What I don't understand are the people who play open pvp servers that are free for all yet complain when they get ganked ?
In SWG I used to go out and locate Imperial Missions and hide within the structure and wait. Eventually someone would show up for that mission and they'd get promptly killed. Some of the rants I got were insane. I would be logical and these people were going berserk from getting killed while doing a faction mission that made them open to pvp. Eventually they'd form a large zerg and go running around like idiots shouting challenges. Obviously I'd relocate and return a few hours later once the zerg dissipated and do it all over again.
In DAOC you got more exp and better chance at loot if you exp'd in the frontier. I did it all the time. Sure you'd get ganked once in awhile by 50th lvl guys. So what. I knew that was the risk but it was worthwhile. I didn't get mad. Instead I'd log in my of my 50's that was nearby and kill them back. The one thing I miss considerably from DAOC was the sense that the guild and alliance I was in actively cared about their frontier being invaded. Our alliance would form groups to immediately respond and counter if attacked by Albion or Hibernia.
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
WOW instanced pvp was REQUIRED in part due to the massive overpopulation of Alliance. Once reason you guys complained about your queue times so much. Without instanced pvp you wouldn't have a game because all the horde players would've quit from being perma camped by alliance zergs.
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
I agree, this is what made Ultima Online so exciting when it first came out. You had murderers ambushing. You had players that would hit then run, hoping to bring you to their gang where they would slaughter. Or sometimes you had a PK hunter group going after the PKs. Great times indeed!
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
Making a death penalty minor makes for a couple of things.
What is it with today's generation of players that they HAVE to be rewarded for everything? Isn't fighting someone in a close battle and winning reward enough? Or even losing, but gaining valuable knowledge of what to do differently next time from the experience?
The only way I can see PvP working is to make a 5 to 8 lvl rule, where another player is only red/attackable within that range. UNLESS you want to be outside of that range, kill them, and take criminal hits (Flagged so you can't go into towns/use vendors for a fix time limit, harsher death penalty). This somewhat eliminates constant ganking, which I bet more than anything is why PvP in most games is slow.
Every PvP game I have ever tried (Except in EVE where it is actually fun and done well) it is nothing but high levels greifing constantly and talking trash as if it is tough to kill someone 20 lvls lower. Most people would like to PvP, I mean, it's more fun to fight something less predictable after all....but when it's simply the above mentioned scenario, what fun is that? Except for the scumbucket high lvl.
What kills me is when a death penalty is mentioned, the PK'ers are the first to scream about it. They want all the glory, and none of the possible penalties of defeat/failure. Hence, why they attack low lvls mostly. Good coming with the bad goes hand in hand. If you can't fight those in your range because your afraid of losing, etc, and there for have to attack low lvls, expect a penalty.
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
Making a death penalty minor makes for a couple of things.
What is it with today's generation of players that they HAVE to be rewarded for everything? Isn't fighting someone in a close battle and winning reward enough? Or even losing, but gaining valuable knowledge of what to do differently next time from the experience?
The only way I can see PvP working is to make a 5 to 8 lvl rule, where another player is only red/attackable within that range. UNLESS you want to be outside of that range, kill them, and take criminal hits (Flagged so you can't go into towns/use vendors for a fix time limit, harsher death penalty). This somewhat eliminates constant ganking, which I bet more than anything is why PvP in most games is slow.
Every PvP game I have ever tried (Except in EVE where it is actually fun and done well) it is nothing but high levels greifing constantly and talking trash as if it is tough to kill someone 20 lvls lower. Most people would like to PvP, I mean, it's more fun to fight something less predictable after all....but when it's simply the above mentioned scenario, what fun is that? Except for the scumbucket high lvl.
What kills me is when a death penalty is mentioned, the PK'ers are the first to scream about it. They want all the glory, and none of the possible penalties of defeat/failure. Hence, why they attack low lvls mostly. Good coming with the bad goes hand in hand. If you can't fight those in your range because your afraid of losing, etc, and there for have to attack low lvls, expect a penalty.
First, if you have a heavy(or even medium) death penalty, fewer people will PvP. I know this from personal experience over many, many games. Make the death penalty harsh enough, and most people will not even bother with the game. That automatically niches such a game.
What is it with some of yesterdays generation(I started in UO so I'm also that) that they can't see the reason for cost/benefit analysis? Why should I spend my play time doing something that doesn't advance my character? MMO PvP is seldom about personal skill as good FPS games are. Its more about stacking up all of the advantages(out leveling, out numbering, out gearing and attacking while engaged with a mob) and only then attacking. Thats one of the reasons I want no part of MMO PvP.
Next, *every* "new and improved" method to "control", "moderate", "limit" ganking/griefing has *failed*. It always leads to an endless arms race between the Dev's and the gankers/griefers. Since you mentioned Eve, look at the evolution of Concord as an example of such.
Games in the west that do not allow for PvE realms(with PvP an option by server side flag) have been demonstrated to niche themselves. Thats simply the nature of the demographics. There are many more of us CareBears than there are hard core PvP types.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
It's also ridiculous think your way of playing is the only way. I dont like total hardcore games. Its crap. its a game, not some exclusive clique in highschool. Just because you make it to max level in a month doesnt mean a damn thing at all because you didn't include factors such as how many hours per day you play, if you play with a group, ect.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
It's also ridiculous think your way of playing is the only way. I dont like total hardcore games. Its crap. its a game, not some exclusive clique in highschool. Just because you make it to max level in a month doesnt mean a damn thing at all because you didn't include factors such as how many hours per day you play, if you play with a group, ect.
Typical reply. I never said my style of play is the only way, or that it should be. However, their are a thousand MMO's out there that cater to your instant gratification style as it is. I was simply saying that it would be nice for just one company to step up and have the bean bags to make a game with some meaning. Not just the simple cookie cutter garbage MMO's have become in recent years. As I said before...MMO's in the beginning were built around community, adventure, and epic quests. This instant gratification catering is for console games and should stay there in my opinion.
But hey, if some companies want to do that because their passion lies more with making tons of money than making a quality stand out game, so be it. Just be nice to see one company actually put the passion back into making a quality game first and foremost is all. The money comes with it. But even if I WERE asking for them to cater one game to hardcore players who enjoyed the occasional grind, long chain quests, and long leveling...is that too much to ask in an MMO world saturated with what I mentioned in the first paragraph? I assure you that their are plenty of players that would like such a game, and that would keep the revenue coming for the company who did so. Just look at EVE Online for example. CCP made a game with a steep learning curve and huge game world. Sure, it doesn't boast 11 million subscriber's, but it is still going strong, AND GROWING after 6 years on the market. It IS possible to NOT follow the rest of the sheep and make a great game that is difficult, which to some is the fun of it all.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
Sounds like Everquest. Having to sit in one area killing trash for hours possibly days hoping for the rare spawn to show up. Hoping other players wouldn't try to kill steal it from you. Then realizing the item you need is a rare drop from a rare spawn forcing you to camp the area for days possibly weeks. EQ had numerous ridiculous TIME SINKS not quests like this. You actually liked that ?
Epic quests like the shadowknight which required rare drops from planes of sky, hate, fear off the Gods (final bosses). Then you had to hand them in for a sword that had almost the same stats as the sword you handed in (before they upgraded it). All of these places required raids to complete which meant more then likely you had 2-3 other people who wanted the same item. You call it epic, I call it a waste of time.
Judging on the success of WOW you can say that people prefer their style over EQ's old example.
I do however agree on your levelling statement. I went back to WOW after a year and made a hunter twink. It surprised me to see all these level 70 players who had absolutely no idea how to play their class. I asked for a guildmate level 70 to take me through wailing caves. Believe it or not this 70th newb almost died. WOW levelling is far too easy and it leads to people learning how to actually play at final levels. I tried joining groups on my main characters in some pickupraids and left out of frustration the general ability of the players seemed to have degraded.
Open PvP doesn't sell well. For all of Eve's "greatness", the majority of people NEVER partake in PvP. For all those hunters out there, there has to be "victims", which this article glosses over. No one wants to be the victim. In a balanced battleground scenario, you know the odds, you know basically its an even fight with skill (hopefully) determining the outcome. Not so in Open PvP. Here, numbers rule the day. 6 Hunters will eat a solo hunter for lunch. But most often, it isn't even a fight, its an escape attempt. Most of the time, the "Victims" will see the hunters and run for their lives, not turning to engage. This type of PvP is boring as hell to me, and to most people. I like *fights* not *ganks*. This is why PvP in MMORPG's doesn't work for most people outside of carefully controled BG instances. Aion is already showing the pain and suffering from having to deal with PvP in their system. Having to lock sides and force people to one side so the server doesn't get out of balance. Sad. This is why PvP should be a seperate "add on" to a world, rather than the focus. Balance will never be right (skill based or class based), server numbers will never be even, one side will win more, the other side will switch servers/quit, first side wins even more, second side switches/quits even more, rinse repeat. Even Eve's "no side" based PvP has myriad of issues. Most people choose not to partake, making a vast amount of space (And work) pointless. They keep trying to force people into PvP, and it will never work. The risk vs reward is not there in Eve for most people.
Thats because there is no consequences. If the 'wolves" entered into permadeath mode at some point, or at least skill loss on pvp death, it would be something for the role player instead of what we're used to. Developers won't do that though.
This is the exact reason PvP in Lineage II was so great. In that game if you ganked people(killed them without them fighting back) you were flagged red as a PKer. This added a great aspect to the game as when this happened the hunter became the hunted. Some of the best times I had in that game was hunting down PKers. Also if you were flagged red you had a much greater chance of dropping your items on death so hunting PKers could be profitable as well. These aspects of the game helped control out and out ganking pretty well. Sure there were PKers but there were also PK hunters so it kept the whole system in check so ganking didn't get out of hand.
Also in Lineage II there was the clan warfare system. This was a system where clans or alliances could declare war on each other. When this happened anyone in the opposing clan(s) became fair game. We would take war parties and go and hunt down parties of the opposing clan. This was great because you never knew what you would run into around the next corner. Many times we would be slaughtering a party and then out of nowhere like 20 of their clannies would show up and the battle would turn in an instant. It was this element of unpredictability that made the PvP in that game so much fun. Also the fact that these battles could happen anywhere in the game world.
The main problem with PvP in games now is it's to limited. PvP shouldn't be corralled as this makes it predictable and not very fun. If your gonna add PvP to your game as an afterthought don't even bother or just limit it to 1v1, party vs party or even Guild vs Guild duels. At least in this way the PvP could take place out in the game world where it should be.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
Sounds like Everquest. Having to sit in one area killing trash for hours possibly days hoping for the rare spawn to show up. Hoping other players wouldn't try to kill steal it from you. Then realizing the item you need is a rare drop from a rare spawn forcing you to camp the area for days possibly weeks. EQ had numerous ridiculous TIME SINKS not quests like this. You actually liked that ?
Epic quests like the shadowknight which required rare drops from planes of sky, hate, fear off the Gods (final bosses). Then you had to hand them in for a sword that had almost the same stats as the sword you handed in (before they upgraded it). All of these places required raids to complete which meant more then likely you had 2-3 other people who wanted the same item. You call it epic, I call it a waste of time.
Judging on the success of WOW you can say that people prefer their style over EQ's old example.
I do however agree on your levelling statement. I went back to WOW after a year and made a hunter twink. It surprised me to see all these level 70 players who had absolutely no idea how to play their class. I asked for a guildmate level 70 to take me through wailing caves. Believe it or not this 70th newb almost died. WOW levelling is far too easy and it leads to people learning how to actually play at final levels. I tried joining groups on my main characters in some pickupraids and left out of frustration the general ability of the players seemed to have degraded.
Actually?....yeah. Well, I liked that I could sit in an area and grind mobs...and their was a chance they could drop almost anything. Loot drops were pretty random, which is what made it exciting for me. I guess what I miss most about EQ and games like it from back in the day is the community. It was just that, a community. Great people....some who roleplayed, which I didn't do much at all, but didn't mind. It just lent to the immersion for me. Helpful, friendly players which some of became good friends throughout my time in the game.
These days, due to the quickness of virtually everything in MMO's, from leveling, to the ability to blow through dungeons and zones due to the easiness of it all, it seems no one wants the time to meet others and find adventuring buddies to...well, adventure with on a constant basis. Only if it serves THEIR purposes and usually for only as long as it takes to do so.
As for leveling? Yeah, barely anyone now seems to know how to play their classes in games. Part of the reason for all the cries of nerfs. It's not that some classes are that borked (Some cases they are), it's that the players are and don't know how to play their classes because the leveling is so easy that they don't take the time to get to know their abilities and how to use them properly. This is why I feel slow leveling is a must, on top of the fact that you honestly shouldn't be able to hit top level in a month, sometimes less. You get no feeling of personal accomplishment being top level in a month, especially in a game your paying monthly for. The reason? Because half your server is there as well already. It took me a year to get to level 65 in EQ, and I was a religious player. I didn't feel I needed to rush to get there because their was plenty to do before reaching top level. Plus, everything was harder to do then too making it a slower haul.
When you were finally at top level in EQ, you were actually someone. Lower players looked up to you for advice, directions, help, etc. Now, your just another number amongst a sea of top levels that have nothing to do but gank lowbies (If on a PvP server), or start an alt to get to top level in a month too. It's meaningless.
As far as the PvE vs PvP response posts, i think some have it right. Unfortunately, every game now includes some form of lame PvP. If we only had more PvP-based games, the PvE players wouldnt have to deal with us bloodthirsty bastards as we would be elsewhere.
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Literally the best MMO, maybe the best game, ive ever played.
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Literally the best MMO, maybe the best game, ive ever played.
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Fixing the bugs and other "issues" wouldn't have really made that much of a difference in their numbers. There is a LIMITED demographic for those types of games in the west. I went through that kill or be killed phase myself. But its tiring having to look over ones shoulder all the damn time. As time went on, more and more people grew tired of it. That is one of the reasons that MMO games that do not have PvE servers niche themselves in the west(and have for years now). Its not just the games that have changed. The audience for games has as well.
Personally I don't feel PvP should even be in MMO's. It ruins the communities of games that implement it with massive amounts of idiots and immaturity. MMO's WERE all about community at one time and is the way it should of stayed.
I'd like to present the opposite - In games with PvP, specifically non-faction PvP, stronger bonds are formed between the players and more advanced communities develop. One supporting piece of data is that most of the longest running and largest guilds are PvP focused or PvP heavy guilds.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
For what? WoW? Maybe for bonds within Guilds, but I am talking about the community as a whole.
As am I. There are more community events, in-game player organizations and diplomatic interactions in games like SB, UO and EVE than you will find in most other MMOs.
In PvE games, there is no accountability or personal responsibility. There's also usually little or no way to have any kind of an impact on the game world. There is rarely reason to ever bond with others other than to better one's personal gear. There is often no way to improve or modify the game world around you (after all, that would affect others in the game and we wouldn't want to do that!), thus no way to work towards a common goal of effecting a positive change. In PvE-only MMOs, the roleplay is also crippled, thus often crippling the already small and fractured RP community.
Eh, we're sidetracking. I'm more than up for continuing this conversation in PMs if you want. Cheers!
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
For what? WoW? Maybe for bonds within Guilds, but I am talking about the community as a whole.
As am I. There are more community events, in-game player organizations and diplomatic interactions in games like SB, UO and EVE than you will find in most other MMOs.
In PvE games, there is no accountability or personal responsibility. There's also usually little or no way to have any kind of an impact on the game world. There is rarely reason to ever bond with others other than to better one's personal gear. There is often no way to improve or modify the game world around you (after all, that would affect others in the game and we wouldn't want to do that!), thus no way to work towards a common goal of effecting a positive change. In PvE-only MMOs, the roleplay is also crippled, thus often crippling the already small and fractured RP community.
Eh, we're sidetracking. I'm more than up for continuing this conversation in PMs if you want. Cheers!
Um....I played EQ, as well as countless other PvE (mainly) MMO's. There is most definitely accountability (I.E. Your actions in raids, boss encounters, how you portray your guild to those around you as a member (ninja looting, trash talking, how often you help out guild members, etc, etc.) It's just different versions of accountability from PvP MMO's. There hasn't been any MMO's that have released that have made it so you can impact the game world, PvE-wise that is....yet.Still hoping for it someday.
Look, we could argue points back and forth until our fingers are bleeding. Both sides of the coin have their merits...I am simply saying that from personal experience with both PvE and PvP MMO's that I have found by far that in PvE MMO's there is more of a community as a whole than in PvP MMO's.....with the exception of EVE which had a great community server wide for the most part. PvP MMO's tend to attract more of the idiots I guess is what I am getting at, which puts more stress on creating cohesive community. Not that it can't be done, but it's just tougher IMO.
Does he really think he can convince any developer or community to change a school of thought regarding pvp?
That article tries to subrepticiously bypass years of experience.
The thrill of hunting is awesome, but why dont we have that anymore? Is the writter to naive or is the writter trying to manipulate people using such watered down argument... Whatever, it doesnt achieve anything.
In any game
where people can kill each other
at will
the result is always the same
A minority of the population
will harass
the majority of the population
over and over
Untill the game dies down
because noone will keep playing it
You cant make a persistant game wich differences in power and allow such power to be used against others.
Its simple, some people will be superior than others, always a minory. And the majority will be inferior.
Why would someone play a game in wich they are inferior AND the superior players are allowed to frustrate, humiliate and destroy your entertainment for their amusement?
People get pissed off when there are slight minor balance issues. Even when they cant be exploited on it by other players directly, just the fact that they are less effective or stronger against the environment is cause for a huge uproar. Add to it the ability to rape others over and over for the thrill of the hunt and your game is going down next year january 1st.
The thrill of the hunt causes more negative effects than positive ones.
If power is unequal, and power is always uneven in any Massive MORPGs.
People dont accept to be owned consistently, in any situation. Its an absolute truth.
If their opponents spent more time and effort, if their opponent has more skill, it doesnt matter. People dont accept to be owned over and over. And thats what MMORPGs present, situations where the differences of power persist through time for the majority of the players. You cant balance individual player skill, time and effort spent, gear/level, organization, internet connection/hardware, experience, knowledge of game mechanics, etc. BALANCE IS JUST AN ILUSION, IT WORKS AS LONG AS PEOPLE CANT GET WOKE UP BY BEING CONSTANTLY HARASSED.
Some simple absolute truths.
there is no balance, its mainly an ilusion.
People dont accept being in the inferior side of the balance persistantly (this means, not only being able to be attacked at any time by anyone, but a game mechanics where people cant avoid it even staying in npc, organization protected areas)
A minory will be in the superior side of the balance and the majority will be in the inferior side of it.
The thrill of the hunt would expose those inconvenient truths as a slap in the face of 90% of the player base.
It happened before, it doesnt work. Not even for a niche game.
When you were finally at top level in EQ, you were actually someone. Lower players looked up to you for advice, directions, help, etc. Now, your just another number amongst a sea of top levels that have nothing to do but gank lowbies (If on a PvP server), or start an alt to get to top level in a month too. It's meaningless.
Yeah, in original EQ before any expansions troll shadowknight had the worst racial and class penalties. They took forever to level and upon reaching 50th level my character was one of only 3-4 others on the entire server. Achieving 50th back then was a major achievement and yes people did look up to you especially lower level shadowknights who would ask for advice. The other bonus of there being so few high level TSK's...I remember guilds raiding plane of fear and I'd be doing something else and they send me a tell saying Umbral Armor dropped and there was no 50th shadowknights and to come in and get it. I got a full set of umbral armor that way which at the time was the best you could get.
this whole sense of community is better in PvE or PvP, is really just a matter of oppinion. I personally can't feel part of a community in a PvE game. It's because simply I don't give a sh... PvP games, however are entirely different for me & you start developing some respect for the person that leads you into battle, the guy that comes up with a cool strategy, the guys that gave you a good fight, the guy that skillfully killed you or outsmarted you in a duel. Especially sandbox games are very strongly politically developed. You got your interest, your allies, your enemies, your nemesis, your traitors & your spies. A good part of the game unfolds on the boards. PvP forges friendships. You go through all kindsa sh... together, so you tend to stick together. PvP buddies are like army buddies. You've shared a lot, you know a lot about each other, you owe smth to each other. PvE buddies are more like country club buddies. It's.....whatever.
Comments
What I don't understand are the people who play open pvp servers that are free for all yet complain when they get ganked ?
In SWG I used to go out and locate Imperial Missions and hide within the structure and wait. Eventually someone would show up for that mission and they'd get promptly killed. Some of the rants I got were insane. I would be logical and these people were going berserk from getting killed while doing a faction mission that made them open to pvp. Eventually they'd form a large zerg and go running around like idiots shouting challenges. Obviously I'd relocate and return a few hours later once the zerg dissipated and do it all over again.
In DAOC you got more exp and better chance at loot if you exp'd in the frontier. I did it all the time. Sure you'd get ganked once in awhile by 50th lvl guys. So what. I knew that was the risk but it was worthwhile. I didn't get mad. Instead I'd log in my of my 50's that was nearby and kill them back. The one thing I miss considerably from DAOC was the sense that the guild and alliance I was in actively cared about their frontier being invaded. Our alliance would form groups to immediately respond and counter if attacked by Albion or Hibernia.
I never got that in WOW, people were more of the "How can I benefit from this and if I don't benefit I don't wanna participate," ideal.
WOW instanced pvp was REQUIRED in part due to the massive overpopulation of Alliance. Once reason you guys complained about your queue times so much. Without instanced pvp you wouldn't have a game because all the horde players would've quit from being perma camped by alliance zergs.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
I agree, this is what made Ultima Online so exciting when it first came out. You had murderers ambushing. You had players that would hit then run, hoping to bring you to their gang where they would slaughter. Or sometimes you had a PK hunter group going after the PKs. Great times indeed!
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
Making a death penalty minor makes for a couple of things.
1. Meaningless deaths.
2. Suicide players because of #1.
What is it with today's generation of players that they HAVE to be rewarded for everything? Isn't fighting someone in a close battle and winning reward enough? Or even losing, but gaining valuable knowledge of what to do differently next time from the experience?
The only way I can see PvP working is to make a 5 to 8 lvl rule, where another player is only red/attackable within that range. UNLESS you want to be outside of that range, kill them, and take criminal hits (Flagged so you can't go into towns/use vendors for a fix time limit, harsher death penalty). This somewhat eliminates constant ganking, which I bet more than anything is why PvP in most games is slow.
Every PvP game I have ever tried (Except in EVE where it is actually fun and done well) it is nothing but high levels greifing constantly and talking trash as if it is tough to kill someone 20 lvls lower. Most people would like to PvP, I mean, it's more fun to fight something less predictable after all....but when it's simply the above mentioned scenario, what fun is that? Except for the scumbucket high lvl.
What kills me is when a death penalty is mentioned, the PK'ers are the first to scream about it. They want all the glory, and none of the possible penalties of defeat/failure. Hence, why they attack low lvls mostly. Good coming with the bad goes hand in hand. If you can't fight those in your range because your afraid of losing, etc, and there for have to attack low lvls, expect a penalty.
its because the WoW version of pvp gave people loot when they did pvp. If people weren't gonna get loot they'd be like "why do it?". Everything now a days you have to reward a player when he does something you want them to do which is weak.
Ah, so one should run around and kill enemy players for no reason?(other than they are enemies) that makes the usual sense...Lets see, if I kill a mob I get experience and a chance of loot. If I kill a player I get zip. Lets spend our time killing players!...(rolls eyes). As a normal rule, one gets more of what one rewards. If you want more player PvP, then reward it and make the death penalty minor.
Making a death penalty minor makes for a couple of things.
1. Meaningless deaths.
2. Suicide players because of #1.
What is it with today's generation of players that they HAVE to be rewarded for everything? Isn't fighting someone in a close battle and winning reward enough? Or even losing, but gaining valuable knowledge of what to do differently next time from the experience?
The only way I can see PvP working is to make a 5 to 8 lvl rule, where another player is only red/attackable within that range. UNLESS you want to be outside of that range, kill them, and take criminal hits (Flagged so you can't go into towns/use vendors for a fix time limit, harsher death penalty). This somewhat eliminates constant ganking, which I bet more than anything is why PvP in most games is slow.
Every PvP game I have ever tried (Except in EVE where it is actually fun and done well) it is nothing but high levels greifing constantly and talking trash as if it is tough to kill someone 20 lvls lower. Most people would like to PvP, I mean, it's more fun to fight something less predictable after all....but when it's simply the above mentioned scenario, what fun is that? Except for the scumbucket high lvl.
What kills me is when a death penalty is mentioned, the PK'ers are the first to scream about it. They want all the glory, and none of the possible penalties of defeat/failure. Hence, why they attack low lvls mostly. Good coming with the bad goes hand in hand. If you can't fight those in your range because your afraid of losing, etc, and there for have to attack low lvls, expect a penalty.
First, if you have a heavy(or even medium) death penalty, fewer people will PvP. I know this from personal experience over many, many games. Make the death penalty harsh enough, and most people will not even bother with the game. That automatically niches such a game.
What is it with some of yesterdays generation(I started in UO so I'm also that) that they can't see the reason for cost/benefit analysis? Why should I spend my play time doing something that doesn't advance my character? MMO PvP is seldom about personal skill as good FPS games are. Its more about stacking up all of the advantages(out leveling, out numbering, out gearing and attacking while engaged with a mob) and only then attacking. Thats one of the reasons I want no part of MMO PvP.
Next, *every* "new and improved" method to "control", "moderate", "limit" ganking/griefing has *failed*. It always leads to an endless arms race between the Dev's and the gankers/griefers. Since you mentioned Eve, look at the evolution of Concord as an example of such.
Games in the west that do not allow for PvE realms(with PvP an option by server side flag) have been demonstrated to niche themselves. Thats simply the nature of the demographics. There are many more of us CareBears than there are hard core PvP types.
Again, all reasons PvP should be left to console games or FPS games. As well as easy-mode. Wish for the days of MMO's being a small market niche group who LIKE long leveling, epic chain quests with meaning, etc. Guess I am dreaming for those days are gone and replaced with easy cookie cutter garbage that tries to implement PvP where it doesn't belong and ruins communities...which are partly what MMO's were built on creating. Oh well.
I mean, if I am going to pay $15 a month for a game, I damn well better not be able to make it to top lvl in a month, have the best gear etc. It's just ridiculous.
Just get over the lack of the hunt in standard mmos like WoW. It doesnt have the FPS style of play. APB will probably have it.
It's also ridiculous think your way of playing is the only way. I dont like total hardcore games. Its crap. its a game, not some exclusive clique in highschool. Just because you make it to max level in a month doesnt mean a damn thing at all because you didn't include factors such as how many hours per day you play, if you play with a group, ect.
It's also ridiculous think your way of playing is the only way. I dont like total hardcore games. Its crap. its a game, not some exclusive clique in highschool. Just because you make it to max level in a month doesnt mean a damn thing at all because you didn't include factors such as how many hours per day you play, if you play with a group, ect.
Typical reply. I never said my style of play is the only way, or that it should be. However, their are a thousand MMO's out there that cater to your instant gratification style as it is. I was simply saying that it would be nice for just one company to step up and have the bean bags to make a game with some meaning. Not just the simple cookie cutter garbage MMO's have become in recent years. As I said before...MMO's in the beginning were built around community, adventure, and epic quests. This instant gratification catering is for console games and should stay there in my opinion.
But hey, if some companies want to do that because their passion lies more with making tons of money than making a quality stand out game, so be it. Just be nice to see one company actually put the passion back into making a quality game first and foremost is all. The money comes with it. But even if I WERE asking for them to cater one game to hardcore players who enjoyed the occasional grind, long chain quests, and long leveling...is that too much to ask in an MMO world saturated with what I mentioned in the first paragraph? I assure you that their are plenty of players that would like such a game, and that would keep the revenue coming for the company who did so. Just look at EVE Online for example. CCP made a game with a steep learning curve and huge game world. Sure, it doesn't boast 11 million subscriber's, but it is still going strong, AND GROWING after 6 years on the market. It IS possible to NOT follow the rest of the sheep and make a great game that is difficult, which to some is the fun of it all.
Sounds like Everquest. Having to sit in one area killing trash for hours possibly days hoping for the rare spawn to show up. Hoping other players wouldn't try to kill steal it from you. Then realizing the item you need is a rare drop from a rare spawn forcing you to camp the area for days possibly weeks. EQ had numerous ridiculous TIME SINKS not quests like this. You actually liked that ?
Epic quests like the shadowknight which required rare drops from planes of sky, hate, fear off the Gods (final bosses). Then you had to hand them in for a sword that had almost the same stats as the sword you handed in (before they upgraded it). All of these places required raids to complete which meant more then likely you had 2-3 other people who wanted the same item. You call it epic, I call it a waste of time.
Judging on the success of WOW you can say that people prefer their style over EQ's old example.
I do however agree on your levelling statement. I went back to WOW after a year and made a hunter twink. It surprised me to see all these level 70 players who had absolutely no idea how to play their class. I asked for a guildmate level 70 to take me through wailing caves. Believe it or not this 70th newb almost died. WOW levelling is far too easy and it leads to people learning how to actually play at final levels. I tried joining groups on my main characters in some pickupraids and left out of frustration the general ability of the players seemed to have degraded.
Thats because there is no consequences. If the 'wolves" entered into permadeath mode at some point, or at least skill loss on pvp death, it would be something for the role player instead of what we're used to. Developers won't do that though.
This is the exact reason PvP in Lineage II was so great. In that game if you ganked people(killed them without them fighting back) you were flagged red as a PKer. This added a great aspect to the game as when this happened the hunter became the hunted. Some of the best times I had in that game was hunting down PKers. Also if you were flagged red you had a much greater chance of dropping your items on death so hunting PKers could be profitable as well. These aspects of the game helped control out and out ganking pretty well. Sure there were PKers but there were also PK hunters so it kept the whole system in check so ganking didn't get out of hand.
Also in Lineage II there was the clan warfare system. This was a system where clans or alliances could declare war on each other. When this happened anyone in the opposing clan(s) became fair game. We would take war parties and go and hunt down parties of the opposing clan. This was great because you never knew what you would run into around the next corner. Many times we would be slaughtering a party and then out of nowhere like 20 of their clannies would show up and the battle would turn in an instant. It was this element of unpredictability that made the PvP in that game so much fun. Also the fact that these battles could happen anywhere in the game world.
The main problem with PvP in games now is it's to limited. PvP shouldn't be corralled as this makes it predictable and not very fun. If your gonna add PvP to your game as an afterthought don't even bother or just limit it to 1v1, party vs party or even Guild vs Guild duels. At least in this way the PvP could take place out in the game world where it should be.
Bren
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Sounds like Everquest. Having to sit in one area killing trash for hours possibly days hoping for the rare spawn to show up. Hoping other players wouldn't try to kill steal it from you. Then realizing the item you need is a rare drop from a rare spawn forcing you to camp the area for days possibly weeks. EQ had numerous ridiculous TIME SINKS not quests like this. You actually liked that ?
Epic quests like the shadowknight which required rare drops from planes of sky, hate, fear off the Gods (final bosses). Then you had to hand them in for a sword that had almost the same stats as the sword you handed in (before they upgraded it). All of these places required raids to complete which meant more then likely you had 2-3 other people who wanted the same item. You call it epic, I call it a waste of time.
Judging on the success of WOW you can say that people prefer their style over EQ's old example.
I do however agree on your levelling statement. I went back to WOW after a year and made a hunter twink. It surprised me to see all these level 70 players who had absolutely no idea how to play their class. I asked for a guildmate level 70 to take me through wailing caves. Believe it or not this 70th newb almost died. WOW levelling is far too easy and it leads to people learning how to actually play at final levels. I tried joining groups on my main characters in some pickupraids and left out of frustration the general ability of the players seemed to have degraded.
Actually?....yeah. Well, I liked that I could sit in an area and grind mobs...and their was a chance they could drop almost anything. Loot drops were pretty random, which is what made it exciting for me. I guess what I miss most about EQ and games like it from back in the day is the community. It was just that, a community. Great people....some who roleplayed, which I didn't do much at all, but didn't mind. It just lent to the immersion for me. Helpful, friendly players which some of became good friends throughout my time in the game.
These days, due to the quickness of virtually everything in MMO's, from leveling, to the ability to blow through dungeons and zones due to the easiness of it all, it seems no one wants the time to meet others and find adventuring buddies to...well, adventure with on a constant basis. Only if it serves THEIR purposes and usually for only as long as it takes to do so.
As for leveling? Yeah, barely anyone now seems to know how to play their classes in games. Part of the reason for all the cries of nerfs. It's not that some classes are that borked (Some cases they are), it's that the players are and don't know how to play their classes because the leveling is so easy that they don't take the time to get to know their abilities and how to use them properly. This is why I feel slow leveling is a must, on top of the fact that you honestly shouldn't be able to hit top level in a month, sometimes less. You get no feeling of personal accomplishment being top level in a month, especially in a game your paying monthly for. The reason? Because half your server is there as well already. It took me a year to get to level 65 in EQ, and I was a religious player. I didn't feel I needed to rush to get there because their was plenty to do before reaching top level. Plus, everything was harder to do then too making it a slower haul.
When you were finally at top level in EQ, you were actually someone. Lower players looked up to you for advice, directions, help, etc. Now, your just another number amongst a sea of top levels that have nothing to do but gank lowbies (If on a PvP server), or start an alt to get to top level in a month too. It's meaningless.
I agree with the article 100%.
As far as the PvE vs PvP response posts, i think some have it right. Unfortunately, every game now includes some form of lame PvP. If we only had more PvP-based games, the PvE players wouldnt have to deal with us bloodthirsty bastards as we would be elsewhere.
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Literally the best MMO, maybe the best game, ive ever played.
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Literally the best MMO, maybe the best game, ive ever played.
NO DOUBT!!!
Damn straight! I was thinking WTF when I read this article & there was nothing on Shadowbane. As far as fights went, between sieges, camping cities, good farming spots, high lvl zones, hot zones, mine fights, rune droppers & vorg droppers, there was always some1 to hunt & kill. If it woundn't have been for the bugs & later on the lack of numbers, this was definitely the best PvP system to date. And the character class/race/gear customisation was the best I've seen. The strategy, tactics & skill of solo & group fighting was one of a kind. The most underrated MMO in the history of MMOs, all thanks to the stupid bugs they fixed too late or never fixed. R.I.P
Fixing the bugs and other "issues" wouldn't have really made that much of a difference in their numbers. There is a LIMITED demographic for those types of games in the west. I went through that kill or be killed phase myself. But its tiring having to look over ones shoulder all the damn time. As time went on, more and more people grew tired of it. That is one of the reasons that MMO games that do not have PvE servers niche themselves in the west(and have for years now). Its not just the games that have changed. The audience for games has as well.
I'd like to present the opposite - In games with PvP, specifically non-faction PvP, stronger bonds are formed between the players and more advanced communities develop. One supporting piece of data is that most of the longest running and largest guilds are PvP focused or PvP heavy guilds.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
For what? WoW?
Maybe for bonds within Guilds, but I am talking about the community as a whole.
As am I. There are more community events, in-game player organizations and diplomatic interactions in games like SB, UO and EVE than you will find in most other MMOs.
In PvE games, there is no accountability or personal responsibility. There's also usually little or no way to have any kind of an impact on the game world. There is rarely reason to ever bond with others other than to better one's personal gear. There is often no way to improve or modify the game world around you (after all, that would affect others in the game and we wouldn't want to do that!), thus no way to work towards a common goal of effecting a positive change. In PvE-only MMOs, the roleplay is also crippled, thus often crippling the already small and fractured RP community.
Eh, we're sidetracking. I'm more than up for continuing this conversation in PMs if you want. Cheers!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
As am I. There are more community events, in-game player organizations and diplomatic interactions in games like SB, UO and EVE than you will find in most other MMOs.
In PvE games, there is no accountability or personal responsibility. There's also usually little or no way to have any kind of an impact on the game world. There is rarely reason to ever bond with others other than to better one's personal gear. There is often no way to improve or modify the game world around you (after all, that would affect others in the game and we wouldn't want to do that!), thus no way to work towards a common goal of effecting a positive change. In PvE-only MMOs, the roleplay is also crippled, thus often crippling the already small and fractured RP community.
Eh, we're sidetracking. I'm more than up for continuing this conversation in PMs if you want. Cheers!
Um....I played EQ, as well as countless other PvE (mainly) MMO's. There is most definitely accountability (I.E. Your actions in raids, boss encounters, how you portray your guild to those around you as a member (ninja looting, trash talking, how often you help out guild members, etc, etc.) It's just different versions of accountability from PvP MMO's. There hasn't been any MMO's that have released that have made it so you can impact the game world, PvE-wise that is....yet.Still hoping for it someday.
Look, we could argue points back and forth until our fingers are bleeding. Both sides of the coin have their merits...I am simply saying that from personal experience with both PvE and PvP MMO's that I have found by far that in PvE MMO's there is more of a community as a whole than in PvP MMO's.....with the exception of EVE which had a great community server wide for the most part. PvP MMO's tend to attract more of the idiots I guess is what I am getting at, which puts more stress on creating cohesive community. Not that it can't be done, but it's just tougher IMO.
The article is ridiculous.
Does he really think he can convince any developer or community to change a school of thought regarding pvp?
That article tries to subrepticiously bypass years of experience.
The thrill of hunting is awesome, but why dont we have that anymore? Is the writter to naive or is the writter trying to manipulate people using such watered down argument... Whatever, it doesnt achieve anything.
In any game
where people can kill each other
at will
the result is always the same
A minority of the population
will harass
the majority of the population
over and over
Untill the game dies down
because noone will keep playing it
You cant make a persistant game wich differences in power and allow such power to be used against others.
Its simple, some people will be superior than others, always a minory. And the majority will be inferior.
Why would someone play a game in wich they are inferior AND the superior players are allowed to frustrate, humiliate and destroy your entertainment for their amusement?
People get pissed off when there are slight minor balance issues. Even when they cant be exploited on it by other players directly, just the fact that they are less effective or stronger against the environment is cause for a huge uproar. Add to it the ability to rape others over and over for the thrill of the hunt and your game is going down next year january 1st.
The thrill of the hunt causes more negative effects than positive ones.
If power is unequal, and power is always uneven in any Massive MORPGs.
People dont accept to be owned consistently, in any situation. Its an absolute truth.
If their opponents spent more time and effort, if their opponent has more skill, it doesnt matter. People dont accept to be owned over and over. And thats what MMORPGs present, situations where the differences of power persist through time for the majority of the players. You cant balance individual player skill, time and effort spent, gear/level, organization, internet connection/hardware, experience, knowledge of game mechanics, etc. BALANCE IS JUST AN ILUSION, IT WORKS AS LONG AS PEOPLE CANT GET WOKE UP BY BEING CONSTANTLY HARASSED.
Some simple absolute truths.
there is no balance, its mainly an ilusion.
People dont accept being in the inferior side of the balance persistantly (this means, not only being able to be attacked at any time by anyone, but a game mechanics where people cant avoid it even staying in npc, organization protected areas)
A minory will be in the superior side of the balance and the majority will be in the inferior side of it.
The thrill of the hunt would expose those inconvenient truths as a slap in the face of 90% of the player base.
It happened before, it doesnt work. Not even for a niche game.
Yeah, in original EQ before any expansions troll shadowknight had the worst racial and class penalties. They took forever to level and upon reaching 50th level my character was one of only 3-4 others on the entire server. Achieving 50th back then was a major achievement and yes people did look up to you especially lower level shadowknights who would ask for advice. The other bonus of there being so few high level TSK's...I remember guilds raiding plane of fear and I'd be doing something else and they send me a tell saying Umbral Armor dropped and there was no 50th shadowknights and to come in and get it. I got a full set of umbral armor that way which at the time was the best you could get.
this whole sense of community is better in PvE or PvP, is really just a matter of oppinion. I personally can't feel part of a community in a PvE game. It's because simply I don't give a sh... PvP games, however are entirely different for me & you start developing some respect for the person that leads you into battle, the guy that comes up with a cool strategy, the guys that gave you a good fight, the guy that skillfully killed you or outsmarted you in a duel. Especially sandbox games are very strongly politically developed. You got your interest, your allies, your enemies, your nemesis, your traitors & your spies. A good part of the game unfolds on the boards. PvP forges friendships. You go through all kindsa sh... together, so you tend to stick together. PvP buddies are like army buddies. You've shared a lot, you know a lot about each other, you owe smth to each other. PvE buddies are more like country club buddies. It's.....whatever.