After reading the article myself, I don't see how Aion has the sandbox elements that the article describes. The author is talking about the difference between main quests and side quests, claiming that side quests possess some sort of sandbox element. I don't think I can agree to that. You could have a game in theory full of side quests, in other words, quests without some sort of progression towards a main PvE goal and still not have a proper sandbox "experience". Daily repeatable quests come to mind, I don't think that somebody can argue that they contribute to the sandbox experience of a game.
On the other hand, if said quests appear (or disappear) through a more dynamic element (perhaps due to a player's action, like overhunting in a certain area), then these quests could contribute to the sandbox experience. I don't think that Aion possesses such kind of quests (from my very limited exposure).
I think the author was trying to describe an experience similar to what Oblivion (single player rpg) was giving. In other words, a main quest plot that contributed to the main story, but also enough content outside the main quest, that a player could theoretically ignore the main story indefinitely and do his own thing. Under this light, one can argue that a lot of games possess "sandbox elements". Unfortunately, while it is ok for single player games to diversify in this way from the main plot, most MMOs become very thin games once you strip them from their linear main story driven line. What's left for the vast majority is mob grind, and I don't think that one can argue that at this point in MMO evolution mob grind can be considered a sandbox experience. From my limited exposure to Aion, in the PvE side of things there isn't much one can do once you stip the game from the main linear quest and the mob grinding. Bottom line, Aion PvE has very little (to none) PvE sandbox elements.
PvP is another beast though and it's there where the expectations for a sandbox experience in Aion reside. The world conflicts always had more uncertainty than the more structured battlegrounds or arena grounds. In this regard, yes, Aion can potentially possess a lot of sandbox elements (there is still no total freedom, like the ability to build some permanent fortifications from scratch for example). That's the main reason people are more exciting talking about PvP than PvE as far as Aion is concerned, even if both those two elements (especially with patch 1.5) are equally strong.
Regardless of our definition of sandbox, I think we all agree AION isn't a sandbox, the reviewer is either well paid or retarded.
If you actually read the article, he is saying that Aion has sandbox elements. Not that it is sandbox. I acutally like a more linear game anyway. It really makes you feel like your toon is connected to the game. Were as in WOW its all about haow many alts you have have because you can't raid tonight :P
It doesnt matter what MMOs u play m8 u will always to the same thing with 2nd char then 3rd char and so forth.
That is very often true of the DikuMUD-styled MMOs, but not of all MMOs.
One of the distinct benefits of sandbox design in an MMO is that each character can have a unique history - no two characters follow the same path unless you really make a concerted effort to do so. More importantly, each community and each server develops a unique history, as well.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Where do you get these wing ding correspondents? I mean come on, Aion is about as far from a sandbox as fire is to water.
Dear Mr Stiles, sandbox games do not have classes and levels. Aion does. Next time look up the definition of a sandbox before you make yourself look silly discussing nonsense. Aion is a well done theme park. Let's leave it at that.
I agree with you on your points that Aion is a well made theme park and that the correspondent doesn't seem too familiar with the topic he is discussing, but I'm not sure about that level/sandbox point.
Shadowbane had levels, yet it was very sandbox focused in its design. Whether the presence of levels and levelling was a positive feature or a detraction from core gameplay is another story entirely.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Aion is about as theme parked as an mmo can get. The idea of it mixing the best of theme park and sandbox is laughable since there is nothing remotely sand box about it.
The only thing I can say for now is that ncsoft is one of the few companies that added bunch of dungeons,quests in a patch when it's about to get out in NA and EU.
I wouldn't be surprised if they added more content from patches if they find it necessary instead of always waiting for an expansion like most games do.
Looks like most people just read the title, without looking at all at the article itself.
In the article he mentions sandbox elements. He doesn't claim that Aion is sandbox. Whether one agrees or not of the game has sandbox elements is open to interpretation, but the title alone does not do justice to the article.
Originally posted by Xasapis Looks like most people just read the title, without looking at all at the article itself. In the article he mentions sandbox elements. He doesn't claim that Aion is sandbox. Whether one agrees or not of the game has sandbox elements is open to interpretation, but the title alone does not do justice to the article.
We did read the article but you can't blame us for author's inability to understand the difference between game design and game feature/content.
Also, I would be very much interested in what a 'sandbox element' is supposed to be. Sandbox is a game design and as such, any part of it alone is meaningless. What 'element' he talks about is a mystery to me...
While the author lists some of the reasons why the leveling in Aion may be actually enjoyable (at least for the first playthrough) I dont think these things are sandbox elements.
If there is any kind of sandboxing in Aion it'll be in Abyss.
I stand corrected you can have levels in a sandbox game and not detract from it's sandbox qualities, but you most certainly can't have classes, they restrict your ability to develop your avatar the way you want to.
Sandbox games are generally highly dependent on a crafting system to provide everything in the game, Aion's crafting is an afterthought at best.
Even associating the word sandbox with Aion is absurd, but this is a forum and I guess even wacky ideas have to be discussed.
I understand what the author is saying, I don't know if it is correct, because I haven't played Aion.
But what I think he means is that you have more freedom to explore and quest or grind than in other mmo's.
I can give a similar example :
DAoC is not a sandbox, but the RvR in DAoC is more sandboxy than the RvR Campaign in WAR.
In DAoC you had the choice to attack / claim any keep, or pass them all up and go straight for the Relic keep and take the Relic. Or only take enough keeps to open up Darkness Falls. If you took the Relic and placed it into your own relic keep it would stay there until an enemy realm took it back. This could be hours, weeks, months or even years.
Point is, the choice was yours, the world was open ( not instanced ) and there was no magical timer to reset the relic back to another realm.
Now in WAR everything is alot more on rails. You have to take a certain amount of keeps, you need your part of PVE or Instanced PVP, you need 2 of 3 forts ( which are capped in numbers for the defenders ), then you have to win a couple of instances, and then you can get into the city. If you conquer the city, you will automatically get booted after a while.
The whole campaign is on rails, there is little choice and alot of instancing, the RvR areas are small too, so small gangs always run into zergs.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that DAoC felt more "sandboxy" than WAR because you had more freedom to chose your path.
And perhaps this can be said as well about Aion vs WoW ...
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I have to disagree with the definition of 'sandbox' as it is used here in this article. The whole idea of leveling in Aion requires one to reach a certain experience level and move on... whether it involves the campaign or side quests. This, to me, is not the definition of a sandbox. Unlike EvE Online, where one can stay in the High Security Areas for as long as one wishes and still accomplish something; in Aion, one has absolutely no reason to stay in the lower level areas after they have done all the quests and reached the max level for that area. In Aion, one's whole purpose is to level up by going through the various level defined zones. One has no choice but to move on to the next area and forced to play the grind game, which to me is not the definition of a sandbox. In something similar to EvE Online's design, one is not required to go anywhere unless one desires to do so.
So, my opinion is that Aion is not a mix between the grind and the sandbox design, but purely a grind game to get to the end game... whether in PvE or PvP. Aion is not a sandbox game at all, because it does not support doing something based on the results... only gaining experience to move on. Aion does not have the depth in its design to make it a sandbox game... again, in my opinion.
...and yes, I have played several of Aion Beta weekends, so I have experience with the game.
I think Aion is a PvPvE themepark game not much sandbox at all.
Now FFXIV has a nice blend of character advancement from a sandbox with the world of a themepark. Also Heroes of Telara looks to be trying to blend Sandbox and Themepark from a PvE perspective.
One key way to tell the difference between a sandbox and themepark is looking at how they expand. Sandboxes often expand by expanding their features, systems, and core game while themeparks expand with content tacked onto the end of their game.
Aion does expand a tiny amount in systems, features, and core game, but most of it is content.
I think Aion is a PvPvE themepark game not much sandbox at all. Now FFXIV has a nice blend of character advancement from a sandbox with the world of a themepark. Also Heroes of Telara looks to be trying to blend Sandbox and Themepark from a PvE perspective. One key way to tell the difference between a sandbox and themepark is looking at how they expand. Sandboxes often expand by expanding their features, systems, and core game while themeparks expand with content tacked onto the end of their game. Aion does expand a tiny amount in systems, features, and core game, but most of it is content.
I find it funny that this person is already making claims about FFIV and there are only a handful of vids of the game at all so far lol....
Anyway, Aion leveling up is definately theme park based. But the end-game is RvR focused, which is far from a theme park and more along the lines of a Sandbox.
I thought this article was going to be about Themepark leveling up and Sandbox end-game... would have made more sense that way.
I stand corrected you can have levels in a sandbox game and not detract from it's sandbox qualities, but you most certainly can't have classes, they restrict your ability to develop your avatar the way you want to. Sandbox games are generally highly dependent on a crafting system to provide everything in the game, Aion's crafting is an afterthought at best.
These comments are not neccessarily true.
For the first comment - Eve's ships are more along the line of classes - they justify your general movement speed, your amount of firepower, the "weight" of your weapons, the possible special mods you could have such as cloaking, and were specifically focused towards a certain "job", yet do not detract from the sandbox qualities as they are highly customizable.
Second comment - crafting is not necessary in a sandbox game. Asherons Call is one of the best sandbox MMO's that have been released and the majority of items were not crafted. Although a few years in they did add an awesome system that let you tinker your gear pieces and weapons, which fit in with the sandbox gameplay perfectly.
I read and wached a lot about Aion, but this article is the first time that the thought "Aion" and "Sandbox" were somehow brought in connection in my brain. Aion got nothing of a sandbox game. I mean writing articles is great, but writing an article saying how much Aion got of a sandbox game and how great Aion is... what is that article good for? Fodder for fanboys and advertisment for the game, but nothing else.
The article seems to be written with the assumption that sandbox is synonymous with open-ended. I think that's a bit too narrow a definition to be a good basis for an article, but that's just my opinion. However you choose to look at it, the game is mostly linear. More so than many competing themepark MMOs, and the sandbox elements are few and far between. If it gives enough illusion of freedom to keep the target audience happy, they got the balance right, though. AoC is a good example of a game that was too linear even for the themepark crowd at launch. WoW got the balance about right, even if it is very far from being a sandbox game. Aion may do the same.
The article seems to be written with the assumption that sandbox is synonymous with open-ended. I think that's a bit too narrow a definition to be a good basis for an article, but that's just my opinion. However you choose to look at it, the game is mostly linear. More so than many competing themepark MMOs, and the sandbox elements are few and far between. If it gives enough illusion of freedom to keep the target audience happy, they got the balance right, though. AoC is a good example of a game that was too linear even for the themepark crowd at launch. WoW got the balance about right, even if it is very far from being a sandbox game. Aion may do the same.
Linear was not the issue of AoC, and not being linear was not the strength of WoW.
AoC lacked polish, and lacked decent content.
At release, if AoC had polish, a decent end-game, a decent progression of gear, and something to actually do at end-game, people would have played.
Linear isnt necessarily a weakness in the MMO game, as long as there is good progression, and a "carrot on a stick" in front of you. In games like AoC, it's very hard to push yourself to keep playing, if there is nothing to look forward to at the end of the tunnel. That's how theme park games survive - most people dont enjoy the leveling in theme parks and typically cant wait until its over, but they have an end-game to look forward to.
Just think of when you play a rerolled char in a theme park MMO and cant wait to get those last few levels over with...
As long as Aions endgame works properly, and is fun, people will put up with the linear progression, just like they do in every other theme park MMO.
For the first comment - Eve's ships are more along the line of classes - they justify your general movement speed, your amount of firepower, the "weight" of your weapons, the possible special mods you could have such as cloaking, and were specifically focused towards a certain "job", yet do not detract from the sandbox qualities as they are highly customizable. In EVE, your ship is not your character and you are not locked into one type or class of ship. A ship is as much a type of character class as a pickaxe or leather armor. Second comment - crafting is not necessary in a sandbox game. Asherons Call is one of the best sandbox MMO's that have been released and the majority of items were not crafted. Although a few years in they did add an awesome system that let you tinker your gear pieces and weapons, which fit in with the sandbox gameplay perfectly. Never thought of AC as a sandbox before. I'm not saying you're wrong, rather that is a view of the game I had not previously considered. Interesting!
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Comments
Regardless of our definition of sandbox, I think we all agree AION isn't a sandbox, the reviewer is either well paid or retarded.
After reading the article myself, I don't see how Aion has the sandbox elements that the article describes. The author is talking about the difference between main quests and side quests, claiming that side quests possess some sort of sandbox element. I don't think I can agree to that. You could have a game in theory full of side quests, in other words, quests without some sort of progression towards a main PvE goal and still not have a proper sandbox "experience". Daily repeatable quests come to mind, I don't think that somebody can argue that they contribute to the sandbox experience of a game.
On the other hand, if said quests appear (or disappear) through a more dynamic element (perhaps due to a player's action, like overhunting in a certain area), then these quests could contribute to the sandbox experience. I don't think that Aion possesses such kind of quests (from my very limited exposure).
I think the author was trying to describe an experience similar to what Oblivion (single player rpg) was giving. In other words, a main quest plot that contributed to the main story, but also enough content outside the main quest, that a player could theoretically ignore the main story indefinitely and do his own thing. Under this light, one can argue that a lot of games possess "sandbox elements". Unfortunately, while it is ok for single player games to diversify in this way from the main plot, most MMOs become very thin games once you strip them from their linear main story driven line. What's left for the vast majority is mob grind, and I don't think that one can argue that at this point in MMO evolution mob grind can be considered a sandbox experience. From my limited exposure to Aion, in the PvE side of things there isn't much one can do once you stip the game from the main linear quest and the mob grinding. Bottom line, Aion PvE has very little (to none) PvE sandbox elements.
PvP is another beast though and it's there where the expectations for a sandbox experience in Aion reside. The world conflicts always had more uncertainty than the more structured battlegrounds or arena grounds. In this regard, yes, Aion can potentially possess a lot of sandbox elements (there is still no total freedom, like the ability to build some permanent fortifications from scratch for example). That's the main reason people are more exciting talking about PvP than PvE as far as Aion is concerned, even if both those two elements (especially with patch 1.5) are equally strong.
If you actually read the article, he is saying that Aion has sandbox elements. Not that it is sandbox. I acutally like a more linear game anyway. It really makes you feel like your toon is connected to the game. Were as in WOW its all about haow many alts you have have because you can't raid tonight :P
That is very often true of the DikuMUD-styled MMOs, but not of all MMOs.
One of the distinct benefits of sandbox design in an MMO is that each character can have a unique history - no two characters follow the same path unless you really make a concerted effort to do so. More importantly, each community and each server develops a unique history, as well.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I agree with you on your points that Aion is a well made theme park and that the correspondent doesn't seem too familiar with the topic he is discussing, but I'm not sure about that level/sandbox point.
Shadowbane had levels, yet it was very sandbox focused in its design. Whether the presence of levels and levelling was a positive feature or a detraction from core gameplay is another story entirely.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Aion is about as theme parked as an mmo can get. The idea of it mixing the best of theme park and sandbox is laughable since there is nothing remotely sand box about it.
Lets keep it simple.
Sanbox: Open, free to do almost anything and go anywhere.
Linear: speaks for istself, led (via game mechanics) from a beginning point to and ending point.
The only thing I can say for now is that ncsoft is one of the few companies that added bunch of dungeons,quests in a patch when it's about to get out in NA and EU.
I wouldn't be surprised if they added more content from patches if they find it necessary instead of always waiting for an expansion like most games do.
Aion is as sandbox as i am a fish
How did this person become a correspondent? Has to be a bad joke.
If you want to see a sandbox, go back in time and play SWG, or try second life for example.
Looks like most people just read the title, without looking at all at the article itself.
In the article he mentions sandbox elements. He doesn't claim that Aion is sandbox. Whether one agrees or not of the game has sandbox elements is open to interpretation, but the title alone does not do justice to the article.
We did read the article but you can't blame us for author's inability to understand the difference between game design and game feature/content.
Also, I would be very much interested in what a 'sandbox element' is supposed to be.
Sandbox is a game design and as such, any part of it alone is meaningless.
What 'element' he talks about is a mystery to me...
While the author lists some of the reasons why the leveling in Aion may be actually enjoyable (at least for the first playthrough) I dont think these things are sandbox elements.
If there is any kind of sandboxing in Aion it'll be in Abyss.
If Aion is sandbox, then every freakin' korean F2P is sandbox, cause you can grind mobs for xp everywhere you like
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
I stand corrected you can have levels in a sandbox game and not detract from it's sandbox qualities, but you most certainly can't have classes, they restrict your ability to develop your avatar the way you want to.
Sandbox games are generally highly dependent on a crafting system to provide everything in the game, Aion's crafting is an afterthought at best.
Even associating the word sandbox with Aion is absurd, but this is a forum and I guess even wacky ideas have to be discussed.
I understand what the author is saying, I don't know if it is correct, because I haven't played Aion.
But what I think he means is that you have more freedom to explore and quest or grind than in other mmo's.
I can give a similar example :
DAoC is not a sandbox, but the RvR in DAoC is more sandboxy than the RvR Campaign in WAR.
In DAoC you had the choice to attack / claim any keep, or pass them all up and go straight for the Relic keep and take the Relic. Or only take enough keeps to open up Darkness Falls. If you took the Relic and placed it into your own relic keep it would stay there until an enemy realm took it back. This could be hours, weeks, months or even years.
Point is, the choice was yours, the world was open ( not instanced ) and there was no magical timer to reset the relic back to another realm.
Now in WAR everything is alot more on rails. You have to take a certain amount of keeps, you need your part of PVE or Instanced PVP, you need 2 of 3 forts ( which are capped in numbers for the defenders ), then you have to win a couple of instances, and then you can get into the city. If you conquer the city, you will automatically get booted after a while.
The whole campaign is on rails, there is little choice and alot of instancing, the RvR areas are small too, so small gangs always run into zergs.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that DAoC felt more "sandboxy" than WAR because you had more freedom to chose your path.
And perhaps this can be said as well about Aion vs WoW ...
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I have to disagree with the definition of 'sandbox' as it is used here in this article. The whole idea of leveling in Aion requires one to reach a certain experience level and move on... whether it involves the campaign or side quests. This, to me, is not the definition of a sandbox. Unlike EvE Online, where one can stay in the High Security Areas for as long as one wishes and still accomplish something; in Aion, one has absolutely no reason to stay in the lower level areas after they have done all the quests and reached the max level for that area. In Aion, one's whole purpose is to level up by going through the various level defined zones. One has no choice but to move on to the next area and forced to play the grind game, which to me is not the definition of a sandbox. In something similar to EvE Online's design, one is not required to go anywhere unless one desires to do so.
So, my opinion is that Aion is not a mix between the grind and the sandbox design, but purely a grind game to get to the end game... whether in PvE or PvP. Aion is not a sandbox game at all, because it does not support doing something based on the results... only gaining experience to move on. Aion does not have the depth in its design to make it a sandbox game... again, in my opinion.
...and yes, I have played several of Aion Beta weekends, so I have experience with the game.
I think Aion is a PvPvE themepark game not much sandbox at all.
Now FFXIV has a nice blend of character advancement from a sandbox with the world of a themepark. Also Heroes of Telara looks to be trying to blend Sandbox and Themepark from a PvE perspective.
One key way to tell the difference between a sandbox and themepark is looking at how they expand. Sandboxes often expand by expanding their features, systems, and core game while themeparks expand with content tacked onto the end of their game.
Aion does expand a tiny amount in systems, features, and core game, but most of it is content.
I find it funny that this person is already making claims about FFIV and there are only a handful of vids of the game at all so far lol....
Anyway, Aion leveling up is definately theme park based. But the end-game is RvR focused, which is far from a theme park and more along the lines of a Sandbox.
I thought this article was going to be about Themepark leveling up and Sandbox end-game... would have made more sense that way.
These comments are not neccessarily true.
For the first comment - Eve's ships are more along the line of classes - they justify your general movement speed, your amount of firepower, the "weight" of your weapons, the possible special mods you could have such as cloaking, and were specifically focused towards a certain "job", yet do not detract from the sandbox qualities as they are highly customizable.
Second comment - crafting is not necessary in a sandbox game. Asherons Call is one of the best sandbox MMO's that have been released and the majority of items were not crafted. Although a few years in they did add an awesome system that let you tinker your gear pieces and weapons, which fit in with the sandbox gameplay perfectly.
I read and wached a lot about Aion, but this article is the first time that the thought "Aion" and "Sandbox" were somehow brought in connection in my brain. Aion got nothing of a sandbox game. I mean writing articles is great, but writing an article saying how much Aion got of a sandbox game and how great Aion is... what is that article good for? Fodder for fanboys and advertisment for the game, but nothing else.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
What sandbox? the game isn't even explorer friendly. From all the info i've gathered the game world is about 20% the size WAR.
Playing: WoW, EvE
Interested in: TOR, ER, GW2, WoD, Dust514
The article seems to be written with the assumption that sandbox is synonymous with open-ended. I think that's a bit too narrow a definition to be a good basis for an article, but that's just my opinion. However you choose to look at it, the game is mostly linear. More so than many competing themepark MMOs, and the sandbox elements are few and far between. If it gives enough illusion of freedom to keep the target audience happy, they got the balance right, though. AoC is a good example of a game that was too linear even for the themepark crowd at launch. WoW got the balance about right, even if it is very far from being a sandbox game. Aion may do the same.
Linear was not the issue of AoC, and not being linear was not the strength of WoW.
AoC lacked polish, and lacked decent content.
At release, if AoC had polish, a decent end-game, a decent progression of gear, and something to actually do at end-game, people would have played.
Linear isnt necessarily a weakness in the MMO game, as long as there is good progression, and a "carrot on a stick" in front of you. In games like AoC, it's very hard to push yourself to keep playing, if there is nothing to look forward to at the end of the tunnel. That's how theme park games survive - most people dont enjoy the leveling in theme parks and typically cant wait until its over, but they have an end-game to look forward to.
Just think of when you play a rerolled char in a theme park MMO and cant wait to get those last few levels over with...
As long as Aions endgame works properly, and is fun, people will put up with the linear progression, just like they do in every other theme park MMO.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?