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Update on Refund from Starvault and my CC company
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Here's some "facts" for you to munch on.
Next time you get a speeding ticket tell the judge that you were going "around the speed limit" I am sure that any court will see your point and let you off just like they would let SV walk with no repercussions.
Gawd the lack of real world experience on this forum is staggering.
Heres some reality for you, a release date is nothing like a speeding ticket, you get a speeding ticket for going over a set limit, the around september is the limit not someone in court saying I was going around the speed limit. So thank you and think before you post.
The order confirmation page said Sept 1 and they ninja'd it without saying a word to anyone. Get your facts striaght before you post anymore please.
Here's some "facts" for you to munch on.
Next time you get a speeding ticket tell the judge that you were going "around the speed limit" I am sure that any court will see your point and let you off just like they would let SV walk with no repercussions.
Gawd the lack of real world experience on this forum is staggering.
Heres some reality for you, a release date is nothing like a speeding ticket, you get a speeding ticket for going over a set limit, the around september is the limit not someone in court saying I was going around the speed limit. So thank you and think before you post.
The order confirmation page said Sept 1 and they ninja'd it without saying a word to anyone. Get your facts striaght before you post anymore please.
If you actually read the rest of the thread you would of realised I retracted my statement earlier because I found some people I trust saying that they were going to ship sept 1st, so read before jumping the gun.
He got a full refund. Only person losing out is Starvault. Maybe you should think before you post next time?
John, do you really not understand the basis behind Vinter's post? It clearly has nothing to do with your rely.
I think i'm about to try and get a refund on my Limited Edition, which sucks, but I just can't see me getting my moneys-worth from it, anytime this OR next year.
well u better do it now then since they are going to ship the boxes soon enough...
Most vendors I've dealt with (not specificly MMO's)..... don't actualy charge your card when they take a pre-order. They take your info...but don't actualy put in the charge until the item ships. Anyway's it's the law in the US (and I suspect we aren't alone) that if you charge a customer for an item...you must ship that item within a certain number of days of the agreed delivery date or offer to refund the customers money.
The contracts vendors have with CC companies tend to be even more stringent....and are pretty protective of consumers (CC companies WANT consumers to feel confident in using their cards.....else there is no reason not to use cash or check).
Don't really know the specific situation with MO...as I just chanced upon this thread....and I admire the fact that the Dev's seemed to be pretty explicit about outlining what the beta was/was not..... but the bottom line is that as a vendor...if you take some-ones money you pretty much have to deliver what you charged for when you promised you'd deliver it.
The reason other vendors don't have these same sorts of problems with missed ship dates is that the usualy don't place the charge until the item actual ships.
As a follow up....the smat way that I've seen some vendors get some cash up front for pre-orders (Turbine did this with LOTRO) works like this... They charge you $5 (or whatever) for a BETA CD, or digitial download of the Beta. Then they give you a $5 credit/discount off your purchase price when the live product ships. That methods avoids these kind of problems with consumer laws and CC charge-backs. Under those circumstances, your $5 is not going toward the final product....it's going toward the purchase of the Beta CD/download....which you get right then and there....so no issues of not getting the product you purchased.
It's actualy a pretty reasonable way of doing things (IMO).... $5 is a pretty trivial purchase for most people....about what you'd pay for a Pay-per-View movie. It gives you an opportunity to try out the game before you buy it.... but gives the Dev's a bit of cash before release and helps defray the hosting costs of providing Beta access. It also helps address the issue of greifers creating 50 different accounts for free to run amock with that some open betas experience..... while avoiding the whole You must be lucky enough to get one of our invitations gatekeeper function.... it also avoids the unpleasantness of being charged the full price for a product before you really know what you are buying and then feeling let down thing.
Which is why the moment they ninja'd the ship date I canseled my pre-order. The fanbois want everyone to think people are charging back SV because they don't like the game. But the truth of the matter is people are charging back the pre-order because SV is being shady about everything. There is no beta forums, the ninja edit ship dates, and they sent out thousands of invalid tracking numbers.
Even if it wasn't on purpose (which I find very hard to believe) that just means they are a terribly run company that doesn't have a clue what they got into. And that in itself is a good enough reason for most to want their money back for a full price (bloated beyond belief.. $60 for digital download? wtf...) pre-order that changed ship dates from Sept 1st to unknown.
Edit: mind you they changed the ship date without telling anyone 2 weeks after the pre-order started.
Which is why the moment they ninja'd the ship date I canseled my pre-order. The fanbois want everyone to think people are charging back SV because they don't like the game. But the truth of the matter is people are charging back the pre-order because SV is being shady about everything. There is no beta forums, the ninja edit ship dates, and they sent out thousands of invalid tracking numbers.
Even if it wasn't on purpose (which I find very hard to believe) that just means they are a terribly run company that doesn't have a clue what they got into. And that in itself is a good enough reason for most to want their money back for a full price (bloated beyond belief.. $60 for digital download? wtf...) pre-order that changed ship dates from Sept 1st to unknown.
Edit: mind you they changed the ship date without telling anyone 2 weeks after the pre-order started.
{mod edit}
The shipping date was stated to be sometime in Sepetember. Recently Henrik, the CEO of SV confimed this on the IRC.
The boxes will be sent in Sepetember and later on before release we will be shipped another DVD with final version of the game.
Just as it was explained here:
http://www.mortalonline.com/news/july-13-07-09
{mod edit}
{mod edit}
The shipping date was stated to be sometime in Sepetember. Recently Henrik, the CEO of SV confimed this on the IRC.
The boxes will be sent in Sepetember and later on before release we will be shipped another DVD with final version of the game.
Just as it was explained here:
http://www.mortalonline.com/news/july-13-07-09
{mod edit}
The reason you keep seeing the Sept. 1st statement is most of the early pre-order people based their decision off of the following thread. It was the first one written with good information about the upcoming " beta " testing. Its true their July post does say " around Sept. ", but I think the lack of an official post on when shipping will occur is what pissed off most people. Remember irc is not considered an " official " source, but that is the only way players can gain current information.
Sept. 1st Shipping
Companies change ship dates all the freak'n time in the MMORPG busy. When they do, that doesn't mean it's a scam. Seriously, my good... just to name a few, look at AoC, WAR, and DFO. Between the 3 of them, there must have been 10 or more "go live" dates over the years.
This is an MMORPG and regardless if we like it or not, dates can and do change. And yes, before you say, I realize that sounds odd coming from me after giving static over DFO release dates over the years, but that's everyone's right on forums.
It just boggles my mind that people are acting like this in a PvP game. For those that are QQing about their refund because the game didn't ship on 1 Sept, I hope you never buy a pre-order MMORPG again. It seems all you wanted was the free beta play but were not willing to accept a date change on release.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Which is why the moment they ninja'd the ship date I canseled my pre-order. The fanbois want everyone to think people are charging back SV because they don't like the game. But the truth of the matter is people are charging back the pre-order because SV is being shady about everything. There is no beta forums, the ninja edit ship dates, and they sent out thousands of invalid tracking numbers.
Even if it wasn't on purpose (which I find very hard to believe) that just means they are a terribly run company that doesn't have a clue what they got into. And that in itself is a good enough reason for most to want their money back for a full price (bloated beyond belief.. $60 for digital download? wtf...) pre-order that changed ship dates from Sept 1st to unknown.
Edit: mind you they changed the ship date without telling anyone 2 weeks after the pre-order started.
Well since my last post was deleted I guess ill repost a less conflicting post lol. Sheesh censorship at its best.
Anyway MMOguru you need to stop spouting these false statements, the charge-backs started like 2 months ago even before september, so the whole "The fanbois want everyone to think people are charging back SV because they don't like the game." is just plain bullsh*t, that is why the majority of people are doing charge-backs they saw the beta and they were like I paid 75 dollars for this! and went straight to their CC company to get a refund because todays gamers don't know what a true beta is, you have proven countless times that you have no idea what true beta is even after someone gave you a link of what a true beta is described as lol.
I am just ganna say this straightout, If you are on the fence about this game and don't have alil extra spending money to throw at a game you may or may not like, wait until the game releases and go off of the review of someone you know or someone that gets paid to review a game. Following the words of some angry kid that has not even the little bit of backing is a downfall you might miss out on one of the best things of this year because of the ramblings of an angry kid. So my final word is please judge the game for yourself or take your judgement from someone with a reputable demeanor.
Ahh, so you've done studies and have cold, hard data on this. Please, feel free to provide a link to your research.
OR you're the one spouting off.
Based on prior comments where you think your opinion holds more weight than CONSUMER LAWS, I'm going to go ahead and plant my flag firmly in the camp of you not having a clue wtf you're talking about.
Ahh, so you've done studies and have cold, hard data on this. Please, feel free to provide a link to your research.
OR you're the one spouting off.
Based on prior comments where you think your opinion holds more weight than CONSUMER LAWS, I'm going to go ahead and plant my flag firmly in the camp of you not having a clue wtf you're talking about.
Lol, go search for any post regarding a refund from SV, the majority of them is because they don't like the way beta is atm, and for the amount of refunds before september what other reason is there besides that so 2 months of refunds with the only reason to require one is either financial problems which is the less likely and the people who saw beta didn't like what they saw. So I can use my head to descerne the reasoning for what the majority of refunds are.
So don't troll me please with this weak argument.
Yes! you are absolutely right, I honestly cant wait for Starvault and Aventurine to finally close their doors, I think once this is done thats it, everyone will be happy no more alpha or beta testing of any kind, we should honestly expect better, and from here on what we will have is more WoW, and thats the way it should be, AION will also be released but we will know how that will turn out, another 200k sub game, all the next projects should be something that is just a small extension of the Theme Park genre cause that is the only way any company is gonna release anything, no company will ever invest any money on any sandbox and Indie companies just get torn apart very quickly so I think everyone will enjoy playing "WoW" for the next 50 years of MMORPG Generations.
For your info, if darkfall and MO was not announced, i would still be playing console game and fps rts pc game. Just before i knew about DF and MO, i played wow and didnt like it because the pvp was a joke. Plus, i never played any sandbox game before. So i asked myself that i would never play an mmorpg in my life again and then, i heard of darkfall and there i am at the moment. I heard of MO and i cant wait for the release since i want to play a complete game.
SO thank god, there are still some devs. indie or not, making sandbox mmorpg with open pvp and full loot games. Those games will gather the players like me who are sick of what had become to the mmorpg games we have now. I dont care about the sub count, i just want my style of game to stay alive.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
The confusion everybody seems to make between sandbox and open pvp / full loot is what makes this genre of MMORPG a tiny niche. Many think "sandbox" means mindless frag fest. The only hope for real sandbox players is that some developers, maybe Star Vault, deals with those face rollers appropriately by putting the right rules and restrictions in their game so that real sandbox gameplay is possible, which means many different play styles and not the next version of quake arena.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
How does he KNOW?you NEVER know what you are going to get,that is why there is refunds and warranties and laws in palce to "protect" the consumer.
IMO game developers have been unjustly shrouded by their claim to copyrights.I think gamers should have 30 days or a set time ,EVEN after opening the product to return it for a refund,this is how EVERYTHING else in life works,game devs should NOT be shrouded differently.
If this was actually the case,i bet there would eventually be a HUGE turnaround in game quality.No more screwing around,you deliver a complete project or the gamer will return the garbage to the sender.
There is one other aspect to games i think needs changing and it WIL L,i'tll just take time.That is the TOS that games set forth.They literally FORCE you to sign the waiver before login.Well you have not even seen what you are getting into yet,how can you agree to something before you even see it?Then these games ALWAYS try to word it so you are totally liable for everything and they are liable for nothing.The laws have never been to involved with gaming,so there really is very little law,this is why they get away with the BS,we just need some good lawyers to start making these games pay for their BS.
Example.if a game allows itself to ruin your gaming experience to witch you have paid for and have a right to expect the game to function in the state you paid for,it should be liable and refund your money.Just as laws in real life,they would still have the option to fix itself.Example the game allows hackers to take it over,or RMT infest it therefor you cannot login,or have VERY long waits.You do not and did not pay for any of that,there for the game should be liable.Or when a game CLEARLY states you are paying for a 30 day subscription,yet the game is NOT available for 30 days,then you deserve a refund,no ifs ands or buts.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
How does he KNOW?you NEVER know what you are going to get,that is why there is refunds and warranties and laws in palce to "protect" the consumer.
It was written all over the preorder page what one would get in beta. The devs were perfectly honest, impatient kids who thought they would play an almost finished game for months for free (without monthly fee) choose to ignore their warnings, or didn't have the reading comprehension skill required to understand them.
There's no lie, no scam, and therefore no need to protect the consumers. But the modern society and specially the kids and teenagers seem to be unable to take responsibilities for their actions and always have to blame someone else. Blame parents feeding them everything they want instead of making them work for it, I guess.
Yes, I'm a bit angry. As much as for Darkfail, the developer repeatedly and straight faced LIED to all players and future players, as much the MO devs have, for now, not lied a single time, and always warned beta would be very rough. Refunding perfectly warned people is silly, and should not happen.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
How does he KNOW?you NEVER know what you are going to get,that is why there is refunds and warranties and laws in palce to "protect" the consumer.
IMO game developers have been unjustly shrouded by their claim to copyrights.I think gamers should have 30 days or a set time ,EVEN after opening the product to return it for a refund,this is how EVERYTHING else in life works,game devs should NOT be shrouded differently.
If this was actually the case,i bet there would eventually be a HUGE turnaround in game quality.No more screwing around,you deliver a complete project or the gamer will return the garbage to the sender.
There is one other aspect to games i think needs changing and it WIL L,i'tll just take time.That is the TOS that games set forth.They literally FORCE you to sign the waiver before login.Well you have not even seen what you are getting into yet,how can you agree to something before you even see it?Then these games ALWAYS try to word it so you are totally liable for everything and they are liable for nothing.The laws have never been to involved with gaming,so there really is very little law,this is why they get away with the BS,we just need some good lawyers to start making these games pay for their BS.
Example.if a game allows itself to ruin your gaming experience to witch you have paid for and have a right to expect the game to function in the state you paid for,it should be liable and refund your money.Just as laws in real life,they would still have the option to fix itself.Example the game allows hackers to take it over,or RMT infest it therefor you cannot login,or have VERY long waits.You do not and did not pay for any of that,there for the game should be liable.Or when a game CLEARLY states you are paying for a 30 day subscription,yet the game is NOT available for 30 days,then you deserve a refund,no ifs ands or buts.
Dead on man, can't really add much to your post.
Of course the grammer and puncuation Nazi's will hammer you since they have no point of contention that would hold water.
How does he KNOW?you NEVER know what you are going to get,that is why there is refunds and warranties and laws in palce to "protect" the consumer.
IMO game developers have been unjustly shrouded by their claim to copyrights.I think gamers should have 30 days or a set time ,EVEN after opening the product to return it for a refund,this is how EVERYTHING else in life works,game devs should NOT be shrouded differently.
If this was actually the case,i bet there would eventually be a HUGE turnaround in game quality.No more screwing around,you deliver a complete project or the gamer will return the garbage to the sender.
There is one other aspect to games i think needs changing and it WIL L,i'tll just take time.That is the TOS that games set forth.They literally FORCE you to sign the waiver before login.Well you have not even seen what you are getting into yet,how can you agree to something before you even see it?Then these games ALWAYS try to word it so you are totally liable for everything and they are liable for nothing.The laws have never been to involved with gaming,so there really is very little law,this is why they get away with the BS,we just need some good lawyers to start making these games pay for their BS.
Example.if a game allows itself to ruin your gaming experience to witch you have paid for and have a right to expect the game to function in the state you paid for,it should be liable and refund your money.Just as laws in real life,they would still have the option to fix itself.Example the game allows hackers to take it over,or RMT infest it therefor you cannot login,or have VERY long waits.You do not and did not pay for any of that,there for the game should be liable.Or when a game CLEARLY states you are paying for a 30 day subscription,yet the game is NOT available for 30 days,then you deserve a refund,no ifs ands or buts.
The Korrigan explained it.
Ok this is hilarious, if a game had a 30 day return policy we would no longer have new game coming out because I easily beat most games in under a week if I have an open day. Only games that might be ok is MMO's and even than more than likely they would either be losing money or barely making any because all the people that decide they don't really care for the game or burn themselves out because they played for 8 hours a day for 20 days will demand a refund. So your way would basically ruin the gaming industry.
I admit that I don't like having to sign the ToS before even seeing the game, I also admit that if an expansion has a big enough demand of wanting an old server with the old game on it they should do something like that and give people a refund, thats the main reason I quit WoW and SWG. WoW ended up to easy and SWG I don't wanna go into. I will say that if your game gets hacked it is actually infact your fault, and atleast with WoW they do help their customers if its not a constant thing but if your account continues to be hacked one the person who owns the account might be selling the account over and over again and continues to recall it, or they are just a very dense and continue to make the same mistakes over and over again like downloading shit from e-mails like things that say Cataclysm Beta Download or anything like that.
Anyone looking for a refund are people who bought the game without their parents permission, didn't understand what they were buying or having buyers remorse.
All of these issues can be dealt with in the first week. After that it's procrastination and just idle complaints and badmouthing, because they themselves are no financially responsible and arbitrarily by sh!t they don't need ..!
Honestly, why is this thread still going?
/end thread?
Or could it be that they did not like the state of the game and decided to jump from a sinking ship?
Some seem to think that state of beta is not a valid reason for a refund. Why is that? The state of beta is an indication on how much work is left to make the game to a finished state and if released Q4 2009 then what kind of state will it be?
So far I haven't seen a decent video with magic, crafting and large battles. If those are not even in the game yet then what is the chance that they will be implemented and properly tested in 2-3 months?
My gaming blog
People who canceled at this stage were either those who discovered that they do not like the style of the game or those having weak nerves and did not stand out of beta crashes and bugs, most of them might aslo too weak to stay longer in the harsh game environment of MO.
People who canceled at this stage were either those who discovered that they do not like the style of the game or those having weak nerves and did not stand out of beta crashes and bugs, most of them might aslo too weak to stay longer in the harsh game environment of MO.
Could also be people that paid expecting the company to deliver on what they sold them. To wit: Product to be delivered the beginning of Sep. Has anyone gotten their boxed copy yet? That is fraud in the US my friend and actually SV is currently on the wrong side of US law.
They have not notified anyone of a delay in delivery and given them the option to either accept the delay or a refund. Not only is that the law, that is what every CC merchants agreement I have ever read states. So they are getting on thinner and thinner ice as time goes on.
That is how I would want to be known in the game world, as the company that commits credit card fraud and breaks consumer credit laws. Great way to start off.
Of course due to the large number of mouth breathers in the MMORPG world they would still do ok. Hell look at Dorkfail and it's customer base. Lied to since before beta started and they still slavishly slobber over anything Tacos says.
People who canceled at this stage were either those who discovered that they do not like the style of the game or those having weak nerves and did not stand out of beta crashes and bugs, most of them might aslo too weak to stay longer in the harsh game environment of MO.
Could also be people that paid expecting the company to deliver on what they sold them. To wit: Product to be delivered the beginning of Sep. Has anyone gotten their boxed copy yet? That is fraud in the US my friend and actually SV is currently on the wrong side of US law.
They have not notified anyone of a delay in delivery and given them the option to either accept the delay or a refund. Not only is that the law, that is what every CC merchants agreement I have ever read states. So they are getting on thinner and thinner ice as time goes on.
That is how I would want to be known in the game world, as the company that commits credit card fraud and breaks consumer credit laws. Great way to start off.
Of course due to the large number of mouth breathers in the MMORPG world they would still do ok. Hell look at Dorkfail and it's customer base. Lied to since before beta started and they still slavishly slobber over anything Tacos says.
Star Vault clearly stated their way of doing beta test. It is a staged beta, features are taken away and added when the previous are tested and debugged. It is not supposed to be fun. The beta is definitivly not the game people purchase. Some people do not read and blame SV for their own misstake. I understand when people find things does not work as they expected, they are angry. But this anger usualy turns to the other part, no matter whose fault it was, as fools always do.