But the OP is right. Eve is about Gank and zerg. For this, I have little respect for Eve's PvP. I wouldn't even call it PvP - It's a jungle. Only improvement in sight is the alliance tournament thingy. Which seems nice, i think. Atleast they try. To say that Eve would beat "shallower" (haha) games like Guild Wars or WAR in regards of exciting PvP is clear fanboi-talk and should be dismissed as such -> utter nonsense. Fact is, no matter what you have at stake, PvP is at its best when the opposing sides are equal or nearly equal and they both stay and fight.
You have no idea how wars are fought then. What you refer to is a 'sports' game where both sides have equal numbers. Or something like Boxing, Basketball, UFC, blah blah. All 'fair'
WAR--- there is no 'fair'. You bring superior force. If you bring less numbers then you hit-and-run. Kill what u can and blaze
Oh please... you want to call sports dull and war fun? Really? You like to play basketball 10 against 3? Is it fun for anyone? Really? If you choose to play only on the "winning side" you are a very small person. And do not try to preach about what is war, that is just sad.
I can respect why some may like war, or in game terms, gankfest, but don't go saying it is the best thing out there. You really have to look into yourself why you do PvP. I do it because I love the challenge. I don't even need to win as long as the match is good and "tight".
Being a guy beating up another guy who is tied up is not fun. It is certainly not fun to be the guy tied up. The act is not fun to watch from the sidelines either. A little extreme, black and white example but think about it.
Oh and I do play Eve, not because its great, actually far from it, but because I have exhausted all other options and it is, with its flaws, sufficient atleast. I can enjoy it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
There's alot more that goes into EVE PVP than just who shows up to the fight. Did you ever stop to think about why one side has 10 and the other 3? Chances are the first time they met the odds where alot more even, and the 3 that do show up are trying to hold on as long as they can because it means something to them.
Also if you do play you will soon learn that everyone loses and nobody is always on the winning side.
If there's a certain type of combat you like you have to make it happen and believe me people do. EVE is a sandbox there isn't a neon sign in space that says enter here for your type of PVP. It's always about attrition tho. If you want to square of in a controlled slug fest with nothing but winning or losing as a consequence, your probably going to find your self running missions for cash real quick. The minute you really have something to lose you'll understand why people try to show up with every advantage.
10% stand up fights.....90% all gank. Eve is a game of whimps. Only time I ever get to "pvp" is when I am either out numbered or ganking someone else. No one ever stays for a fight when the number are equal or fair. Kind of lame.
Much of the game is PvP, only small part of it is actual combat.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I am not disagreeing with why you all like Eve. I understand the enjoyment you gain from pvp in order to get additional items, upgrades and such. I really do. All I am trying to convey is that some people perfer the challenge of battling a group verse a group that is not such a guarenteed victory for one side. They enjoy the challenge. It is like boxing but more like football when you are talking group combat. The joy of a winning a football game is not because of the prize money or salary when you have a somewhat close game. I never enjoyed an American football game that was a score of like 7 to 53. Not everyone's goal is to pvp to increase their wealth or to punish another player as to be come more wealthy by keeping them down. Some people like to test their group skill, tactics and strategies against other equally skilled oppenates and if they are victorious to know it came because they were better.
I always object to people using the term PvP in Eve because while technically it is player against player the term really has become to mean a fight between equals or equal forces and that is not what goes on in Eve. Not 100% sure if the original quote was from Patton or not but I recall a quote that basically stated "The object is not to die for your country to but make the other sorry bastard die for his" and THAT is what battles in Eve is about.
Fights in Eve are territorial in nature and focused around defending or acquiring territory it is not about some silly jousting tournament where everyone stands around watching a fight between to knights on horses and says how handsome the winner is. It is about killing your opponent and taking their stuff.
There are consequences in dieing in Eve and if I am rigged out with an expensive set of implants flying a custom ship and stumble into a bad situation I am not going to sit around waiting to get killed just to adhere to someone elses sense of what is honor. Conversely if I start a fight it will be with intention of destroying their ship and probably podding them though I am not a big fan of podding someone personally.
Large scale fleet actions in Eve are amazing but again that is not PvP and it's not RvR or anything else currently played in MMOs. It is a military battle and if you plan to win you need to fight that way.
WoW is a great game and provides lot of opportunities for PvP of the kind many people want and people who don't want this should consider playing WoW or something similar.
I am not disagreeing with why you all like Eve. I understand the enjoyment you gain from pvp in order to get additional items, upgrades and such. I really do.
No one Pvps to get upgrades.
Eve is mostly about preparation before the actual encounter.
Pvpers have many reasons to pvp not just Isk and stuff.
Ask around every Pvpers gameplay experience and style is totally different.
"The object is not to die for your country to but make the other sorry bastard die for his" and THAT is what battles in Eve is about.
Spot on. Most PVP games are focused on killing your opponent, with virtually no consequence for losing. EVE is focused on not dieing while making sure your opponent does. Its a radical shift in thinking which means you fight battles only on terms of your own chosing if at all possible.
It is about killing your opponent and taking their stuff. - While not always true, nothing more satisfying than catching a solo running full freighter and looting billions out of it. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, good fun.
There are consequences in dieing in Eve and if I am rigged out with an expensive set of implants flying a custom ship and stumble into a bad situation I am not going to sit around waiting to get killed just to adhere to someone elses sense of what is honor. - Absoluetly true. When your risk is greater than your oppoenent, and the odds look like you don't really have a decent chance of prevailing, its perfectly acceptable to cut and run, and try and engage the enemy on your own terms.
Large scale fleet actions in Eve are amazing but again that is not PvP and it's not RvR or anything else currently played in MMOs. It is a military battle and if you plan to win you need to fight that way. - Really excellent observation, large fleet battles are more akin to real world naval battles and you can't call it PVP in the traditional sense.
WoW is a great game and provides lot of opportunities for PvP of the kind many people want and people who don't want this should consider playing WoW or something similar.
And of course, the last comment is the best summation that could be made. Some games are meant to provide totally fair and balanced combat (I think they are called first person shooters), and some MMORPG's try to balance PVP with things like arena's and battlegrounds (WOW comes to mind).
For some folks, this is what PVP is all about, and they should stick with games that support said playstyle.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I always object to people using the term PvP in Eve because while technically it is player against player the term really has become to mean a fight between equals or equal forces and that is not what goes on in Eve. Not 100% sure if the original quote was from Patton or not but I recall a quote that basically stated "The object is not to die for your country to but make the other sorry bastard die for his" and THAT is what battles in Eve is about. ... WoW is a great game and provides lot of opportunities for PvP of the kind many people want ...
Spot on.
What an EvE player calls PvP has little to do with the PvP of a WoW player. We mean different things and because of that we tend to dismiss the figths of other games as not PvP or crappy PvP or whatever, when in fact we are talking about completely different styles of play.
PvP in EVE is good for the very reason that it is quite realistic. Every action has consequences. And you have everything from small pirate gangs to huge alliancies fighting for resources and territory in varying degree.
Just like in real life, you only try to fight the battles you can win. It is not always possible, but you try to do your best. Risk taking is part of the formula. The PvP strategy on scale of large corporations to alliances requires similar things that a preparation for a real war would. Anything from diplomacy to scouting/spying, knowning terrain and knowing your self and the enemy, choosing your terrain and of course the dreaded logistics. After that you have to start looking at the roles of leadership and so on. On top of that all, your economic capablitity has to be able to support warfare. There will be losses and attrition warfare is pointless due to the strain it puts on your economy and logistics.
I can appreciate that the EVE PvP can seem dull to instant gratification types, who enjoy their carefree and safe instanced PvP in games like WoW. EVE can be much more complex and some people just do not have required patience or intelligence to get that far in order to enjoy it. Or they simply want instant gratification (which EVE does not do so well) - most of do from time to time, but I would never ever want EVE to be designed for that type of gameplay. Plus there are much better games for it.
If you want more arcade space MMO, there are few coming along shortly.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
10% stand up fights.....90% all gank. Eve is a game of whimps. Only time I ever get to "pvp" is when I am either out numbered or ganking someone else. No one ever stays for a fight when the number are equal or fair. Kind of lame.
Its exactly the same in any PvP game (strategy, shooter or instanced MMO battle) just most of the PvP games have much smaller scale PvP where its more easy to step back or attack. Peoples name it fast placed combat. In EvE strategy is much more deeper and with proper strategy and skill group of players can defeat much more stronger oponents.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
But the OP is right. Eve is about Gank and zerg. For this, I have little respect for Eve's PvP. I wouldn't even call it PvP - It's a jungle. Only improvement in sight is the alliance tournament thingy. Which seems nice, i think. Atleast they try. To say that Eve would beat "shallower" (haha) games like Guild Wars or WAR in regards of exciting PvP is clear fanboi-talk and should be dismissed as such -> utter nonsense. Fact is, no matter what you have at stake, PvP is at its best when the opposing sides are equal or nearly equal and they both stay and fight.
You have no idea how wars are fought then. What you refer to is a 'sports' game where both sides have equal numbers. Or something like Boxing, Basketball, UFC, blah blah. All 'fair'
WAR--- there is no 'fair'. You bring superior force. If you bring less numbers then you hit-and-run. Kill what u can and blaze
Oh please... you want to call sports dull and war fun? Really? You like to play basketball 10 against 3? Is it fun for anyone? Really? If you choose to play only on the "winning side" you are a very small person. And do not try to preach about what is war, that is just sad.
I never did say sports are not fun. I like to watch basketball and go outside and shoot some hoops. But that is not war-- it's just fun competition.
I can respect why some may like war, or in game terms, gankfest, but don't go saying it is the best thing out there. You really have to look into yourself why you do PvP. I do it because I love the challenge. I don't even need to win as long as the match is good and "tight".
That is the difference between you and I. My enemies are scum and do not deserve fair fights. They deserve to get bottlenecked into systems and destroyed by 24/7 camps til they have suffered extreme loss. Real war- sees a conclusion. Sports games- they are just light hearted activites you do to entertain the crowd. In a war, real consequences are incurred.
Being a guy beating up another guy who is tied up is not fun. It is certainly not fun to be the guy tied up. The act is not fun to watch from the sidelines either. A little extreme, black and white example but think about it.
Who says? It is awesome fun to totally crush your enemy and break their morale.
Oh and I do play Eve, not because its great, actually far from it, but because I have exhausted all other options and it is, with its flaws, sufficient atleast. I can enjoy it.
Good, fly safe because war is coming to Empire in a big way these days. There will no longer be a safe place to hide. you will learn to appreciate war or suffer the consequences of your inactions
I am not disagreeing with why you all like Eve. I understand the enjoyment you gain from pvp in order to get additional items, upgrades and such. I really do. All I am trying to convey is that some people perfer the challenge of battling a group verse a group that is not such a guarenteed victory for one side. They enjoy the challenge. It is like boxing but more like football when you are talking group combat. The joy of a winning a football game is not because of the prize money or salary when you have a somewhat close game. I never enjoyed an American football game that was a score of like 7 to 53. Not everyone's goal is to pvp to increase their wealth or to punish another player as to be come more wealthy by keeping them down. Some people like to test their group skill, tactics and strategies against other equally skilled oppenates and if they are victorious to know it came because they were better.
Agh, why do you make us sound like WoW players? What do you think EVE is? We go to some designated area in deep space and pvp each other and then the last team standing keeps the spoils and gets rich? So you think we pvp and pvp til we get enough ISK to buy new ships?
This ain't WoW. This is EVE. Wars are 'expensive'. Wardecs cost isk. Ship loss cost isk. And even when you pop all your enemy most of the time they drop crappy loots that is little compensation for my Ishtar I'm risking (ishtar is uninsurable HAC).
PVP is a costly thing. Sure, some people make profit via ransoms and what have have you but its not easy like you make this out to be. We PVP for fun. For some, killing haulers is fun. For some, popping defense stuff is fun. Hell I like shooting other blues (friendlies) cause i dont like everyone in my Alliance.
This is EVE. If you want fair fights then good luck finding those. I've never seen a fair fight that i can recall and probably when I did see one they were bait or something
Granted, pointless ganking does take place, as in any mmo with open world pvp, but what I was referring to is that EvE doesn't provide for pvp just for the sake of pvp to see who is better at pvp. (unless players agree to that before they fight.) Generally speaking at least one of the combatants has some stake in the outcome of pvp, which is why I don't refer to it as pointless. PvP takes place in the context of the world in which the game is played in. That is satisfying for some, not for others, but I wouldn't label it as a flaw of the game.
Agreed.
'Pointless' pvp, from my perspective, is the kind of non-consequential epeen waving that the OP seems to be looking for. Want a fair and evenly matched fight? Play an fps. Everyone's even, nothing is at stake, and you can kill repetitively and for no reason (beyond leader boards) to your heart's content.
PVP in EVE is very strategic because of the potential consequences, i.e. you actually have something to fight for besides meaningless bragging rights.
This is a video of us smashing a fleet outnumbered, if you cant pvp you need to practice, it doesnt take numbers to win the game Now if they came with 17 gank armageddons with eccm, ya they would of won from pure dps, but they didnt, they flew dumb setups and lost, stop whining and learn how to pvp, EVE is the only game where you lose something when you die, you dont just respawn and say "Man we lost", man up little buddy.
Personally I like a balance of the two pvp concepts used today. Imo Eve seems too harsh ( I don't play) and WoW/ Guildwars seems too sportive. I don't want to risk 10 hours of what I consider boring or mundane game play in order to experance pvp 10 secounds of a risky pvp fight. Mostly because I really don't want to do all the grinding, gathering of meterials or doing missions for Isk. I can see the realism to it but I mean If I wanted a game to be realistic I would not be playing it. My real experance with this type of extremely high risk / high reward pvp was in Darkfall. I thought It would be really fun but even a good guild is going to lose people in a pvp battle unless it is a total gank. I was left with two options gank people or play 10 hours a day to get get good fights with a chance of losing 10 hours of time invested. I think a happy meduim needs to be reached between the two extremes and for me I found that In Shadowbane and maybe Eve really does have that balance but I doubt it.
Guild items I am not referencing like castles, corp stations ect, because you personally are not just grinding them up.
10% stand up fights.....90% all gank. Eve is a game of whimps. Only time I ever get to "pvp" is when I am either out numbered or ganking someone else. No one ever stays for a fight when the number are equal or fair. Kind of lame.
I have yet to find a MMORPG where this was not the standard.
Gank, Zergs all being the usual way to fight.
Only in forced balanced FPS type games, far from MMORPG's will you find that PvP is 32v32 or 2v2 etc.
The day you find a MMORPG where PvP is not about ganking the oponent or noobs... Point me in the direction hehe.
10% stand up fights.....90% all gank. Eve is a game of whimps. Only time I ever get to "pvp" is when I am either out numbered or ganking someone else. No one ever stays for a fight when the number are equal or fair. Kind of lame.
I have yet to find a MMORPG where this was not the standard.
Gank, Zergs all being the usual way to fight.
Only in forced balanced FPS type games, far from MMORPG's will you find that PvP is 32v32 or 2v2 etc.
The day you find a MMORPG where PvP is not about ganking the oponent or noobs... Point me in the direction hehe.
The above poster said WoW arena's, Guildwars, Warhammer Senarios ect.
I think its more of a spectruim that each mmo fall into from the extreme of Eve, Darkfall and the other extreme of Wow arena, Guildwars and Warhammer instances.
Ganking is a fight in which the ganker is almost certain to win. As with successful zerg. Everything else is within a competitive range. It does not require the fight be equal numbers exactly or in a exact and unchanging enviroment.
Real war and combat is harsh cruel and unforgiving, I understand that. I also disagree. If you were the president of a country in Southern Europe and decided to declare independance and forcefully killed and removed weak and helpless people from your country would you get away with it without being remanded? If newbs in game are to be considered soldiers then why is it when American forces encounter enemy soldiers that do not attack them and posess little threat we cannot just line them up and shoot them all?
I think ganking newbs in the real world is unrealistic. In fact anyone who during recent history who has Killed weak and defenceless people in war time was considered an evil historical figure.
Personally I like a balance of the two pvp concepts used today. Imo Eve seems too harsh ( I don't play) and WoW/ Guildwars seems too sportive. I don't want to risk 10 hours of what I consider boring or mundane game play in order to experance pvp 10 secounds of a risky pvp fight. Mostly because I really don't want to do all the grinding, gathering of meterials or doing missions for Isk [snip] I think a happy meduim needs to be reached between the two extremes and for me I found that In Shadowbane and maybe Eve really does have that balance but I doubt it.
First off..
In Eve, if you don't want to grind, you can buy a GTC and sell it for isk. Legally.
Second, and more importantly..
Eve does have that balance. An example is being a pirate. Take risks. I befriended quite a few pirates in Eve, and most of them challange cruisers and above in their frigates - and win.
At the same time, 0.0 alliances fight a lot and roam a lot. They may not be in a 1:1 person ratio, but in "strength" it's often close.
If you decide to start at one point or another, I suggest you try piracy. There are a lot of good pirate corps out there which take in noobs (even day 1 noobs) and train them up. I met a guy who started two weeks ago and already got his first cruiser kill.. In a frigate. 1v1. Not because the cruiser had a terrible fit or was a noob, but because the 'new-guy' knew more about combat tactics, and used them to his advantage.
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I think ganking newbs in the real world is unrealistic. In fact anyone who during recent history who has Killed weak and defenceless people in war time was considered an evil historical figure.
So.. Most of the people who colonized the US (as well as other places..) are evil?
Napoleon?
[insert names of the leaders of the American Civil War here] were evil?
Richard Nixon?
A lot of people kill weak and defenceless people in war times. It's civil casulties. Efforts are made to reduce these casulties, but they are inevitable.
Also. "Newbs" would be people with little training, like fairly green conscripts.
Not weak and defenceless.
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"Eve has some of the crappiest PvP in a game." I agree. I like sandbox games and I like PvP and EVE has both but.... It's not my cup of tea to say the least. I experimented a bit and put a "space" wallpaper on my work PC and worked on some spreadsheets...and it was just like playing EVE....true story!
I dont understand why would you think EVE pvp is a spreadsheet? The heart pounding in my chest is real when I'm flying something hail marry that I just really dont want to lose.
Comments
You have no idea how wars are fought then. What you refer to is a 'sports' game where both sides have equal numbers. Or something like Boxing, Basketball, UFC, blah blah. All 'fair'
WAR--- there is no 'fair'. You bring superior force. If you bring less numbers then you hit-and-run. Kill what u can and blaze
Oh please... you want to call sports dull and war fun? Really? You like to play basketball 10 against 3? Is it fun for anyone? Really? If you choose to play only on the "winning side" you are a very small person. And do not try to preach about what is war, that is just sad.
I can respect why some may like war, or in game terms, gankfest, but don't go saying it is the best thing out there. You really have to look into yourself why you do PvP. I do it because I love the challenge. I don't even need to win as long as the match is good and "tight".
Being a guy beating up another guy who is tied up is not fun. It is certainly not fun to be the guy tied up. The act is not fun to watch from the sidelines either. A little extreme, black and white example but think about it.
Oh and I do play Eve, not because its great, actually far from it, but because I have exhausted all other options and it is, with its flaws, sufficient atleast. I can enjoy it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There's alot more that goes into EVE PVP than just who shows up to the fight. Did you ever stop to think about why one side has 10 and the other 3? Chances are the first time they met the odds where alot more even, and the 3 that do show up are trying to hold on as long as they can because it means something to them.
Also if you do play you will soon learn that everyone loses and nobody is always on the winning side.
If there's a certain type of combat you like you have to make it happen and believe me people do. EVE is a sandbox there isn't a neon sign in space that says enter here for your type of PVP. It's always about attrition tho. If you want to square of in a controlled slug fest with nothing but winning or losing as a consequence, your probably going to find your self running missions for cash real quick. The minute you really have something to lose you'll understand why people try to show up with every advantage.
Much of the game is PvP, only small part of it is actual combat.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
ill happily stick around for a fair fight, but will run like a little girl if i get blobbed.
lets see what happens after dominion, its intended to counteract some of the blobbyness.
Welcome to the jungle baby!!! Your going to Die!!!!!!!
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I am not disagreeing with why you all like Eve. I understand the enjoyment you gain from pvp in order to get additional items, upgrades and such. I really do. All I am trying to convey is that some people perfer the challenge of battling a group verse a group that is not such a guarenteed victory for one side. They enjoy the challenge. It is like boxing but more like football when you are talking group combat. The joy of a winning a football game is not because of the prize money or salary when you have a somewhat close game. I never enjoyed an American football game that was a score of like 7 to 53. Not everyone's goal is to pvp to increase their wealth or to punish another player as to be come more wealthy by keeping them down. Some people like to test their group skill, tactics and strategies against other equally skilled oppenates and if they are victorious to know it came because they were better.
I always object to people using the term PvP in Eve because while technically it is player against player the term really has become to mean a fight between equals or equal forces and that is not what goes on in Eve. Not 100% sure if the original quote was from Patton or not but I recall a quote that basically stated "The object is not to die for your country to but make the other sorry bastard die for his" and THAT is what battles in Eve is about.
Fights in Eve are territorial in nature and focused around defending or acquiring territory it is not about some silly jousting tournament where everyone stands around watching a fight between to knights on horses and says how handsome the winner is. It is about killing your opponent and taking their stuff.
There are consequences in dieing in Eve and if I am rigged out with an expensive set of implants flying a custom ship and stumble into a bad situation I am not going to sit around waiting to get killed just to adhere to someone elses sense of what is honor. Conversely if I start a fight it will be with intention of destroying their ship and probably podding them though I am not a big fan of podding someone personally.
Large scale fleet actions in Eve are amazing but again that is not PvP and it's not RvR or anything else currently played in MMOs. It is a military battle and if you plan to win you need to fight that way.
WoW is a great game and provides lot of opportunities for PvP of the kind many people want and people who don't want this should consider playing WoW or something similar.
No one Pvps to get upgrades.
Eve is mostly about preparation before the actual encounter.
Pvpers have many reasons to pvp not just Isk and stuff.
Ask around every Pvpers gameplay experience and style is totally different.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
And of course, the last comment is the best summation that could be made. Some games are meant to provide totally fair and balanced combat (I think they are called first person shooters), and some MMORPG's try to balance PVP with things like arena's and battlegrounds (WOW comes to mind).
For some folks, this is what PVP is all about, and they should stick with games that support said playstyle.
For the rest of us, there is EVE.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Spot on.
What an EvE player calls PvP has little to do with the PvP of a WoW player. We mean different things and because of that we tend to dismiss the figths of other games as not PvP or crappy PvP or whatever, when in fact we are talking about completely different styles of play.
Played: UO, SWG, TR, WoW, AoC, EvE
Playing:
Interested in: JGE, LotR, TSW
PvP in EVE is good for the very reason that it is quite realistic. Every action has consequences. And you have everything from small pirate gangs to huge alliancies fighting for resources and territory in varying degree.
Just like in real life, you only try to fight the battles you can win. It is not always possible, but you try to do your best. Risk taking is part of the formula. The PvP strategy on scale of large corporations to alliances requires similar things that a preparation for a real war would. Anything from diplomacy to scouting/spying, knowning terrain and knowing your self and the enemy, choosing your terrain and of course the dreaded logistics. After that you have to start looking at the roles of leadership and so on. On top of that all, your economic capablitity has to be able to support warfare. There will be losses and attrition warfare is pointless due to the strain it puts on your economy and logistics.
I can appreciate that the EVE PvP can seem dull to instant gratification types, who enjoy their carefree and safe instanced PvP in games like WoW. EVE can be much more complex and some people just do not have required patience or intelligence to get that far in order to enjoy it. Or they simply want instant gratification (which EVE does not do so well) - most of do from time to time, but I would never ever want EVE to be designed for that type of gameplay. Plus there are much better games for it.
If you want more arcade space MMO, there are few coming along shortly.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Its exactly the same in any PvP game (strategy, shooter or instanced MMO battle) just most of the PvP games have much smaller scale PvP where its more easy to step back or attack. Peoples name it fast placed combat. In EvE strategy is much more deeper and with proper strategy and skill group of players can defeat much more stronger oponents.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
You have no idea how wars are fought then. What you refer to is a 'sports' game where both sides have equal numbers. Or something like Boxing, Basketball, UFC, blah blah. All 'fair'
WAR--- there is no 'fair'. You bring superior force. If you bring less numbers then you hit-and-run. Kill what u can and blaze
Oh please... you want to call sports dull and war fun? Really? You like to play basketball 10 against 3? Is it fun for anyone? Really? If you choose to play only on the "winning side" you are a very small person. And do not try to preach about what is war, that is just sad.
I never did say sports are not fun. I like to watch basketball and go outside and shoot some hoops. But that is not war-- it's just fun competition.
I can respect why some may like war, or in game terms, gankfest, but don't go saying it is the best thing out there. You really have to look into yourself why you do PvP. I do it because I love the challenge. I don't even need to win as long as the match is good and "tight".
That is the difference between you and I. My enemies are scum and do not deserve fair fights. They deserve to get bottlenecked into systems and destroyed by 24/7 camps til they have suffered extreme loss. Real war- sees a conclusion. Sports games- they are just light hearted activites you do to entertain the crowd. In a war, real consequences are incurred.
Being a guy beating up another guy who is tied up is not fun. It is certainly not fun to be the guy tied up. The act is not fun to watch from the sidelines either. A little extreme, black and white example but think about it.
Who says? It is awesome fun to totally crush your enemy and break their morale.
Oh and I do play Eve, not because its great, actually far from it, but because I have exhausted all other options and it is, with its flaws, sufficient atleast. I can enjoy it.
Good, fly safe because war is coming to Empire in a big way these days. There will no longer be a safe place to hide. you will learn to appreciate war or suffer the consequences of your inactions
Agh, why do you make us sound like WoW players? What do you think EVE is? We go to some designated area in deep space and pvp each other and then the last team standing keeps the spoils and gets rich? So you think we pvp and pvp til we get enough ISK to buy new ships?
This ain't WoW. This is EVE. Wars are 'expensive'. Wardecs cost isk. Ship loss cost isk. And even when you pop all your enemy most of the time they drop crappy loots that is little compensation for my Ishtar I'm risking (ishtar is uninsurable HAC).
PVP is a costly thing. Sure, some people make profit via ransoms and what have have you but its not easy like you make this out to be. We PVP for fun. For some, killing haulers is fun. For some, popping defense stuff is fun. Hell I like shooting other blues (friendlies) cause i dont like everyone in my Alliance.
This is EVE. If you want fair fights then good luck finding those. I've never seen a fair fight that i can recall and probably when I did see one they were bait or something
Granted, pointless ganking does take place, as in any mmo with open world pvp, but what I was referring to is that EvE doesn't provide for pvp just for the sake of pvp to see who is better at pvp. (unless players agree to that before they fight.) Generally speaking at least one of the combatants has some stake in the outcome of pvp, which is why I don't refer to it as pointless. PvP takes place in the context of the world in which the game is played in. That is satisfying for some, not for others, but I wouldn't label it as a flaw of the game.
Agreed.
'Pointless' pvp, from my perspective, is the kind of non-consequential epeen waving that the OP seems to be looking for. Want a fair and evenly matched fight? Play an fps. Everyone's even, nothing is at stake, and you can kill repetitively and for no reason (beyond leader boards) to your heart's content.
PVP in EVE is very strategic because of the potential consequences, i.e. you actually have something to fight for besides meaningless bragging rights.
This is a video of us smashing a fleet outnumbered, if you cant pvp you need to practice, it doesnt take numbers to win the game Now if they came with 17 gank armageddons with eccm, ya they would of won from pure dps, but they didnt, they flew dumb setups and lost, stop whining and learn how to pvp, EVE is the only game where you lose something when you die, you dont just respawn and say "Man we lost", man up little buddy.
http://www.reddit.com/user/nazdock
All fights in EvE are fair: everyone gets the same options at character creations, can train the same skills, can fly the same ships.
The results are up to you.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Personally I like a balance of the two pvp concepts used today. Imo Eve seems too harsh ( I don't play) and WoW/ Guildwars seems too sportive. I don't want to risk 10 hours of what I consider boring or mundane game play in order to experance pvp 10 secounds of a risky pvp fight. Mostly because I really don't want to do all the grinding, gathering of meterials or doing missions for Isk. I can see the realism to it but I mean If I wanted a game to be realistic I would not be playing it. My real experance with this type of extremely high risk / high reward pvp was in Darkfall. I thought It would be really fun but even a good guild is going to lose people in a pvp battle unless it is a total gank. I was left with two options gank people or play 10 hours a day to get get good fights with a chance of losing 10 hours of time invested. I think a happy meduim needs to be reached between the two extremes and for me I found that In Shadowbane and maybe Eve really does have that balance but I doubt it.
Guild items I am not referencing like castles, corp stations ect, because you personally are not just grinding them up.
I have yet to find a MMORPG where this was not the standard.
Gank, Zergs all being the usual way to fight.
Only in forced balanced FPS type games, far from MMORPG's will you find that PvP is 32v32 or 2v2 etc.
The day you find a MMORPG where PvP is not about ganking the oponent or noobs... Point me in the direction hehe.
I have yet to find a MMORPG where this was not the standard.
Gank, Zergs all being the usual way to fight.
Only in forced balanced FPS type games, far from MMORPG's will you find that PvP is 32v32 or 2v2 etc.
The day you find a MMORPG where PvP is not about ganking the oponent or noobs... Point me in the direction hehe.
The above poster said WoW arena's, Guildwars, Warhammer Senarios ect.
I think its more of a spectruim that each mmo fall into from the extreme of Eve, Darkfall and the other extreme of Wow arena, Guildwars and Warhammer instances.
Ganking is a fight in which the ganker is almost certain to win. As with successful zerg. Everything else is within a competitive range. It does not require the fight be equal numbers exactly or in a exact and unchanging enviroment.
Real war and combat is harsh cruel and unforgiving, I understand that. I also disagree. If you were the president of a country in Southern Europe and decided to declare independance and forcefully killed and removed weak and helpless people from your country would you get away with it without being remanded? If newbs in game are to be considered soldiers then why is it when American forces encounter enemy soldiers that do not attack them and posess little threat we cannot just line them up and shoot them all?
I think ganking newbs in the real world is unrealistic. In fact anyone who during recent history who has Killed weak and defenceless people in war time was considered an evil historical figure.
First off..
In Eve, if you don't want to grind, you can buy a GTC and sell it for isk. Legally.
Second, and more importantly..
Eve does have that balance. An example is being a pirate. Take risks. I befriended quite a few pirates in Eve, and most of them challange cruisers and above in their frigates - and win.
At the same time, 0.0 alliances fight a lot and roam a lot. They may not be in a 1:1 person ratio, but in "strength" it's often close.
If you decide to start at one point or another, I suggest you try piracy. There are a lot of good pirate corps out there which take in noobs (even day 1 noobs) and train them up. I met a guy who started two weeks ago and already got his first cruiser kill.. In a frigate. 1v1. Not because the cruiser had a terrible fit or was a noob, but because the 'new-guy' knew more about combat tactics, and used them to his advantage.
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The trick to PvP in Eve is having your enemies thinking they will win, while in reality you have a trick up your sleeve or can fight outnumbered.
It's difficult to force an engagement on someone who wants to avoid you.
"Eve has some of the crappiest PvP in a game."
I agree. I like sandbox games and I like PvP and EVE has both but....
It's not my cup of tea to say the least.
I experimented a bit and put a "space" wallpaper on my work PC and worked on some spreadsheets...and it was just like playing EVE....true story!
So.. Most of the people who colonized the US (as well as other places..) are evil?
Napoleon?
[insert names of the leaders of the American Civil War here] were evil?
Richard Nixon?
A lot of people kill weak and defenceless people in war times. It's civil casulties. Efforts are made to reduce these casulties, but they are inevitable.
Also. "Newbs" would be people with little training, like fairly green conscripts.
Not weak and defenceless.
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I dont understand why would you think EVE pvp is a spreadsheet? The heart pounding in my chest is real when I'm flying something hail marry that I just really dont want to lose.