The explanations are really lacking. Stats took a lot of effort to figure out. And how many people take how long to understand those "add this to a power", "works in certain circumstances" things that drop into your inventory? At least they use real numbers, which is something Emmert had specifically tried to avoid with early City of Heroes.
But to the OP's point, "everyone does everything" definitely is a problem and it was one of my big complaints against World of Warcraft (which I never liked), and Champions goes worlds beyond that.
Objectively they have this "you can be anything you want!" attitude and think it will lead to such unique and diverse characters. But in reality, just the opposite. OK, so I have: a ranged Energy Blast, a melee single sword, an ice shield, regeneration passive, a force Crowd Control, a spirit pet, a force shield buff, and an empathic heal.
Then I make another character with: a ranged fire blast, a melee claws attack, an earth shield, invulnerability passive, a mystic crowd control, a wolf pet, a mind buff and a telepathic heal.
Wow, how different!
Then I team up with a guy with a ranged archery attack, melee martial arts, personal force field passive, a ... oh wait, who am I kidding? Who ever teams long enough to even know what your teammates have?
It's a problem. Teaming up is about adding bodies, which always helps, but everyone does everything so it's not all that interesting. I can summon pets to take the alpha, or pop my shield and stroll in. I can hang back and buff/heal whoever's "the tank", or just be dps. Variety, right? Not really. When I'm soloing, sure that's fine because it lets me apply different methods in different situations. But it means all teams are the same, so it gets old fast. And worse, alts offer no alternative play - just different colors.
Yes I know you can build your stats a certain way, and use equipment that favors those chosen stats. But so I favored Strength, Constitution, and Presence, and you favored Endurance, Recovery, and Intelligence, and he kept everything even across the board. What's the real difference anyway, 5%? Maybe 10% tops?
I compare this to City of Heroes (not a perfect game, but the only one I've ever stuck with) where a Tank, Blaster, Controller have NOTHING in common. Where even within an Archetype the differences stand out. Playing an alt is a completely different experience, and teaming can change up the experience dramatically based on what archeytpes you have.
Maybe this will lure people in who think it encourages great diversity. But I suspect as they get to the end they'll all sense this sameness, and that it will hurt long-term play.
1) I don't know what you're talking about. Most power sets have MORE powers than you can possibly take. I was munitions, and only did Munitions (outside of ONE regen which is Supernatural set) and there was still like 4-5 powers left in munitions I couldn't get.
2) Cookie Cutter means exactly the same. CO is the LEAST cookie cutter of ANY. There ARE reasons to take multiples of one attack. Every attack does something unique. I took two single target attacks. Why? One does a ton of damage at point blank range, and requires little energy. The other does the same damage but has DOUBLE the range and the ability to burst high amounts of damage if needed (although not energy sufficient.) Healing works the same way. There are MANY different ways to heal, which do different things, different extra effects, etc. There ARE plenty of reasons to take multiple heals, multiple AoE's, multiple melee attacks, etc.
I wanted to get both AOE's in Munitions. Why? Because SMG AoE has a large range, and more burst damage. But Shotgun knocked ppl down with less range. SMG's added bleeding DoT, but Shotguns could give a charged 100% knockdown. There is plenty of reasons to take BOTH of those in ADDITION to the Frag Grenade AoE, Rocket AoE, etc.
I cannot even begin to DESCRIBE how non-cookie cutter this is. If you want to be pure AoE, you can have almost ALL your powers be AoE- and you can choose the right effect for the right opponents. You'd kill. There is PLENTY of reasons to not take healing- especially if you have Regen 3 or Devices you can craft which heal you instantly.
3) I believe they should have MORE powers, and MORE power upgrades. I do agree with you that they should have more power upgrades and upgrade points. You get so few points though... you basically DO get fewer powers. Which makes it hard to see your complaint.
At level 40, you'll want all your powers to be rank 3 to give more damage to match your opponent's HP and Defense. This can't happen. You get A LOT more powers than you get advantages to upgrade them. You have to select which powers to spec in- which kindof makes a lot of other powers worthless. Which makes my earlier point a little weak, seeing as how you wouldn't be able to do much else if you wanted to spec in AoE. You'd have to get all AoE attacks to Rank 3- and their special, which would make every other power Rank 1, without a special ability. This wouldnt gimp you, but would make you purely were you focused your advantages (AoE).
This means that you could spec almost entirely in multiple single target attacks. Pump Rank 3 + Special in all of them, and still have AoE and Heals. But your AoE and Heals will suck compared to someone who spec'd in AoE and Heals. In fact, AoE would only be beneficial if you really did more damage (enough players there). But having Rank 1 doesn't hinder your ability, since they stack with your level.
4) The more I think about it... the more I like the currenct system. Limited number of advantages makes the other powers less useful. Everyone can have a hold, heal, AoE, defense, and single target attack- but EVERYONE will have a specialization. Clearly, no one with Rank 1 healing will be able to match the damage output of a Rank 3 AoE attack. Someone focused on Rank 3 attacks, might be stuck with Rank 1 defenses.
One Munitions character will have a maxed out Shotgun and Frag Grenade, with everything else Rank 2, give or take. This makes his primary attack shotgun- and everything else is good, but not great, and not weak either. This guy wants to do AoE effects and knockdowns.
The next munitions guy? He's a sniper (charged high damage single shots) and Assault Rifle (long ranged Single target damage).
The next? Close Combat Ranged Pistols and Pistol-Melee attacks. maybe even some close combat sword attacks.
Yet another? He has the shotgun, but that's it. The other powers focus is the Chainsaw arm, and a fire power to imitate molotov cocktails. He's the zombie killer!
This doesn't even include stats: which are vital to fulfilling your role. A healer with 3 different Rank 3 healing abilities + special + high Presence- will be a powerhouse healer compared to a DPS Robot Sorcerer with Rank 1 healing ability, high damage but very low Presence.
I'm not sure how you are missing what I'm saying.... The "recommended" stats give a bonus of like 20% in damage to powers vs other stats or the same stats from a different build. They also give that bonus to all powers reguardless of what framework you pull the power from.
They don't. There is an error somewhere in your testing.
The only stats the give a pure % damage boost are your focus stats you choose, and yes those give a boost to all powers regardless of framework.
This is silly. You can build cookie cutter heroes if you want to or you can build highly focused ones if you want. I really, really do not understand the "I want to be unique just like every other arms warrior out their" argument.
Sure you have 14 powers but you do not have enough advantage points to fully rank up each one. So if you want to maximize DPS then you're going to fully rank and Energy Form--which is a passive and you can only have one of those active at a time so no Force Field or Regen going--several of your attacks, a temp Energy Form--which is an active power that stacks with you regular Energy Form--and maybe a control and an active defense if you can afford it.
If you want to make a tank you're going to do the opposite. Rank up a passive defense, at least one active defense, maybe two or three, and some of your attacks.
if you want to make a character in the middle you'll do some of each, but you will not be as good at either.
What you are really complaining about is that well rounded characters are the most popular and no one is being forced to make builds that favor DPS, Tanking, or Support. I consider that a very good thing.
i hit the wall so many times in games being stuck in a role that couldnt be flexable and get the job done that i quit those games sometimes shortly after loading the game up and paying 50 bucks
your prob seeing alot of ppl like me who are drawn to this game like me in hearing you can make your toon how you like and get over those barriers other games told us were "content"
its only been beta so far and were just having fun so why go and chat away saying words like "cookiecutter" when it all get wiped tonite anyway
go make your epic whatever makes you feel secure toon for your raid guild and enjoy
im only playing CO for the freedom reason and im tired to death of fantasy dwarves elves etc....its so whored out there is no way anyone can sell me them romantic ideas.. id rather read a old dragonlance book again lol
I finally deciphered how the stats are working on advancing your powers... It doesn't have anything to do with the recommended stats other then you start off with bonus points in that area. Damage in powers is based on your primary stats that you select. So if you select a primary stat of str then as you add points into str it increases the damage of all your powers. This is based on that stat exclusively. Later you get to pick a secondary stat focus and if you pick say rec then that also adds to your damage. From that point on those are the two stats that control damage output. So framework you choose is actually irrelevant and the recommended powers don't matter other then that you get a few extra points in those powers for a particular framework.
What was confusing me was that on my ice character I was changing the primary and talent picks to be the same so every time it went up but it was better for the two recommended stats because they both had 7 more base points then the other stats. this was why some of the other character tests were confusing cause they were higher lvl and I couldn't drop my first primary stat selection which I'd made to correspond to the recommended stat. So frameworks don't matter and unless you want to go with the recommended stats you are probably better off making a custom character although it really only gets you a few points difference which in the long run probably doesn't matter much.
Not exactly true on what to choose. There are a few concerns of primary importance.
One is what is your means of getting energy. If you have a melee energy builder, you will have to be able to close distance.
Another concern is what are the skills you want enhanced by. Personal forcefield is enhanced by Ego and Endurance. Many heals are enhanced by presence.
So if you go Ego/Dex for a lot of extra critical damage then PFF isa good choice and Invulnerability being STR/Con based not so much.
If you are melee then Str gives a bonus to damage that stacks with the Superstats. But if you are ranged Dex/ego will be best for maximum damage. On the other hand Enudrance helps some sets with damage since they need large amount of energy to hit hard on the maintain abilities.
So if you are melee you may go STR/Con and take invuln or you might go Dex/Ego and take PFF. This might wind up with similar damage through different means. But some Marital arts abilities utilize crits either triggering off of them or doing extra damage on them, which adds in another consideration.
In one sense framework does not matter in the long run (ie. you only get powers quicker) but some things run in a framework as well. Telekenesis like Endurance for its damage, I think telepathy likes Ego for its damage. Pets are enhanced by Int and presence. Some offensive passives only affects attack from the framework. For example there is a munitions one that triggers on Crits and only on Munitions abilities.
The difference in damage between two melee build that took Invulnerability where one took STR/CON and the other took Dex/Ego may be very little but the difference in defenses will be very noticable. Similarly a melee toon that takes something like End/Recovery will see a noticeable decrease in its damage compared to either of those. Possibly something like 10-20% less damage. Probably something on the order of double the crits and 50% more damage on crits compared to the Dex/Ego.
Dex/Ego will be rather nice for damage for someone who does an Ice build but Ice has a few key powers that depend on Endurance and PFF is once again real nice option for anyone who has a reason to go that route.
So the point here is that proper specialization can be a real difference and framework and energy builder consideration do play a major role.
YOU cannot be a complete generalist. If you have a melee energy builder and take Gun powers you will NOT be kiting. At best you go in and out. If you specialzie in Str/Con super stat you will NOT be as good a healer as a Presence/end specced toon, but you could certainly take a heal power but it will heal less and you will have less total energy to heal with. And if Dex/Ego lets you crit on heals then a melee toon that want to have heal sipport powers is simply better than the STR/Con route.
There will be some cookie cutte stuff going on. I guarantee you will see a lot of people with Regeneration. But there is more to the system than everyone can do everything or whatever.
But due to ranks/advantages and the way stats and framework interactions its more like you can be great at one thing and good at two things, or maybe pretty good at three things if you specialzie less.
Comments
The explanations are really lacking. Stats took a lot of effort to figure out. And how many people take how long to understand those "add this to a power", "works in certain circumstances" things that drop into your inventory? At least they use real numbers, which is something Emmert had specifically tried to avoid with early City of Heroes.
But to the OP's point, "everyone does everything" definitely is a problem and it was one of my big complaints against World of Warcraft (which I never liked), and Champions goes worlds beyond that.
Objectively they have this "you can be anything you want!" attitude and think it will lead to such unique and diverse characters. But in reality, just the opposite. OK, so I have:
a ranged Energy Blast,
a melee single sword,
an ice shield,
regeneration passive,
a force Crowd Control,
a spirit pet,
a force shield buff,
and an empathic heal.
Then I make another character with:
a ranged fire blast,
a melee claws attack,
an earth shield,
invulnerability passive,
a mystic crowd control,
a wolf pet,
a mind buff
and a telepathic heal.
Wow, how different!
Then I team up with a guy with a ranged archery attack, melee martial arts, personal force field passive, a ... oh wait, who am I kidding? Who ever teams long enough to even know what your teammates have?
It's a problem. Teaming up is about adding bodies, which always helps, but everyone does everything so it's not all that interesting. I can summon pets to take the alpha, or pop my shield and stroll in. I can hang back and buff/heal whoever's "the tank", or just be dps. Variety, right? Not really. When I'm soloing, sure that's fine because it lets me apply different methods in different situations. But it means all teams are the same, so it gets old fast. And worse, alts offer no alternative play - just different colors.
Yes I know you can build your stats a certain way, and use equipment that favors those chosen stats. But so I favored Strength, Constitution, and Presence, and you favored Endurance, Recovery, and Intelligence, and he kept everything even across the board. What's the real difference anyway, 5%? Maybe 10% tops?
I compare this to City of Heroes (not a perfect game, but the only one I've ever stuck with) where a Tank, Blaster, Controller have NOTHING in common. Where even within an Archetype the differences stand out. Playing an alt is a completely different experience, and teaming can change up the experience dramatically based on what archeytpes you have.
Maybe this will lure people in who think it encourages great diversity. But I suspect as they get to the end they'll all sense this sameness, and that it will hurt long-term play.
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1) I don't know what you're talking about. Most power sets have MORE powers than you can possibly take. I was munitions, and only did Munitions (outside of ONE regen which is Supernatural set) and there was still like 4-5 powers left in munitions I couldn't get.
2) Cookie Cutter means exactly the same. CO is the LEAST cookie cutter of ANY. There ARE reasons to take multiples of one attack. Every attack does something unique. I took two single target attacks. Why? One does a ton of damage at point blank range, and requires little energy. The other does the same damage but has DOUBLE the range and the ability to burst high amounts of damage if needed (although not energy sufficient.) Healing works the same way. There are MANY different ways to heal, which do different things, different extra effects, etc. There ARE plenty of reasons to take multiple heals, multiple AoE's, multiple melee attacks, etc.
I wanted to get both AOE's in Munitions. Why? Because SMG AoE has a large range, and more burst damage. But Shotgun knocked ppl down with less range. SMG's added bleeding DoT, but Shotguns could give a charged 100% knockdown. There is plenty of reasons to take BOTH of those in ADDITION to the Frag Grenade AoE, Rocket AoE, etc.
I cannot even begin to DESCRIBE how non-cookie cutter this is. If you want to be pure AoE, you can have almost ALL your powers be AoE- and you can choose the right effect for the right opponents. You'd kill. There is PLENTY of reasons to not take healing- especially if you have Regen 3 or Devices you can craft which heal you instantly.
3) I believe they should have MORE powers, and MORE power upgrades. I do agree with you that they should have more power upgrades and upgrade points. You get so few points though... you basically DO get fewer powers. Which makes it hard to see your complaint.
At level 40, you'll want all your powers to be rank 3 to give more damage to match your opponent's HP and Defense. This can't happen. You get A LOT more powers than you get advantages to upgrade them. You have to select which powers to spec in- which kindof makes a lot of other powers worthless. Which makes my earlier point a little weak, seeing as how you wouldn't be able to do much else if you wanted to spec in AoE. You'd have to get all AoE attacks to Rank 3- and their special, which would make every other power Rank 1, without a special ability. This wouldnt gimp you, but would make you purely were you focused your advantages (AoE).
This means that you could spec almost entirely in multiple single target attacks. Pump Rank 3 + Special in all of them, and still have AoE and Heals. But your AoE and Heals will suck compared to someone who spec'd in AoE and Heals. In fact, AoE would only be beneficial if you really did more damage (enough players there). But having Rank 1 doesn't hinder your ability, since they stack with your level.
4) The more I think about it... the more I like the currenct system. Limited number of advantages makes the other powers less useful. Everyone can have a hold, heal, AoE, defense, and single target attack- but EVERYONE will have a specialization. Clearly, no one with Rank 1 healing will be able to match the damage output of a Rank 3 AoE attack. Someone focused on Rank 3 attacks, might be stuck with Rank 1 defenses.
One Munitions character will have a maxed out Shotgun and Frag Grenade, with everything else Rank 2, give or take. This makes his primary attack shotgun- and everything else is good, but not great, and not weak either. This guy wants to do AoE effects and knockdowns.
The next munitions guy? He's a sniper (charged high damage single shots) and Assault Rifle (long ranged Single target damage).
The next? Close Combat Ranged Pistols and Pistol-Melee attacks. maybe even some close combat sword attacks.
Yet another? He has the shotgun, but that's it. The other powers focus is the Chainsaw arm, and a fire power to imitate molotov cocktails. He's the zombie killer!
This doesn't even include stats: which are vital to fulfilling your role. A healer with 3 different Rank 3 healing abilities + special + high Presence- will be a powerhouse healer compared to a DPS Robot Sorcerer with Rank 1 healing ability, high damage but very low Presence.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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They don't. There is an error somewhere in your testing.
The only stats the give a pure % damage boost are your focus stats you choose, and yes those give a boost to all powers regardless of framework.
This is silly. You can build cookie cutter heroes if you want to or you can build highly focused ones if you want. I really, really do not understand the "I want to be unique just like every other arms warrior out their" argument.
Sure you have 14 powers but you do not have enough advantage points to fully rank up each one. So if you want to maximize DPS then you're going to fully rank and Energy Form--which is a passive and you can only have one of those active at a time so no Force Field or Regen going--several of your attacks, a temp Energy Form--which is an active power that stacks with you regular Energy Form--and maybe a control and an active defense if you can afford it.
If you want to make a tank you're going to do the opposite. Rank up a passive defense, at least one active defense, maybe two or three, and some of your attacks.
if you want to make a character in the middle you'll do some of each, but you will not be as good at either.
What you are really complaining about is that well rounded characters are the most popular and no one is being forced to make builds that favor DPS, Tanking, or Support. I consider that a very good thing.
i hit the wall so many times in games being stuck in a role that couldnt be flexable and get the job done that i quit those games sometimes shortly after loading the game up and paying 50 bucks
your prob seeing alot of ppl like me who are drawn to this game like me in hearing you can make your toon how you like and get over those barriers other games told us were "content"
its only been beta so far and were just having fun so why go and chat away saying words like "cookiecutter" when it all get wiped tonite anyway
go make your epic whatever makes you feel secure toon for your raid guild and enjoy
im only playing CO for the freedom reason and im tired to death of fantasy dwarves elves etc....its so whored out there is no way anyone can sell me them romantic ideas.. id rather read a old dragonlance book again lol
Not exactly true on what to choose. There are a few concerns of primary importance.
One is what is your means of getting energy. If you have a melee energy builder, you will have to be able to close distance.
Another concern is what are the skills you want enhanced by. Personal forcefield is enhanced by Ego and Endurance. Many heals are enhanced by presence.
So if you go Ego/Dex for a lot of extra critical damage then PFF isa good choice and Invulnerability being STR/Con based not so much.
If you are melee then Str gives a bonus to damage that stacks with the Superstats. But if you are ranged Dex/ego will be best for maximum damage. On the other hand Enudrance helps some sets with damage since they need large amount of energy to hit hard on the maintain abilities.
So if you are melee you may go STR/Con and take invuln or you might go Dex/Ego and take PFF. This might wind up with similar damage through different means. But some Marital arts abilities utilize crits either triggering off of them or doing extra damage on them, which adds in another consideration.
In one sense framework does not matter in the long run (ie. you only get powers quicker) but some things run in a framework as well. Telekenesis like Endurance for its damage, I think telepathy likes Ego for its damage. Pets are enhanced by Int and presence. Some offensive passives only affects attack from the framework. For example there is a munitions one that triggers on Crits and only on Munitions abilities.
The difference in damage between two melee build that took Invulnerability where one took STR/CON and the other took Dex/Ego may be very little but the difference in defenses will be very noticable. Similarly a melee toon that takes something like End/Recovery will see a noticeable decrease in its damage compared to either of those. Possibly something like 10-20% less damage. Probably something on the order of double the crits and 50% more damage on crits compared to the Dex/Ego.
Dex/Ego will be rather nice for damage for someone who does an Ice build but Ice has a few key powers that depend on Endurance and PFF is once again real nice option for anyone who has a reason to go that route.
So the point here is that proper specialization can be a real difference and framework and energy builder consideration do play a major role.
YOU cannot be a complete generalist. If you have a melee energy builder and take Gun powers you will NOT be kiting. At best you go in and out. If you specialzie in Str/Con super stat you will NOT be as good a healer as a Presence/end specced toon, but you could certainly take a heal power but it will heal less and you will have less total energy to heal with. And if Dex/Ego lets you crit on heals then a melee toon that want to have heal sipport powers is simply better than the STR/Con route.
There will be some cookie cutte stuff going on. I guarantee you will see a lot of people with Regeneration. But there is more to the system than everyone can do everything or whatever.
But due to ranks/advantages and the way stats and framework interactions its more like you can be great at one thing and good at two things, or maybe pretty good at three things if you specialzie less.