Ihmotepp, I read your original post and just skipped to replying. I like to group when I have time, the problem being I don't have a lot of time to do Raids and such anymore due to RL commitments, so I have to do things solo a lot, which I don't mind, because I like both grouping and soloing.
I love your idea, making everything accessible but in a different way, and for about similar effort. The only thing I would add for the Dungeon part would be a way to save your progress in the solo route. Meaning I could do 30 mins to an hour and progress a little bit in the dungeon each day for the next few days. A lot of the people in my situation solo sometimes because they don't have the time to find a group and when we do find a group a majority of the time it is filled with people that either want to rush through things causing wipes or don't know how to play their class/character, or both.
I think that would be very easy to implement, and I'd have no problem with this being a feature.
In fact, you're doing this "solo" anyway, so why not make the solo route instanced? You could still chat with people in the game, and we could tailor the experience a lot better if it was instanced.
The Quest ccould be broken up into several different instances, and you have to do all of them, but either once you do one you can skip to the next, or sometimes they could be done out of order.
I was thinking along those lines almost exactly! If only we could get a developer to put these ideas into a game. I have been following swtor and it sounds like they may be doing something like this. But you can never tell until they actually release the game or give specific details which they havent done yet.
Usually what happens is that soloer gets lower exp at a faster rate and group gets higher exp at a slower rate, and there's an increased risk because when fighting harder mobs things are more likely to go wrong.
That's not really been my experience, although it probably varies from game to game. Considering just the time actually playing, I can make 2-3 levels per hour in a group or a single level a day playing as a solo, if that. Sometimes I just want to go up a level or two so I can use a new skill or weapon so I join a group and before I even notice it, I'm 5 levels higher. That's because I'm able to take on much, much higher level mobs with a group than I ever could do solo and I can do it faster and easier without wasting nearly as much time recovering between encounters, wasting healing, etc. In a group, you get hurt and people dog-pile healing on you before you even notice, really. By the time you get to the next encounter, you're back up to maximum.
I don't see there being any difference speed-wise, in fact most groups I've been with tend to *RUN* as fast as they can through dungeons, ignoring loot in favor of XP as fast as they can get it. That's one of the reasons I really don't like groups, I like to play slow and explore and loot everything.
What about making different MMOs for different people? Make heavily group forced MMOs where you can't even kill anything solo, then make solo friendly MMOs where solo is equal to grouping.
And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business. There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile. If there were, you'd have those games already. It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.
In responce to a post on page 13. I've also noticed that these tend to be groups that are so item light that they start looking for any fast way to gain back what they missed "RUNNING" through those dungeons, and side quests. I like that if I choose to solo or group that I choose to and that I'm not required, or forced to dependent on the game mechanics. As for the solo(less expirence) vs group(more expirence), I have not seen a difference with games like Guild Wars at all.
Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content. That should be reason enough to want to group up. Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs. Grouping provides a challenge. Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
I have to agree with Cephus here, and i apologize in advance to anyone i offend, but soloing can easily be by far much more difficult that grouping. Those who say otherwise have in my opinion obviously never tried to solo single target nukers wearing cloth in multiple pull only/fast re-spawn in close quarters situations, or healers in general where your hits are usually as hard as a 3 year old's (eventually mana runs out in crappy solo gear.) Whereas the most difficult thing to manage in a group situation with the same classes is either in the case of the nuker: make sure you are hitting what the tank is hitting and do as much damage as possible w/out stealing aggro, or in the case of the healer: keep everyone alive and buff/de-taunt wherever appropriate. Crowd control can have a bit more difficult time in a group compared to soloing (i suppose) if they are indeed doing their job properly, and this can be made more difficult of course by other group members not knowing their roles (the latter part is somewhat true in all cases tho.) Assuming you are in a good group tho, meaning people know their roles and have at least a small understanding of game mechanics, then most MMO's become cake (unless you are trying to accomplish something the group is just not level appropriate to do.) I do agree with Josher that you inevitably end up with better gear by grouping, but that only supports my claim that soloing is harder. Its a lot easier to kill mob x with all blues than all greens, and even easier still with a full group wearing all blues... There is however, a good deal of the time, a real challenge provided with the simple act of finding a good group in and of itself. Maybe that is the challenge he speaks of....
To the OP, I love most of your ideas through and through, however - as someone who solo's quite a large amount - I don't necessarily think 4 to 1 is the perfect time equation. I suggest rather have it vary based on the value of the reward. In other words, maybe only twice as long for rewards marginally better than the standard solo quests up to four or even five times longer for epic valued rewards.
Sorry but in any MMO with well thought our raids and mini raids, grouping is far more complex than soloing. True in many normal quests there is a lot of leeway, but thats because you are doing pre raid grouping.
Soloing can be difficult, don't get me wrong and if you are a support class it is certainly more than just get in there and bash them. But even in tough pre raid grouping quests in makes soloing seem simplistic and a bit boring really.
I played WoW, quit because the grouping game before you get to raiding sucks. It does not reward groupers, and it's easier and more efficient to just solo to the level cap.
What you're talking about is penalizing the group for grouping.
I get in a group. We need to decide our strategy. Who's going to pull, tank, etc., or who's going to use what skills in a skill based game. We need to decide where we can go for ourt group size. Can we do Giant Bears, or do we need one more player for that? Should we do the boots of speed quest, or nobody needs that quest?
So you're not grouping because you want to play with people. You're grouping due to a MIN/MAX formula to lvl as quickly as possible only to bitch about how sucky the entire journey was. OOOoooh. Fun.
Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content. That should be reason enough to want to group up. Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs. Grouping provides a challenge. Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)
You CAN group if you want to.
But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.
Well, I don't really want to group if you're going to gimp me.
Oh, I guess you don't REALLY want to group do you? I guess you REALLY just want to min max dont' you?
Uh, no, I REALLY want to group.
Ok, you CAN group. But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.
Well, if you're going to gimp me I dont' want to group. I don't like being gimped.
Well, then I guess you dont' REALLY want to group do you? If you REALLY liked to group, you wouldn't mind being gimped would you?
Uh, yes, I mind being gimped. How about I CAN group, and I'm not gimped?
Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content. That should be reason enough to want to group up. Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs. Grouping provides a challenge. Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else.
Hmmm, which one is harder?
Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped.
Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content. That should be reason enough to want to group up. Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs. Grouping provides a challenge. Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
I don't know which MMOs you're playing Cephus, but ussually when you do a dungeon that requires a group, you have a much higher chance of wiping. Have you ever actually been in a dungeon on a MMO before=) That was a joke I hope? I'm not talking hypotheticals here, where in the perfect MMO, soloing can be harder. In WOW and basically every MMO released int he past 10 years, GROUP content is more difficult than solo content. If your'e trying to tell me its easier to kill even con mobs alone compared to a eilte/hard mobs and bosses that can kill everyone in the group in a few seconds, I really don't know what to tell you. I really don't know which MMOs you've played but you obviously havn't done any dungeons in any MMO released in the past 5 or 6 years to say soloing is tougher=) Maybe you're stuck back in 1998 in EQ where the game wasn't designed for solo play yet. Are you living in todays worlds or 10 years ago?
By your logic, shooting hoops by yourself is tougher than actually playing a game;) Tossing a football back and forth is tougher than being in the super bowl? Is that what you're saying because thats what you just said? As a quarterback, all you have to worry about is throwing the ball. Just one little role. Easy. Simple. Being on the offensive line? SIMPLE!!! You just stand there and block the guy in front of you. So easy., hehe
To me, forced grouping means I can't advance past this point or get X without grouping. If I have another option, even if it takes 4-10x as long, it's still an option.
Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else. Hmmm, which one is harder? Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped. Hmmmm, which one is harder?
Given the same assumptions about both, working by yourself. Funny how you assume that soloers are only going to take on mobs they know they can beat, but groups have to HOPE that they can beat their mobs. The group dynamics in most games are so cut and dried, anyone who has managed to get above a certain level obviously knows their role and can perform it well enough to get the job done. I can't think of too many groups I've been in where the healers didn't know how to heal, the tanks didn't know how to tank and the DDs didn't know how to deal damage. It's not exactly rocket science.
However, a single character is much more likely to die in any given encounter than an entire group. When you are the only one there and have to carry the load and act as *EVERY* part of a group by yourself, you have a much higher liklihood of getting yourself killed.
I can't say I've seen an entire group wipe in a long, long, long time. Individuals have died, certainly, mostly because they did something stupid, but everyone in the group, down to the last man? Nope. If they did, then probably the whole group was being stupid.
And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business. There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile. If there were, you'd have those games already. It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.
The 4th most successful MMO in the market was group-based. The game was also very hardcore, so it's not written in stone that a group-based MMO couldn't make as much profit as the solo-based ones until some company makes a casual grouping game as well. It's actually in development right now, so we'll see which prediction will come true.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business. There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile. If there were, you'd have those games already. It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.
The 4th most successful MMO in the market was group-based. The game was also very hardcore, so it's not written in stone that a group-based MMO couldn't make as much profit as the solo-based ones until some company makes a casual grouping game as well. It's actually in development right now, so we'll see which prediction will come true.
Fine by me, but until it's actually out and in the marketplace and being successful, you still have no argument. I find it funny that people keep claiming that a game trailing a distant fourth somehow proves that MMOs are all about grouping, which is a claim that appears constantly in threads like these.
Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else. Hmmm, which one is harder? Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped. Hmmmm, which one is harder?
Given the same assumptions about both, working by yourself. Funny how you assume that soloers are only going to take on mobs they know they can beat, but groups have to HOPE that they can beat their mobs. The group dynamics in most games are so cut and dried, anyone who has managed to get above a certain level obviously knows their role and can perform it well enough to get the job done. I can't think of too many groups I've been in where the healers didn't know how to heal, the tanks didn't know how to tank and the DDs didn't know how to deal damage. It's not exactly rocket science.
However, a single character is much more likely to die in any given encounter than an entire group. When you are the only one there and have to carry the load and act as *EVERY* part of a group by yourself, you have a much higher liklihood of getting yourself killed.
I can't say I've seen an entire group wipe in a long, long, long time. Individuals have died, certainly, mostly because they did something stupid, but everyone in the group, down to the last man? Nope. If they did, then probably the whole group was being stupid.
Maybe that explains your arguments.
It's easy for a party to wipe if they are fighting a Mob that requires everyone to do everything exactly right, and without one person in the party they can't handle the mob. One person goes link dead, that's it, party wipe. So you don't have to worry about just you going LD, but everyone in your party.
mmoRPGs are based on stats.
You should never lose solo at any level to any mob more than once.
Either you have the stats to beat the mob at your level with your gear, or the mob has the stats to beat you.
Once you determine that, it's always win or always lose, the end.
I mean sure, you could find a mob that is so evenly matched to your level, skills, gear that it's 50/50 depending on the dice rolls for damage.
But if that's the case, nothing you are doing as a player is determining the outcome. You don't win because you're a really bad ass solo player, you don't lose because you suck. You win because you got some good rolls, or lose because you got some bad rolls.
With grouping, it depends team work.
I find teamwork is harder than not having to cooperate with others.
If you think team work is easier, then you wouldn't complain about forced grouping. It would be really easy to group, really easy to decide what to do, and you'd never wipe because it was so easy.
Just doesn't make sense that solo would be harder than group play, since solo play is the easiest way you can play an RPG. Dude, it's not your badass solo skills that determine the outcome of combat in an RPG. It's the stats.
It's easy for a party to wipe if they are fighting a Mob that requires everyone to do everything exactly right, and without one person in the party they can't handle the mob. One person goes link dead, that's it, party wipe. So you don't have to worry about just you going LD, but everyone in your party. Not necessarily true. If both are fighting a mob on the edge of their abilities then both can wipe. In a group, if one member goes link-dead, it's possible, although not guaranteed, that the party will wipe. For a solo, if they go link-dead, it's an absolute guarantee they die as well. Stop acting like you've got worse possibilities. mmoRPGs are based on stats. And also chance. Every attack roll done by the computer is more or less random. If you get some really good rolls, you can kill an inordinately powerful mob. If you get some really bad rolls, a relatively weak mob can kill you. You should never lose solo at any level to any mob more than once. Either you have the stats to beat the mob at your level with your gear, or the mob has the stats to beat you. Once you determine that, it's always win or always lose, the end. That's the same for everyone then, group or no. It's not exactly accurate, as I showed above, but it's reasonable. With grouping, it depends team work. And picking the right targets. I don't care how good your teamwork is, if you pick a target that's too difficult, you lose, period. But the same thing is true of *ALL* mob encounters. I find teamwork is harder than not having to cooperate with others. If you think team work is easier, then you wouldn't complain about forced grouping. It would be really easy to group, really easy to decide what to do, and you'd never wipe because it was so easy. I think the outcome is easier and so long as everyone understands their roles, dealing with other people is usually pointless because most groups don't bother communicating. They kill, move on, kill, move on, they rarely if ever talk beyond that. Just doesn't make sense that solo would be harder than group play, since solo play is the easiest way you can play an RPG. Dude, it's not your badass solo skills that determine the outcome of combat in an RPG. It's the stats. Solo has harder risks, all other things being equal because you have no one else to rely on. In a group setting, everyone can specialize because they have someone else watching out for them. To solo, you have to be a jack-of-all-trades, you're personally responsible for tanking, healing and dealing damage on your own.
If a group mob takes an even con mobs - they may lose or die but each person in the group gets to count on somoene else do help them pull off a successfull fight (assuming the others know their job).
If a soloer takes an even con mob - they may lose or die by their dice rolls, stats or actions alone. There is no one else to pull them out of the fire.
If a group takes on red+ mobs - once again they can depend on others (assuming the others know their jobs). The healers will heal them, tanks will protect them...
If a soloer takes on a red+mob - they have no one to depend on but themselves. They better have super gear (if gear based) or really know their character or some some good strategy/kiting skills.
However soloing is also more attractive becasue people would rather depend on themselves than others. It's just plain annoying having to depend on other people in order to be successfull in a game. However each individual encounter, if taking the same difficulty con, is harder for the soloer.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
We were not comparing groups and solo versus even con mobs, the discussion got derailed a bit. In the end game raid material designers do take into account that their dungeon is going to face a group. The idea that grouping is somehow easier than soloing because there are more of you falls down. Not just raids, many quests are designed to test a group; you must perform optimally to succeed.
Nearly everything I do when I solo, I do in a group. But in a group I use more powers, move around more and have to think on different levels, and that’s just as a melee. That’s why grouping is more complex.
Are you going to tell me that a Healer has a easier time in a group watching every ones health bars than they do just watching their own when soloing? For that matter any support class could be healing, removing debuffs, switching between healing and damage, mezzing, rooting etc etc. And as it is a raid or tough quest you tend to be doing this with more mobs than in a solo quest.
So please, please stop trying to pretend soloing is some how harder. Or I we will all set our MMO’s support classes on you.
I think it strikes a good balance. I don't mind incentives to group, I just don't want to be forced to group. If group play levels you faster, that seems realistic and does make up for the time taken to get a group together in the first place. And if I did feel like grouping on a given day, I would probably be able to find a group easier.
It sounds to me that some of you are saying group play in raids is only more difficult because you have a larger group to watch over. But that's not entirely true. There's the tactics involved in which MOBs to take out first, etc. All very exciting for some of you. This requires an in depth knowledge of the game mechanics, MOB stats and abilities, etc. Few players have the kind of time it requires for all that. Thus the "elite", the leaders. That's all good for those of you who like it. But in the end, that same raid is there to do again, and again. It's all got that feeling or predetermined, of scripted, content. And it's not like it's hard. If you are that kind of powergamer, have the time and the inclination, it's not hard. It's dominoes, set them up right and they all fall over. But whatever floats yer boat.
Are you going to tell me that a Healer has a easier time in a group watching every ones health bars than they do just watching their own when soloing? For that matter any support class could be healing, removing debuffs, switching between healing and damage, mezzing, rooting etc etc. And as it is a raid or tough quest you tend to be doing this with more mobs than in a solo quest.
So please, please stop trying to pretend soloing is some how harder. Or I we will all set our MMO’s support classes on you.
Absolutely a healer has a much easier time in a group than solo, in a group they just stay in the back, rarely have to worry about taking any personal damage and just throw healing at everyone else. Healers are typically very poor damage dealers and are even worse than most support classes at soloing because of it.
So please, please stop trying to pretend that grouping is somehow harder. Reality says otherwise.
In summary, the result of the OP's proposition is already effectively the case in nearly every MMO I've played. I've played EQ, EQII, SWG, CoX, Eve, WoW, and LOTRO, just off the top of my head, and most of them offer huge incentives for grouping up.
Lotro and CoX, to name a couple, give XP bonuses to groups based on the size of said group. CoX increases the number/difficulty of mobs in their missions based on the size of the team, which then increases the XP benefit that much more. A group of 6 could easily wipe out 4 mobs in the time a solo player takes out 1, and gets bonus XP on top of it. There's your 4x right there.
If that isn't enough incentive to group up, I don't know what is. And I can say, CoX has been by far the easiest MMO to find a PUG for. But people(including myself) still solo often.
On the Questing heading... not a bad idea, but how would this work when you rolled for loot? Would that mean that 4 people would each get one bear skin for each Ogre? If so, why would a 6 person group do that when they could each solo bears?
You know what I would do? Wait to do the quest until I was powerful enough take on Ogres on my own. Next quest, please.
LOTRO creates a similar effect by using elite mobs, which take longer to kill, and longer to recover from fighting. 1 equal level can be a significant challenge solo, 2 elites would likely mean the end of a soloist, while a party of 6 could take 'em down in about 15 seconds. Many of their zones are designed with this in mind as well. Southeast of Esteldin comes to mind, where there are a number of ways to approach the elite orc encampments. Some, solo friendly, some, not so much but tend to drop more faction items.
The Dungeon heading: Far as making a mission take 4x longer to complete solo, from a set design/route standpoint, I don't see how you do that without having to double up on dev resources and time. More time required to spend on the same content means less content overall.
And, what would I, a frequent soloer do? I'd skip that quest, do 4 normal length solo quests and get more XP for my time. Probably more loot, too.
As a person that enjoys grouping, but in most cases prefers to go it solo, I just wouldn't do any content that penalizes me for wanting to do it solo. Doing it solo is its own disadvantage, already. The add'l perks for grouping provided by the above mentioned games should be more than enough. And I'm perfectly satisfied with the notion that in order to get the best loot, I'm gonna hafta group up from time to time (particularly if it's a quest reward and not a random drop). So long as the game is playable without that loot.
I dare say that with any MMO I've played, if I grouped more often, I'd have advanced much further than I have going it solo. That's a price I'm willing to pay to, on a whim, veer off to the nearest city and get some crafting done. Or park for a bit mid-quest and let the dog out or throw a burger on the Foreman grill. That's a freedom I'll only give up for special game events; NOT a cave full of elites or for loot that does 1.2 more dps.
Yes, I'm cool with that. To me, forced grouping means I can't advance past this point or get X without grouping. If I have another option, even if it takes 4-10x as long, it's still an option.
I'd have no part of a game that would force me to group to advance. Not so much because I refuse to group(I can even find ways to enjoy PUG's), but because that indicates lack of content.
I should always be able to move on, lvl up, and take it on later with a small group or solo.
the idea is NOT that the group can kill solo mobs very fast, but that the group can take on harder mobs that require team work.
They would not be able to do this faster than a solo player can kill solo mobs. A group killing solo mobs would not make xp faster than if they all just split up and killed mobs solo. They would make the bonus by killing mobs they could not kill solo, sort of the whole point in grouping.
Solo mobs, for example, con green. You kill a green mob, you get 10 xp points. You get in a group of 5, you kill a green mob, you all get 2 points each, but you can kill them faster, so it's the same. OR, they go grey, and you get ZERO points now for killing those mobs. INstead, you move on to mobs that were RED or PURPLE when you were solo. The red or purple mobs give huge bonuses, but you can't kill them solo. That's the idea, not we form a group and mow through solo content, that would be boring.
Better LFG mechanics don't help with the party wipes, the healer has to check on the baby, the Tank goes link dead, a party member leaves and has to be replaced, somone needs to repair armor, you discuss splitting loot, what quest to do, waiting on someone to travel to the party, etc., etc.
This is not the case at all in any game I've played.
Unless I end up in a group that wipes about once every half hour or so, I RIP through XP. I mentioned CoX and Lotro in my last post because they are the ones I've played most recently.
If there's a disincentive to grouping, at least in those two games, it's NOT XP advancement OR increased difficulty. Groups have some unique problems, like an increased liklihood of accidental aggro or your healer playing on a Pentium 2 over dialup. But that again speaks to the competence of the group, and not the mechanics/payoff of group play.
The other game I can think of with XP bonuses was SWG pre-cu. You got bonus XP based on the number in your group, and you could rip through (higher paying) contracts faster than you could ever consider doing solo. All 3 of these games almost felt like cheat mode in a group compared to soloing.
Comments
I think that would be very easy to implement, and I'd have no problem with this being a feature.
In fact, you're doing this "solo" anyway, so why not make the solo route instanced? You could still chat with people in the game, and we could tailor the experience a lot better if it was instanced.
The Quest ccould be broken up into several different instances, and you have to do all of them, but either once you do one you can skip to the next, or sometimes they could be done out of order.
I was thinking along those lines almost exactly! If only we could get a developer to put these ideas into a game. I have been following swtor and it sounds like they may be doing something like this. But you can never tell until they actually release the game or give specific details which they havent done yet.
That's not really been my experience, although it probably varies from game to game. Considering just the time actually playing, I can make 2-3 levels per hour in a group or a single level a day playing as a solo, if that. Sometimes I just want to go up a level or two so I can use a new skill or weapon so I join a group and before I even notice it, I'm 5 levels higher. That's because I'm able to take on much, much higher level mobs with a group than I ever could do solo and I can do it faster and easier without wasting nearly as much time recovering between encounters, wasting healing, etc. In a group, you get hurt and people dog-pile healing on you before you even notice, really. By the time you get to the next encounter, you're back up to maximum.
I don't see there being any difference speed-wise, in fact most groups I've been with tend to *RUN* as fast as they can through dungeons, ignoring loot in favor of XP as fast as they can get it. That's one of the reasons I really don't like groups, I like to play slow and explore and loot everything.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
And that's fine, but those MMOs still have to make money and therefore, have to cater to a large enough audience willing to pay a monthly fee so they can stay in business. There just aren't enough group-heavy players out there who want to play a game and can pay them sufficiently to make it worthwhile. If there were, you'd have those games already. It's not that it's an untapped market, it's that it's an insufficient market.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In responce to a post on page 13. I've also noticed that these tend to be groups that are so item light that they start looking for any fast way to gain back what they missed "RUNNING" through those dungeons, and side quests. I like that if I choose to solo or group that I choose to and that I'm not required, or forced to dependent on the game mechanics. As for the solo(less expirence) vs group(more expirence), I have not seen a difference with games like Guild Wars at all.
Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
I have to agree with Cephus here, and i apologize in advance to anyone i offend, but soloing can easily be by far much more difficult that grouping. Those who say otherwise have in my opinion obviously never tried to solo single target nukers wearing cloth in multiple pull only/fast re-spawn in close quarters situations, or healers in general where your hits are usually as hard as a 3 year old's (eventually mana runs out in crappy solo gear.) Whereas the most difficult thing to manage in a group situation with the same classes is either in the case of the nuker: make sure you are hitting what the tank is hitting and do as much damage as possible w/out stealing aggro, or in the case of the healer: keep everyone alive and buff/de-taunt wherever appropriate. Crowd control can have a bit more difficult time in a group compared to soloing (i suppose) if they are indeed doing their job properly, and this can be made more difficult of course by other group members not knowing their roles (the latter part is somewhat true in all cases tho.) Assuming you are in a good group tho, meaning people know their roles and have at least a small understanding of game mechanics, then most MMO's become cake (unless you are trying to accomplish something the group is just not level appropriate to do.) I do agree with Josher that you inevitably end up with better gear by grouping, but that only supports my claim that soloing is harder. Its a lot easier to kill mob x with all blues than all greens, and even easier still with a full group wearing all blues... There is however, a good deal of the time, a real challenge provided with the simple act of finding a good group in and of itself. Maybe that is the challenge he speaks of....
To the OP, I love most of your ideas through and through, however - as someone who solo's quite a large amount - I don't necessarily think 4 to 1 is the perfect time equation. I suggest rather have it vary based on the value of the reward. In other words, maybe only twice as long for rewards marginally better than the standard solo quests up to four or even five times longer for epic valued rewards.
Sorry but in any MMO with well thought our raids and mini raids, grouping is far more complex than soloing. True in many normal quests there is a lot of leeway, but thats because you are doing pre raid grouping.
Soloing can be difficult, don't get me wrong and if you are a support class it is certainly more than just get in there and bash them. But even in tough pre raid grouping quests in makes soloing seem simplistic and a bit boring really.
Um, no.
I played WoW, quit because the grouping game before you get to raiding sucks. It does not reward groupers, and it's easier and more efficient to just solo to the level cap.
What you're talking about is penalizing the group for grouping.
I get in a group. We need to decide our strategy. Who's going to pull, tank, etc., or who's going to use what skills in a skill based game. We need to decide where we can go for ourt group size. Can we do Giant Bears, or do we need one more player for that? Should we do the boots of speed quest, or nobody needs that quest?
So you're not grouping because you want to play with people. You're grouping due to a MIN/MAX formula to lvl as quickly as possible only to bitch about how sucky the entire journey was. OOOoooh. Fun.
Better gear, MUCH, MUCH better content. That should be reason enough to want to group up. Soloing is easy and mindless in most MMOs. Grouping provides a challenge. Do you want to be challenged or do you want to just watch numbers grow, because you can do that on a calculator and not pay a monthly fee=)
You CAN group if you want to.
But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.
Well, I don't really want to group if you're going to gimp me.
Oh, I guess you don't REALLY want to group do you? I guess you REALLY just want to min max dont' you?
Uh, no, I REALLY want to group.
Ok, you CAN group. But if you do, I'm going to gimp you.
Well, if you're going to gimp me I dont' want to group. I don't like being gimped.
Well, then I guess you dont' REALLY want to group do you? If you REALLY liked to group, you wouldn't mind being gimped would you?
Uh, yes, I mind being gimped. How about I CAN group, and I'm not gimped?
NO!!!!!! That would be FORCED GROUPING!!! Wahhhh!
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
Working with other people, working by yourself and not having to coordinate, cooperate, or compromise with anyone else.
Hmmm, which one is harder?
Only taking on mobs you know you can beat solo, or being in a group and HOPING everyone does their job so you don't get the entire party wiped.
Hmmmm, which one is harder?
Exactly where is this "challenge" you speak of? As part of a group, you have a built-in support system no matter what class you're playing. Tanks rarely have to worry about healing, they have a dedicated healer pouring recovery on them constantly. Healers never have to worry about protection, they have those elements surrounding them as well. Usually the only time I get bored in an MMO is when I'm part of a group because your role is so limited and well-defined. Run to target, perform pre-defined role, collect XP, run to next target. Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's a challenge?
I don't know which MMOs you're playing Cephus, but ussually when you do a dungeon that requires a group, you have a much higher chance of wiping. Have you ever actually been in a dungeon on a MMO before=) That was a joke I hope? I'm not talking hypotheticals here, where in the perfect MMO, soloing can be harder. In WOW and basically every MMO released int he past 10 years, GROUP content is more difficult than solo content. If your'e trying to tell me its easier to kill even con mobs alone compared to a eilte/hard mobs and bosses that can kill everyone in the group in a few seconds, I really don't know what to tell you. I really don't know which MMOs you've played but you obviously havn't done any dungeons in any MMO released in the past 5 or 6 years to say soloing is tougher=) Maybe you're stuck back in 1998 in EQ where the game wasn't designed for solo play yet. Are you living in todays worlds or 10 years ago?
By your logic, shooting hoops by yourself is tougher than actually playing a game;) Tossing a football back and forth is tougher than being in the super bowl? Is that what you're saying because thats what you just said? As a quarterback, all you have to worry about is throwing the ball. Just one little role. Easy. Simple. Being on the offensive line? SIMPLE!!! You just stand there and block the guy in front of you. So easy., hehe
Yes, I'm cool with that.
To me, forced grouping means I can't advance past this point or get X without grouping. If I have another option, even if it takes 4-10x as long, it's still an option.
Given the same assumptions about both, working by yourself. Funny how you assume that soloers are only going to take on mobs they know they can beat, but groups have to HOPE that they can beat their mobs. The group dynamics in most games are so cut and dried, anyone who has managed to get above a certain level obviously knows their role and can perform it well enough to get the job done. I can't think of too many groups I've been in where the healers didn't know how to heal, the tanks didn't know how to tank and the DDs didn't know how to deal damage. It's not exactly rocket science.
However, a single character is much more likely to die in any given encounter than an entire group. When you are the only one there and have to carry the load and act as *EVERY* part of a group by yourself, you have a much higher liklihood of getting yourself killed.
I can't say I've seen an entire group wipe in a long, long, long time. Individuals have died, certainly, mostly because they did something stupid, but everyone in the group, down to the last man? Nope. If they did, then probably the whole group was being stupid.
Maybe that explains your arguments.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Um, all 7 of your previous genres are also online games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The 4th most successful MMO in the market was group-based. The game was also very hardcore, so it's not written in stone that a group-based MMO couldn't make as much profit as the solo-based ones until some company makes a casual grouping game as well. It's actually in development right now, so we'll see which prediction will come true.
The 4th most successful MMO in the market was group-based. The game was also very hardcore, so it's not written in stone that a group-based MMO couldn't make as much profit as the solo-based ones until some company makes a casual grouping game as well. It's actually in development right now, so we'll see which prediction will come true.
Fine by me, but until it's actually out and in the marketplace and being successful, you still have no argument. I find it funny that people keep claiming that a game trailing a distant fourth somehow proves that MMOs are all about grouping, which is a claim that appears constantly in threads like these.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Given the same assumptions about both, working by yourself. Funny how you assume that soloers are only going to take on mobs they know they can beat, but groups have to HOPE that they can beat their mobs. The group dynamics in most games are so cut and dried, anyone who has managed to get above a certain level obviously knows their role and can perform it well enough to get the job done. I can't think of too many groups I've been in where the healers didn't know how to heal, the tanks didn't know how to tank and the DDs didn't know how to deal damage. It's not exactly rocket science.
However, a single character is much more likely to die in any given encounter than an entire group. When you are the only one there and have to carry the load and act as *EVERY* part of a group by yourself, you have a much higher liklihood of getting yourself killed.
I can't say I've seen an entire group wipe in a long, long, long time. Individuals have died, certainly, mostly because they did something stupid, but everyone in the group, down to the last man? Nope. If they did, then probably the whole group was being stupid.
Maybe that explains your arguments.
It's easy for a party to wipe if they are fighting a Mob that requires everyone to do everything exactly right, and without one person in the party they can't handle the mob. One person goes link dead, that's it, party wipe. So you don't have to worry about just you going LD, but everyone in your party.
mmoRPGs are based on stats.
You should never lose solo at any level to any mob more than once.
Either you have the stats to beat the mob at your level with your gear, or the mob has the stats to beat you.
Once you determine that, it's always win or always lose, the end.
I mean sure, you could find a mob that is so evenly matched to your level, skills, gear that it's 50/50 depending on the dice rolls for damage.
But if that's the case, nothing you are doing as a player is determining the outcome. You don't win because you're a really bad ass solo player, you don't lose because you suck. You win because you got some good rolls, or lose because you got some bad rolls.
With grouping, it depends team work.
I find teamwork is harder than not having to cooperate with others.
If you think team work is easier, then you wouldn't complain about forced grouping. It would be really easy to group, really easy to decide what to do, and you'd never wipe because it was so easy.
Just doesn't make sense that solo would be harder than group play, since solo play is the easiest way you can play an RPG. Dude, it's not your badass solo skills that determine the outcome of combat in an RPG. It's the stats.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I agree with Cephus404, soloing is harder.
If a group mob takes an even con mobs - they may lose or die but each person in the group gets to count on somoene else do help them pull off a successfull fight (assuming the others know their job).
If a soloer takes an even con mob - they may lose or die by their dice rolls, stats or actions alone. There is no one else to pull them out of the fire.
If a group takes on red+ mobs - once again they can depend on others (assuming the others know their jobs). The healers will heal them, tanks will protect them...
If a soloer takes on a red+mob - they have no one to depend on but themselves. They better have super gear (if gear based) or really know their character or some some good strategy/kiting skills.
However soloing is also more attractive becasue people would rather depend on themselves than others. It's just plain annoying having to depend on other people in order to be successfull in a game. However each individual encounter, if taking the same difficulty con, is harder for the soloer.
Venge Sunsoar
We were not comparing groups and solo versus even con mobs, the discussion got derailed a bit. In the end game raid material designers do take into account that their dungeon is going to face a group. The idea that grouping is somehow easier than soloing because there are more of you falls down. Not just raids, many quests are designed to test a group; you must perform optimally to succeed.
Nearly everything I do when I solo, I do in a group. But in a group I use more powers, move around more and have to think on different levels, and that’s just as a melee. That’s why grouping is more complex.
Are you going to tell me that a Healer has a easier time in a group watching every ones health bars than they do just watching their own when soloing? For that matter any support class could be healing, removing debuffs, switching between healing and damage, mezzing, rooting etc etc. And as it is a raid or tough quest you tend to be doing this with more mobs than in a solo quest.
So please, please stop trying to pretend soloing is some how harder. Or I we will all set our MMO’s support classes on you.
I think it strikes a good balance. I don't mind incentives to group, I just don't want to be forced to group. If group play levels you faster, that seems realistic and does make up for the time taken to get a group together in the first place. And if I did feel like grouping on a given day, I would probably be able to find a group easier.
It sounds to me that some of you are saying group play in raids is only more difficult because you have a larger group to watch over. But that's not entirely true. There's the tactics involved in which MOBs to take out first, etc. All very exciting for some of you. This requires an in depth knowledge of the game mechanics, MOB stats and abilities, etc. Few players have the kind of time it requires for all that. Thus the "elite", the leaders. That's all good for those of you who like it. But in the end, that same raid is there to do again, and again. It's all got that feeling or predetermined, of scripted, content. And it's not like it's hard. If you are that kind of powergamer, have the time and the inclination, it's not hard. It's dominoes, set them up right and they all fall over. But whatever floats yer boat.
Once upon a time....
Absolutely a healer has a much easier time in a group than solo, in a group they just stay in the back, rarely have to worry about taking any personal damage and just throw healing at everyone else. Healers are typically very poor damage dealers and are even worse than most support classes at soloing because of it.
So please, please stop trying to pretend that grouping is somehow harder. Reality says otherwise.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Aw.. I thought this was a thread on what I wanted to be for Halloween.
I voted for Charlie Brown, and here's why:
In summary, the result of the OP's proposition is already effectively the case in nearly every MMO I've played. I've played EQ, EQII, SWG, CoX, Eve, WoW, and LOTRO, just off the top of my head, and most of them offer huge incentives for grouping up.
Lotro and CoX, to name a couple, give XP bonuses to groups based on the size of said group. CoX increases the number/difficulty of mobs in their missions based on the size of the team, which then increases the XP benefit that much more. A group of 6 could easily wipe out 4 mobs in the time a solo player takes out 1, and gets bonus XP on top of it. There's your 4x right there.
If that isn't enough incentive to group up, I don't know what is. And I can say, CoX has been by far the easiest MMO to find a PUG for. But people(including myself) still solo often.
On the Questing heading... not a bad idea, but how would this work when you rolled for loot? Would that mean that 4 people would each get one bear skin for each Ogre? If so, why would a 6 person group do that when they could each solo bears?
You know what I would do? Wait to do the quest until I was powerful enough take on Ogres on my own. Next quest, please.
LOTRO creates a similar effect by using elite mobs, which take longer to kill, and longer to recover from fighting. 1 equal level can be a significant challenge solo, 2 elites would likely mean the end of a soloist, while a party of 6 could take 'em down in about 15 seconds. Many of their zones are designed with this in mind as well. Southeast of Esteldin comes to mind, where there are a number of ways to approach the elite orc encampments. Some, solo friendly, some, not so much but tend to drop more faction items.
The Dungeon heading: Far as making a mission take 4x longer to complete solo, from a set design/route standpoint, I don't see how you do that without having to double up on dev resources and time. More time required to spend on the same content means less content overall.
And, what would I, a frequent soloer do? I'd skip that quest, do 4 normal length solo quests and get more XP for my time. Probably more loot, too.
As a person that enjoys grouping, but in most cases prefers to go it solo, I just wouldn't do any content that penalizes me for wanting to do it solo. Doing it solo is its own disadvantage, already. The add'l perks for grouping provided by the above mentioned games should be more than enough. And I'm perfectly satisfied with the notion that in order to get the best loot, I'm gonna hafta group up from time to time (particularly if it's a quest reward and not a random drop). So long as the game is playable without that loot.
I dare say that with any MMO I've played, if I grouped more often, I'd have advanced much further than I have going it solo. That's a price I'm willing to pay to, on a whim, veer off to the nearest city and get some crafting done. Or park for a bit mid-quest and let the dog out or throw a burger on the Foreman grill. That's a freedom I'll only give up for special game events; NOT a cave full of elites or for loot that does 1.2 more dps.
I'd have no part of a game that would force me to group to advance. Not so much because I refuse to group(I can even find ways to enjoy PUG's), but because that indicates lack of content.
I should always be able to move on, lvl up, and take it on later with a small group or solo.
This is not the case at all in any game I've played.
Unless I end up in a group that wipes about once every half hour or so, I RIP through XP. I mentioned CoX and Lotro in my last post because they are the ones I've played most recently.
If there's a disincentive to grouping, at least in those two games, it's NOT XP advancement OR increased difficulty. Groups have some unique problems, like an increased liklihood of accidental aggro or your healer playing on a Pentium 2 over dialup. But that again speaks to the competence of the group, and not the mechanics/payoff of group play.
The other game I can think of with XP bonuses was SWG pre-cu. You got bonus XP based on the number in your group, and you could rip through (higher paying) contracts faster than you could ever consider doing solo. All 3 of these games almost felt like cheat mode in a group compared to soloing.