in a pretty virtual world. And the skill system really boils down to ranged or melee that offers different named abilities but all with the same end-result; so your just really customizing your animation.
We are building superheroes here. If you dont understand that then have fun playing WoW where you are all the same in the end and look the same. Here in Champions we all look unique and we can build characters base don our favorite superheros
Now i can finally make a real superman hero. I can make a 'blue beetle' hero. Hell I can go guns and swords now too.
This is the perfect system to make the ultimate dream hero u alwayts wanted to be. No other game gives me this freedom! Not even CoH would let me make my ideal hero
I'm sorry to say but this is going to be a problem in any skill/ability based game just the same as it is in any class based game. In class based games people gravitate towards the most powerful class. Why would players in a ability/skill based game not do the same thing? They are going to gravitate towards the most powerful abilites. This is why I have never gotten into the whole class based vs skill based debate because in the end it's really the same.
In the end a skill based system will end up one of two ways depending on how its balanced. If there are "caps" keeping you from only going so high in one "tree" then half way up another tree you are still going to end up with the same style as a class based system. There will be tanks, DPS, healers, etc. On the other hand if there are NO caps and everyone can learn everything then everyone is just going to be the same. It's a class bassed system based on skills instead of a class name.
In the end the issue isnt classes, skills, abilities or whatever. The issue is that there are certain ROLES that need to be filled. Stuff needs to die so you are always going to have DPS characters. It doesnt matter if it's called a Assassian or if someone put a bunch of skills together to make a DPS class. Characters are always going to require healing so it doesnt matter if your character is called a priest or just has a bunch of healing skills. See where I am going with this?
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
I completely disagree with the original post.
Of course, at lower levels, where content can be soloed and the depth you can go into any skill set is limited, most people will be opting for self sufficient builds. Even then, the combination of skills you can chose are widely varied. I've personally tried five very different builds and enjoyed them all. There are also multiple builds with in a power set that work, let alone the ability to pull skills from other power sets!
What about the lack of need for grouping? This will depend on content. The ability system itself does not preclude grouping. Remember, you unlock additional build slots as you level. You will have a second build slot by the time you enter MC (I believe even slightly before). Players can afford to have a general, solo-centric build AND a highly specific group role build. You CAN build very focused character builds that will only be viable and truly shine in a balanced, mixed role group.
If the game does lack in content that requires carefully built groups, that can be added upon as the game progresses. There is nothing in the skill system itself that precludes teams from being built around role specific team builds. The specific bonuses for the individual build roles boost the capabilities of such focused builds beyond what would be achieved if everyone just grouped with balanced builds.
I'm not deep enough into the game to know how much more group content becomes more prolific and demanding at the higher levels. It's clear, though, that the ability system is not flawed in a way that prevents wide variation of builds and the formation of teams in which characters specialize for a particular role.
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