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Hey developers, can you please stop making Everquest clones?
-Zeno-
Member CommonPosts: 1,298
World of Warcraft, DAoC, Warhammer, Aion, AC, RoM, AoC. All the games lately have strong elements that were created in Everquest. Clone after clone after clone after clone has been released to the gaming community.
Currently there are only 3 games on the market, and one in development, that try to break this EQ trend. Ultama Online(13 years old), EVE Online(6 years old) and Darkfall(just released) are the only live games right now that break the EQ trend, one came before EQ. Mortal Online is upcoming.
There are dozens and dozens of EQ clones in the works compaired to development teams that are trying to break the EQ trend.
When will this madness stop?
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Comments
Actually, EQ was nothing more than a graphical upgrade to the text based MUDS and DIKUS that preceded it.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You forgot FFXI on the list of games that doesnt have the EQ Interface... if thats what your gawking at.
I have cleaned up this thread by deleting some flaming and baiting replies from it. For those that want to add, stay constructive with your comments. I do not want to lock this thread, but if the baiting and personal attacks continue I will.
MMORPG.com Staff
Derek Gordon
Trouble is, when developers have tried something different (e.g. pre CU SWG and SOR to some extent did away with linear levelling and so on and perhaps EVE although that took some mighty persistance from the developer/publisher), the game has flopped, or has been perceived as a flop (unjustly IMO as both the former aforementioned games were excellent for me). Therefore I don't think its up to the developers, its more up to the consumer.
Right. So PvP based games are clones of EQ?
Hey developers, can you please stop making Wolfenstein 3D clones!!!!!!
Good evening, kind chap.
I have written this dribble drabble of my kind honest post to bring up a funny teeny fact, pen and pencil rp was the orgin of the concepts and ideas used in MUDS, although you kind sir are correct about MUDS being a prequal to games such as EQ, just don't forget what MUDS were based off.
Now good night fine sir, and remember to watch where you walk, wouldn't want ya fallin down any flights of stairs.
DerekGordon, your influence is amazing. You should moderate the ToR boards. : )
It's not that the games are similar to EverQuest which they aren't and you would know this if you ever played it, it's that they are worse than EverQuest.
Online games have actually devolved instead of evolving which is pretty sad.
Actually if you wanna be even further to the point, pen/paper rpgs were based off of other tabletop games (I seem to remember hearing about one of the original D&D creators trying it as an alternative way to play with one of his war gaming groups). But that's beside the point.
The reasons most games are a variation on the Everquest theme are simple.
1) They did it right. Everquest was great. It had the classes people knew, gameplay mechanics that they could understand. It introduced them to a whole new world of lore and adventure. Not only that, but it was one of the first MMOs to really be that immersive. It was 3D, so the world felt more real than games like UO. You actually saw the world through your character's eyes, looking around with the camera to see what was around you. It was a milestone as the first really "real" immersive game where you weren't just playing by yourself, you were playing with a whole community of other people (Cazic-Thule server represent!)
2) It was popular. They had more subscriptions than anyone else, and they had practically the whole community. If you were playing an MMO, you were playing Everquest. It was so synonymous that people didn't really talk about the genre as it was, they simply played EQ. Go watch that movie "The New Guy" with DJ Qualls from 2002 (2 years before WoW), where the one guy is always talking about EQ and wearing a Kunark t-shirt and so forth. For it's prime it hovered around 350k-450k subscriptions, which was unthinkable at the time. It was crazy popular, and it was only in the North American market mind you. Heck even 350k subs is profitable these days up against the giants. Back in 2000 it was the king, simple enough.
3) It's safe. Since EQ was clearly a popular formula, people are more likely to follow it because they know it works. EQ had also done a lot of the groundwork that doesn't need to be done now. Things like bind points, and server transfers, and name changing. Quest dialogues and loot drops and epic quests and death penalties, and so on and so forth. Heck most of the terminology in MMOs (indeed, even the term MMORPG) came out of everquest. Tanks, CC, Ninja Looters, PKers, Raids, DKP, Trains, etc etc. People hadn't even come up with names for those kinda situations until EQ was around. They came up with the formula to know what was right and what was wrong, and made it easier for other companies to put forth their own games.
Let's face it. Everquest was an icon in our genre. Without it, the genre wouldn't be where it is today. We get EQ clones because a lot of what people do has to be built on the shoulders of what has already come to pass.
I'm not saying we should just have EQ clones, but the next generation always has to know who it's daddy was.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
It's going to take a while for them to get the hint. Blizzard got lucky with their Everquest ripoff, which encouraged every two-bit developer to try their hand at making one too (sadly, copying the copy more than they copied the original). If we're lucky, the market will become oversaturated with these knockoffs, s[reading the subscription numbers thinner, and we'll see more impressive numbers from the games that try something different. Unfortunately, they'll probably still just copy whichever game is on top.
Any game with a leveling system, questing system, mass group system (ie: Raid), is a clone of EQ. I did not say PvP anywhere, I just listed the games that try not to be EQ clones.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
The next generation is calling everthing "WoW Clones" when the games are not WoW clones, they are EQ clones just like WoW is.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
EQ game model.
When people say EQ clone (or wow clone) this is what I think of. Not the graphics. Not the interface. Just the game mechanics. It can be done in a text based game. It can be done in an isometric view game. It can be done in a first person 3d game.
We see this game model pop up time and time again because it works, it is simple, and is percieved to make more sense than other systems to players. Sometimes developers try to be more flexible and sometimes more rigid but this is certainly a popular model.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Any game with a leveling system, questing system, mass group system (ie: Raid), is a clone of EQ. I did not say PvP anywhere, I just listed the games that try not to be EQ clones.
That ignores many of the fundamental concepts that makes EQ EQ. Like equipment based character development and set character roles.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Isn't it pretty easy to say that devs will stop making "EQ Clones" (Although I greatly disagree with the OP's idea of what constitutes a game being an EQ clone) when they are no longer popular and profitable? Why can't you just let the people that want to play these games play them, and you play something else?
Well, EQ was kinda a copy from Meridian 59. Wow and the others have some stuff from Lineage (and Diablo for that matter).
Guildwars should also be mentioned, it is not a EQ clone.
But I wouldn't mind if they actually made a good EQ clone. EQ was a lot more fun.
There are other upcomming games trying to break out of the same old, like World of darkness online, TOR and Guildwars 2. Sooner or later will another kind of game come up and most devs will copy it instead. The probelem really is that Wow made so much money that all companies tried to make their own version and hoped they would make as much money too.
I agree. I have always hated EQ. I felt that Asheron's Call was a much superior game, and wish that MMOs had progressed using it as the standard. Of course then Turbine shot itself in the foot by making AC2 almost an EQ clone in itself and ignoring nearly everything that made AC1 great.
That said though SWG was the closest thing to AC, before the NGE, and even though it has a lot of jaded vets that are loyal to it's memory, it wasn't a great success.
The AC formula more closely resembled PnP games because it gave you the freedom to choose which skills you wanted, and how you wanted to spend the experience you gained on those skills. Problem was it was easy for people to handicap themselves if they didn't know what they were doing and didn't plan their character out in advance.
Once AAA MMOs stop trying to unseat WoW and please everyone maybe we'll see more games that step outside of the cookiecutter 'class' system.
No, before you even say it, CO is not that game. It is just a good concept poorly executed.
This.
Sorry no, its the only way to get funding for a large MMO 'cause of WoW.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Yes, what loke666said... Everquest was a CLONE of Meridian 59. OP, exactly how are the games you stated "clones" of Everquest in the first place? I played all of them you listed, so tell me how that's so.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Diablo clones IMO.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Something completely new and different would be nice. Not necessarily the theme, but game mechanics. But the problem revolves around the incredible risk involved in making such a game. A gaming company requires funding from outside sources in most situations and these potential investors are not too keen on the idea of a huge money risk, especially with the market the way it is right now. If they are investing one million dollars, they want a business model that has a high potential of return on investment. Therefore, they are more likely to invest in a game with a proven history. Making a game that has never been attempted before generally does not yield such a business model. Hence, why it is called high risk.
Eventually, someone will accomplish this endeavor, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.
When a new game comes out that sets a new standard, it becomes the new baseline. WOW is the current baseline. EQ ceased being influencial the day WOW released. When a new MMO comes along that makes WOW seem ancient it will become the new standard.
Basically, new MMOs don't resemble EQ. They resmble WOW. Thats life. You don't play a new FPS and go, damn thats a DOOM clone. You'll think HL or COD or Halo. They set certain standards other FPSs have to reach. You don't play a new RTS and think, damn a Dune clone. Get it?
I think the whole "Blah, blah is a blah blah clone!" is retarded to begin with=) Thats besides the point.
Everything is a clone of everything, it's getting old hearing people say such things. But while WoW did take tons of ideas from EQ1 when it first came out, it has expanded on the EQ1's ideas and created lots of their own. A lot of the games these days are following WoW rather than EQ1. I would say there are more games that are not EQ1 clones than there are EQ1 clones. To a point that people have been waiting for the next upgraded EQ1 and haven't been able to find one. I actually want to see some true EQ1-clones done right, because I haven't found one yet....which is probably why after trying out all the games, I'm back playing EQ1 now lol.
I'm also not sure why you would list WAR, it's nothing like EQ. The problem for developers is that when they try something new, they chance at the gamers not liking it. So it's up to the investors to decide whether they want to take the risk and fund something different. Games cost more and more to make, therefor when an idea fails, it's a lot more costly these days than back when you could create a MMO with $5-10mil.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Sir, I think you may be confused. This may confuse you as well as I will try to explain it to you. I think these mmo's are WoW clones. Yes, Wow is a very dumbed down version of Everquest. What do you judge a tree by? It's fruits. We can judge the mmo (clones) by their fruits as well. I would suggest to change Everquest to World of Warcraft. Now, you may think well they are both sand box games and nothing is really different when standing at a far away view point. Let me put it in perspective for you.
I am going to name three aspects that each game has but are the opposite side of the spectrum.
Community: For those who have played both, EQ and WoW, they understand and could agree that EQ had the better community. Why? We can spend all day on this but one main reason is forced grouping. 90% of that game you had to be in a group or a raid to progress any where. From this stature, this implements a good community because it weeds out bad players. They only take you if you are respectful. polite and know what you're doing; most guilds anyways.
As for Wow, you know that it's all solo play till end game so the community suffers bad. In Wow, it's all about you and you only. In Eq, it was about you and the guild. Whereas most of the time in EQ you was recognized by your guild not your self. Also another aspect I should mention is that WOW has brought many players to this genre that would of never played EQ or DoAc or UO before. Most of these millions of players can't comprehend what old school mmo gaming is and some of then don't even characterize with this genre well. Before, WoW, the mmo genre was housed in it's own niche.
So in regards to the community, most newer mmo games have horrid communities. If these mmo where truly EQ clones, it would focus more on grouping, team play and the community would be in fantasic.
Classes: I have played many mmos, and so far, the class system in EQ was by far the most diverse and you felt the immersion from those classes. Not to say that some mmos now don't do that. Most class based mmos, are mutating the archetype. What I mean by this, is simply, everyone class can "dps" even if you're a tank or a healer. I have been told that Warhammer actually did a fine job keeping a true archetype as well as Vanguard.
Also, the "spec'in" has also gone along way with new mmos as well to give the illusion that you have a choice which illustrates more restrictions down to a minute form of a "playstyle". AoC had feats, which were similar to the talent system in wow. One could also, argue that the talents is an off shoot of EQ"s AA system.
In regards to the classes, if these new mmo's where truly EQ clones, you would have a specific role for each class that complements other classes to form diverse groups. You don't really see that anymore.
Challenge: Here, I may get flammed because I will say EQ is more challenging then WoW. Anyways, EQ was challenging in different avanues that you don't see too much of in today's new mmos. For example, long camp times with place holders for named mobs. Because of the long duration to get a drop doesn't make it hard, it just makes it tedious. What makes it a challenge is, competition. Competition with other players and guilds. There where no raid or dungeon instances in EQ so if you wanted to get stuff done you had to be organized and ready. (Yes the ldon's where instances but that came way later).
This is probably the strongest retort for the challenge aspect, is in groups and raids you had to be on sequence and be on your toes all of the time for each class. For an example, the Rathe Counsil in Plane of Earth-B. If your enchanters, via cc, went down, it was a wipe. Each class had to perform their role percisely to excel. In Wow, one will argue that raiding has changed because you can interact and each raids feels like a different encounter. Very true, however, most raids are linear and everyone follows the same strat.
So in regards to challenge, if these mmos where truly EQ clones grouping, raiding and penalities (which I forgot to mention) would be very strong. It's not a stroll in the park. Again, I suggest that you change it to WOW clones, not EQ clones.
This post here, shows you the different fruits of EQ and WoW eventhough they are a themepark game. In short, if all new mmo games where EQ clones, you would see better community, better class design with true archetype balance as well as a challenge.