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A problem with End Game implementation in World of Warcraft.
Dafong
Member Posts: 224
I say 'A' problem because clearly there are many problems and some people will feel others should have an airing. This thread is about a problem that I see in World of Warcraft end game raiding. Progression. Or a lack thereof. There is no need to clear Onyxia or Molten Core to gain the equipment to beat the next dungeon. There is no need to clear Karazhan to get to Naxx.
This leaves everyone wearing exactly the same equipment all the time. Since everyone is at the same dungeon at the same time. Doesn't matter if you create a guild this afternoon and fill it with players that only just reached max level yesterday. They will still be clearing the same dungeons as the highest end guild in the game. They might struggle a little more but it won't be enough to stop them doing it.
This means end game content is devoured in mere weeks. Despite there being months worth of content in existence.
This is solely down to Blizzard's ethos of equality to all players. Since all players must be able to get the same level of gear and do the same thing at all levels there can never be a gap between players that isn't miniscule. Players that ding max level this afternoon have barely less HP, Str, Dex, Agi, Sta, Int and Wis then players that have been max level for weeks on end. So they are able to clear the same content with only a slightly harder time.
Since they are so close, there is no need to clear content that existed before.
I can give you a perfect example. I left the game when TBC came out and I returned to play again when WoTLK came out. I have never cleared some of the dungeons in TBC. There was never any need and there was never anyone doing them (other then for achievements and fun).
To contrast that, a guild I created in Everquest had to clear a place called NToV because it geared us up for the next set of dungeons that we wanted to complete, that we couldn't complete because we just didn't have the stats to fight in those dungeons. It gave my guild something to do for weeks while other stronger and older guilds cleared higher end dungeons. it seperated out the players into different groups and people actually looked different.
In EQ you could see someone from a distance and recognise them as individuals. In WoW you can recognise a class, Warrior, Hunter etc but individuals are almost impossible to distinguish.
I played EQ and WoW for equal amounts of time. I still miss EQ. I never miss WoW.
This is because my character has no meaning in WoW, it isn't an individual I have built up over years of play time. It is a clone of a thousand other robots running around a game world which I have no emotional attachment to. I still miss my Monk in Everquest, I still think back to him occasionally and I miss running around with him. When I restarted playing World of Warcraft, I re-created another character because I cared so little about my original character.
Comments
Do you have a proposed solution?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
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Altough your point is valid.
It wasnt always like that. Recent easier aquisition of items/gear has led to this 'WoW shortcut approach'
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
He wants to go back to Vanilla WOW and separate the men (and Orcs) from the boyz.
Blizzard doesn't want elite players feeling special, they want hordes of casual players feeling equal and believing the game is "fair" and of course, paying boatloads of monthly subscription fees.
Looks like their strategy is working flawlessly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So.. high-end WoW raiding is too easy and it sucks that previous raid instances are obsolete.
I don't think many people would disagree; what's yer point?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I am supposed to propose some new life philosophy for everyone?
As to a solution, well that would be quite easy. Make it impossible to complete one dungeon without a raid wearing the gear from a previous dungeon.
hardly rocket science, I didn't write it out as I figured it would be so obvious that people would automatically see it. If the problem is that you can skip over dungeons, clearly the fix is to make sure that isn't possible?
Don't ask me, you were the one that felt compelled to make a 30+ line post about something that could be concisely expressed in about two.
As for expecting people to clear MC before being eligible to do 25 man level 80 raid instances; that would only be viable if MC was also revamped into a 25 man level 80 raid instance.
I'll assume that was your intention, given that the alternative (expecting a freshly dinged level 80 to run a 40 man level 60 raid instance) would be ridiculous.
The solution is far more simple; just make the high end raids harder so that raiders need to pass the gear-check from the previous instance.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Blizzard used the "gear gating" system in vanilla WoW and it failed.
Thats the reason why only 1% of the population made progress in old Naxx.
Forcing people to get gear from this raid to be allowed to do that raid and needing gear from that raid to do the next raid is a relic of the past, the only place it has in modern MMOs is in a museum.
There were a miriad of features (and lack of features) that made EQ a unique epic experience, not only what you mention. Just saying.
This is a very interesting statement. You are saying that you are clearing a dungeon only if it needs to be cleared. And I have a feeling from your words that for you clearing a dungeon just for fun is just a waste of time. Very interesting...and I thought that people were playing WOW for fun.
Apparently people are playing WOW for the same reason as they are buying expensive houses, cars, going on expensive holidays, making brilliant careers: not because they would enjoy doing these things but because they can brag about it.
So you are spending endless hours in WOW, not having fun but hard working so you get done what's needed to be done so that one day you would become an elite player. Then you would go to Stormwind and hang around and everybody would recognize from distance that you are an elite player and they would envy you. And at that moment all the long hard working hours would be payed off.
You are complaining that because everybody has the same gear there are no individual characters in WOW. Hey WOW is a MMORPG and MMORPG's should be about social interaction. It would be like saying that if in real life everybody would have the same car then everybody would be the same, there would be no individuals. The gear or the dungeons cleared don't make a character in a MMORPG. You are making your your character an individual with your style of playing, with your interaction with other players, with your behavior in the game.
Players like you, and sadly most players are like you, are changing or have already changed WOW from a MMORPG into a simple multiplayer arcade fighting game with a lot of grinding.
TBC killed WoW. That is well known.
Vanilla WoW actually had people in different teirs of gear, and even if you were wearing AQ40 gear you still respected the guys getting their MC gear because you knoew the pangs of learning and defeating those encounters.
The everyone is the same no matter what WoW takes now is driving away their fans that seek anything resembeling a challenge. If 2007-2009 hadnt been full of fail MMO's WoW wouldnt have continued to grow.
Why is it that whenever anyone talks about 'fun' it is only THEIR version of 'fun' that is valid?
So race drivers competing to be first don't have any fun? Atheletes don't have any fun? No sports players have fun?
Your version of fun is not the only fun to be had, and it isn't better then anyone elses fun either.
I would put it like this.
Do you think the footballer in the 3rd division of english football is having any LESS fun then the footballer in the 1st division?
So how come when you ask for tiers in an MMORPG all of a sudden you are spoiling social interaction, ruining the game and taking out the fun?
I hear you on that *sigh*. I remember how much fun randomly joining a group on a run around just slaughtering groups of mobs to eventually become good friends, people to hang out with in a virtual world. But hey, you can't entirely blame them, blame big corporation too for exploiting this type of game design.
I know someone did point out how small a population it was pre-TBC that actually went beyond MC and this along with the attitudes pointed out in terms of people trying to be "elite" and "above the rest" had torn guilds apart left and right in countless ways not seen anymore today. Anyone ever remember (I'm sure this has happened across many servers) having to gear that 1 main tank for MC (which took an entire guild) and when he finally got geared, he up and left to join a "better guild". Constantly blaming Priests for ALL raid wipes. Yet alone most 40 man raids were improperly lead by 1 player without sufficient leadership support. I'm sure there's more, but these things have been quickly solved by Blizzard by making WoW much much easier, some might argue too easy, on the expansions that followed.
However, when has MMORPG's been all about being the top dawg for 90% of the population? When have we lost the sense of community (that previous MMOs had) where everyone played nicely (at least semi-nicely) together rather than stampede all over each other to get to the top? I think it all changed when WoW was released and the trend seems to just continue. I think the very implementation of End-game has destroyed a good portion of what MMO's were about. The quote sums it up very well.
Yes, I can see it might be an issue to play a game that actually ended...
Adding more content is only prolonging the dying period.
When did mmorpg's become the place for people that can not stand out in real life to try and stand out in a virtual life? "I want to be more special than the other guys." Then you go pout in the corner?
WoW idea works because the majority of people are secure in their real lifes that they do not need to come to a virtual world to be "special". They come to play and feel like they accomplished something while playing. That is what WoW provides to people, especially those that do not have hours upon hours of time to play. You can log in and get some gear in about 1-2 hours that will progress your character. That is victory and fun to a lot of people. "Hardcores" can go back to the dying model of games because frankly there are not enough of you to support a top rated game in this market with the money and investment that goes into making a top rated game.
The day of the hardcore is dead...long live the casual.
That is what RPGs are?
If you don't like progression, go play FPS games. Go play Counte-strike or Quake where everyone is the same and no one ever changes.
The whole point of RPGs and this includes MMORPGs is that when you play, you grow and you progress. How can you do that, and then complain that other people are growing and this somehow upsets you?
Not everyone will grow at the same rate and instead of crying about that because you can't keep up, why not just enjoy your game and let other people with more time on their hands grow at the speed they want. The whole point of having different tiers is so that EVERYONE gets to raid, but instead of everyone raiding some homogeneous dungeon and everyone looking alike, instead you have 'periods' which players levelling at the same speed can enjoy.
The problem with the last few posters is their heads are so far up their own backsides as to what they think is right, they are so busy putting down anyone that has more time on their hands that they seem to have completely forgotten what an RPG is.
Well, if more people on your own thread tend to disagree with you and if this is the best argument you can come up with to why people think in a particular way, then, why did you even start this thread in the first place? I feel baited, guess I'll better spend my time trying to have a real conversation about pertinent topics. Maybe this'll be the last time I'll give you any benefit of the doubt, your lack of comprehension (or memory) and understanding of other's opinions are not worth my time (or probably anyone else that wants to try and disagree with him). It seems like you're just looking for people to berate about how "wrong" they are when its all opinion.
WoW end game raiding is still very much gear dependent, you dont go with 25 newly dinged 80 to do ulduar, and definently not any hardmodes, Totc normal modes are fairly easy or atleast on par with some of the easier bosses in ulduar, cant speak for what the harmodes will bring in there.
I dont really see what peoples problems are with WoW endgame, people say vanilla endgame is better then Wotlk and that blizzard only makes the game worse and more casual friendly, some of the hardmodes in there would disagree, if you so badly want a game that forces people to do it the hard way or the highway then i would call you a bully.
Which means that you basically want to deny people that chance of doing things just because they might not have the time at the side of their IRL life, or they might not be as good yet. Cant even imagine being totally green at WoW and would have had to go bang my head on Yogg saron +0, would prolly have killed myself and my blue gear somewhere around 2 millions wipes.
WoW evolves and changes in every expansion and sometimes quite alot in the major content patches aswell, sometimes its for the better and sometimes its for the worse but its still the change IMO that makes people still stick to it since its not the same game as it was when it released.
WoW has by far the best ,most challenging and most competetive PVE endgame content of all MMO's out there, old and new. I might have missed 1 but doubt it. I dont think it was in Blizzards plan to fix live raids and to make the raiding community what it is today with hundreds if not thousands of sites totally dedicated to raiding endgame content.
Like who would really want to go thought the trouble of getting teir 1-2-3-4-5 etc before getting the highest teir and being able to go for the latest hardmodes? Thats just stupid and bad buisness from and company who would use a system like this. That would be like saying that now that we have reached teir 10 we will disable to option for people to make new characters since it will be pointless since people wont gear them up in the right order so please stop paying for our game. Blizzard has done the best choices buisness wise and id say that the overwhelming number of players who still play despite the millions of post claiming that WoW only goes downhill since TBC came are prolly missing a braincell or 2, if you dont like it just keep quiet and go play another high end competetive PVE game if you can find one.
Im not a fanboy or anything i try all the games that come out since ive played WoW for 5 years now something new would be nice but no company seems to have the money or the will or the brains or whatever they are missing to be able to make a game that has as competative PVE and PVP as WoW. Im just looking at the simple facts, WoW dosent have the best of much except PVE as far as im concerned but they offer alittle bit of everything (with pretty high standards nonetheless) which is something i havent found in any game yet and which is prolly why no game keeps that many subs for any extended periods.
Playing: CO, C&C and WoW.
Played: Tabula Rasa, AoC, War, Aion.
Regret Playing: Hellgate: London, EVE.
jairoe03 you are in the wrong here you refuse to look at his perfectly valid points counter them properly
(he gave a proper definition you didnt and you didnt attempt to prove him wrong)
untill you can do that your points are invalid
So, you tell me that my points are "invalid" by not even providing any "valid" points. You sound like a hypocrite and how do we define "valid"? An opinion is an opinion and I stated mine and it isn't any more or less of an opinion than his. I'm merely pointing out the lack of argument in his posts (and I agreed with another poster with what he saying that his points are along the same lines as me so I shouldn't have to repeat whats there).
BTW I think if you actually even read this thread, he didn't even have an original intention in his OP for the thread to begin with, just full of statements that most people already know. I'm pointing out how he is also just attacking dissenters in his post without really countering any points stated by them. I think of all people to deem anything valid, the last person would be you based on the brevity of your post and lack of thought. Then, again I'm a sucker and fell for it again. I don't know why I respond to unintelligence.
You insult people to the point where no one can be bothered to engage with you, then claim this as a victory.
Well done. /slow clap
I don't believe the root cause here is Blizzard's stance in equality, but the implementation of raiding as an end game. I *like* raiding, but I despise raiding as the single point of an end game. The concept is flawed in so many different forms, not the least of which is the time factor of organizing a large amount of people over the internet. Why make everyone go through such as hassle to do required content for advancement?
I'd more prefer a mmo dedicated to small and medium sized dungeons with some highly challenging raids (for those who like them on occasion) with non-gear rewards. Perhaps lots of extra game currency, rare specialized player housing or guild halls, guild only buffs for pvp, worthwhile faction bonuses, etc. Instead of forcing all your players to raids for gear, use a more diablo 2-esque method for getting gear from the small and mid dungeons, and let people raid for elite *status* and perks.
Throw that kind of a themepark system into a great sandbox environment and you've got a game full of win. Well, at least to me.
You're completely forgetting the fact that people are generally competitive. Not everyone is competitive (as you clearly illustrate), but many are. Making a game "socialist" is bound to have detrimental effects to a large portion of the playerbase. It's funny because when you look at it in the WoW context, you see that Blizzard has never been able to achieve a middle ground. They refuse to give up on raiding as an end game and are left with two black and white options. Either hyper elite competitive (vanilla wow), or socialist "everyone can do everything with little effort". Middle ground is what keeps the masses, and it's an area that WoW has completely failed in.
Note - do not take my use of "socialist" as any kind of a political motivator. It is only used in the context of extreme equality.
I think you're onto something here. You're right. WoW's end-game raiding is all about gear. Sure they have some side mission arcs you can do to get special mounts, but it's mainly all about gear. Which is doubly bad for me since I think WoW's armor sets get more and more stupid looking with each tier. But that's another topic...
Having rewards other than only gear for raiding would make it much more appealing and I think people wouldn't get bored as quickly. Or at least they would have more reasons to raid.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Dafong is what we call a troll. He is a bad one. He wants to be uber in WoW because he is pointedly pathetic in real life, and he feels like raid progression is the way to prove to himself that he has worth. He does not understand that it proves the opposite. He is baiting you because now that he can no longer flex his pixel epeen in WoW because Blizzard is making things easier, he is coming here to flex it for us.
I do not like that Blizzard is making things so much easier, but I never liked WoW in the first place. I deeply enjoyed the Warcraft RTS games and WoW when it came out, but no longer. However, I dislike WoW for very different reasons from Dafong and I think he is an Elitist Jerk. I think here is even a website where he would fit in more. Perhaps he should go there.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?