b) interesting that Blizzard would shred player content for legal content. all you need is a decent contract. but i guess they are afraid of the buddy's buddy's friend to get pissed off and sue. sad world for us gamers then.
Totally understandable. If any part of a player submission showed up in a Blizzard game there's be lawsuits everywhere. This way they are protected from them somewhat.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Before you can be a good MMO designer you need to be an MMO player, and before you start wasting your life as an MMO player, there are a host of single player/non-MM games that any long time gamer can probaly provide of must play games, probably starting with M.U.L.E. to Gold Box to Super Mario Brothers III to Super Metroid all the way up to the GTAs. Designing an MMO is not rocket science, and it's surprising how mediocre most of them really end up. Even WoW, despite it's commercial success, is really only a mediocre title (imo).
Nice article, though I often wonder how detached from game development the writers are these days. I'm aware of what some of them did in the past, but not what they do now...
This touches on the view that MMO players are customers and the developer should listen to the customers to some degree, however companies are not set up this way.
You have developers creating a game that the creative designers came up with, this is and always be the creation of the designers within that development team. They do not view it as a service to thousands of customers, but as a game they want to make and play because they are too detached from the actual live service.
Those within the company who do interact with the customers either don't care about them (Producers / Executives / PR) or have little to no way to interact with the developers either (Customer Support / Game Masters / Community Managers).
Until someone who cares can bridge that communication gap between the customer and the developer, we will not see an improvement in the live service of an MMO.
It's a shame that the blogger got turned down though, I really admire his initiative to try and get his creation made. It's sad to think they probably didn't even look at it although I can understand their legal reasons.
Personally, I also would love to work on an MMO but I think for me that ship has sailed years ago.
Thanks for the great first article Jaime! It's a shame that the blogger got turned down though, I really admire his initiative to try and get his creation made. It's sad to think they probably didn't even look at it although I can understand their legal reasons. Personally, I also would love to work on an MMO but I think for me that ship has sailed years ago.
Never say never...I know guys who got their first position with a game devloper when they were in their mid 40's.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave And it howls! it howls like hell!
What true MMO gamer has never wanted to design their own MMO? It's too bad that $500,000 budget dev teams don't grow on trees, but I believe that passionate gamers have always been the best source of design. I've read that Blizzard only hires passionate gamers, and look at their success, every game they have ever released has been platinum.
I must say I like this new author, and I have mentioned many of the same sentiments myself.
Players always think their idea is correct, and if their idea is ignored or not implemented then it is a "slap in the face." It gets so old reading people's post who say, "You need to do this, it's easy and should only take a minute." That severe lack of knowledge is amazing, and to try to push forward your own ideas when your knowledge of how it works is so little it nothing more then irritating.
Everyone thinks they can design better (I would be lying if I haven't played many games over the years and thought "I would of done this and this differently) but it's one thing to have thoughts and opinions and offer them up. It is another when you try to force them and then throw a hissy fit when a dev hasn't responded to you personally in 2 minutes.
It's good to see other people realise how ridiculous that mentality is and hopefully one day we can reach a point where gamers openly discuss ideas and opinions in a mature way.
It does (and doesn't) surprise me how many people think they could be a game dev. I think I know MMos pretty well at this stage, but I wouldn't dream I could make a good dev just because I have played the games for years. It's like driving, I have been driving for ten years since but it doesn't mean i could make a car (or have the first clue how )
It does (and doesn't) surprise me how many people think they could be a game dev. I think I know MMos pretty well at this stage, but I wouldn't dream I could make a good dev just because I have played the games for years. It's like driving, I have been driving for ten years since but it doesn't mean i could make a car (or have the first clue how )
In university I was given a chemistry project to design study aids for first year students... the project quickly turned from a chemistry project into a psychology project as I had to study thousands of journals on design and how people interact with pictures, audio, video, and writing in order to work out a reasonable balance with highest efficiency.
Developing games is similar. You can know the content such as lore, class balance, skills, bosses, mechanics and so forth, but essential to the building of a good game is the knowledge of how the players will interact with it. If people truly want to become developers they need both artistic design skills and the psychology of how people interact with various mediums.
An interesting article. Thank you. I was curious about if the companies ever considered taking the most popular suggestions and listing them on a page like FAQs explaining why they're not being implimented (yet). It will help the players think that someone is listening to them, see things from the company's point of view, and maybe give them something to look forward to (for example if a player's suggestion is part of the next release). A player can have a great idea and wonder why no one is listening, never realizing the idea has one big flaw that makes it impractical or impossible to add to the game. If they were told why their idea was ignored, it may inspire them to come up with a fix for that flaw.
For example, is there an easy way to move items from one of a player's characters to another? Can the player easily transfer the suit of magic armor from the mage to the fighter? In the games I played, the only way to do that is through a third character which can be troublesome. But if the player can do it by him/herself, it would be a big quality of life improvement. But why haven't the companies done this yet? There has to be a reason. Players are already doing it between themselves so it's not a game balance issue. It would be nice to know why.
I never worked for a game company, but I have alot of work experience for an ASP... and I imagine the dynamics are pretty similar.....
One thing to remember is that, even though they may appear to us like it..."The Devs" aren't a single entity. In any given decent sized company "The Dev's" comprise about a dozen different sub-specialties that are very, very different from each other.... require different sorts of skill-sets....not to mention different personalties.... for some of those sub-sets it's very important to listen to their customers...others not so much... and some that should aren't always very good at it....and others that shouldn't are too good at it.
You've got people who are Designers who figure out what they wany the end Product to do.... but may or may not have any idea how to put the nuts and bolts of it together ( You have no idea how many times over the years I've used the line "That's a really cool idea...give me a staff of 5,000 Engineers and 20 years time....and I MAY figure out how to make it happen")
Then you've got Engineers who are responsible for figuring out how to build the systems that are neccesary for a certain design to work....but may or may not have any idea of what makes a usefull design. ( The converse to the above is the line "That's the smartest, cleverest and most efficient system I've seen.....that no one will ever use.", which I've also used in the past.)
That's just for starters...... and of course the most important thing to remember (especialy in larger companies)....is that you have no idea how many things make it into a product that have absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY Dev decision....or anyone who might even listen to customer Feedback. You have no idea how many (often boneheaded) things make it into a design because they were mandated from above.... usualy by some CEO or Marketing Exec who read it in a magizine article......or who paid some consultant 6 figures to tell them how to be more profitable (hint - stop paying enourmous amounts of money for people to give you the same advice that you could get from a fortune cookie at the $8 chinese buffett.)
You, REALLY, REALLY don't want to know over the years....how many times after reading some Executive mandate, I've turned to my team-mates and said "Didn't we see this on 'the Office' last night?".
So whenever your railing against some truely boneheaded move on some games forums and get nothing except maybe a canned response from the Community Manager....there is a good chance that alot of the Dev team are reading your posts and thinking in thier heads.... "Yeah, everyone here thinks so too....but we have kids and mortgages."
When i was still hopeful and had dreams after i finshed my degree, i was part of a hand held programming email group for the GP32. I got speaking with a games developer and he told me they shred every single document which even looks like it may be a game idea.
He basically pointed out that partly it was down to legalities, in that you out in the big world might think you have a truely unique idea the next best thing since sliced bread. However secretly the games company you have just forwarded your idea to has been working on that same idea for the past 3 years.
If a year later your game appears your going to want a peice of the pie and you would proclaim they "stole" the idea. So he says either they return the envelopes unopened OR they shred them on delivery. THat the only way a company wil ever look at a prospective idea or game plan is if you sub mit a portfolio of what you can do it might be level design a small demo some graphical models. But they will never accept a full games idea proposal.
For gamers who think they have a good idea the one route they can take is creative writing doing short stories or small peices of work.
The other thing is this if you think you can create somthing better then try out realm crafer its going to version 2 soon with updated engine. however i tried to create myself an mmo using realm crafter which i will say is pretty good in terms of tools and layout and by god its a long process.
Comments
Totally understandable. If any part of a player submission showed up in a Blizzard game there's be lawsuits everywhere. This way they are protected from them somewhat.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Before you can be a good MMO designer you need to be an MMO player, and before you start wasting your life as an MMO player, there are a host of single player/non-MM games that any long time gamer can probaly provide of must play games, probably starting with M.U.L.E. to Gold Box to Super Mario Brothers III to Super Metroid all the way up to the GTAs. Designing an MMO is not rocket science, and it's surprising how mediocre most of them really end up. Even WoW, despite it's commercial success, is really only a mediocre title (imo).
Nice article, though I often wonder how detached from game development the writers are these days. I'm aware of what some of them did in the past, but not what they do now...
This touches on the view that MMO players are customers and the developer should listen to the customers to some degree, however companies are not set up this way.
You have developers creating a game that the creative designers came up with, this is and always be the creation of the designers within that development team. They do not view it as a service to thousands of customers, but as a game they want to make and play because they are too detached from the actual live service.
Those within the company who do interact with the customers either don't care about them (Producers / Executives / PR) or have little to no way to interact with the developers either (Customer Support / Game Masters / Community Managers).
Until someone who cares can bridge that communication gap between the customer and the developer, we will not see an improvement in the live service of an MMO.
Thanks for the great first article Jaime!
It's a shame that the blogger got turned down though, I really admire his initiative to try and get his creation made. It's sad to think they probably didn't even look at it although I can understand their legal reasons.
Personally, I also would love to work on an MMO but I think for me that ship has sailed years ago.
Never say never...I know guys who got their first position with a game devloper when they were in their mid 40's.
This sword here at my side dont act the way it should
Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave
Hauling me faster and faster to an early, early grave
And it howls! it howls like hell!
Good article, and welcome Jaime
What true MMO gamer has never wanted to design their own MMO? It's too bad that $500,000 budget dev teams don't grow on trees, but I believe that passionate gamers have always been the best source of design. I've read that Blizzard only hires passionate gamers, and look at their success, every game they have ever released has been platinum.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I must say I like this new author, and I have mentioned many of the same sentiments myself.
Players always think their idea is correct, and if their idea is ignored or not implemented then it is a "slap in the face." It gets so old reading people's post who say, "You need to do this, it's easy and should only take a minute." That severe lack of knowledge is amazing, and to try to push forward your own ideas when your knowledge of how it works is so little it nothing more then irritating.
Everyone thinks they can design better (I would be lying if I haven't played many games over the years and thought "I would of done this and this differently) but it's one thing to have thoughts and opinions and offer them up. It is another when you try to force them and then throw a hissy fit when a dev hasn't responded to you personally in 2 minutes.
It's good to see other people realise how ridiculous that mentality is and hopefully one day we can reach a point where gamers openly discuss ideas and opinions in a mature way.
Who was the blogger and does anyone have link to his site. I'm curious about this "perfect raid dungeon".
It does (and doesn't) surprise me how many people think they could be a game dev. I think I know MMos pretty well at this stage, but I wouldn't dream I could make a good dev just because I have played the games for years. It's like driving, I have been driving for ten years since but it doesn't mean i could make a car (or have the first clue how
)
In university I was given a chemistry project to design study aids for first year students... the project quickly turned from a chemistry project into a psychology project as I had to study thousands of journals on design and how people interact with pictures, audio, video, and writing in order to work out a reasonable balance with highest efficiency.
Developing games is similar. You can know the content such as lore, class balance, skills, bosses, mechanics and so forth, but essential to the building of a good game is the knowledge of how the players will interact with it. If people truly want to become developers they need both artistic design skills and the psychology of how people interact with various mediums.
An interesting article. Thank you. I was curious about if the companies ever considered taking the most popular suggestions and listing them on a page like FAQs explaining why they're not being implimented (yet). It will help the players think that someone is listening to them, see things from the company's point of view, and maybe give them something to look forward to (for example if a player's suggestion is part of the next release). A player can have a great idea and wonder why no one is listening, never realizing the idea has one big flaw that makes it impractical or impossible to add to the game. If they were told why their idea was ignored, it may inspire them to come up with a fix for that flaw.
For example, is there an easy way to move items from one of a player's characters to another? Can the player easily transfer the suit of magic armor from the mage to the fighter? In the games I played, the only way to do that is through a third character which can be troublesome. But if the player can do it by him/herself, it would be a big quality of life improvement. But why haven't the companies done this yet? There has to be a reason. Players are already doing it between themselves so it's not a game balance issue. It would be nice to know why.
I never worked for a game company, but I have alot of work experience for an ASP... and I imagine the dynamics are pretty similar.....
One thing to remember is that, even though they may appear to us like it..."The Devs" aren't a single entity. In any given decent sized company "The Dev's" comprise about a dozen different sub-specialties that are very, very different from each other.... require different sorts of skill-sets....not to mention different personalties.... for some of those sub-sets it's very important to listen to their customers...others not so much... and some that should aren't always very good at it....and others that shouldn't are too good at it.
You've got people who are Designers who figure out what they wany the end Product to do.... but may or may not have any idea how to put the nuts and bolts of it together ( You have no idea how many times over the years I've used the line "That's a really cool idea...give me a staff of 5,000 Engineers and 20 years time....and I MAY figure out how to make it happen")
Then you've got Engineers who are responsible for figuring out how to build the systems that are neccesary for a certain design to work....but may or may not have any idea of what makes a usefull design. ( The converse to the above is the line "That's the smartest, cleverest and most efficient system I've seen.....that no one will ever use.", which I've also used in the past.)
That's just for starters...... and of course the most important thing to remember (especialy in larger companies)....is that you have no idea how many things make it into a product that have absolutely NOTHING to do with ANY Dev decision....or anyone who might even listen to customer Feedback. You have no idea how many (often boneheaded) things make it into a design because they were mandated from above.... usualy by some CEO or Marketing Exec who read it in a magizine article......or who paid some consultant 6 figures to tell them how to be more profitable (hint - stop paying enourmous amounts of money for people to give you the same advice that you could get from a fortune cookie at the $8 chinese buffett.)
You, REALLY, REALLY don't want to know over the years....how many times after reading some Executive mandate, I've turned to my team-mates and said "Didn't we see this on 'the Office' last night?".
So whenever your railing against some truely boneheaded move on some games forums and get nothing except maybe a canned response from the Community Manager....there is a good chance that alot of the Dev team are reading your posts and thinking in thier heads.... "Yeah, everyone here thinks so too....but we have kids and mortgages."
When i was still hopeful and had dreams after i finshed my degree, i was part of a hand held programming email group for the GP32. I got speaking with a games developer and he told me they shred every single document which even looks like it may be a game idea.
He basically pointed out that partly it was down to legalities, in that you out in the big world might think you have a truely unique idea the next best thing since sliced bread. However secretly the games company you have just forwarded your idea to has been working on that same idea for the past 3 years.
If a year later your game appears your going to want a peice of the pie and you would proclaim they "stole" the idea. So he says either they return the envelopes unopened OR they shred them on delivery. THat the only way a company wil ever look at a prospective idea or game plan is if you sub mit a portfolio of what you can do it might be level design a small demo some graphical models. But they will never accept a full games idea proposal.
For gamers who think they have a good idea the one route they can take is creative writing doing short stories or small peices of work.
The other thing is this if you think you can create somthing better then try out realm crafer its going to version 2 soon with updated engine. however i tried to create myself an mmo using realm crafter which i will say is pretty good in terms of tools and layout and by god its a long process.