Originally posted by altairzq Sorry no, it's not optional. If you got too much information, you just skip it becaue you just can't assimilate all of it. If you get information in tiny bits, you get involved, because that information is 1) meaningful 2) you can grasp it easily.
Wha-- not optional?
(Psst, if there's a bad man behind you forcing you to read all the text in quests just post "Huffi muffi guffi" and I'll send help!)
It's optional. You choose whether to read it. Just because it's a bad move to put too much textual information in your game doesn't cause it to be less optional whether you read it or not - nobody's forcing you to read it and nobody's forcing you not to read it.
Ok yes it's optional, I was assuming everybody understands the frame we are talking in, that is a game, not a college degree. What I mean is people skip the text when they have to read more than 5 quests, period.
And yes I know you can read 6 quests. Please get the meaning of what I say, don't read the text in a literal way just to find flaws!!!
I'd like to see less random quests scattered all over the peasantry and more long chains that last for many levels and have a well thought out story (but please, don't make it "epic" every time). Developers just waste too much time and energy on making lots of nonsensical quests that have nothing to do with anything (collect X amount of apples for ol' granny).
Of course the quest design needs to be changed and improved as well so that it's not a linear path and the same each time you play. Meaningful Choices & Consequences in a MMO would be a good start.
In my opinions, only quest comes with movie counts quest with quality. Otherwise, the other quest just counts trash as same as trash mobs. Trashes and junks shape up the game to a good game or a bad game. It don't matter whether its main quest or side quest, it should be quality.
Originally posted by altairzq So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
Well, it's called "I can read" and "I have a memory better than a goldfish"
Remembering the lore associated with quests that is supposed to teach you the story and world lore isn't that hard. You don't have to remember names (unless it's a name supposed to be god/hero of the world) and places, that's what quest logs are for now. After reading a book you usually do remember main chars and events, eh? And those things usually have many more pages than a mere 20 quests.
And side/fedex/quests you can forget right after finishing them.
Just because players want something doesn't mean it's best for the game. Everyone wants to be more powerful but if combat becomes a yawn fest and you breeze through things you get bored and quit. In the end what you wanted hurt your enjoyment of the game.
Sure players want more and more quests, even and especially mindless ones. So much so that developers have decided to reward these players more than those who choose to "grind and explore" (when it should be equal rewards). Players will usually try to level as fast as possible so if questing is the best way to do that they will... even when they don't enjoy it.
The problem is some of us realize that questing generally means their is little point in grouping... or if you do group it is for a couple shared quests and move on... or you waste your time doing quests you have already done to help someone else out. Nothing beats the bond you can build with a group that is just out to explore and maybe grind a bit, using down time to actually talk! This is how friends are made.
Instead, because they've made questing the most profitable way to play (in terms of xp and rewards), players go on their mindless questing and avoid this type of gameplay. To me the ideal is to have questing the most profitable way to play when solo'ing (less boring than grinding when you have no one to talk to) and exploring/grinding the most profitable in groups with SOME group quests thrown in (one or two per level) to break things up.
Originally posted by altairzq So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
Well, it's called "I can read" and "I have a memory better than a goldfish"
Remembering the lore associated with quests that is supposed to teach you the story and world lore isn't that hard. You don't have to remember names (unless it's a name supposed to be god/hero of the world) and places, that's what quest logs are for now.
After reading a book you usually do remember main chars and events, eh? And those things usually have many more pages than a mere 20 quests.
And side/fedex/quests you can forget right after finishing them.
Really I laugh at all the people that say they can keep track of more than 20 deep story line quest and pretend that others that can't or don't want to spend the time to do it, are iliterate or cretins. Get lost, please? Thank you.
I don't like it when there are so many quests to pick up, because I feel it's too much to read. However, I do pick them all up, because usually 2-3 of them lead to the same place. Quests have summarys on the right side of the screen so I just check there. I don't like reading the "I can't kill ten wolves, can you do it for me please?" over and over again.
Would be cool with caves and camps with loads of enemies where I can stay and farm. Maybe if it's a really big building or something there could be special mobs who spawn once every 15 minutes or something to make the place more interesting, some kind of minibosses with fun abilities so you can team up.
Then for quests I would like to have more interesting quests where you need to solve a problem. If there are better ways to lvl up than quests then they can be "just for fun" I think. Something like a guy wants something to eat because he is sick, and he's got a slot where you can put an item and he says yes or no. Then you try put soup and he says "yes" and you complete it. Also quests where you can answer in different ways, where you need to figure out what they want to hear. Like, you know the lore of the race, so you know what would insult him. If you happen to insult him, he could say something like, "how rude!" and then he won't talk to you for 15 minutes, an hour, or maybe even days. Maybe a quest where you need to kill some guy, but another dude in a watchtower is not supposed to see you kill him. So you find a friend to team up with, so he goes and sleeps the guy watching while you kill. I think those types of quests could be fun to do.
Ok developers... you got to give us LESS QUESTS. When you get too many quests you start skipping the text, you just can't keep up with the story of every quest when you have 20 in your log. You just can't! How on earth haven't you realized this already? Make sure we don't have more than 5 quests at a time, then you add another one. Nicely. Unlees another player shares his quests with you, so you can still do quests together. Easy fix to feel more inmersed in the story and the world. Doh.
edit: just to make clear my point, I mean less quests at a time. I hightlighted that part.
problem is not the quests needing to be fewer its the quests themselves that needs to be highlightend. Killing 10 rats outside the town could hardly be described as a quest, its more like a menace, a task or a favour. MMOs should re-strucutrize and name the small ones you dont want to read as tasks and the killing of dragons, saving of ladies in distress etc should be crowned quests.
Less text for quests such as killing rats or exploring "noob town 2" and a bit longer text describing the villains fortress and the kings princess etc. Also why have a limit on quests/tasks at all?
Originally posted by altairzq Sorry no, it's not optional. If you got too much information, you just skip it becaue you just can't assimilate all of it. If you get information in tiny bits, you get involved, because that information is 1) meaningful 2) you can grasp it easily.
Wha-- not optional?
(Psst, if there's a bad man behind you forcing you to read all the text in quests just post "Huffi muffi guffi" and I'll send help!)
It's optional. You choose whether to read it. Just because it's a bad move to put too much textual information in your game doesn't cause it to be less optional whether you read it or not - nobody's forcing you to read it and nobody's forcing you not to read it.
Ok yes it's optional, I was assuming everybody understands the frame we are talking in, that is a game, not a college degree. What I mean is people skip the text when they have to read more than 5 quests, period.
And yes I know you can read 6 quests. Please get the meaning of what I say, don't read the text in a literal way just to find flaws!!!
Eh? I wasn't nitpicking. You were replying to my saying that you can read as many quests worth of text as you want, making it optional.
Yes, some people skip text at 5 quests. Some people skip at 25. Some people skip at 100. And that's where I fail to see the problem: all three players, with vastly different tastes, are reading exactly how many quests they want to!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm a fan of games having a lot of quests. Just don't make every quest "The monster population is getting out of control. Please kill X and return to me." As long as a quest has a nice story and purpose, they shouldn't be limited.
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
How many quests are actually part of the story... out of 20, 12-15 of those are on the lines of "I want bacon, kill me 10 pigs..."
well, that's one thing that I loved in FFXI, and looking forward to in FFIV. 99.9% of quests (none that I can remember, but don't want to get sued ;P lol) have a purpose AND they all have cut scenes, no stupid pop up window that you have to read. I don't really have a problem. I could easily level a character in WoW to 80 and I remember which quests you can do together while doing other quests. Not too hard when you've done it a couple of times. Cutscenes for all quests yay!
Some games definitely put too many quests in one area, making it seem overwhelming and not at all fun. LotRO is a good example of a game that threw too many quests at you at one time, and it's also one of the main reasons I won't play the game.
Well, perhaps what we need is for developers to simply quit putting everything under the "quest" monicker and break it out into multiple catagories. Delivering a message from one npc to another standing 100 feet away really never feels much like a "quest."
1. Quest - quests are long, have multiple steps, are important to developing story in a way usually related to your chosen class or game lore and yield great rewards for completion. Class specific powers, rare armors, weapons, along with money and xp would be typical rewards. Quests are about seeking, a persuit or search. Make them stand out, make them memorable.
2. Tasks - tasks are quick, usually easy with simple rewards like xp and money or consumables. Perhaps they should even be repeatable within limits per day and help you earn reputation with certain npc factions. These would be your typical kill or fedex tasks. Many could also be related to non combat activities like crafting or fishing. Just don't make me feel insulted by calling a chore to get 10 rat tails a "quest."
3. Exploration - well, this one would be difficult with the land mass of today's mmo's getting smaller and smaller. Even said, exploration rewards shouldn't always be granted for just bumbling into a zone. Points of interest, hidden ruins or relics and secrets need to abound. Shortcuts and hidden areas should be there to discover if you stray off the usual path. Not only should you get rewarded, some of these things need to be useful to players. Pools that remove curses, tunnels that are a shortcut through terrain that most would have to go around, places that might give a bonus to certain crafting skills, etc.
Simply put, quit telling me that simple chores are epic "quests." Make questing something I really want to do because of the great rewards or insight into my character. If I want to earn my daily bread I'll do some tasks or if I'm feeling adventurous I will go exploring.
If A MMO is more of a Quest focused game or a Quest stacker as I like to call them.
You need a good story, voice overs, cinematics and long epic quest chains.
As of right now the only game i've seen that has engaging quests were the main quests in the Guild Wars campaigns.
Questing in MMOs should feel more like adventuring in a RPG just with other players around ya.
I just wanted to pipe in and say that, in my opinion, you described EQ2. I haven't played Guild Wars for years, so it could be that it's just as good in that regard.
I don't play EQ2 anymore, haven't for a long time in fact. But I remember how it was FULL of fun, interactive quests with great stories - and voice-overs. I'm not arguing mind you, just offering up another game that fits the bill in my opinion.
Add in the fact that you have *numerous* options as to where you quest/level at any given time and you have many options to take you through the levels.
I'm not trying to sell the game to anyone, but the more I talk about it the more I feel like giving it another go.
I'm a fan of games having a lot of quests. Just don't make every quest "The monster population is getting out of control. Please kill X and return to me." As long as a quest has a nice story and purpose, they shouldn't be limited.
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
I'm a fan of games having a lot of quests. Just don't make every quest "The monster population is getting out of control. Please kill X and return to me." As long as a quest has a nice story and purpose, they shouldn't be limited.
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
Ok, but a nice quest with a purpose that means I would think several quests linked together, where you get involved, read all the text, etc. Why would you want to have more than lets say around 5 of them? If you have 15 or 20... who cares about each one individually? It's like reading 10 books at a time, you just can't focus on any of them (except the awsomo people in the forum that can do that of course while designing gothic cathedrals to pass the time! but I mean, for the rest of us mortals).
I'm a fan of games having a lot of quests. Just don't make every quest "The monster population is getting out of control. Please kill X and return to me." As long as a quest has a nice story and purpose, they shouldn't be limited.
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
Ok, but a nice quest with a purpose that means I would think several quests linked together, where you get involved, read all the text, etc. Why would you want to have more than lets say around 5 of them? If you have 15 or 20... who cares about each one individually? It's like reading 10 books at a time, you just can't focus on any of them (except the awsomo people in the forum that can do that of course while designing gothic cathedrals to pass the time! but I mean, for the rest of us mortals).
Quests aren't comparable to novels. And I would want more because I like quests that add flavor and depth to the game, to flesh the world out. The more I know about the game world and it's citizens only makes it better.
Comments
Wha-- not optional?
(Psst, if there's a bad man behind you forcing you to read all the text in quests just post "Huffi muffi guffi" and I'll send help!)
It's optional. You choose whether to read it. Just because it's a bad move to put too much textual information in your game doesn't cause it to be less optional whether you read it or not - nobody's forcing you to read it and nobody's forcing you not to read it.
Ok yes it's optional, I was assuming everybody understands the frame we are talking in, that is a game, not a college degree. What I mean is people skip the text when they have to read more than 5 quests, period.
And yes I know you can read 6 quests. Please get the meaning of what I say, don't read the text in a literal way just to find flaws!!!
I'd like to see less random quests scattered all over the peasantry and more long chains that last for many levels and have a well thought out story (but please, don't make it "epic" every time). Developers just waste too much time and energy on making lots of nonsensical quests that have nothing to do with anything (collect X amount of apples for ol' granny).
Of course the quest design needs to be changed and improved as well so that it's not a linear path and the same each time you play. Meaningful Choices & Consequences in a MMO would be a good start.
Lord of the Rings was basically a "FedX" quest. (with a bunch of side quest)
Take the ring and throw it in a volcano.....
Again it's not the amount but the QUALITY that counts.
In my opinions, only quest comes with movie counts quest with quality. Otherwise, the other quest just counts trash as same as trash mobs. Trashes and junks shape up the game to a good game or a bad game. It don't matter whether its main quest or side quest, it should be quality.
Remembering the lore associated with quests that is supposed to teach you the story and world lore isn't that hard. You don't have to remember names (unless it's a name supposed to be god/hero of the world) and places, that's what quest logs are for now.
After reading a book you usually do remember main chars and events, eh? And those things usually have many more pages than a mere 20 quests.
And side/fedex/quests you can forget right after finishing them.
Just because players want something doesn't mean it's best for the game. Everyone wants to be more powerful but if combat becomes a yawn fest and you breeze through things you get bored and quit. In the end what you wanted hurt your enjoyment of the game.
Sure players want more and more quests, even and especially mindless ones. So much so that developers have decided to reward these players more than those who choose to "grind and explore" (when it should be equal rewards). Players will usually try to level as fast as possible so if questing is the best way to do that they will... even when they don't enjoy it.
The problem is some of us realize that questing generally means their is little point in grouping... or if you do group it is for a couple shared quests and move on... or you waste your time doing quests you have already done to help someone else out. Nothing beats the bond you can build with a group that is just out to explore and maybe grind a bit, using down time to actually talk! This is how friends are made.
Instead, because they've made questing the most profitable way to play (in terms of xp and rewards), players go on their mindless questing and avoid this type of gameplay. To me the ideal is to have questing the most profitable way to play when solo'ing (less boring than grinding when you have no one to talk to) and exploring/grinding the most profitable in groups with SOME group quests thrown in (one or two per level) to break things up.
Remembering the lore associated with quests that is supposed to teach you the story and world lore isn't that hard. You don't have to remember names (unless it's a name supposed to be god/hero of the world) and places, that's what quest logs are for now.
After reading a book you usually do remember main chars and events, eh? And those things usually have many more pages than a mere 20 quests.
And side/fedex/quests you can forget right after finishing them.
Really I laugh at all the people that say they can keep track of more than 20 deep story line quest and pretend that others that can't or don't want to spend the time to do it, are iliterate or cretins. Get lost, please? Thank you.
I don't like it when there are so many quests to pick up, because I feel it's too much to read. However, I do pick them all up, because usually 2-3 of them lead to the same place. Quests have summarys on the right side of the screen so I just check there. I don't like reading the "I can't kill ten wolves, can you do it for me please?" over and over again.
Would be cool with caves and camps with loads of enemies where I can stay and farm. Maybe if it's a really big building or something there could be special mobs who spawn once every 15 minutes or something to make the place more interesting, some kind of minibosses with fun abilities so you can team up.
Then for quests I would like to have more interesting quests where you need to solve a problem. If there are better ways to lvl up than quests then they can be "just for fun" I think. Something like a guy wants something to eat because he is sick, and he's got a slot where you can put an item and he says yes or no. Then you try put soup and he says "yes" and you complete it. Also quests where you can answer in different ways, where you need to figure out what they want to hear. Like, you know the lore of the race, so you know what would insult him. If you happen to insult him, he could say something like, "how rude!" and then he won't talk to you for 15 minutes, an hour, or maybe even days. Maybe a quest where you need to kill some guy, but another dude in a watchtower is not supposed to see you kill him. So you find a friend to team up with, so he goes and sleeps the guy watching while you kill. I think those types of quests could be fun to do.
problem is not the quests needing to be fewer its the quests themselves that needs to be highlightend. Killing 10 rats outside the town could hardly be described as a quest, its more like a menace, a task or a favour. MMOs should re-strucutrize and name the small ones you dont want to read as tasks and the killing of dragons, saving of ladies in distress etc should be crowned quests.
Less text for quests such as killing rats or exploring "noob town 2" and a bit longer text describing the villains fortress and the kings princess etc. Also why have a limit on quests/tasks at all?
Wha-- not optional?
(Psst, if there's a bad man behind you forcing you to read all the text in quests just post "Huffi muffi guffi" and I'll send help!)
It's optional. You choose whether to read it. Just because it's a bad move to put too much textual information in your game doesn't cause it to be less optional whether you read it or not - nobody's forcing you to read it and nobody's forcing you not to read it.
Ok yes it's optional, I was assuming everybody understands the frame we are talking in, that is a game, not a college degree. What I mean is people skip the text when they have to read more than 5 quests, period.
And yes I know you can read 6 quests. Please get the meaning of what I say, don't read the text in a literal way just to find flaws!!!
Eh? I wasn't nitpicking. You were replying to my saying that you can read as many quests worth of text as you want, making it optional.
Yes, some people skip text at 5 quests. Some people skip at 25. Some people skip at 100. And that's where I fail to see the problem: all three players, with vastly different tastes, are reading exactly how many quests they want to!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
How many quests are actually part of the story... out of 20, 12-15 of those are on the lines of "I want bacon, kill me 10 pigs..."
well, that's one thing that I loved in FFXI, and looking forward to in FFIV. 99.9% of quests (none that I can remember, but don't want to get sued ;P lol) have a purpose AND they all have cut scenes, no stupid pop up window that you have to read. I don't really have a problem. I could easily level a character in WoW to 80 and I remember which quests you can do together while doing other quests. Not too hard when you've done it a couple of times. Cutscenes for all quests yay!
Some games definitely put too many quests in one area, making it seem overwhelming and not at all fun. LotRO is a good example of a game that threw too many quests at you at one time, and it's also one of the main reasons I won't play the game.
Well, perhaps what we need is for developers to simply quit putting everything under the "quest" monicker and break it out into multiple catagories. Delivering a message from one npc to another standing 100 feet away really never feels much like a "quest."
1. Quest - quests are long, have multiple steps, are important to developing story in a way usually related to your chosen class or game lore and yield great rewards for completion. Class specific powers, rare armors, weapons, along with money and xp would be typical rewards. Quests are about seeking, a persuit or search. Make them stand out, make them memorable.
2. Tasks - tasks are quick, usually easy with simple rewards like xp and money or consumables. Perhaps they should even be repeatable within limits per day and help you earn reputation with certain npc factions. These would be your typical kill or fedex tasks. Many could also be related to non combat activities like crafting or fishing. Just don't make me feel insulted by calling a chore to get 10 rat tails a "quest."
3. Exploration - well, this one would be difficult with the land mass of today's mmo's getting smaller and smaller. Even said, exploration rewards shouldn't always be granted for just bumbling into a zone. Points of interest, hidden ruins or relics and secrets need to abound. Shortcuts and hidden areas should be there to discover if you stray off the usual path. Not only should you get rewarded, some of these things need to be useful to players. Pools that remove curses, tunnels that are a shortcut through terrain that most would have to go around, places that might give a bonus to certain crafting skills, etc.
Simply put, quit telling me that simple chores are epic "quests." Make questing something I really want to do because of the great rewards or insight into my character. If I want to earn my daily bread I'll do some tasks or if I'm feeling adventurous I will go exploring.
I just wanted to pipe in and say that, in my opinion, you described EQ2. I haven't played Guild Wars for years, so it could be that it's just as good in that regard.
I don't play EQ2 anymore, haven't for a long time in fact. But I remember how it was FULL of fun, interactive quests with great stories - and voice-overs. I'm not arguing mind you, just offering up another game that fits the bill in my opinion.
Add in the fact that you have *numerous* options as to where you quest/level at any given time and you have many options to take you through the levels.
I'm not trying to sell the game to anyone, but the more I talk about it the more I feel like giving it another go.
Acidon
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
Ok, but a nice quest with a purpose that means I would think several quests linked together, where you get involved, read all the text, etc. Why would you want to have more than lets say around 5 of them? If you have 15 or 20... who cares about each one individually? It's like reading 10 books at a time, you just can't focus on any of them (except the awsomo people in the forum that can do that of course while designing gothic cathedrals to pass the time! but I mean, for the rest of us mortals).
So you can keep track of 20+ quests with a deep story line at the same time? No way!
I never said a deep storyline. Nice ones with a purpose.
Ok, but a nice quest with a purpose that means I would think several quests linked together, where you get involved, read all the text, etc. Why would you want to have more than lets say around 5 of them? If you have 15 or 20... who cares about each one individually? It's like reading 10 books at a time, you just can't focus on any of them (except the awsomo people in the forum that can do that of course while designing gothic cathedrals to pass the time! but I mean, for the rest of us mortals).
Quests aren't comparable to novels. And I would want more because I like quests that add flavor and depth to the game, to flesh the world out. The more I know about the game world and it's citizens only makes it better.