Whether the answer was good or bad they were held accountable for the decisions made in their game as the developer of that world. Somehow the problem got worked out for better or worse in the game and most times you continued playing.
This thing about GMs is probably the most correct thing about this article, but I don't think you meant it this way.
If your GM / DM pulled a move you might not be happy with, you could argue with them but they were in complete power to say, "No, your character does this or they die right now." GMs / DMs weren't all beneficent creatures of light looking to make the world a better place through dice rolling; some where jerks who loved to lord their power over the players and others were people who sometimes executed a good idea badly or made mistakes. They might argue what a power or ability could do right before you used it and effectively 'nerf' it in the middle of play.
Your options were to either go on with what the GM / DM wanted or to leave the game. Such as it is with MMOs.
The problem with listening to your players - as others have indicated - is that players are always self-interested and quite frequently wrong. Some have good ideas and can provide an accurate assessment of an issue. The majority can't, or suggest solutions that are not feasible.
The reality of it is when players say, "the devs should listen to the players more" they actually mean "the devs need to listen to me!".
Good article!!!! I wish the guys over at Turbine would read this, as they seam to be catering to what the devs want and not what the customers have been screeming for. Case in point Orion the dev and his one man mission to revamp all the low level areas. As if they were expecting groves of players to run through that content 2 years into game.
Well, I actually have to give Turbine credit for that. I've been complaining about the low level areas ever since I started playing a year ago. I'm trying to slog my way up to 50 so I can enter Moria and get to where there are actually people in the game, and it's not a lot of fun, thanks to all those quest chains with group quests in the middle and such, but no people around to do them with.
And yes, for a game to grow, it has to make the game as friendly as possible to new players. Games that don't get a steady stream of new players will simply stagnate (sort of what LOTRO has been doing).
My only complaint is they've only got 1 person working on it, not a team (He's done 1-25, I think, he needs to hurry up and re-do 30-45)
I feel inclined to add that the customer is not always right and that when I was training for retail we were taught that its an incorrect belief the customers has.
Anyway back on topic its an excellent article. When was the Sony’s Influencer Program introduced ? I bet it was after they played with SWG :-P
I feel inclined to add that the customer is not always right and that when I was training for retail we were taught that its an incorrect belief the customers has.
Anyway back on topic its an excellent article. When was the Sony’s Influencer Program introduced ? I bet it was after they played with SWG :-P
Yes, but still doesn't work, since they ruined EQ2 too...................
In fact this thread should be dedicated entirely to SoE, although Funcom and Mythic might have the right to be mantioned too.
The original EQ had many issues that today's games shun. Much of this was because the original developers had a "vision",
and they stuck to it. On a financial basis this probably cost a lot of money. WOW blew EQ away because it didn't have corpse runs, had easy soloing, yada yada yada.
But on the other hand, I always admired the devs (Brian McQuaid?) for sticking to their "vision". It did create a certain environment that no MMO has today. And there are a lot of players suffering from nostalgia for that experience --- it wasn't all that it was new, It was aboutt he game being dangerous with real costs for players, and for the near requirement to group up and guild up to accomplish much, and for necessary periods of downtime, etc.
Today's developers, IMHO, don't have the courage to make such decisions and stick to them. I am not claiming that what the original EQ did was all right or that there weren't parts that annoyed me. That isn' t the point. The point is you imagine a world--- when you start to compromise it you lose something.
I find that the people who utter the cliche 'the customer is always right' have never run a real business. Yes there is a certain amount of give and take in any service industry, but dealing in generalities like the customer is always right will get you taken advantage of in a hurry. The customer approaches things from one perspective, his own, and is only concerned with his particular issue, often times to the total exclusion of everything else involved, no matter how logical. Listening to people like this would spell disaster in a complex system like an mmorpg. The best thing a game developer can do is stick to their original plan and polish it to a mirror shine. Use customer feedback to identify and squash bugs, but taking design feedback from amateurs and allowing every armchair game maker on your forum to influence the direction of your systems is a horrible decision, and it's why there are so many shitty games out there right now. Make a quality product and if people don't want to buy it because of a design decision you made, good riddance to them. Someone else will buy it (as long as you have the stones to stand behind your work and not swerve all over the road trying to be all things to all people).
Well said , i think we are the problem most of the time , always bloody moaning , forum trolls , etc... the customer isnt always right...
I feel inclined to add that the customer is not always right and that when I was training for retail we were taught that its an incorrect belief the customers has.
Anyway back on topic its an excellent article. When was the Sony’s Influencer Program introduced ? I bet it was after they played with SWG :-P
Well, its all a matter of if one wants to *keep* that customer for *repeat* business... Managing overall customer expectations and perceptions is what makes the difference between a long term profitable business, and one thats not. That is one of the areas that all too many MMO(as well as some other) companies tend to fail in. Word of mouth in the Internet age can be more helpful, or damaging than many appear to believe. No, in practical reality the customer isn't always right. BUT, if ones personnel are properly trained, they always understand the vital importance of managing customer expectations and perceptions. Marketing shares many of the aspects of propaganda(in both the positive and negative sense). Good customer service shares many of those basic elements as well.
The worst saying ever invented was "The customer is always right" it is so far from the truth it's ridiculous.
As most people here have probably seen, if you go to any MMOs official forums there are arguments over everything. Even the players can't agree what is good and what isn't. On top of that you have the players that decide they are going to work towards getting a working system nerfed or changed because other people are better at it then them. So they start creating tons of posts and try to play the scream the loudest game to get changes made, unfortunatly this sometimes works and is always a bad thing.
The true problem comes down to the players. Players complain about things that are working, and complain strongly against the tiniest of details. They send in fake reports to try and grief other players, and they hide the beneficial bugs to exploit as long as they can. They flood the forums with so much useless or incorrect information that the true information can't be extracted.
The same is true for beta, you have 95% of the information being inaccurate, a misunderstanding, or just silly. So how can the accurate information always be pulled out?
On top of that you get the players who do nothing but insult the devs or other players or just swear, and so they get in the way of real information again and have to all be babysat in order to keep the forums nice. And yes people if you sit there and swear at the devs then they will never listen to you again or change any actual problems you find, try to be polite and see how much better it works.
Now to be fair I am not saying the devs aren't at fault too, there have been many examples of information being provided by players as to what was broken and the devs not listening/changing it until much later which caused even greater problems. There have been cases of devs changing things that didn't need to be changed, and nerfing characters that didn't need to be nerfed.
The problem is the system. You have games where hundreds of thousands to even millions of players participate in. The amount of information that comes through is staggering. Then the rude behavior is added, and the design functionality that the players just don't get (On all the games I've played I've read so many suggestions of "the best idea ever" that would completly break the game but the person genuinely thought it was good). So all in all the system doesn't work.
I think the best idea overall if private test servers, where respected players in the community get special access to and have a direct line for feedback. That way the players who understand the game and it's community can represent the player base and help make sure future changes and content go well.
I would say dev chats where people are allowed free access to ask questions, but I've seen those and more times then not the questions just become silly and ridiculous frustrating both the devs and the players who actually care.
"A great example of this is Sony’s Influencer Program. SOE runs this influencer program with some of their top players. They host a summit with devs, community managers, and players each year to discuss game issues. This type of program works very well and gives everyone a chance to strive for better game play."
.....
Please accept the silence moment as my brain is trying to figure why on earth would Fuller state that and to respond nicely as possible. I have to agree with Burntvet. Even as a casual reader of the MMORPG posts (lurker for most part) It was very clear from the start that SOE have issues with their "Community Managers" style. I have seen their power plays and fights being aired here on the site.
Did Fuller not notice this issue? I'm surprised that he actually included SOE as a "great" example. Sorry, try again Fuller, use a better example beside SOE. We all seen it and with a quick search we could even find more about how good their idea really was.
Anyone that does articles should include examples of how it done well instead of saying, oh its a great idea. Oh it works well. Ok Fuller, back that statement up, please. I'll like to see what it has done to add to the content of their games. Give me hard cold fact instead of a fluff piece. Right now, Fuller, you're not looking good in my book of being a proper well researched article writer.
Now if someone was to ask me about my experience with trying to provide feedback in the games to help improve the game and experience. I'll give you this answer below.
Only time I actually felt that I was being listened to was during Turbine's testing of Lord of the Ring, after every quest I finish, there would be a feedback pop up which it'll ask me how I like it and rate it. It was easier and simpler than going to forums to leave feedback because it mean leaving the games, making yet another account for forums which more than often is not linked to the game account.
I would say the perfect feedback/support method would be the one that I listed above with decent rewards for finding bugs, great suggestions and what not.
Playing-- Alantica Online DOO Played--DAOC LOTR DOO AA EVE WAR SG Tried-- WWII Online SWG
Personally I think the DM/GM from Pen and Paper is a good point to start a conversation.
It became an established cornerstone of MMO's for players to go out and kill/collect different things over and over and over again. This was originally done with purpose and story as the core however over time it became the cornerstone on what a lot of games are built on. Heck, most people I know don' t even read the quest, instead depending on their journal to keep track of what they need to do and their map indicator to show where they need to go. This has been true in every cookie cutter MMO that has come out. They are pretty much all the same with a slightly different setting.
You can argue differences in mechanics, items, pvp, etc, etc, etc until the cows come home.
In the end it is the fact that the games got away from storytelling. They got away from you being a hero (of a villian if you so choose) that is at the center of their own story. Part of that is the fact that they have to have your story line running next to thousands of others. Rather than trying to find a way of doing this they have lazily dropped us into worlds where we are all playing single player games together without any of the merits of the single player game.
It is long past time that we stopped gorging on content and began insisting that the content we were consuming was worth our time and effort. It is funny but after all this time I thought things would change. I had dreams when I was young of a supercomputer that would run PnP games as the Game Master so that all of my friends and I could play together rather than one of us having to GM. I thought, how cool would it be to be able to go through the modules we bought together.
In the end though it is really, really hard to capture that human element. That ability to improvise on the fly and read a situation to make the experience enjoyable. However, I do not think we can be blamed for wanting Devs to at least try. Nor do I think that what we currently have is the end of the games evolution or even that good. Mostly people join new games and quickly burn out once they realize the skin is different but it is still the same old game.
Playing a game should be fun. No matter how long or how short. If it is only so so to play than no amount of content is going to fix that. Here is hoping the new MMOs coming down the pike are more than just a reserving of left overs with a new pile of cheese on top.
I find that the people who utter the cliche 'the customer is always right' have never run a real business. Yes there is a certain amount of give and take in any service industry, but dealing in generalities like the customer is always right will get you taken advantage of in a hurry. The customer approaches things from one perspective, his own, and is only concerned with his particular issue, often times to the total exclusion of everything else involved, no matter how logical. Listening to people like this would spell disaster in a complex system like an mmorpg. The best thing a game developer can do is stick to their original plan and polish it to a mirror shine. Use customer feedback to identify and squash bugs, but taking design feedback from amateurs and allowing every armchair game maker on your forum to influence the direction of your systems is a horrible decision, and it's why there are so many shitty games out there right now. Make a quality product and if people don't want to buy it because of a design decision you made, good riddance to them. Someone else will buy it (as long as you have the stones to stand behind your work and not swerve all over the road trying to be all things to all people).
This.
One of my favorite producers said "If you start letting customers design your game, the first thing they put in is a panis".
Listen to your customers, yes. But they have a narrower vision than the developer does. They will only see what affects themselves. A dev tries to see what affects all customers. It's a heck of a juggling act, especially when you have thousands of voices shouting at you.
no offense but many of you are jumping in the other extreme...the customer is never right. Most of you just think of pvp/pve balancing and working game mechanics that truly very debatable and yes the customer does have a narrower vision regardin that aspect.
But...at the same time especially last couple of years when there are hoards off ppl crying that there isn't enough content (and i'm not talking about the hardcore gamers that blitz trough the new content very fast), screaming that a very specific thing isn't working....or that the game is nowhere near release...yet the devs just ignore them..i really thing then the customer is right most often then none.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
I think my worst experience with a game and it's developers was Warhammer Online closed beta. I saw smart intelligent posters make posts that were negative but offered suggestions and explained why they felt the way they did. These posts and threads were shunned by the devs and community managers.
I have to say I dislike Wow but they really have understood what the players wanted. Sure the game is not for everyone but It has entertained so many. The arena combat is getting to become an E sport. PVE hardcore EQ raiders are doing the Wow raids and loving it. Social retards are doing stupid easy shit all day and loving it. You can switch servers easy. Devs need to make games that are going to be appealing. If they stop asking and making sure their game is appealing they will disappointed. IF a dev has a good game idea I am sure that a good majority of people will agree with it. Whats the harm in communicating with players rather then keeping yourself isolated and suceptable to "group think."
I kinda like the alpha testing of indivual game systems with players so that devs can actually use their feedback to improve their vision. Honestly If I was a producer I would require at least 50 mmo players randomly to be a focus group throughout the process.
I have to agree, not with the title of the story, but with the full post.
To many developers try to be everything to everyone, and nowhere is this more clear then with PvP. If you don't have PvP then you ain't an MMO but so far, almost no MMO has seemed to be able to get it right.
World of Warcraft's PvP is constantly complained about, Eve's is said to be good but that makes it clear, good PvP just doesn't get you subscribers.
That would seem unlikely, so it is more likely that something about Eve just doesn't get the punters.
In Lotro you can see a LOT of talk about PvP and the PvMP section of the forum is the most active, but when you actually visit the PvMP area, you will find only a handful of people there, a fraction of the total number of people logged into a server.
Yet, PvP is what must be done. Imagine other games had gone that route. Doom started with multi-player enabled therefor EVERY fps has to have multi-player. No Deus-Ex.
It is important that developers listen to their audience, but it is also vital they make a clear decision as to who their audience is going to be.
It avoids disasters like Age of Conan where it seemed clear that apart from the bugs, a lot of people quit because it wasn't what they expected.
Tell us what your game is going to be. It is amusing to see the devs of both SWTOR and TSW not being able to do this so far. Their message so far is "don't worry, no matter what you like, you will find it in our game." Unlikely.
Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed. Developers need full control to meet their customers expectations.
Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers. Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts. Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.
Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed. Developers need full control to meet their customers expectations.
Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers. Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts. Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.
By that time there will only be 2-3 publishers left and the cost will be inflated to 500 mil plus to make a playable mmo. Developers can afford to ditch them. Start small. Make a decent living with job security.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
What the article says is right. There is a sort of gap that is not often bridged between players and developers and so the only way to get the changes and quality you desire is to become a developer yourself.
I am hoping in the future there is more focus testing and serious consideration of suggestions for solutions to problems.
Net Devil has said that they are doing focus testing and adjusting instead of assuming that as developers they know it all. Hopefully this kind of attitude spreads because honestly the game developers as a whole have been mostly failing to create anything fun.
Hopefully ND's Jumpgate Evolution will break the cycle of fail and more developers will wake up to the fact that there is a better way.
I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up. Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that. Its called speaking with your dollars.
Wanna know how devs view us? A guy named Scott Hartsman, a dev who has worked for many different MMOs as well as social game sites, told this joke on a recent podcast. How many devs does it take to screw in a light bulb? You wouldn't know, you never made one. Pretty sad that anyone who says much of anything anymore is viewed that way.
There is too much of this us vs them attitude that permates the game industry. Somehow the industry is viewed as this giant genie that is supposed to give each and everyone of us exactly what we want, when we want it, how we want it. Not to mention everything that can beat us in a game is OP, plus we should be able to withstand any amount of dmg during an attack and be able to overcome any obstacle.
I could go on and on but my view is the most vocal part of any game community are the whiners that want, what they want, when they want it. And if you don't give it to them right then, they get louder and louder until mommy and daddy apply the Kmart method of discipline. A good slap across the face and a nice big cup of shut the hell up, which rarely happens. If people would be reasonable in their complaints and wishes maybe the devs would not view us with such a harsh eye.
Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing. Quit posting on their boards as well. Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd. Just quit playing. Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars. Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service. Ive done it over and over. Its not hard. Just quit playing.
I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up. Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that. Its called speaking with your dollars.
Wanna know how devs view us? A guy named Scott Hartsman, a dev who has worked for many different MMOs as well as social game sites, told this joke on a recent podcast. How many devs does it take to screw in a light bulb? You wouldn't know, you never made one. Pretty sad that anyone who says much of anything anymore is viewed that way.
There is too much of this us vs them attitude that permates the game industry. Somehow the industry is viewed as this giant genie that is supposed to give each and everyone of us exactly what we want, when we want it, how we want it. Not to mention everything that can beat us in a game is OP, plus we should be able to withstand any amount of dmg during an attack and be able to overcome any obstacle.
I could go on and on but my view is the most vocal part of any game community are the whiners that want, what they want, when they want it. And if you don't give it to them right then, they get louder and louder until mommy and daddy apply the Kmart method of discipline. A good slap across the face and a nice big cup of shut the hell up, which rarely happens. If people would be reasonable in their complaints and wishes maybe the devs would not view us with such a harsh eye.
Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing. Quit posting on their boards as well. Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd. Just quit playing. Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars. Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service. Ive done it over and over. Its not hard. Just quit playing.
Sorry. I quit reading after the first paragraph. If you can't be bothered to read the entire article before you post, I can't take your post seriously enough to read.
I'd like to draw an analogy with popular music to explain my thoughts on this...
Too much player input gives you an X-Factor style game. Fun for 10 seconds, but ultimately a rehashed pile of crap or something thats so niche market that only a handful of weird people sub before it folds.
Get a phenomenal production team together, mix in some genius, luck and inspiration and you'll end up with a massively successful classic - like the Beatles - or alternatively, a cult classic that never achieves big numbers but still pwns for a certain audience - like Engelbert Humperdinck .
Thing with MMOs is this. Almost everyone wants the next WoW - period. But love it or hate it, if you liken WoW to a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa, stuff like that just doesn't get pumped out every 5 minutes. You could listen to every dude with a PC from here to Timbuktu and back and no-one may have the key to the next big thing, not for years.
Even one tiny event can change everything, which is why the desires of millions of players will not bring an uber-game into existence. I think the best bet of a new, superstar MMO is from a developer - large or small - who isn't under a ton of financial pressure, is lead by some kind of tyrant and does their own thang, totally ignoring the players wants. Simply because wants and needs are often two very different things. Chances are these people will make a load more Darkfalls, but eventually I think kind of outfit will produce the next biggy.
My experience of Alphas is this:
I go and look for bugs in a game but rapidly develop a dislike for it because the unfinished product is exactly what it is - not ready - and that tarnishes the whole thing. I also offer a load of feedback on design, gameplay, etc and NONE OF IT gets addressed. Not that I mind a developer sticking to their concept and not being swayed by some random Joe, but don't ask for feedback you're not going to take on board at all.
My experience of Beta is this:
I like betas because even though I'm only REALLY playing to look for bugs, I do get to find out whether or not I should bother subbing. Unless it's an open beta for pre-order people, in which case you're sometimes feel like you're only getting to find out early how badly you've been fisted by the developer.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I think people take for granted what the developers are doing. I see this a LOT on the WoW forums, with people crying about what's broken, what needs to be buffed/nerfed, and how that would help them. Some of them even come in with great, valid arguments and solid data to back up their claims.
The problem comes in when you actually make that tweak. That one, tiny tweak can change the entirety of the game in so many ways, it's mind boggling! It can change the way your class is played for every character in the game. It can change the mob/boss encounters of the game in drastic ways. And that's just ONE class! Think if you made these minor tweaks to EVERY class! What would you end up with? Truthfully, a pile of burning rubble. Your great game would suddenly come crashing down because you made those changes before the end of the month.
These things, even when they DO want to make changes, take a lot of time, a lot of balancing, a lot of planning for the future, and a lot of iteration, over and over testing it to make sure it's just right, AND that it will scale well with better gear. It's not a simple process, and most people assume that because it wasn't finished 2 days, much less 2 months after they made the comment, that the developers just don't care and don't want to fix the class.
Give the devs time to do what's right. Give them time to test it. Give them time to analyze the situation, make the changes, balance, and everything. Give them time to do what they're trained to do, what they're paid to do, but most importantly, what they WANT to do, because I have faith that the devs want one thing first and foremost -- for you to have fun. It may not come instantly, but fortunately, MMOs are around for a long time, so we can still see the games come into full fruition.
"Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life." Simone Weil
Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of a disadvantage.
The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.
Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this
- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.
- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.
Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.
When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.
My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.
Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?
I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.
I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.
Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of a disadvantage. The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.
Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this - Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid. - Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there. Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer. When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time. My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group. Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ? I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing. I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.
Social Democracy?? You do realize thats an even bigger farce than what we have now? You would be exchanging the Few Who Rule(those who own the banks/corps and thus the politicians) for The Party. Its simply a subset of the same Boss class. At least in WoW, everyone has a chance to do the best they are capable of. Its all a matter of how much time/talent/focus and imagination you are willing to invest.
Sure there are dues to pay. You can't expect to start out on the same level as people who have invested hundreds or thousands of hours over the last almost 5 years. But if you are willing to invest the time/talent and focus, you can get your own "piece of the action" if thats what you want. With Blizzards on going patches, content gets easier and thus more accessible to larger numbers of people as time goes on.
As for "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" thats been the perspective of those behind The Party since the concept began. What people forget is that The Party is made up of people, the same as anyone else. In fact, history demonstrates that those who make up The Party, tend to be much more sociopathic than one normally sees in the general population(power systems self select for such types).
One of the major reasons that WoW is so popular is that its open to such a wide range of people. It will run on *long* out dated hardware, and its easy to get in to and continue with. After all these years its fairly polished, and it has a LOT of content. Its all a matter of what a player is willing to invest in their play sessions.
Comments
This thing about GMs is probably the most correct thing about this article, but I don't think you meant it this way.
If your GM / DM pulled a move you might not be happy with, you could argue with them but they were in complete power to say, "No, your character does this or they die right now." GMs / DMs weren't all beneficent creatures of light looking to make the world a better place through dice rolling; some where jerks who loved to lord their power over the players and others were people who sometimes executed a good idea badly or made mistakes. They might argue what a power or ability could do right before you used it and effectively 'nerf' it in the middle of play.
Your options were to either go on with what the GM / DM wanted or to leave the game. Such as it is with MMOs.
The problem with listening to your players - as others have indicated - is that players are always self-interested and quite frequently wrong. Some have good ideas and can provide an accurate assessment of an issue. The majority can't, or suggest solutions that are not feasible.
The reality of it is when players say, "the devs should listen to the players more" they actually mean "the devs need to listen to me!".
Well, I actually have to give Turbine credit for that. I've been complaining about the low level areas ever since I started playing a year ago. I'm trying to slog my way up to 50 so I can enter Moria and get to where there are actually people in the game, and it's not a lot of fun, thanks to all those quest chains with group quests in the middle and such, but no people around to do them with.
And yes, for a game to grow, it has to make the game as friendly as possible to new players. Games that don't get a steady stream of new players will simply stagnate (sort of what LOTRO has been doing).
My only complaint is they've only got 1 person working on it, not a team (He's done 1-25, I think, he needs to hurry up and re-do 30-45)
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
I feel inclined to add that the customer is not always right and that when I was training for retail we were taught that its an incorrect belief the customers has.
Anyway back on topic its an excellent article. When was the Sony’s Influencer Program introduced ? I bet it was after they played with SWG :-P
Yes, but still doesn't work, since they ruined EQ2 too...................
In fact this thread should be dedicated entirely to SoE, although Funcom and Mythic might have the right to be mantioned too.
The original EQ had many issues that today's games shun. Much of this was because the original developers had a "vision",
and they stuck to it. On a financial basis this probably cost a lot of money. WOW blew EQ away because it didn't have corpse runs, had easy soloing, yada yada yada.
But on the other hand, I always admired the devs (Brian McQuaid?) for sticking to their "vision". It did create a certain environment that no MMO has today. And there are a lot of players suffering from nostalgia for that experience --- it wasn't all that it was new, It was aboutt he game being dangerous with real costs for players, and for the near requirement to group up and guild up to accomplish much, and for necessary periods of downtime, etc.
Today's developers, IMHO, don't have the courage to make such decisions and stick to them. I am not claiming that what the original EQ did was all right or that there weren't parts that annoyed me. That isn' t the point. The point is you imagine a world--- when you start to compromise it you lose something.
Just my 2c.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
Well said , i think we are the problem most of the time , always bloody moaning , forum trolls , etc... the customer isnt always right...
Well, its all a matter of if one wants to *keep* that customer for *repeat* business... Managing overall customer expectations and perceptions is what makes the difference between a long term profitable business, and one thats not. That is one of the areas that all too many MMO(as well as some other) companies tend to fail in. Word of mouth in the Internet age can be more helpful, or damaging than many appear to believe. No, in practical reality the customer isn't always right. BUT, if ones personnel are properly trained, they always understand the vital importance of managing customer expectations and perceptions. Marketing shares many of the aspects of propaganda(in both the positive and negative sense). Good customer service shares many of those basic elements as well.
The worst saying ever invented was "The customer is always right" it is so far from the truth it's ridiculous.
As most people here have probably seen, if you go to any MMOs official forums there are arguments over everything. Even the players can't agree what is good and what isn't. On top of that you have the players that decide they are going to work towards getting a working system nerfed or changed because other people are better at it then them. So they start creating tons of posts and try to play the scream the loudest game to get changes made, unfortunatly this sometimes works and is always a bad thing.
The true problem comes down to the players. Players complain about things that are working, and complain strongly against the tiniest of details. They send in fake reports to try and grief other players, and they hide the beneficial bugs to exploit as long as they can. They flood the forums with so much useless or incorrect information that the true information can't be extracted.
The same is true for beta, you have 95% of the information being inaccurate, a misunderstanding, or just silly. So how can the accurate information always be pulled out?
On top of that you get the players who do nothing but insult the devs or other players or just swear, and so they get in the way of real information again and have to all be babysat in order to keep the forums nice. And yes people if you sit there and swear at the devs then they will never listen to you again or change any actual problems you find, try to be polite and see how much better it works.
Now to be fair I am not saying the devs aren't at fault too, there have been many examples of information being provided by players as to what was broken and the devs not listening/changing it until much later which caused even greater problems. There have been cases of devs changing things that didn't need to be changed, and nerfing characters that didn't need to be nerfed.
The problem is the system. You have games where hundreds of thousands to even millions of players participate in. The amount of information that comes through is staggering. Then the rude behavior is added, and the design functionality that the players just don't get (On all the games I've played I've read so many suggestions of "the best idea ever" that would completly break the game but the person genuinely thought it was good). So all in all the system doesn't work.
I think the best idea overall if private test servers, where respected players in the community get special access to and have a direct line for feedback. That way the players who understand the game and it's community can represent the player base and help make sure future changes and content go well.
I would say dev chats where people are allowed free access to ask questions, but I've seen those and more times then not the questions just become silly and ridiculous frustrating both the devs and the players who actually care.
"A great example of this is Sony’s Influencer Program. SOE runs this influencer program with some of their top players. They host a summit with devs, community managers, and players each year to discuss game issues. This type of program works very well and gives everyone a chance to strive for better game play."
.....
Please accept the silence moment as my brain is trying to figure why on earth would Fuller state that and to respond nicely as possible. I have to agree with Burntvet. Even as a casual reader of the MMORPG posts (lurker for most part) It was very clear from the start that SOE have issues with their "Community Managers" style. I have seen their power plays and fights being aired here on the site.
Did Fuller not notice this issue? I'm surprised that he actually included SOE as a "great" example. Sorry, try again Fuller, use a better example beside SOE. We all seen it and with a quick search we could even find more about how good their idea really was.
Anyone that does articles should include examples of how it done well instead of saying, oh its a great idea. Oh it works well. Ok Fuller, back that statement up, please. I'll like to see what it has done to add to the content of their games. Give me hard cold fact instead of a fluff piece. Right now, Fuller, you're not looking good in my book of being a proper well researched article writer.
Now if someone was to ask me about my experience with trying to provide feedback in the games to help improve the game and experience. I'll give you this answer below.
Only time I actually felt that I was being listened to was during Turbine's testing of Lord of the Ring, after every quest I finish, there would be a feedback pop up which it'll ask me how I like it and rate it. It was easier and simpler than going to forums to leave feedback because it mean leaving the games, making yet another account for forums which more than often is not linked to the game account.
I would say the perfect feedback/support method would be the one that I listed above with decent rewards for finding bugs, great suggestions and what not.
Playing-- Alantica Online DOO
Played--DAOC LOTR DOO AA EVE WAR SG
Tried-- WWII Online SWG
Personally I think the DM/GM from Pen and Paper is a good point to start a conversation.
It became an established cornerstone of MMO's for players to go out and kill/collect different things over and over and over again. This was originally done with purpose and story as the core however over time it became the cornerstone on what a lot of games are built on. Heck, most people I know don' t even read the quest, instead depending on their journal to keep track of what they need to do and their map indicator to show where they need to go. This has been true in every cookie cutter MMO that has come out. They are pretty much all the same with a slightly different setting.
You can argue differences in mechanics, items, pvp, etc, etc, etc until the cows come home.
In the end it is the fact that the games got away from storytelling. They got away from you being a hero (of a villian if you so choose) that is at the center of their own story. Part of that is the fact that they have to have your story line running next to thousands of others. Rather than trying to find a way of doing this they have lazily dropped us into worlds where we are all playing single player games together without any of the merits of the single player game.
It is long past time that we stopped gorging on content and began insisting that the content we were consuming was worth our time and effort. It is funny but after all this time I thought things would change. I had dreams when I was young of a supercomputer that would run PnP games as the Game Master so that all of my friends and I could play together rather than one of us having to GM. I thought, how cool would it be to be able to go through the modules we bought together.
In the end though it is really, really hard to capture that human element. That ability to improvise on the fly and read a situation to make the experience enjoyable. However, I do not think we can be blamed for wanting Devs to at least try. Nor do I think that what we currently have is the end of the games evolution or even that good. Mostly people join new games and quickly burn out once they realize the skin is different but it is still the same old game.
Playing a game should be fun. No matter how long or how short. If it is only so so to play than no amount of content is going to fix that. Here is hoping the new MMOs coming down the pike are more than just a reserving of left overs with a new pile of cheese on top.
This.
One of my favorite producers said "If you start letting customers design your game, the first thing they put in is a panis".
Listen to your customers, yes. But they have a narrower vision than the developer does. They will only see what affects themselves. A dev tries to see what affects all customers. It's a heck of a juggling act, especially when you have thousands of voices shouting at you.
no offense but many of you are jumping in the other extreme...the customer is never right. Most of you just think of pvp/pve balancing and working game mechanics that truly very debatable and yes the customer does have a narrower vision regardin that aspect.
But...at the same time especially last couple of years when there are hoards off ppl crying that there isn't enough content (and i'm not talking about the hardcore gamers that blitz trough the new content very fast), screaming that a very specific thing isn't working....or that the game is nowhere near release...yet the devs just ignore them..i really thing then the customer is right most often then none.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
I think my worst experience with a game and it's developers was Warhammer Online closed beta. I saw smart intelligent posters make posts that were negative but offered suggestions and explained why they felt the way they did. These posts and threads were shunned by the devs and community managers.
I have to say I dislike Wow but they really have understood what the players wanted. Sure the game is not for everyone but It has entertained so many. The arena combat is getting to become an E sport. PVE hardcore EQ raiders are doing the Wow raids and loving it. Social retards are doing stupid easy shit all day and loving it. You can switch servers easy. Devs need to make games that are going to be appealing. If they stop asking and making sure their game is appealing they will disappointed. IF a dev has a good game idea I am sure that a good majority of people will agree with it. Whats the harm in communicating with players rather then keeping yourself isolated and suceptable to "group think."
I kinda like the alpha testing of indivual game systems with players so that devs can actually use their feedback to improve their vision. Honestly If I was a producer I would require at least 50 mmo players randomly to be a focus group throughout the process.
Developers need to ditch the publishers. they're not needed. Developers need full control to meet their customers expectations.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I have to agree, not with the title of the story, but with the full post.
To many developers try to be everything to everyone, and nowhere is this more clear then with PvP. If you don't have PvP then you ain't an MMO but so far, almost no MMO has seemed to be able to get it right.
World of Warcraft's PvP is constantly complained about, Eve's is said to be good but that makes it clear, good PvP just doesn't get you subscribers.
That would seem unlikely, so it is more likely that something about Eve just doesn't get the punters.
In Lotro you can see a LOT of talk about PvP and the PvMP section of the forum is the most active, but when you actually visit the PvMP area, you will find only a handful of people there, a fraction of the total number of people logged into a server.
Yet, PvP is what must be done. Imagine other games had gone that route. Doom started with multi-player enabled therefor EVERY fps has to have multi-player. No Deus-Ex.
It is important that developers listen to their audience, but it is also vital they make a clear decision as to who their audience is going to be.
It avoids disasters like Age of Conan where it seemed clear that apart from the bugs, a lot of people quit because it wasn't what they expected.
Tell us what your game is going to be. It is amusing to see the devs of both SWTOR and TSW not being able to do this so far. Their message so far is "don't worry, no matter what you like, you will find it in our game." Unlikely.
Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers. Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts. Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.
Not that many developers can afford to ditch publishers. Publishers tend to be the ones with the money, experience and contacts. Its slowly evolving away from that, but for the time being thats the reality.
By that time there will only be 2-3 publishers left and the cost will be inflated to 500 mil plus to make a playable mmo. Developers can afford to ditch them. Start small. Make a decent living with job security.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
What the article says is right. There is a sort of gap that is not often bridged between players and developers and so the only way to get the changes and quality you desire is to become a developer yourself.
I am hoping in the future there is more focus testing and serious consideration of suggestions for solutions to problems.
Net Devil has said that they are doing focus testing and adjusting instead of assuming that as developers they know it all. Hopefully this kind of attitude spreads because honestly the game developers as a whole have been mostly failing to create anything fun.
Hopefully ND's Jumpgate Evolution will break the cycle of fail and more developers will wake up to the fact that there is a better way.
I have to be honest I stopped reading this article when a supposed "lack of accountability" in the MMO world for devs came up. Go talk to the guys that spent years working on Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault about that. Its called speaking with your dollars.
Wanna know how devs view us? A guy named Scott Hartsman, a dev who has worked for many different MMOs as well as social game sites, told this joke on a recent podcast. How many devs does it take to screw in a light bulb? You wouldn't know, you never made one. Pretty sad that anyone who says much of anything anymore is viewed that way.
There is too much of this us vs them attitude that permates the game industry. Somehow the industry is viewed as this giant genie that is supposed to give each and everyone of us exactly what we want, when we want it, how we want it. Not to mention everything that can beat us in a game is OP, plus we should be able to withstand any amount of dmg during an attack and be able to overcome any obstacle.
I could go on and on but my view is the most vocal part of any game community are the whiners that want, what they want, when they want it. And if you don't give it to them right then, they get louder and louder until mommy and daddy apply the Kmart method of discipline. A good slap across the face and a nice big cup of shut the hell up, which rarely happens. If people would be reasonable in their complaints and wishes maybe the devs would not view us with such a harsh eye.
Bottom line, don't like the way things go in a game, quit playing. Quit posting on their boards as well. Instead people play a game and continue to PAY for it and post on the respective boards until its absolutely absurd. Just quit playing. Its certainly your right to speak with your dollars. Make the companies accountable by not paying for what you view as their trash or lack of customer service. Ive done it over and over. Its not hard. Just quit playing.
Sorry. I quit reading after the first paragraph. If you can't be bothered to read the entire article before you post, I can't take your post seriously enough to read.
I'd like to draw an analogy with popular music to explain my thoughts on this...
Too much player input gives you an X-Factor style game. Fun for 10 seconds, but ultimately a rehashed pile of crap or something thats so niche market that only a handful of weird people sub before it folds.
Get a phenomenal production team together, mix in some genius, luck and inspiration and you'll end up with a massively successful classic - like the Beatles - or alternatively, a cult classic that never achieves big numbers but still pwns for a certain audience - like Engelbert Humperdinck .
Thing with MMOs is this. Almost everyone wants the next WoW - period. But love it or hate it, if you liken WoW to a masterpiece like the Mona Lisa, stuff like that just doesn't get pumped out every 5 minutes. You could listen to every dude with a PC from here to Timbuktu and back and no-one may have the key to the next big thing, not for years.
Even one tiny event can change everything, which is why the desires of millions of players will not bring an uber-game into existence. I think the best bet of a new, superstar MMO is from a developer - large or small - who isn't under a ton of financial pressure, is lead by some kind of tyrant and does their own thang, totally ignoring the players wants. Simply because wants and needs are often two very different things. Chances are these people will make a load more Darkfalls, but eventually I think kind of outfit will produce the next biggy.
My experience of Alphas is this:
I go and look for bugs in a game but rapidly develop a dislike for it because the unfinished product is exactly what it is - not ready - and that tarnishes the whole thing. I also offer a load of feedback on design, gameplay, etc and NONE OF IT gets addressed. Not that I mind a developer sticking to their concept and not being swayed by some random Joe, but don't ask for feedback you're not going to take on board at all.
My experience of Beta is this:
I like betas because even though I'm only REALLY playing to look for bugs, I do get to find out whether or not I should bother subbing. Unless it's an open beta for pre-order people, in which case you're sometimes feel like you're only getting to find out early how badly you've been fisted by the developer.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I think people take for granted what the developers are doing. I see this a LOT on the WoW forums, with people crying about what's broken, what needs to be buffed/nerfed, and how that would help them. Some of them even come in with great, valid arguments and solid data to back up their claims.
The problem comes in when you actually make that tweak. That one, tiny tweak can change the entirety of the game in so many ways, it's mind boggling! It can change the way your class is played for every character in the game. It can change the mob/boss encounters of the game in drastic ways. And that's just ONE class! Think if you made these minor tweaks to EVERY class! What would you end up with? Truthfully, a pile of burning rubble. Your great game would suddenly come crashing down because you made those changes before the end of the month.
These things, even when they DO want to make changes, take a lot of time, a lot of balancing, a lot of planning for the future, and a lot of iteration, over and over testing it to make sure it's just right, AND that it will scale well with better gear. It's not a simple process, and most people assume that because it wasn't finished 2 days, much less 2 months after they made the comment, that the developers just don't care and don't want to fix the class.
Give the devs time to do what's right. Give them time to test it. Give them time to analyze the situation, make the changes, balance, and everything. Give them time to do what they're trained to do, what they're paid to do, but most importantly, what they WANT to do, because I have faith that the devs want one thing first and foremost -- for you to have fun. It may not come instantly, but fortunately, MMOs are around for a long time, so we can still see the games come into full fruition.
"Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life."
Simone Weil
Mmoprg should be more directed towards a Social Democracy rather and a Capitalism Senate. There i said it. Too a degree you can find similar government structure in many mmorpgs. Take World of Warcraft of example. In it's truest form it is by all mean a form of Capitalism. I am not saying Capitalism is a bad thing by any means but, in a mmorpg reflecting this kind of government structure is bad for the gamer. Take Arena for example. When Wotlk newest seassion started off everyone was at a equal playing field. However as time wore on only the better and stronger class/spec and players that play well together progressed, while the rest bleed and clawed to get every bit of progression items they could get to say in competitive range. Now with the session seven just out now for a few weeks. Anyone that couldn't keep up or wanting to start off is at a mile of a disadvantage.
The only means beyond Arena to progress with a alt starting off is Bg gear that is at least 2 session old. This is hardly a sturdy stepping stone for most players and one i find very difficult to overcome with my other 5 level 80s I have. The stronger more resillianced out players with stronger weapons i cannot even come close to touching. It will take at least 2 full session to catch up to these titans. The rich get richer and i get pwned.
Another aspect is the different tiers of raiding. At first is was enjoyable and i could pug and interactwith new players. In some cases it was wonderful. In a whole bunch of other ways it was a nightmare. For example, if grouped with some people that didn't want to finish the full raid that day or night, I was locked into of the instance for a week and any attempts of finding a group that choice was made for me. There is a few problems with this
- Getting everyone to getter the next day to finishing the raid.
- Some player would go ahead and finishes the raid without the group that was there.
Just to name 2. The alternative to this is join a guild but, It still doesn't change the problem I would be faced with later as an officer.
When my guild packed it in on a Uladar run one night. I encounter a few member trying to put together a pug and finish that Uladar run the guild was working on. Now right then and there i should of kicked them but, then i would be down hardcore members that are on all the time.
My main problem is the lockouts. They give too much power to 1 player over another. My other problem not related above is how loot is handled in World of Warcraft givng the power of 1 player over many because, loot isn't assigned to the individual and rather the group.
Players have too much power to be a responsible mature players. We all know that so, why does company implore this kind of standard in their games ?
I highly doubt anything i have said here will be agreed with and I am o.k with that but, these are just my feeling concerning mmorpg and not just Wow. I have seen this in a few games. Truthful as a person that spends the most part of his free time gaming I'm getting turned off of Mmorpgs altogether because, what they are standing for. When i started playing mmorpgs way back when. I thought to myself "hey this is great, I can play a game and i can progress in it at the same time" Before that i was a Fps Rts gamer with a heavy console back round. This is not at all what I imagined when i started playing.
I agree with Garrett Fuller. There needs to be revolution or F it what's the point anymore ? We should all just go back to what we where doing before we started playing mmorpgs. At least there I know what to expect from other players and I have to power to do something about it.
That was a joke, right?
Create a physical boxed product, make the deals necessary to get it on store shelves and efficiently handle the global distribution.
When you're done, stop back here and let us know if you still think publishers are not needed.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Social Democracy?? You do realize thats an even bigger farce than what we have now? You would be exchanging the Few Who Rule(those who own the banks/corps and thus the politicians) for The Party. Its simply a subset of the same Boss class. At least in WoW, everyone has a chance to do the best they are capable of. Its all a matter of how much time/talent/focus and imagination you are willing to invest.
Sure there are dues to pay. You can't expect to start out on the same level as people who have invested hundreds or thousands of hours over the last almost 5 years. But if you are willing to invest the time/talent and focus, you can get your own "piece of the action" if thats what you want. With Blizzards on going patches, content gets easier and thus more accessible to larger numbers of people as time goes on.
As for "players have too much power to be responsible mature players" thats been the perspective of those behind The Party since the concept began. What people forget is that The Party is made up of people, the same as anyone else. In fact, history demonstrates that those who make up The Party, tend to be much more sociopathic than one normally sees in the general population(power systems self select for such types).
One of the major reasons that WoW is so popular is that its open to such a wide range of people. It will run on *long* out dated hardware, and its easy to get in to and continue with. After all these years its fairly polished, and it has a LOT of content. Its all a matter of what a player is willing to invest in their play sessions.