Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Skill caps controversy...
daveospice
Member UncommonPosts: 366
It has come to my attention that you can bring a skill up to 100, and can max all skills available. Well to me, and I mean only to me as far as I know... this is absurd!
If you can have every skill I have, but better... then where's the fair advantage in pvp? The uniqueness and advantage in pvp in most games that allows a lower level to beat a higher level is the fact that maybe they're a mage or a necro and you'er a warrior and if you dodge their spells, and get the element of suprise you can still beat them because they can't fight up close/ you'll disrupt their casting.
But if someone can blast me with 100 magery from afar and then when I finally get close to them whip out a sword and beat me harder than I could them that just doesn't make sense to me and makes me personally feel like I have no chance of beating some of these people.
Even UO had a skill cap of 700 total skill point gains. I liked it, made you have to balance things out. Maybe you wanted 70 wrestling so you were harder to hit as a mage, and as a warrior maybe you wanted 70 magery so you could recall/cast heal etc...
There's no such thing as "builds" in this game, we're all playing the same exact character... so when it comes down to numbers, some people are going to beat you plain and simple on the numbers game. As far as skill goes... AOE spells eliminate the problems range have with skill.
Comments
and thats why i dont like darkfall, everyone just grinds every thing to max ugh, all clones
Are you going to create another thread for every issue you have with the game? Why didnt you just post this in your previous one.
In regards to the character skills, I trully think EVERYONE should play the same character so no one bitches anymore. If the damage delt is similar between mage/archer/melee then pick the one you are best at and go with it - that's real player skill -
In Asheron's Calls later years we had spec sword/massive DPS mage in PVP. Who won depended on how good the player was.
Now this being said I believe they will put a skill cap in because my stance is not popular with the RPG crowd, so dont worry about it too much
a skill cap would be awesome but your concern is a little bit nullified by the huge amount of time it would take to reach max skills (each one you max out increases the time it takes to cap the next...and so on and so forth)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
With the exception of UO none of the sandbox games I currently play have a cap.
Eve, Ryzom and on the rare occasion I play DF it's similar to those other games.
Why do you feel the need to grind every skill? I don't see why a player with a skill of 100 magery couldn't take on a player with a skill of archery and melee at 100.
It's not like you can shoot arrows and melee at the same exact time. You can't toss a bolt and swing a 2h Pike at the same time.
So I would suggest getting one major offensive combat skill to 100 stop bitching and just play.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Because no skill cap keeps people playing loger since character customization is near infinit.
Same in Eve and Ryzom (both games have never had a character learn every skill).
If people had a cap they would pick a skill set and sooner or later would unsub due to boredom.
It's the appeal of always making a character better in someway that keeps people playing.
I've said this from the beggining, A sandbox game is all about character customization and progression much more than any other type of mmo.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
LOL As if maxout skills would help you in PvP if you suck?
And as i have said in similar threads. If you think everyone is clones in DF because of skils, what do you think about max level characters in woW? There everyone is maxout to.
Who cares about WoW? Everyone knows in themeparks everyone is a copy of one another.
Bringing up WoW is invalid, A sandbox games appeal is in the flexibility of its skill system (the reason people keep playing).
DF has a decent one and I personally think caping it would mess up the game. Only flaw in DFs system was the length of time it took to skill up now that it's being improved no one should complain.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Who cares about WoW? Everyone knows in themeparks everyone is a copy of one another.
Bringing up WoW is invalid, A sandbox games appeal is in the flexibility of its skill system (the reason people keep playing).
DF has a decent one and I personally think caping it would mess up the game. Only flaw in DFs system was the length of time it took to skill up now that it's being improved no one should complain.
Well spoken : )
I was a bit ironic and used a bit of sarcasm, but i failed with that.
You cant really compare uo's 700 points to darkfalls massive investment. in reality you would have to have around 4000 points to be comparable, because there are so many passive skills and subskills to raise that have an impact.
In darkfall currently, there is no point putting in a skill cap till the skills are somewhat balanced, and the mechanics are set. I would be more intersted in a selectable cap, say something like 800 points for primary skills, and nothing for subskills or spells at all. This way you could train in everything, but only have limited use of spell schools/skills depending on what you want to use, it would also add a tactical element to the game, do you go fire/air, fire/earth, or do you go witchcraft/necro etc, or do you focus on melee/archery and try to outthink your opponent.
RIght now, AV's focus should be on figuring out the basics of melee/archery and magic combat. Magic is pretty much it because of its wide range of abilities, its ease of use, and its very useful AOE"s in larger battles, where you can disable more people sooner/faster. Putting in skill caps wont really solve any issues, if the general abilities and basic uses of the various combat skills are not figured out.
that's the whole point! Those passive skills shouldn't have to be trained! Thus diversification. Lets say you want to train another mage skill well... you might have to sacrifice on magic resist to do so. I just liked the feeling in Shadowbane, UO, etc.... when my character was diverse and different and had a rare corner of the market on goods as well (crafting).
Lets face it the diversification isn't for us normal casual players, it's for the hardcore players who grind every skill out and for the macroers.
I read all over the forums about how there's tons of people maxed out in all mage skills and in sieges they just cycle through their AOE spells. That's not skill, that's just slaughter and way more potent than melee and archery.
Eve is a totally different game. Eve isn't skill based as it is technology based. Basically you're learning a new technology, which allows you to equip a little better equipment. In eve from the very beginning you remain competetive and can fight other ships early on and have a chance at winning. In this game at the very beginning you are cannon fodder.
in UO magery was powerful and most people went magery. Still, if they did they had to sacrifice in a lot of different areas. You should only be able to be a specialized person in a few areas. Instead they should open up more char slots to fix the problem of people wanting to try other things.
God damnitt give the new players a chance at beating macroers, etc!
Imagine how diverse the class styles could be! If you have limited points, then you couldn't train every spell in a spell field to GM! Thus destroying the powerful diversification magery has over melee/archery.
Your confusing the issues. First off the disparity was based on the fact that the skill gains were glacial at the start of the game, and have since been improved a few times. Skill gains currently are very well paced, so that even a new player can jump into the game and if they focus, have some high level decent skills in a path they choose. in a matter of weeks to less then a month a player who plays 10-20 hours a week can be competitive, its just a matter of focusing on a specialized area similar to eve or other mmo's which use the system. UO today is vastly different from what it was 10 years ago. putting in skill caps at this point do nothing because the system isnt balanced, all it will do is force more people down the magic path because its the most viable combat going. If you cant handle working towards something for 2-3 weeks then there is no point even playing a persistant world game. Pre- Patch skil gain rates and competitive balance amongst newer vs older players were an issue, the major problem with that issue has been resolved, as gaining skill is very easy honestly.
The Magic issue right now, is due to the fact that magic in most cases is the easiest combat group to hit players with, has the most damage potential, and has the only potential to attack multiple targets,outside of siege weapons/defensive cannons. This becomes especially true as the size of battles increase, in a 1v1 or a small group an archer or melee charecter has the potential to make use of his abilities to make them shine. As player numbers in any battle increase, the abilities of meelee and to a lesser extent archery are negated because of magics abilities to do mass damage to larger groups.
with the 3 skills here are how i see it breaking down. The problem is that magic has alot of benifits and no relative drawbacks compared to the other 2 combat styles. No one in DF is just a mage or just a archer, and to be honest i like it that way. That said there is a reason people are complaining, and it has to do with combat balance, not charecter development.
Melee - good damage, suffers from good ping requirements, have to close the range to be effective and be able to stick to opponents, short range, can be blocked parried
Archery - comparable damage to melee, single target, can be parried or force to miss an opponent. Uses line of sight and ballistics to determine flight path, long range
magic - highest potential damage in game, longest skill grind, Long range, able to hit multiple targets, easiest to hit enemies with both aoe/single target, single target spells use los, can be blocked parried, no cooldown or delay between various combat spells because you can cycle spells as long as mana holds out, best utility in game as far as benifit, buffs,debuffs, utility spells etc.
Okay so after some careful consideration of what is wrong with the system (yes I was that bored.... killing goblins... for the umpteenth hour).
First off, let me just say that the pve in this game was an after thought. More of a means to acquire money and resources than to actually be fun. In fact it's the worse PVE I've ever experienced. Shadowbane did it better. The mobs don't drop loot you need to stay afloat other than money and the game hardly rewards you for killing harder stuff and doesn't share experience with a group. Want me to continue going? I will another post. This game was centered around PVP, so in my opinion having as much grind now (even though it's less than before) is actually a major concern since people coming into this game are not going to be expecting as much of a grind, especially when they throw around "FPS RPG mix" in the title. When I see FPS I think hell ya, no grind. Just pure PVP. As it should be, since really the only people that want a skill difference between each player are the ones who are ganking newbies starting out. I honestly don't believe in grinding, and after having played WOW< EVE < UO< SB < AC < Horizons < you name it... I'm ****ING TIRED OF THE GOD DAMN GRIND to get to the level where you can ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME. But I love persistent worlds. So I'll do the grind, and the only reason the grind is even there is so we pay more by stretching the game time out to "Beat it" before we quit playing.
Keep in mind that most people coming to this game out of interest were UO and shadowbane players amongst other WOW players etc...
In UO and Shadowbane, you can max a character in 3 to 7 days fairly easily. However in shadowbane, the pve was bad for some classes so you had to find a group or run a 2nd client with a AOE caster. Still, I remember I could level up easily in 3 days in Shadowbane.
What would be a good idea is to add more combat abilities, and to diversify each combat class. Right now melee have only 4 abiltiies, and that's the least amount of melee abilities in any game I've ever come across. Even Lineage 2, which is a horrible game... skill diversity wise... has more abilities.
What they need to do is add bleeding attacks, poison attacks, etc... I know they're against stuns, because stuns do often times ruin the pvp experience when it comes to group combat (perma stun anyone?) however a slow attack is a MUST for a melee.
bludgeoning weapons should have a smash attack that slows targets, while slashing could have a hamstring attack that slows and bleeds. BLudgeoning could also deal more damage to armor, and so on and so forth... They really need to diversify the damn melee classes. There's absolutely no reason to go melee when it's BORING because all you have is a auto attack, a power attack, a pull closer and push away attack which are only good for pvp really...
As far as capping skills go, if they don't cap the max amount of skills you can train... then I personally will not subscribe after october. I know a lot of people that feel the same, and one thing I've noticed with a game like this, is that 1 out of every 10 people is a good person, the rest are all jail bait. Extremely rude, very aggressive through communication and gameplay style. They almost always resort to name calling, insaults, and so on... just look through the forums. One out of every 10 posts on there is pretty much an attack on the poster. The community in this game is only good if you join a clan that has decent people in it, but for those new players starting man they have a hell of a lot to go through... Pks killing you, always feeling small in comparison skill wise to those 6 month veterans... never being heard on the forums and being attacked verbally... hard mobs to kill always having to grind goblins... I mean, the game is not new player friendly at all.
I honestly think the game won't make it a year unless they start focusing on the new player experience. Right now, if it continues this way within a year this game will be dead. I've seen plenty of games die that were designed better. Shadowbane and UO are prime examples of games that either had to change (UO) or died off (SB). SB never made the game new player friendly, you could be killed anytime once you got on the main land... SB even had a starting area that was safe, but it didn't matter because as soon as you got out into the mainland you were still a noob in comparison level wise.
IMHO, TWO THINGS AND IMPORTANT THINGS need skill caps
MASTERY COMBAT AKA High end magic, melee masteries, archery masteries.
And CRAFTING( or at least crafting masteries).
Everything else should remain the same, and should be required to be skilled up.
Skill caps or prestige classes are a must imo for this game survival, even if its a unlock/lock hard cap, or a soft cap with skill decay. One or the other it needs to be in.
I hate to admit this, but part of me sort of agrees with Einstein. I do think that allowing every character to have maxed skills leads to player skill eventually being much more important than pure numbers; however I don't think it's entirely the way to go. Personally I would rather characters have roles like in Eve. That is, having Battleships maxed doesn't do anything for you if you are playing as a frigate. In Guild Wars players had to choose up to 8 skills to take with them at any one time, even though they may have had hundreds available. A system like in Eve or Guild Wars would make the game more appealing to me, though I concede not to everyone.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
First off if your still killing goblins honestly, your never going to progress. they lack the resources you need to progress. Also your exactly right, PVE is just a resource in this game. that doesnt mean it cant be somewhat entertaining but just like in most FPS games once you figure out MOB AI behaviour, its easy to kill almost anything , especialy with archery or magic, melee is a bit harder but still easy with a partner. also your complaining about pve loot, but the mobs your killing are designed for brand new players, you need to get out an explore a bit, there are many mobs that drop loot or are farmable solo , and almost everyting in the game is farmable with a partner. i routinely generate 4-5k cash per hour plus random rare drops and reagents. I have been doing this since my archer was around 50, the key is you have to find the type of mobs that you need to progress, ie mobs with reagents for magic, mobs with good bows for archery.
PVE does 3 things, its a resource generator for items/components that you dont get via harvesting or gathering, basically cash, gear, reagents. second, is that it is a training tool for players, it helps them figure out the combat mechanics, how to use line of sight, blocking, ranged combat mechanics etc etc. third, it still is the best place to create ad hoc pvp, because pve gives players the one resoruce they cant get anywhere else, cash. As far as pve, i find it easy, but it does take a different mindset, you have to approach it more in terms of FPS style play then anything else.
They are already planning to add improvements to both melee and archery in october. As it stands now power attacks also do the type of damage you talk about, based on weapon type. Axes debuff, daggers poison etc. the problem is the mechanics dont work very well for the special attacks, and most players cant land them beause of the mechanics. Very few players are skilled enough to use special attacks and be successful.
I agree with you the new player situation is not good, and is further hampered by the fact that even if advanced players want to protect newbies, its not really viable, because there is no quick way for an advanced player to travel to newbie lands. Having an empire/sb style newbie area where only new players can attack each other would be good imo, but it would still have to have some kind of cap or limit on time where players get the boot. Hopefully improvements will come. As far as the community, well frankly its just the internet, DF might attract more bottom feeders then other games, im sure it does due to style, but meh, 75% of the internet is porn, 15% is just idiots, and 5% is actually useful/entertaining.
Community is what you make of it, personally i dont get bothered by the forums, i find them amusing in all honesty, but its the same as UO free shards like corp-por back in the day, populated by idiots. As far as game community, this game focuses on clans/guilds and groups far more then individuals. if you dont want to join one, then its going to be a very tough road. very few people are good at solo play in darkfall, very few are ever known for being good at solo play.
As far as skills, well this isnt UO or SB, and if your wanting a clone of those games, you can still find it. If there was a skill cap in place and competitive balance amongst the melee/archery/magic skilsets id be fine with it. as it stands now there isnt any kind of balance, and wont be for quite some time from what i can see. I would like to see a cap for crafting and harvesting skills, so that it forces more of an economy to be generated. If you must have a skill cap id just unsub and wait 6-12 months and check back into this game.
If you really want some PVE tips pm me ill give ya some mobs and information that might help.
Well there's an easy fix to preventing people from getting too high on newbie island...
Just make all the monsters, rocks and tree's never let them gain past a certain point. Just put a counter in. Simple enough. After all people shouldn't be able to hide out at goblins until they're 100 in everything anyway.