Originally posted by CDCosta No there are NOT an MMORPG. Not role playing, because you play yourself. Not Massive because its 8 people to a table. It's a Multiplayer Online Game.
I usually play with 10 people at a table with as many as 100+ tables in a single tournament. Given the sharding in CO and instancing in AoC it's not much of a stretch to include these poker tournys as being 'Massive'.
A wise reed bends in the wind. You can't nail down terminology that's as vague as MMO or RPG, trying to just makes you look ignorant.
People began to mistake Level vs Skill as being about whether character advancement or personal skill made the difference in PvP, but in truth in order for personal skill to be the deciding factor character advancement has to be so minute as to be irrelevant and then you've taken the RPG out of the game pretty much entirely. One could say that getting better equipment is a form of progression, but that opens the door to saying that most FPSs are in fact RPGs, so, as not to muddy the already convoluted understanding of the term RPG, it's an unwritten law that the character itself must change in some positive manner due to experience. That's why it's so hard to nail down terms like MMO and RPG, and why I say it's 'widely accepted' that your character must progress to be an RPG. If you got 100 PnP gamers together and asked them what makes a game an RPG at least 70% of them are going to agree.
Well "victory" is a composite of a lot of factors (like skill, advancement, and gear.) And while it's hard to figure out exactly what percentage each contributes to victory (33% skill, 33% advancement, 33% gear?) there is definitely granularity to it. A game with the 33/33/33 split which decides to make gear less important (for example, having it contribute less to DPS) might end up with a 40/40/20 split.
Gear is progression. It's just that for FPS games "FPS" defines them so much better so that's what they call themselves (although some opt for even less specific definitions like "Shooter" or "Action".) Heck, I want to say "but FPSes don't have gear progression choices" to differentiate them, but even that isn't accurate because a lot of FPSes force you to choose between weapons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything that features more than two people playing a game together online seems to have a chance of making it to MMORPG.com’s game list. So hang in there and this may come true
Anything that features more than two people playing a game together online seems to have a chance of making it to MMORPG.com’s game list. So hang in there and this may come true
Very true Scot I was going to ask if Madden is a MMORPG now? It has a lobby can be played online and you can roleplay an NFL QB or any other NFL player
I know it sounds absurd. For me online poker games could never, not even in my wildest dreams, be MMORPGs. But I tried to apply the most current definitions of a MMORPG game to online poker games and to my surprise I found out that by these definitions online poker games are MMORPGs.
Applying the definitions of a MMORPG game to online poker games:
1. They are massive (no doubt about that). No they are not massive, the amount of people into OPG is massive indeed, but you can not play with a massive amount of people similtaniosly on one server at the same time. There for they aren't massive.
2. They are multiplayer (no doubt about that). True. But then again should we call all multiplayer games MMO's? 3. They are online (no doubt about that). True but like 2 should we call every online game a MMO, obviously we do not.
4. If killing mobs with other players in an instance is role playing, then playing poker with other players in a room is also role playing. Killing mobs is just a very minor feature in roleplaying, so sure you could consider playing poker could involve some roleplaying, again very minor, but then again we can role-play what ever we want with what ever we want. 5. They have persistent worlds. At first this sounds crazy, but let me explain it. Online poker games have a lobby (main world) and then they have rooms in which players are playing poker (instanced dungeons). The lobby and the rooms are persistent because every time you log into the game the lobby and the rooms are completely the same (of course inside the same version of the game). It's the same in WOW - every time you log into WOW the world and the instances are completely the same (of course inside the same version of the game). Rooms or Lobby's are not worlds for me to explore/discover. 6. Your character in the game is persistent. Whatever you win or loose in a poker game its permanent for your character. Next time you log into the game you will have the same amount of money as when you logged out of the game. Doesn't that logic applies to just about every game?
7. You are developing your character over time. This is even a sandbox element. You don't have levels but you are developing the poker skills of your character by using the skills. After one year of playing your character is better in playing poker then he was at the beginning. You're only developing your own personal skills, nothing changes with the avatar you using by playing poker, in a MMORPG it's your character (the one you are controling) that due to lvl/skills/gear/loot/crafting etc. aquires his skills. With poker only you personaly aquire skills, example let someone ( a newb) enter YOUR MMORPG and play with your maxed out character, fair change he or she will survive many things not as good as YOU who has build that character but he/she will manage many things, now let someone (a newb) enter a high rollers room with very experianced players in it but let that person use your online character, that person will fail ( unless the newb is actualy very good at poker of course) cause the character people see in the poker room, might look like YOU but doesn't play like YOU because it's someone else, with MMORPG maxed out characters are often clones of eachother, wearing the same gear, using mostly the same or similar tactics.
8. Another sandbox element. In online poker games you have full PvP and you can loot other characters. Never knew full-loot was considered a sandbox element as to me full-loot can fit into any type of game style, may it be sandbox or themepark/linear. 9. You have also PvE in online poker games, because some type of games can be played with NPCs. Then with your point 9 we should consider allot more different game genre's to be MMO's? sorry doesn't work for me. There has to be a mistake somewhere. My reasoning could be wrong or there could be something wrong with the definitions of a MMORPG game.
MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar.
These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.
Originally posted by Reklaw MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar. These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.
Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.
As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG. But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.
To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere. Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To me an MMORPG has to include some key elements such as killing things (most important) , crafting, have an online economy of trading goods and services (adding cash to your account doesn't count), gear that improves your stats and of course, progression of character skills independent of the person behind it.
No one will ever add those elements to poker, so it stays as an MMOG.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Reklaw MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar. These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.
Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.
Kinda the reason why I just explained what it is I want, sorry for sharing my opinion on forums like this.
As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG. But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.
Yeah kinda logical aint it?
To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere. Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.
But as you might have noticed the topic was not about some hybrid type of poker game but pure about "online poker Games" and I gave my opinion on that topic.
Originally posted by Reklaw But as you might have noticed the topic was not about some hybrid type of poker game but pure about "online poker Games" and I gave my opinion on that topic.
And as you apparently didn't notice, the thread moved beyond that into whether a Poker RPG was an MMORPG. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't get you guys, RPG literally means roleplayinggame i.e. playing a role in a game. What ever that role is, is up to you and what the game has to offer. Online poker games are by no means a RPG game as you can't even control your character. If there was a lobby where you can move your character and interact with other people then you should be able to call it a RPG.
P.S.
Axehilt
Elite Member
Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 559
How can this be?
IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective and has nothing to do with a game is sandbox or not.
Not real sure how rank works here. Sort of prefer Allakhazam's rated-post system. Encourages people to make quality posts (in a way that's very MMO-like even. (: )
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Poker could be an mmorpg if all of the rooms/tables were in an open world environment that allowed other players to walk up to the table (without seeing all the hands of course) and interact. Basically like a casino, but isn't there an mmo like this in the works? Otherwise it is basically like a big chat room of viewers, each game somewhat of a sandbox in relation to the poker game's community as a whole.
Poker could be an mmorpg if all of the rooms/tables were in an open world environment that allowed other players to walk up to the table (without seeing all the hands of course) and interact. Basically like a casino, but isn't there an mmo like this in the works? Otherwise it is basically like a big chat room of viewers, each game somewhat of a sandbox in relation to the poker game's community as a whole.
Isn't that basically what I said in my reply third post above this one?
IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective and has nothing to do with a game is sandbox or not.
Poker could be an mmorpg if all of the rooms/tables were in an open world environment that allowed other players to walk up to the table (without seeing all the hands of course) and interact. Basically like a casino, but isn't there an mmo like this in the works? Otherwise it is basically like a big chat room of viewers, each game somewhat of a sandbox in relation to the poker game's community as a whole.
MMORPG doesn't stand for Open World Game.
Most MMORPGs are Open World, but it's not what makes a game an MMORPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, like the title says, should be a game where people did a Roleplay of an alter ego, or, had a virtual character wich would be evolved to interact on a virtual world.
I dont see what does poker have to do you roleplaying a character or open world or closed.... its nor a massive multiplayer online open world game, its a roleplaying game..
Bah, what am i talking about, most ppl nowadays dont even know what a roleplaying game is...
A Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, like the title says, should be a game where people did a Roleplay of an alter ego, or, had a virtual character wich would be evolved to interact on a virtual world. I dont see what does poker have to do you roleplaying a character or open world or closed.... its nor a massive multiplayer online open world game, its a roleplaying game..
Bah, what am i talking about, most ppl nowadays dont even know what a roleplaying game is...
I agree with your point about playing poker online not having any semblance of playing a role. But, as your last sentence says, most people in "rpg''s don't have any semblance of playing a role either.
Online poker is definitely, frequently, more massively multiplayer than a lot of MMO(RPGs) I've been on lately. It's just lacking the "RP". So I guess they would be MMPOGs or MMOGs but it would take a fairly weird player to make it an MMORPG. At least that would make the table chat more interesting.
How dare you present him with logic! Don't you understand? He fights epic fights, in epic games, with epic toons....eats epic food and takes epic dumps! He has more e..pic..icity...ness in his little finger than you have in your whole unepic body! - ChicagoCub
I agree with your point about playing poker online not having any semblance of playing a role. But, as your last sentence says, most people in "rpg''s don't have any semblance of playing a role either.
It's not the same type of role-playing found in tabletop games, but you can't say that "healer" or "warrior" aren't roles. People play roles in RPGs. They're just not play-acting the roles.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes it does sound absurd, why didn't you just stop there -_-
Original Posts like this are an excellent example of how people can use a features of MMORPG and generalize it too much to expand it to everything else.
No, a Poker is no way in hell even comparable to an MMORPG. Just use your brain for a moment, you are not using an avatar and directly interacting with a world. The only effects that are persistent are people's wallets/fun chips and your premade avatar that your weapon-of-choice Poker client has provided you. And if my wallet is premise to allow Poker to even be considered an MMORPG then life in itself is an MMORPG. Its a card game for christ sake, at least try to comparing MMORPGs to pen and paper, people have been playing Poker in the real world for ages with each other before the internet even existed for consumer use, the internet just makes this easier for everyone to play without taking a tour around Texas or Las Vegas.
The analogies used are just taken way out context/proportion and again another prime example of people out there that cannot apply definitions more properly. With a genre like MMORPG, its more of a guideline then any set defining feature, there really isn't any. If you want to compare online Poker to anything, maybe FPS only because you join a lobby, you join a game, game ends, you start a new game, you have an avatar and everyone has the option to do everything within the game (in Poker's case, fold, raise, bet, check, shittalk). You do not acquire stats, equipment or play make-believe, the sandbox analogy was laughable and outrageous enough for me to want to respond. The skills developed are the knowledge and application of knowledge/inferences of other players which dwells within your own real life brain. You do not acquire the ability magically to read Daniel Negreanu after winning 100 Satellite tournament with 100+ members through your avatar or get free get out of jail free cards if you find yourself losing on the turn all of a sudden.
You are right, all of this does sound absurd to even consider writing a thread about it -_-
There is a big difference between massive and massively. One is an adjective which could for all intents and purposes stand alone and make perfectly good sense, but one is an adverb that qualifies another word, so on it's own it is meaningless. Your homework for tomorrow is to figure out which is which and if your original thesis of online poker games being MMORPGs stands to reason.
Comments
Nope, they are not MMO's. You suck.
I usually play with 10 people at a table with as many as 100+ tables in a single tournament. Given the sharding in CO and instancing in AoC it's not much of a stretch to include these poker tournys as being 'Massive'.
A wise reed bends in the wind. You can't nail down terminology that's as vague as MMO or RPG, trying to just makes you look ignorant.
Are online poker games MMORPGS?
No. MMOG yes MMORPG no.
Well "victory" is a composite of a lot of factors (like skill, advancement, and gear.) And while it's hard to figure out exactly what percentage each contributes to victory (33% skill, 33% advancement, 33% gear?) there is definitely granularity to it. A game with the 33/33/33 split which decides to make gear less important (for example, having it contribute less to DPS) might end up with a 40/40/20 split.
Gear is progression. It's just that for FPS games "FPS" defines them so much better so that's what they call themselves (although some opt for even less specific definitions like "Shooter" or "Action".) Heck, I want to say "but FPSes don't have gear progression choices" to differentiate them, but even that isn't accurate because a lot of FPSes force you to choose between weapons.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything that features more than two people playing a game together online seems to have a chance of making it to MMORPG.com’s game list. So hang in there and this may come true
Very true Scot I was going to ask if Madden is a MMORPG now? It has a lobby can be played online and you can roleplay an NFL QB or any other NFL player
MMORPG a game genre that when entering one I want to be immersed with the "game" world, I want to explore things/area's/settings I am not able to explore in rl, I want to craft/harvest things I never ever will be able to make in rl, I want to discover creature's/sightings I could never see in rl, I want to have a home in the far reaches of space/another dimension/a fantasy setting which is so different from rl but still feels somewhat familiar.
These elements I do not get from poker games or online poker games.
Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.
As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG. But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.
To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere. Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To me an MMORPG has to include some key elements such as killing things (most important) , crafting, have an online economy of trading goods and services (adding cash to your account doesn't count), gear that improves your stats and of course, progression of character skills independent of the person behind it.
No one will ever add those elements to poker, so it stays as an MMOG.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eh? Whether you "want" it in your game is pretty inconsequential to a discussion of what MMORPGs are defined as.
Kinda the reason why I just explained what it is I want, sorry for sharing my opinion on forums like this.
As we've all covered, Poker isn't an RPG. But if Poker was an RPG (and it could easily be,) online Poker could be called an MMORPG.
Yeah kinda logical aint it?
To be honest, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Poker RPG out there somewhere. Stuff like Puzzle Pirates and Puzzle Quest has been around for years showing people that attaching RPG elements to unusual types of games is fun.
Looking for this? > http://pokerrpg.com/
But as you might have noticed the topic was not about some hybrid type of poker game but pure about "online poker Games" and I gave my opinion on that topic.
And as you apparently didn't notice, the thread moved beyond that into whether a Poker RPG was an MMORPG. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't get you guys, RPG literally means roleplayinggame i.e. playing a role in a game. What ever that role is, is up to you and what the game has to offer. Online poker games are by no means a RPG game as you can't even control your character. If there was a lobby where you can move your character and interact with other people then you should be able to call it a RPG.
P.S.
Axehilt
Elite Member
Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 559
How can this be?
IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective and has nothing to do with a game is sandbox or not.
Credits to DarthRaiden
Not real sure how rank works here. Sort of prefer Allakhazam's rated-post system. Encourages people to make quality posts (in a way that's very MMO-like even. (: )
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Poker could be an mmorpg if all of the rooms/tables were in an open world environment that allowed other players to walk up to the table (without seeing all the hands of course) and interact. Basically like a casino, but isn't there an mmo like this in the works? Otherwise it is basically like a big chat room of viewers, each game somewhat of a sandbox in relation to the poker game's community as a whole.
Isn't that basically what I said in my reply third post above this one?
IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective and has nothing to do with a game is sandbox or not.
Credits to DarthRaiden
MMORPG doesn't stand for Open World Game.
Most MMORPGs are Open World, but it's not what makes a game an MMORPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, like the title says, should be a game where people did a Roleplay of an alter ego, or, had a virtual character wich would be evolved to interact on a virtual world.
I dont see what does poker have to do you roleplaying a character or open world or closed.... its nor a massive multiplayer online open world game, its a roleplaying game..
Bah, what am i talking about, most ppl nowadays dont even know what a roleplaying game is...
I agree with your point about playing poker online not having any semblance of playing a role. But, as your last sentence says, most people in "rpg''s don't have any semblance of playing a role either.
Online poker is definitely, frequently, more massively multiplayer than a lot of MMO(RPGs) I've been on lately. It's just lacking the "RP". So I guess they would be MMPOGs or MMOGs but it would take a fairly weird player to make it an MMORPG.
At least that would make the table chat more interesting.
How dare you present him with logic! Don't you understand? He fights epic fights, in epic games, with epic toons....eats epic food and takes epic dumps! He has more e..pic..icity...ness in his little finger than you have in your whole unepic body! - ChicagoCub
It's not the same type of role-playing found in tabletop games, but you can't say that "healer" or "warrior" aren't roles. People play roles in RPGs. They're just not play-acting the roles.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes it does sound absurd, why didn't you just stop there -_-
Original Posts like this are an excellent example of how people can use a features of MMORPG and generalize it too much to expand it to everything else.
No, a Poker is no way in hell even comparable to an MMORPG. Just use your brain for a moment, you are not using an avatar and directly interacting with a world. The only effects that are persistent are people's wallets/fun chips and your premade avatar that your weapon-of-choice Poker client has provided you. And if my wallet is premise to allow Poker to even be considered an MMORPG then life in itself is an MMORPG. Its a card game for christ sake, at least try to comparing MMORPGs to pen and paper, people have been playing Poker in the real world for ages with each other before the internet even existed for consumer use, the internet just makes this easier for everyone to play without taking a tour around Texas or Las Vegas.
The analogies used are just taken way out context/proportion and again another prime example of people out there that cannot apply definitions more properly. With a genre like MMORPG, its more of a guideline then any set defining feature, there really isn't any. If you want to compare online Poker to anything, maybe FPS only because you join a lobby, you join a game, game ends, you start a new game, you have an avatar and everyone has the option to do everything within the game (in Poker's case, fold, raise, bet, check, shittalk). You do not acquire stats, equipment or play make-believe, the sandbox analogy was laughable and outrageous enough for me to want to respond. The skills developed are the knowledge and application of knowledge/inferences of other players which dwells within your own real life brain. You do not acquire the ability magically to read Daniel Negreanu after winning 100 Satellite tournament with 100+ members through your avatar or get free get out of jail free cards if you find yourself losing on the turn all of a sudden.
You are right, all of this does sound absurd to even consider writing a thread about it -_-
There is a big difference between massive and massively. One is an adjective which could for all intents and purposes stand alone and make perfectly good sense, but one is an adverb that qualifies another word, so on it's own it is meaningless. Your homework for tomorrow is to figure out which is which and if your original thesis of online poker games being MMORPGs stands to reason.
To put it in perspective.... I would put phone sex on this list before online poker.
Its massive its multiplayer ...its ON-LINE and you have people roleplaying
I got one for fishing too but I won't bore ya but its online also and is....
I thought we had phone sex online already?
It's the MMO you play + Team Speak or Ventrillo
Haha true