Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
A team of crack developers does not a successful project make.
Kyriesunset
Member Posts: 162
Lets take a look at what tkksnow had to say today:
With the scope of the project(s) scaled back, and the correct human resources capacity, we're no longer working on a mega-blockbuster MMORPG budget. There's a skilled, small group of crack developers working. It's arguable that this is how it should have always been (but I would have never been here to begin with then).
In the past, people in the company talked up the investment funds. It's something we can't hide when things stalled out. Yes, there was a ton of money invested. And I think we discovered, it doesn't have to be like that again to produce.
Interpreted this means: We don’t have enough people to put out a quality game, even after cutting features left and right. Our ‘skilled’ (people with little game experience that stuck around during our no-pay period) are spinning their wheels, working long hours to help further Gary’s ponzi scheme before the lawsuits hit and we're out of money again.
We have let go our skilled developers so we could save some funds in hope of attracting at least one more programmer to the team.
Because of our bold moves, we now do not have to give credit to all those developers who worked the past four years on SGW! Look at all the completion bonus money we’ll save (plus we’ll get all their stock options back! ) Of course, even with so few devs, we still have the large-sized administrative staff !
Comments
Apparently, my voice on the matter is old. I hit the old investor blog (stargateworldsinvestors.blogspot.com) and saw that T. W. Anderson is of the same opinion, just more eloquently said, but right on target:
Well, from the posts today from Tkksnow on the official forums we can see this:
With the scope of the project(s) scaled back, and the correct human resources capacity, we're no longer working on a mega-blockbuster MMORPG budget. There's a skilled, small group of crack developers working. It's arguable that this is how it should have always been (but I would have never been here to begin with then).
In the past, people in the company talked up the investment funds. It's something we can't hide when things stalled out. Yes, there was a ton of money invested. And I think we discovered, it doesn't have to be like that again to produce.
__________________
In other words...all their real developers are gone. The people requiring actual pay. The skilled people. I'm sorry, but I absolutely don't believe that "crack" developers are willing to work for below-realistic budget numbers, regardless of how passionate about a project they might be. CME are the masters of spin, if nothing else, and with the average salary of a game developer being around 70k a year, I just don't see any actual developers on-hand who are willing to work for anything less. As we can see, anyone with any skill has moved on to other companies and other games, because like any skilled worker in any trade/industry they want to get paid for what they do.
Secondly is the comment that they are no longer working on an AAA budget. In other words...SGW is dead in the water. If anything is released, expect it to be sub-standard, sub-quality, and not to expect anything for at least a year, because with such drastically reduced numbers and all of the REAL developers moving on to other projects CME is left facing the reality that the only people they can afford to hire are either people who have other means of staying afloat (large bank accounts) and the willingness to risk another 2-3 years of their careers on a game that will never be anywhere close to an AAA title, or interns or newbies who are willing to work for little/nothing. In both cases it boils down to the same thing: they don't have more than 10-15 people working on the game. And while that might have worked 10 years ago for games like Ultima, we are in the 21st century. If you want to make an AAA title and have it be successful you have to invest 80+ million dollars and have that money be spent on ACTUAL development of the IP...not on random crap that has nothing to do with the game.
In the meantime, CME has released information on their forums that they are coming out with a different game in the meantime...another Stargate game that is taking precedence over what used to be their flagship product, the Stargate: Worlds project. In other words...they blew all their money in bad investments and are now trying to recoup their losses in any way possible...by releasing a sub-standard non-MMORPG product simply to try and make a few dollars to keep their "crack" team of interns and newbie developers working.
So CME has some crack developers working on the case now? Very interesting, I can just imagine the scene in the office in a few months,
I mean you've gotta be on crack in the first place to believe you'll get paid on a regular basis by "Team Whiting"! This is gonna be fun photoshopping some new pics
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I think they are going to take or have taken a lot of the work they have alreadydone for SGW and make it into SGB... I think SGB will just be like static scenes we can expect from SGW.
In other words, SGW is on Indefinite Hold, but without saying Indefinite Hold, as Indefinite Hold implies Cancellation; therefore, furthermore and henceforth, Indefinite Hold is a bad term to announce in public, thus there will be no usage of the words Indefinite Hold, since that would further reduce confidence be it by investor or consumer, which in turn spells doom and gloom causing an unrecoverable downward spiral with dogs and cats getting along together and mass hysteria, all because of using Indefinite Hold, and so a different approach is warranted (a period mark would go here)
I really do not know why I typed out that run-on sentence, I guess trying to provide a bit of Monty Python dry humor.
And now onto something completely different...
Well actually not really, but thought I would type that as well.
What tkksnow mentioned at the end was that creating a 3D MMO does not require big millions and a large team. A successful 3D MMO can be created for under $20 million, even under $2 million, well even at $250,000 and with a small team. Though it does take planning by rolling the MMO out in phases (or known as a slow roll out). MMORPG's are essentially living games that do not require the need to be fully completed to launch. For example, develop the core system first (networking infrastructure, in-game chat/comms, etc) and then the most critical component, which is likely to be the Combat System. Get that working first, tested and made into a game of its own. Sure it won't draw in a lot of people, but it will draw in some. Then at this point it is a matter of installing the next building block to the Combat System, say Trading between players, then onto simple Quest missions. For SGW this would all still be within Stargate Command, no other planets and no other races, those get added on later.
MMORPG's should not be made in the same convention as stand-along games.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
From what tkksnow said yesterday on the official forums Stargate Worlds will be scaled back to get it out. Looks like CME are getting desperate for some money.
CME has been desperate for money for over a year now, these are merely the last death throws of CME.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
A little birdie told me today at our lunch that they are doing the same thing with Stargate Battles with Deadlands.... in fact, Deadlands Battles!
Actually Deadlands never really came together as a mmo as all it was just toons running around shooting each other with old fashion western guns. Expect the same Quality and thoughtfulness to go into Stargate Battles.
Well if these mini projects that have now taken the front seat ever get released (which I doubt) I don't see anyone buying it except for the few headcases left on the official forums. I then think "What are the investors going to say when Stargate/Deadlands Battles gets released and no one buys it?". I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they give Gary a raking over the coals and threaten another lawsuit. To be honest I don't think it'll make it that far before the present investor lawsuit has CME/Gary Whiting in recievership!
However if you want a positive spin on this head over to the official forums and have a look here click , each morning I have a look at this thread to give me a good chuckle to set me up for the rest of the day. I enjoy such chesnuts as,
"i think there has been some progress in that media blackout, CME was (and is) in"
Sorry?
"Scaled back does not equal less or "worse" quality."
I agree, it equals shit quality with no customer support!
"Well, I have to say this scale back thing is just about the best news I have heard in a long time.
This basically confirms that they have a viable solution on how to release the game after the bad economy dealt them some critical wounds."
Nearly wet myself laughing on reading this one, Sounds like he's posting from North Korea!
"Actually the opposite. It's not scaled back, because it already exists in the form that it is, just that it's not going to be all as big as they originally suggested. So the game will not be scaled back, but the publicity, staff, and dream shall be.
So the speculation, is what part of the big big dream won't be in the final release, not "what fat are they cuting" as the title might imply."
OK this post is a candidate for 3 reasons moderators should post with alt accounts!
"I bet that it's just a minor set-back, and I'm pretty sure they won't make anything less than planned, just maybe a little less "perfect" or things might go a bit slower, but eventually when they start to get money from people buying the game and the monthly pays, I think that SGW will really start to flourish."
I guess it's not only the devs that are smoking the pipe(dream?) at CME!
Aaron you should ask to get that thread retitled "The best and worst of the FanOri", it's nearly all a collection of delusions based around the lies told by Gary Whiting to prevent his pyramid scheme MMOGULs from collapsing. But I wouldn't have those crazy fanbois stop for a moment as this is far more entertaining than any "scaled back" aka crap game team Whiting launches to try and pacify MMOGULs and invenstors.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
CME has been desperate for money for over a year now, these are merely the last death throws of CME.
Death throes.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/throes
And you are correct, CME is dying, and it amuses me.
You know, I was just talking about how poor the education system is in the United States, and how much better it is in Ireland the UK.
Thanks for proving me wrong.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Wow, there is a lot of self-delusion in that thread.
This whole thing makes me sick and disgusted. MGM needs to step in and defend the integrity of the IP, especially with SG-Universe right around the corner. Surely they hold some power as far as the licensing is concerned.
I don't entirely understand the MLM scheme, but I do know it reeks of failure. It's not just a scam, but its not even a plausible method of funding the game, even if the top dog ends up being CME and not Whiting as an individual.
I was/am in the beta, and without being specific, polishing what they have won't be near enough for the game to sell as an MMO. It's a casual game at best. They entered beta way too early, not to mention they seemed to squander all the time and money they'd put into it before hand. I've personally written this off as a total failure and I am hoping it never sees the light of day.
Yeah, that forum is pretty comical..... at least we now know what happaned to "Baghdad Bob" after he lost his job for Saddam.
You mean BSG-Universe. It doesn't look like Stargate to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If you have given up on the game, why the hell can't you be specific?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Oh.. now that is priceless!!
And to stay on topic, just.. wow. I'm about ready to pull out some deeds for a bridge up in New York and tell them the proceeds go to CME? They've been swallowing worse tripe than that hook, line and sinker. Why can't I cash in?
The staff comment was actually a direct response to the question ''Has restaffing been finished? Are you able to give an updated number on who's working on (interim title/SGW)?'.
Though I didn't use the word 'dev', that was the obvious angle in the question.
Why is Joe Unger’s portfolio page so important to the future of SGB/SGW you ask? Well, let me tell you! Oh and you should probably grab copies of the screen shots as I’m sure {mod edit} Shane will have him take down this site soon.
First, you have to know some history of the Superstition Studios & Shane Hensley deal. Some of the most important people now working on SGB/SGW are Shane’s special friends that have been working with him since Pinnacle Entertainment (both Shane and the producer still work [and maybe more?] for Pinnacle and this helps explain how some had the means to last the CME no-pay period). Actually, step it back to Cryptic Studios where Shane brought in many of his Pinnacle workers before he was let go. He was bringing them into CME/Superstition (having CME pay the relocation expenses, not Pinnacle) before the CME money tit ran dry.
Superstition Studios was first working on their MMO version of Deadlands with the Hero engine. If you look at Joe Unger’s portfolio, you will see some screen shots of a few areas they put together. Simply put, it looks like a bad WOW game, and the team had many excuses about why the game looked so poorly: not enough resources, not enough staff, couldn’t license the engine so less engine functionality, etc. But now they can develope cool shit with a small crack team? Give me a break!
Let us move onto First-person battle Deadlands. They threw this together in the Unreal engine after the Hero engine fell apart. Not much to say about this, it is what it is.
While this ‘crack team’ will be able to ninja all art assets previously created for SGW, it is very obvious their quality levels are less than par on the stuff they were able to put together on their own. Granted, they inherited a few CME artists (one has some talent), and that will lift them a few levels. Even so, they are under Shane’s creative leadership and their past work shows what he is capable of directing. This is nowhere near AAA level (maybe B level ) – even for a first person shooter.
I was looking at the new Game Informer today, and noticed there was no mention or hype of any of the battle games CME is now assembling. Imagine that!
Gary Whiting and the Sr. Management at CME are still supporting the MMOGULS mentality of getting a game out with the Stargate IP to save Gary, and nothing else.
Those were some pretty blocky screenies, rather reminiscent of the SGW screenies that Khestral promised every two weeks (whatever happened to that promise?). I don't know exactly why it's so blocky, no AA? Crap artists? No one really gave a crap? All three?
It is a tragedy that so much went to these cash sink studios, full of overpaid and under worked dossers that only cared about staying on the SGW gravy train. All they end up producing after nearly four years is something like a very bad unfinished F2P western MMO with a broke back mountain meets tacky sex shop theme!
The insights you give into Shane and his motivations cast further light on his Q&A and why he skirted around the real issues and told bare faced lies when confronted. Telling me his studio had seperate funding but unable to explain why it ran out of money at the exact same time as all the other studios and Firesky. The guy is just another talking head for team Whiting that has produced a sub standard cowboy game on a AAA budget.
Spin it how you like Shane, CME and all those cash sink studios have failed to produce anything before the deadline of 2008. All that CME/cash sink studios have left is 5 real developers, a string of debts to former employees, the IRS, investors, landlords and some MMOGULs memberships!
I would love to ask Gary if MMOGULs is still in pre launch phase! Last year he promised all those poor saps that SGW would have launched by now and they would be raking in cash preying on "retail orphans" in game! Seems that neither MMOGULs nor CME will ever leave pre-launch, maybe Deadlands will include the MMOGULs Ranch and you can go there in game and hold a broke back mountain party with some team Whiting NPCs?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
If you have given up on the game, why the hell can't you be specific?
Forum rules and breach of NDA contract...should have been pretty clear.
All this is irrelevant.. Ive been told, and confirmed through a lawyer, that Bob Guenther is returning to Phoenix on Thursday, going to LA on Friday, and the following week will be talking to a group of people in Phoenix to join him in a BK filing, the law firm that may handle this is the same firm representing Nedra in Phoenix..
Guenther would probably post this info and more BUT Im told he has been banned from the MMORPG Forum..
While CME's problems are not unique....from what I can see.... they do pretty much read like a playbook of how NOT to run a technology (or any other type of) business.
1) Focus - This is probably the biggest killer of startups and something that way too many executives seem to fall prey to... probably it has something to do with Ego. So many failed startups, flush with new investor money, hit the ground planning, thinking and counting (and SPENDING) on winning Olympic Gold Medals in multiple catagories before they have even learned to tie thier own shoe-laces.
The fact is that even just being good enough to be profitable today in even ONE catagory/venture takes alot of hard work, dedication, experience and FOCUS. The shotgun approach does NOT work in the tech industry...it just means you end up with 20 failed ventures instead of one. Even if you have people that have prior industry experience.... they don't neccesarly have experience working with thier current team in thier current situation. It takes TIME to build up a team that works well together and knows how to put together a good product in any ONE catagory.... and even with seperate teams working on seperate projects....it still dilutes managements FOCUS (and investment dollars).
Pretty much all the successfull big players in the Tech industry...the ones that have thier tenticals into multiple verticals and multiple projects.... started out by mastering ONE single product in ONE single vertical. They FOCUSED on what they wanted to excel in....and it wasn't until they had ALREADY mastered it.... that they took on other areas/projects.
If you are a startup and you have more then one big project going at a time....you pretty much have assured yourself that you will fail.
2) It's the Product, stupid - This is another big pitfall that some startups tend to fall into. The ones most vulnerable here tend to be those who's Exec's and owners have Marketing or Sales backgrounds rather then industry background. ((Maybe it's the case of when you work with a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.)) No amount of marketing, slick advertising or spin can make up for NOT HAVING A PRODUCT ((let alone a GOOD product)). That goes TRIPLE for subscription based services ((like MMO's)).
Marketing/Sales guys don't like to think about this because it's not sexy/exciting and doesn't appeal to thier basic instincts.... but the key to success for most businesses is NOT selling a "life-style" or your "personalty"....or an "image" or any of that crap....it's selling a hammer. If you build a good hammer, it will tend to sell, because it has a usefull purpose that it fullfills well. Yeah, there are some people out there that may be able to sell ice-cubes to Eskimos..... but it's alot easier and less risky, even for those guys, to sell something them nice warm blankets (e.g. something that people ACTUALY need/want rather then convince people to need/want something that they don't.))
The best way for most startups to improve thier odds of actualy becoming a functional business is NOT to spend one dime or man-hour of effort on sales/marketing.... until you've actualy assured yourself that you have a Product (preferably a well functioning one) to sell. Heck, I wouldn't even hire a sales/marketing team until you were pretty far along toward launch. This becomes extra important if money is a little tight.
3) 2 + 2 = 4. It's amazing how many "high salaried executives" seem to miss out on the basic lesson that every kid who runs a lemonaide stand learns. You need to control your budget....and be realistic about both your income and your expenses....and make sure that they meet. I'm simply flabbergasted at how many startups can't even track/account for what they've already spent.... let alone accurately forecast what they need to (and can afford to) spend. It's basic, fundemental business 101... you can't skip it....and if you try...you shouldn't be sitting in a corner office. If your not good with financials yourself....hire a reliable accountant/CFO and then LISTEN TO THEM.
Know what you can afford to do and what you can't. Be realistic about your financials....both in terms of income and spend. In the real world....no amount of wishfull thinking make 2 + 2 = 5.
There is no excuse for doing something like not meeting payroll..... because you should know well in advance where you stand financialy ......and know if your not going to meet those numbers so you can take steps to avoid having that happen....like cutting expenses...including jobs if need be. Trust me..... "We are going to have to let you go next month if finances don't improve." is ALOT better (and actualy LEGAL) business practice then "Surprise - Direct Deposit didn't go in today....oh and we haven't paid our Health Insurance Premiums...so hope you didn't take your kids to the DR yesterday." Honestly, if you get down to THAT point....you are better off closing up shop.... and relaunching a new company somewhere down the road when the financial picture looks better. Which leads me to....
4) It's hard to earn a good reputation....but damn near impossible to shed a bad one - This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Both as individuals and as companies..... you've got to be absolutely above board in EVERYTHING you do.... if you are doing things that even APPEAR shady.... let alone actualy ARE shady.... your dooming yourself. People have to be able to TRUST you in order to do business with you....that goes for employees, vendors, consumers, business partners, etc. The only people who will do business with some-one they don't trust are people that are not trust-worthy themselves or who have no other choice....and those are not the type of people that make for a successfull venture.
5) There really is NO FREE LUNCH - Kinda ironic given CME's history...but the basic truth is that the tech industry is a SKILL based industry. Sometimes you can get good deals on people/services. Very occasionaly you run into people for whom monetary considerations aren't that important...... but generaly if you are paying next to nothing for a service/employee... that is generaly equal to the value you are going to recieve from them.
People/companies in this industry that produce high quality work generaly know the value of thier services (at least to SOME degree). Mostly they are highly skilled proffesionals.... with families and other obligations. Very few are going to work for little to no pay...even in a bad economy....and those that do won't be putting thier best efforts into work that they aren't reasonably compensated for. Maybe if you were an actual charity (working on a cure for cancer... feeding the homeless, etc) things might be different..... but no ones going to stop sending thier kids to the doctor so you can rake in bucks from people pretending to run around alien planets blowing stuff up..... and if they do, they need a little reality check themselves.
Let the creative people create. Let the marketing people sell. The two should not work together.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Locking this thread ,as it has gotten way out of hand.