What the MMORPG genre needs are developers who have never made a MMORPG and don't listen to the old school community. At all.
5-6 years ago if you had asked the all-wise, old-school MMORPG players who were the Gurus of MMORPG design you'd be given names like Brad McQuaid (Everquest), Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot), Gauge Godar (Anarchy Online) and of course, RIchard 'Space Cadet' Garriott (Ultima).
These were the people who those first gen MMORPG players would have picked to be the brilliant genuises that would make the next generation of MMORPGs. Since then *ALL* of those people have have been fired or left their companies after the release of their attempts at a modern MMORPG.
People can try to bring up various different reasons for their collective failures from bad management skills to deciding they want to play astronaut or whatever. But there is one over-arching, fundamental reason - rhe one thing they ALL had in common - they were simply all bad game designers.
For a decade MMORPGs were a niche market that failed to attract the numbers of every other video game genre like FPS, RTS, 4X, single player RPGs etc. While other games were selling millions, MMORPGs drew in fractions of that. You had a hardcore community of players who paid for games no one else was willing to play. Now those same developers were simply unable to produce games that could truly compete in the modern online market.
The article is completely correct. The community whines for innovation but when a game tries to break away from the tedious, timesink, garbage mechanics of old MMORPGs that they love so much, they whine even louder.
MMORPGs are evolving and changing. They will be nothing like UO and EQ or any other previous MMORPG.
And that is not reason to whine, but a reason to be thankful.
Ive been a mmo player now for ... well must be 20 years and there are alot of games that say they are the "next evolution" in gaming but sadly are all the same.
sure we want some things to stay the same Im prety happy with the controls I commonly use in LOTRO where i can cross control between my mouse and keyboard but it seems that every game that comes out is built in some form of isolation bubble and makes the same mistakes or reinvents the wheel time and time again.
lets take lord of the rings online for example.. nice base controls i my opinion but they have yet to master resizeable windows in the UI most anoying
I also go more globaly the auction houses are WRECKING MMOS a single auction sure might be easy for the devs but its a crippling feature for games as price fixing and gold farming are assured wanna buy a new pair of pants for your low level alt? better be ready to plop down 2 gold and the only way to do this if yor hot a high level raider id visa or mastercard. and if you post some ore for a low price someone wiill buy it and re sell it for their own higher price and these AH have no price historys built in so they cant see that ore had been purchassed for 1/10 what it is priced at now (if your gonna have a AH you need to have statistics)
what they need is to diversify the merchants have every town have a designated merchant and each player can post say 5-6 items (they can buy more slots) this means that each town has a bit of isolation it is more difficult to price fix I also say let guilds of a certain size also have their own vender
what I am saying is that some things we want to remain the same and some things we want more innovation
lets take the AI BRAIN as far as im concerned there still using the same AI brain they used back in everquest this is like using model-T wheels on a porche in areas such as this its obvious that developers are coasting similar areas are in questing and generic mob spawn generators. Why must you come into a game and get the "kill 10 spiders" from a vending machine NPC and then you go out and kill the spiders only to have them respawn 3 minutes later there are better ways there are many tricks that can be employed such as overlaping, competing spawns imbeded quests
I really hate upper end games because there all the same.. they are reduced to PVP or raiding and the inevidable "PIT-O-MOBS" devs seem to think that "chalanging" means adding more hitpoints to the proverbial rat instead of making the rat smarter instances put me to sleep.
lets take AGE OF CONAN what I expected was a more raw, rugged immersive game play,, what I got was more of the same WOW like game play just with exceedingly high graphics requirements WOW to me is the bench test for this specific form of simplistic, arcade like brainless game play and untill game makers get out of the box (as far as content goes) they are allways going to be measured up against the BOSS of this type of game build.
there are only so many ways you can cook oatmeal if you dont want it compared to quaker oatmeal than cook up some eggs and toast.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
Good point. I didnt notice that abiut most of those games, but looking at it now I kind of do. One thing that mmo all do that I hate though is xp grinding. You shouldnt have to spend month just to get certain skill. There should variant in classes. Like you want your mage or other ranged class to be a strictly AOE class. The you should be able to focus on those skill. One thing though in AOC, how would you contain all the elites if you didnt use instance. I can see your point about the scenariors idea not work to well in WAR though.
I dont know if anyone would agree with me or not. But do you see any point of resource (like copper or iron) spawning outside of a mine or quarry
I agree with the thread article to a certain degree. I do not, however, believe that the restaurant analogy is an accurate metaphor for the MMO industry. If anything, other restaurants are like other games, for example RTS or FPS games. Fast food chains however are the MMO’s of the market, so while a nice Chinese restaurant could be like Halo, and therefore should not compared with McDonalds (WOW). Burger King, as a representation of WAR, should be compared with McDonalds.
The thing is, they should be compared. No one should expect the same things that WOW delivers to be delivered in all other games. Just like you don’t totally freak out when you don’t get fries with your meal from Subway as you would normally get from McDonalds. They do things differently.
Just because WOW is popular and seemed to get a few things right (ok it got a lot of things very right) doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways of going about things. I’m sick of whingers in nearly every new MMO complaining about how different it is to WOW and as a result complaining about how wrong or bad it is.
In the end, WOW did a lot of things right, sure compare other games to WOW but just because they are different, don’t immediately assume they did it wrong.
I agree on most of the thing stated here, but I simply can not agree on one: is WOW any other game good is matter of personal oppinion. No it is not. Is it fun to play yes, that is matter of pesonal oppinion but quality is not one's persons oppinion, it is based on many facts and on many things. For example I really do not believe that any 2 people can really discuss about graphic quality if they do not have a clue what is acctually a graphic quality? If 2 people do not basic of music composittion how they can discuss about music quality at a first place? So I say we can only discuss about do we peronally like it or not, we can not discuss about quality or certain aspects of certain game.
And I believe it is only natural that people who have used to one way of thinking and playing and are little lazy to switch to another way of thinking or playing reject that product as "not good". For example I have a friend who plays only WOW saying he do not like other playing method of other games. I feel sorry for him, cause if he does not change his attitude he will never learn trills of EVE's PvP or storyline of GW.
I agree on most of the thing stated here, but I simply can not agree on one: is WOW any other game good is matter of personal oppinion. No it is not. Is it fun to play yes, that is matter of pesonal oppinion but quality is not one's persons oppinion, it is based on many facts and on many things. For example I really do not believe that any 2 people can really discuss about graphic quality if they do not have a clue what is acctually a graphic quality? If 2 people do not basic of music composittion how they can discuss about music quality at a first place? So I say we can only discuss about do we peronally like it or not, we can not discuss about quality or certain aspects of certain game. And I believe it is only natural that people who have used to one way of thinking and playing and are little lazy to switch to another way of thinking or playing reject that product as "not good". For example I have a friend who plays only WOW saying he do not like other playing method of other games. I feel sorry for him, cause if he does not change his attitude he will never learn trills of EVE's PvP or storyline of GW.
This, in my opinion, is a really good post.
One thing I see referred to here, is that essentially, games should really be looked at, to a certain degree, as an art form. You talk about discussing the "quality" of graphics and you refer to music composition and the quality of music. Games, also, are an art form. They have art, music, composition, with the added dimension of the technical aspects of programming and coding, that can either add to the artistic merit of the work, or...in some cases....detract from it. Therefore, much like art, people see them (games) with different "eyes."
I am a huge fan of the French impressionists. I love Monet, Degas, Van Gogh, Cassatt. My sister prefers modern artists such as Warhol, Chagall, Dali. Now while I do NOT enjoy their work.....I can appreciate that they ARE fine artists. And while my sister doesn't like Monet's Water Lilies....she still appreciates the exquisite use of light that Monet uses, it's just that his work, overall, doesn't APPEAL to her.
Where I think things get confused in gaming, is that, for some reason, people are quick to say "THAT is good," and "THAT is terrible." Where with ART....people are more apt to say, "I simply do not enjoy their work," and less apt to say, "That isn't art....that totally sucks." Art....like beauty....is in the eyes of the beholder. People understand that....about art....perhaps not so much, about games.
MOST OFTEN....opinions about games are based on what the person making the comment enjoys. Even if you begin to dissect a game from a technical standpoint, unless the technical issues truly render a game unplayable....there is still much in issuing a "judgment" regarding technical issues, that is determined by what the person making the comment PREFERS. Some people love AoCs combat controls....others do not. (I know....I find it hard to believe, myself, that anyone likes it, but....like some think Andy Warhol is a genius, there are people that LOVE AoCs combat. Personally...I find it annoying and unenjoyable....in the same way that Warhol's Campbell's Soup can piece annoys me. My sister...adores it.)
Perhaps if gamers could take a step back....like you do when you're viewing a painting at a gallery....and look at games similar to the way you would look at art....we could see that MOST games have at least SOME artistic merit. And we could also maybe see that there are REASONS that ALL DIFFERENT GAMES appeal to ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
I can hear the restaurant argument, "Yes, but if someone has never had the Sauteed Maryland Crabcake at Spago in Beverly Hills, of COURSE they might think that Red Lobster actually has good crabcakes!!" And my response to that is this.....of COURSE Spago has mouth-watering crabcakes, BUT.....does that therefore mean that Red Lobster's crabcakes SUCK?! No, it doesn't! Heck...some people might even like Long John Silver's crabcakes! (Personally....that thought gags me....BUT it doesn't mean that someone is not entitled to enjoy crabcakes from WHEREVER THEY LIKE.) It is all a matter of TASTE. And we express our TASTE....by using our wallets.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES.....
If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
I definetly like the comparison of DDO to WoW. The first thing people learn in DDO is to lose the 'tank' mindset and replace it with a melee class (Pally/war for missions with few spellcasters or when you need to hold the line, pallys/bars for spellcasters etc.)
On a more drastic note with mmo innovation this can be taken from WoW -> DDO - > EVE Online. In wow you have your preset classes with your even more preset min/maxed talents, to DDO which takes a turn for flexibility aka the realm of the uncomfortable and finally meeting a brick wall at EVE which gives the players total control with limited interference.
While I understand I went from Theme Park -> Theme Park -> Sandbox, its a demonstration for the different types of people who play it.
Person A may like having things set in stone for them, and always knowing what to expect, s/he would hate the latter two and would love WoW.
Person B likes a challenge without the need to farm for equipment, group based gameplay, the ability to make your own class, but likes a semi structured linear quest line game, s/he would play DDO.
Person C has spent months looking for a new mmo they like the social aspect that it brings. They're not to keen on dungeon running but are a good team player. They want something different. Try EVE.
Terminology also switches from game to game. A hunter in WoW isn't the same as a ranger in EQ, and neither are the same as a ranger in DDO (actually a ranger in DDO and EQ are close but...)
Also a little snippet on why are two almost same classes from two games different. The WoW priest and the EQ cleric.This is back when I stopped playing EQ a little bit after Lost Dungeons of Norrath. The EQ cleric had plate armor, while the WoW priest has cloth. EQ plate armor is the equivilant to WoW Plate armor, cloth armor if I can remember is the equivilant to EQ light or cloth(forgot the name) the ranking came up the same, cloth,leather,medium(chain),plate(not sure if they released a new one.)
When I told a lot of people in WoW about the clerics armor they automaticly thought, OP? Not exactly when you look at the game mechanics. Before instancing which was probably 3 years post launch, everything was open world, and the cleric needed to live in order to rez someone and give back a person a large amount of their XP, 93% if they had their epic weapon(Not like wow classes had their own which was done in a rediculous quest) And any mob could attack you if it respawned and looked at you funny. In WoW you go in an instance, you have your tank usually in front its very linear, good priests rarely get hurt, and they have aggro drops. Clerics were more like a WoW holy pally, but you can't say that because the pally was a tank class that didn't resemble anything in WoW.
I agree on most of the thing stated here, but I simply can not agree on one: is WOW any other game good is matter of personal oppinion. No it is not. Is it fun to play yes, that is matter of pesonal oppinion but quality is not one's persons oppinion, it is based on many facts and on many things. For example I really do not believe that any 2 people can really discuss about graphic quality if they do not have a clue what is acctually a graphic quality? If 2 people do not basic of music composittion how they can discuss about music quality at a first place? So I say we can only discuss about do we peronally like it or not, we can not discuss about quality or certain aspects of certain game. And I believe it is only natural that people who have used to one way of thinking and playing and are little lazy to switch to another way of thinking or playing reject that product as "not good". For example I have a friend who plays only WOW saying he do not like other playing method of other games. I feel sorry for him, cause if he does not change his attitude he will never learn trills of EVE's PvP or storyline of GW.
This, in my opinion, is a really good post.
One thing I see referred to here, is that essentially, games should really be looked at, to a certain degree, as an art form. You talk about discussing the "quality" of graphics and you refer to music composition and the quality of music. Games, also, are an art form. They have art, music, composition, with the added dimension of the technical aspects of programming and coding, that can either add to the artistic merit of the work, or...in some cases....detract from it. Therefore, much like art, people see them (games) with different "eyes."
I am a huge fan of the French impressionists. I love Monet, Degas, Van Gogh, Cassatt. My sister prefers modern artists such as Warhol, Chagall, Dali. Now while I do NOT enjoy their work.....I can appreciate that they ARE fine artists. And while my sister doesn't like Monet's Water Lilies....she still appreciates the exquisite use of light that Monet uses, it's just that his work, overall, doesn't APPEAL to her.
Where I think things get confused in gaming, is that, for some reason, people are quick to say "THAT is good," and "THAT is terrible." Where with ART....people are more apt to say, "I simply do not enjoy their work," and less apt to say, "That isn't art....that totally sucks." Art....like beauty....is in the eyes of the beholder. People understand that....about art....perhaps not so much, about games.
MOST OFTEN....opinions about games are based on what the person making the comment enjoys. Even if you begin to dissect a game from a technical standpoint, unless the technical issues truly render a game unplayable....there is still much in issuing a "judgment" regarding technical issues, that is determined by what the person making the comment PREFERS. Some people love AoCs combat controls....others do not. (I know....I find it hard to believe, myself, that anyone likes it, but....like some think Andy Warhol is a genius, there are people that LOVE AoCs combat. Personally...I find it annoying and unenjoyable....in the same way that Warhol's Campbell's Soup can piece annoys me. My sister...adores it.)
Perhaps if gamers could take a step back....like you do when you're viewing a painting at a gallery....and look at games similar to the way you would look at art....we could see that MOST games have at least SOME artistic merit. And we could also maybe see that there are REASONS that ALL DIFFERENT GAMES appeal to ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
I can hear the restaurant argument, "Yes, but if someone has never had the Sauteed Maryland Crabcake at Spago in Beverly Hills, of COURSE they might think that Red Lobster actually has good crabcakes!!" And my response to that is this.....of COURSE Spago has mouth-watering crabcakes, BUT.....does that therefore mean that Red Lobster's crabcakes SUCK?! No, it doesn't! Heck...some people might even like Long John Silver's crabcakes! (Personally....that thought gags me....BUT it doesn't mean that someone is not entitled to enjoy crabcakes from WHEREVER THEY LIKE.) It is all a matter of TASTE. And we express our TASTE....by using our wallets.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES.....
If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards."
If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART. Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
My take is quite the opposite! Why cant WOW be more like the other games! I just quit WOW today and for a very good reason! I thought I had read all of WOW Policies and Rules about 3rd party software, but I was led to believe they were talking about bots...I was wrong! WOW is against Joysticks controllers too! WOW is the only game in the World where you can not use a Joystick to play their game! They have gone tooooo far!
Function is the core of any software! Not the glamour...fancy art...or cute lines! Okay...yes, I can use a keyboard, but in my particular situation no game is worth that kind of pain! I have Back problems. I can understand bots...thats a no brainer! But Joysticks...come on get real! Its really sad because I was really starting to enjoy the game but no game is worth that! They had it so that my character was spinning in circles...walking backwards...so much so I lost control of my computer...I had to manually turn it off to get control back! Its WOW that is loosing control...they have lost control over how users function in their game!
I wasnt banned from WOW...I was driven away! Thats okay...I can take my money anywhere these days...because there are plenty of other choices out there! And I have already found one!
Jaime, I agree. In order to try out a new game no matter what it is you decide to try. You should not do two quest and say negative. You then tell people that you are narrow minded and probably only came in to be negative because you are a die hard fan of the game you play. Sadly there are people out there that do this.
When trying a new game whether it is a trial or beta I try to look at some of the things you do as well. Is it fun? Is there lots to see and do? Is there tradeskills? Is it hard to play and figure out? (this is something that can turn someone away quick). If it is too hard to figure out the basics then it is going to turn peeps off.
But human nature prevails no matter how hard we try not to and when we log into a new game consious or unconious the graphics, UI and other things take a judgement in comparison to whatever it is we are used to. The truth be told though just like in Archlord(no longer available in the US), Shiaya, Atlantica or some of the other Free to Plays overall the graphics and game play are not really that bad. The toons aren't terrible and the mechanics aren't bad either. They have their drawbacks as all games do but they are still fun. Do they have the player base that WoW does? I am sure not but they do have a player base and they do survie.
Lets face it there are not too many EQ's or WoW's out there and even the big ones will loose appeal over the years no matter how hard they try not too. But they can survie and go on at least until it is not profitable for them to do so.
Thx for the answer to my points. I would like to add one or two points tho.
I do not quite understand how a game like WOW is supposed to be only about the buisness model. Thats simply not the case - and games like AOC and WAR has shown that the buisness model alone will not support any game longterm. And as far as content is conserned - Thats just personal opinions if its good or bad. If you measure the actual QUALITY of the content - then WOW would win every single time. Then Im not talking any "language" or graphical quality - but custimor satisfaction. Why do you think games like WAR and AOC have gone down from around 1 million players down to probably 1/10th of that in just over a year ? Its not the buisness model that failed. It was the QUALITY of the game. Both these games are plauged with so many "annoying" factors that ppl just give up. Or become bored to death.
But I will have to agree with the person that said instancing is a potential killer of any game. Let that be a lesson to those games in development atm.
I agree with some points, but disagree with others. To start postitive, the one thing I absolutely agree with is that we need niche games.
Right now I'm as unsatisfied as I've ever been with gaming, and feeling very nastalgic. I think the reason is the old games catered to my niche - fantasy games with good PvP and roleplay. Then along came WoW, and for the following years, along came the WoW clones. So now my old, favorite games are too dated. Their graphics aren't up to par and they're generally ghost towns so I find returning to be depressing. The most modern games are all WoW clones, but I'm tired of WoW, and if I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW.
Now the games of any interest are in development, so I've got to wait for those. But I'm not even entirely thrilled with them. I'm -all for- innovation but I'm finding that said innovation is straying further from my niche. Remember, my favorite games were the classics. As things continue to evolve, there's less and less games for me. At least that I know I like - I'm not crazy over FPS mmos, but maybe some of those will be fun as I haven't much experience with them. I'm keeping an open mind.
I think the MMO genre could do with a few sequels. How about a UO 2, or a DAoC 2, or EQ3? Do them well. Pump lots of money into them, and stick to the classic ideas that made the originals so enjoyable.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES..... If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards." If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.
Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Good article, but I have to disagree with you. I have played a number of MMOs, everything from DAOC to SWG to WoW. I still compare any game I play to WoW in many respects. To me, WoW has a lot going for it. It's so simple and to the point that you can figure it out within 10 minutes of playing and actually have a decent chance of being good. The graphics are nice, but don't kill older machines. The sound is fairly well done. The fact that it allows addons is a huge plus. I liked other games for different reasons. I loved DAOC (my first mmo), but in the end the playability of WoW won me over. I hated WoW when it came out, I actually didn't start playing it regularly until about 4 months before wrath came out. Like it or not, WoW is THE gold standard to which other games NEED to be measured in things like playability, aesthetics, compatibility and customization. Not only measured on, but all these things need to be improved on as well. I see many games that focus on one or two of these issues, but none have captured all 4 of these very basic reasons why WoW is such a success.
I dis agree with you friend. WOW is not the gold standard. There are a lot of people who play it but that doesn't make it the best MMO. That just makes it a very succesful MMO. Its kinda like internet explorer, lots of people use it because thats what they are used to. By no means is it the best just because everyone uses it. WOW being the the best MMO is still an opinion. People need to learn to go into a new MMO with an open mind.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES..... If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards." If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.
Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art. For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all. We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies. So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing. If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion. And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES..... If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards." If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.
Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art.
I have a bachelor's degree in graphic design from University of Missouri - Kansas City. I have coninued to take adult education classes since then, in assorted art mediums. I was the owner of KC Internet Insights, where I did CD cover, book cover, and product cover design for both physical and virtual products for 5 years, until I became ill, and am now disabled. In my teens and 20s I worked for Missouri Repertory Theater doing set design and construction for their first two seasons at the Helen F. Spencer Center for the Performing Arts. My father is retired from Hallmark Cards where he worked as a professional photographer and card artist for 38 years. My paternal aunt is a professional sculptor named Marrita, who has sold her bronzed sculptures world wide and also sculpted the larger-than-life-size paint horses outside the American Paint Horse Association, among many other things. My maternal aunt Judy is a professional fine artist who works in oils and pastels. My first cousin, Joel, who I grew up with, is now a film editor in Los Angeles. He has also made various documentaries. My sister Allison is also and artist and works in woods and natural arts, handcrafting various items from wood, including pens, sculptures, and fine furnishings. My other aunt (my mother's YOUNGER sister, Marsha, is a jewelry artist and works with metals and naturals, handcrafting jewelry, which she sells both on the internet and from her store in Seattle, Washington. My mother is a professional copy-editor (sadly, I did not inherit her skills with grammar). So....I not only have artistic background myself, but I grew up with artists. My entire family consists of artists involved in various mediums, not only professionally, but they have done these things, as I have, their entire lives. I feel qualified in the sense that I do know a little about art, in various forms. No...we do not have any computer programmers in the family, if that is to be your next question. But I do not think that to appreciate ART....one requires all of this background in art.
For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all.
Where on EARTH you come up with film "not being art at all" is beyond me. I would love to know where YOU learned what is art, and what is not.
We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies.
This seems to agree with the point that I myself made, regarding what the gaming industry sees as their "cream of the crop" and what gamers see as the same. I said myself, that those things DIFFER, and made the comparison to the People's Choice Awards, and the Academy Awards, so that you could better understand. Apparently, you're still not "getting" that.
So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing.
And I take it you don't see special effects as their own type of art? Special effects are not creative because they use a different medium than a paint brush to create them? I still say that your view of what is art, and what is not, is very skewed and simplistic. Film making is indeed an art form, and I would challenge you to assert that it is NOT...to anyone that does it, or to the professionals that judge this very technical art form.
If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
I don't care about your being offensive or even uneducated about art, in it's various forms. What I DO care about is you perpetuating the delusional idea that game design is NOT a form of art, is not creative, does not require absolute creative geniuses to produce or that it should not be held to many of the same "standards" as other forms of creative design in art. Games, just like other forms of art, use color psychology, spatial relationship, and al of the other skills that other art forms use. Everything you SEE in a game, from landscapes to characters, are designed by ARTISTS, hand-rendered LONG before they are computer generated, which I suggest to you, is also a very art in and of itself.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion.
Oh do TELL of what YOUR great experience is as an artist, both professionally and otherwise, so that you can make "lil' ol' me" understand your great knowledge of the arts, because right now, you're failing at that. All I see is someone who is determined that there is no art in the process of game design and implementation, and frankly, you're looking rather silly, at least to me, and quite possibly to everyone reading this thread.
And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
Yes, I suppose that I'm "guessing" that the artists involved in the art direction of games, actually think of themselves as artists. Considering I have spent my entire life around artists, and am an artist myself, I don't think that I'm far off base in "guessing" that. What is YOUR experience that makes you think that game designers and art directors of games do not see themselves as creative artists? I'm just curious here......
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
I never suggested that games consist of NOTHING but art. I DID, however, suggest...that very much like film and other forms of photographic and 3D art forms, games are, as a whole, a type of artistic expression and are artistically designed prior to having the technical aspects added to them....VERY MUCH in the same way as videograpy and film, and other artistic forms of entertainment, including live theater, as one example. You have a very restrictive sense of what is an art form, and what is not. I am open to "normal discussion," but I don't seem to be able to HAVE this discussion with YOU, because you're so interested in putting a restrictive box around something as broadly creative as the artistic process, which leads me to believe that YOU have no artistic inclination nor experience.
Game quality is not something you can judge from only ONE perspective, because games are made of many different functioning parts that work together as a whole. The art direction and design is only ONE part of a whole work. Games also can be judged from the standpoint of playability and the technical aspects of concise or bloated coding and other more technical issues, which....I am not professionally qualified to judge. However, as a gamer, I know what I enjoy and like to play. I know what feels comfortable to play, has smoothness of animation, has comfortably functioning user interfaces, etc. And ALL GAMERS judge those thing in games, by whether they enjoy PLAYING the games, and therefore....by the games on which the INDIVIDUALLY choose to spend their money. Who are YOU to say that a game that 500k people or 11 million people ENJOY is not a quality piece of work? Who are YOU to determine what is a quality game? I want to know WHY you think YOU are more qualified than any OTHER gamer to say that "World of Warcraft is not a quality game," or that "Aion is not a quality game," or that "Everquest is not a quality game?" YOU can only determine what is good....to YOU. And THAT.....was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of my entire conversation with you, aside from saying that game design, is an art form.
I think it is YOU that is being hard headed and unable to have a discussion, because you think that the people that spend their money to PLAY these games are so entirely ignorant that they cannot say what, to THEM, is a good game, and what is not. It's not up to YOU to decide that for another person, regardless of what YOU THINK something is "quality" or not....in the exact same sense that some people like Picasso and others like Renoir. You're not qualified (no one is) to determine what another person sees as quality. But the people in the industry who design the games.....perhaps THEY are qualified to judge the technical work of their peers, which is WHY I linked to the Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences. Now why are you so damn determined to argue about it all? I don't understand your vehemence in arguing that game design is not an art form. It's not only misinformed, it's a very STRANGE thing to argue about.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES..... If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards." If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.
Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art.
I have a bachelor's degree in graphic design from University of Missouri - Kansas City. I have coninued to take adult education classes since then, in assorted art mediums. I was the owner of KC Internet Insights, where I did CD cover, book cover, and product cover design for both physical and virtual products for 5 years, until I became ill, and am now disabled. In my teens and 20s I worked for Missouri Repertory Theater doing set design and construction for their first two seasons at the Helen F. Spencer Center for the Performing Arts. My father is retired from Hallmark Cards where he worked as a professional photographer and card artist for 38 years. My paternal aunt is a professional sculptor named Marrita, who has sold her bronzed sculptures world wide and also sculpted the larger-than-life-size paint horses outside the American Paint Horse Association, among many other things. My maternal aunt Judy is a professional fine artist who works in oils and pastels. My first cousin, Joel, who I grew up with, is now a film editor in Los Angeles. He has also made various documentaries. My sister Allison is also and artist and works in woods and natural arts, handcrafting various items from wood, including pens, sculptures, and fine furnishings. My other aunt (my mother's YOUNGER sister, Marsha, is a jewelry artist and works with metals and naturals, handcrafting jewelry, which she sells both on the internet and from her store in Seattle, Washington. My mother is a professional copy-editor (sadly, I did not inherit her skills with grammar). So....I not only have artistic background myself, but I grew up with artists. My entire family consists of artists involved in various mediums, not only professionally, but they have done these things, as I have, their entire lives. I feel qualified in the sense that I do know a little about art, in various forms. No...we do not have any computer programmers in the family, if that is to be your next question. But I do not think that to appreciate ART....one requires all of this background in art.
For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all.
Where on EARTH you come up with film "not being art at all" is beyond me. I would love to know where YOU learned what is art, and what is not.
We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies.
This seems to agree with the point that I myself made, regarding what the gaming industry sees as their "cream of the crop" and what gamers see as the same. I said myself, that those things DIFFER, and made the comparison to the People's Choice Awards, and the Academy Awards, so that you could better understand. Apparently, you're still not "getting" that.
So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing.
And I take it you don't see special effects as their own type of art? Special effects are not creative because they use a different medium than a paint brush to create them? I still say that your view of what is art, and what is not, is very skewed and simplistic. Film making is indeed an art form, and I would challenge you to assert that it is NOT...to anyone that does it, or to the professionals that judge this very technical art form.
If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
I don't care about your being offensive or even uneducated about art, in it's various forms. What I DO care about is you perpetuating the delusional idea that game design is NOT a form of art, is not creative, does not require absolute creative geniuses to produce or that it should not be held to many of the same "standards" as other forms of creative design in art. Games, just like other forms of art, use color psychology, spatial relationship, and al of the other skills that other art forms use. Everything you SEE in a game, from landscapes to characters, are designed by ARTISTS, hand-rendered LONG before they are computer generated, which I suggest to you, is also a very art in and of itself.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion.
Oh do TELL of what YOUR great experience is as an artist, both professionally and otherwise, so that you can make "lil' ol' me" understand your great knowledge of the arts, because right now, you're failing at that. All I see is someone who is determined that there is no art in the process of game design and implementation, and frankly, you're looking rather silly, at least to me, and quite possibly to everyone reading this thread.
And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
Yes, I suppose that I'm "guessing" that the artists involved in the art direction of games, actually think of themselves as artists. Considering I have spent my entire life around artists, and am an artist myself, I don't think that I'm far off base in "guessing" that. What is YOUR experience that makes you think that game designers and art directors of games do not see themselves as creative artists? I'm just curious here......
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
I never suggested that games consist of NOTHING but art. I DID, however, suggest...that very much like film and other forms of photographic and 3D art forms, games are, as a whole, a type of artistic expression and are artistically designed prior to having the technical aspects added to them....VERY MUCH in the same way as videograpy and film, and other artistic forms of entertainment, including live theater, as one example. You have a very restrictive sense of what is an art form, and what is not. I am open to "normal discussion," but I don't seem to be able to HAVE this discussion with YOU, because you're so interested in putting a restrictive box around something as broadly creative as the artistic process, which leads me to believe that YOU have no artistic inclination nor experience.
Game quality is not something you can judge from only ONE perspective, because games are made of many different functioning parts that work together as a whole. The art direction and design is only ONE part of a whole work. Games also can be judged from the standpoint of playability and the technical aspects of concise or bloated coding and other more technical issues, which....I am not professionally qualified to judge. However, as a gamer, I know what I enjoy and like to play. I know what feels comfortable to play, has smoothness of animation, has comfortably functioning user interfaces, etc. And ALL GAMERS judge those thing in games, by whether they enjoy PLAYING the games, and therefore....by the games on which the INDIVIDUALLY choose to spend their money. Who are YOU to say that a game that 500k people or 11 million people ENJOY is not a quality piece of work? Who are YOU to determine what is a quality game? I want to know WHY you think YOU are more qualified than any OTHER gamer to say that "World of Warcraft is not a quality game," or that "Aion is not a quality game," or that "Everquest is not a quality game?" YOU can only determine what is good....to YOU. And THAT.....was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of my entire conversation with you, aside from saying that game design, is an art form.
I think it is YOU that is being hard headed and unable to have a discussion, because you think that the people that spend their money to PLAY these games are so entirely ignorant that they cannot say what, to THEM, is a good game, and what is not. It's not up to YOU to decide that for another person, regardless of what YOU THINK something is "quality" or not....in the exact same sense that some people like Picasso and others like Renoir. You're not qualified (no one is) to determine what another person sees as quality. But the people in the industry who design the games.....perhaps THEY are qualified to judge the technical work of their peers, which is WHY I linked to the Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences. Now why are you so damn determined to argue about it all? I don't understand your vehemence in arguing that game design is not an art form. It's not only misinformed, it's a very STRANGE thing to argue about.
I wonder why do you keep attacking all the time? Why are you so egocentric? Is it becouse you can not do stuff you want or wish? I also have bechelor degree, it is in design as well, but you seem to mistake art and design, very common mistake among people I must say. About my qualifications, I do not really want to go around yelling what I have done, I will just say I do work in game industry and I do know production pipeline and have many friends in big commpanies, but that is relevant. It is obvious that our points of art views are quite different, myself for example can think only of couple artists trought earths history like Da Vinci, Van Gogh or Dali, to think that any one works in special effect field can be compared to them (my field of work by the way) is just pure egocentric crap.
True artist have shared their art with the world freely, non selfishly, all of todays "artist" only are interesed in money. And today we have a ton of instutes and groups calling themselves artist, but are they indeed artist? I know a ton of so called artists, self proclaimed and self thought. Any one of them does not know color or compossition theory, and they run around making so called art. So my question really is: IS everything we see around us STILL art? I agree games WERE art once, but as movies they are turning into something else, something commercial, plain, simple, without form, withour artists touch, is new star trek artistic movi? Are transformers 2 artistic movie? sorry but that is not an art to me, and it should not be to anyone who claims to know about art. Will they become once again art, I hope so, I enjoy in good art, I like classic music, classic movies (artistic ones), old games which were artistic more that games today but sadly all of art is beign raped today and is getting commercialised, sad but thrue.
Now I will apologise once more time if I have offended you, cause simply I can not understand your agression toward me, maybe we have different understanding of things, maybe I got lost, but just maybe so have you. I do not want to make enemys, I want to make friends.
Please learn how to delete redundant quotes from your posts if you must quote other people.
Developers respond to the market, the market is generally too dumb to see beyond a label, this is why Nike & Coca Cola sell, because it is a label everyone knows and is either considered trustworthy or fashionable.
World of Warcraft is such a label, people either trust it or believe it is fashionable (peer pressure).
This is not going to change, this is never going to change, this is the height of capitalism.
Accept this and you will be fine, there are plenty of different MMOs out there.
Pretty spirited thread here, but I think that both of you are somewhat guilty of forgetting something which pertains to all art.
The gray area of the creator's intention. Games can easily be art but, it depends on what the developers intentions are for the user experience.
Personally I think that there is so much debate here over what qualifies a game as art that you could cover you bases by saying game are art (see Final Fantasy7, Braid, Linger in Shadows), but that games are poor representations of that idea (Dynasty Warriors).
I agree - there should be different measuring sticks. You brought up DDO. It's a great example of an MMO that should be judged not by WoW, but by pen and paper D&D, which was the goal of the system. The 'rest shrines' are a perfect example of why DDO fails on both sets of measuring sticks. No WoW player likes them, and D&D players think they're stupid, too.
Pretty spirited thread here, but I think that both of you are somewhat guilty of forgetting something which pertains to all art. The gray area of the creator's intention. Games can easily be art but, it depends on what the developers intentions are for the user experience. Personally I think that there is so much debate here over what qualifies a game as art that you could cover you bases by saying game are art (see Final Fantasy7, Braid, Linger in Shadows), but that games are poor representations of that idea (Dynasty Warriors).
Yes I believe you are right, I have putted that out from my mind, thank you for reminding me. I am just so sad that today more and more games are commercial projects. Seldom in thesse days people express themselves trought game. I believe and hope that indy market will change that.
The article title Player Perspective: The Stale Comparison .
I am not sure how art came into play on this. Art is art whether in a game, a painting or even in films. There is an art to developing a game. film, painting or even writing.
The Stale Comparison that we all do is not limited to game as was an example of a fast food and a restaurant. As flawed humans that follow what we have seen or done with what we experience tend to compare something new with something we have become familiar with and know.
Is it fair? Probably not but it is human nature. If we like something and try something new we will compare it to something we are familar with. As someone stated. Some games like some products have made a name for themselves and that name is what people come to know.
It is also true that you will find similarities in many games with games like EQ and WoW. It is hard not to see or find such things. I would imagine developing any game there will be things no matter how hard they try not to will be similar maybe even appear the same.
I agree - there should be different measuring sticks. You brought up DDO. It's a great example of an MMO that should be judged not by WoW, but by pen and paper D&D, which was the goal of the system. The 'rest shrines' are a perfect example of why DDO fails on both sets of measuring sticks. No WoW player likes them, and D&D players think they're stupid, too.
I actually like the rest shrine system, thanks for being the vocal minority, hows Ebberon Unlimited treating you? Did you get off of korthos yet, or are you wondering why your 1rogue 1cleric 1 pally isnt lasting as long as a 2monk (see I can make judgements without knowing the person or people I'm attacking also!)
They're there for a reason, if mana/health regen was as rapid in WoW the instances would be more of a cakewalk then Ulduar (zing)
And if Turbine didn't adapt the PnP rules of D&D to an MMORPG setting, then the instances would barely be completed and DDO would be empty 2 weeks post release.
If they really judged it by PnP D&D you would hate it even more, no mana/health regen in dungeons, hell no mana, all your spells and abilites are reduced to x per day type abilities, which only reset in taverns (rest shrines are basicly mini taverns used to swap spells reset per day abilities and heal, since there would be no mana in a PnP online D&D. There would be one consistant attack speed, And IIRC D&D has friendly fire, exp loss, and takes a hell of a lot longer to level, considering your DM doesn't put a 26 red dragon with 1 hp inside a dungeon.
tl;dr version : They cut you a lot of slack in DDO, if you want to judge it by something, think of NwN, from a devs standpoint its like giving escargo to the french and then giving american suburbia the same dish. Different audience, different reaction.
Everything deserves a topic but I don't often see this as a really big problem in mmo's I've rarely heard anyone saying something should be more like wow, maybe it's because by habit I turn off newbie zone chat especially around a launch but I just don't see it. I do see lot's of games implimenting systems similar to those of WOW but that is business beleive it or not the investors are not always as pasisionate as we are and sometimes will push for things that may be in wow because ultimately they win if the game pulls inwow numbers. But having said that again nothing short of WOW lore is an original concept it has mostly all been there before, often I hear these systems eluded to as original to mmo's but again the basic design of mmo's have been around since the console days.
I think what people underestimate about WOW is the fact that you can probably play it on an ATARI 2600 until WOW there weren't alot of mmo's that could say this I know because I was one of those people, my pc was not a big concern as a console gamer so the first game I was ever able to get to work was WOW and I was hooked, it opened me to the idea of subscription based mmo's and I then upgraded and moved on but the average person is going to stay casual they are not going to search specifically at times for a more complex or deep or role play friendly experience.
Ultimately the industry will change as it must as all things must in this day and age and that is gradually there is not much left to invent only expand upon. In ten years time I hope to see a game that is built in total of game systems not used in any game today but will most likely be built of systems that have been used as early as starting say next year even.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
What a well-written article! This is so very true, I believe that this is where the whole "Go back to WoW!" phrase originated from of course. I don't see why people would use World of Warcraft as a measuring stick, I mean it is truly the dynamo of MMORPGs, judging by subscribers not opinion, but there is much more potential out there. There will, someday, be a game that rises above WoW and becomes a measuring stick itself, until that day we'll just have to stick to our favorites and put up with the fact that there is nothing that we can do, individually, about how popular a game becomes. (I mean, if someone likes it, they like it.) I hope to someday make that game, the one that rises above the rest, myself. Though I do indeed think that there should not be a measuring stick for MMOs but rather people need to pick the one that is most fun (yes, fun) to them. Fun is something many gamers forget.
Comments
What the MMORPG genre needs are developers who have never made a MMORPG and don't listen to the old school community. At all.
5-6 years ago if you had asked the all-wise, old-school MMORPG players who were the Gurus of MMORPG design you'd be given names like Brad McQuaid (Everquest), Mark Jacobs (Dark Age of Camelot), Gauge Godar (Anarchy Online) and of course, RIchard 'Space Cadet' Garriott (Ultima).
These were the people who those first gen MMORPG players would have picked to be the brilliant genuises that would make the next generation of MMORPGs. Since then *ALL* of those people have have been fired or left their companies after the release of their attempts at a modern MMORPG.
People can try to bring up various different reasons for their collective failures from bad management skills to deciding they want to play astronaut or whatever. But there is one over-arching, fundamental reason - rhe one thing they ALL had in common - they were simply all bad game designers.
For a decade MMORPGs were a niche market that failed to attract the numbers of every other video game genre like FPS, RTS, 4X, single player RPGs etc. While other games were selling millions, MMORPGs drew in fractions of that. You had a hardcore community of players who paid for games no one else was willing to play. Now those same developers were simply unable to produce games that could truly compete in the modern online market.
The article is completely correct. The community whines for innovation but when a game tries to break away from the tedious, timesink, garbage mechanics of old MMORPGs that they love so much, they whine even louder.
MMORPGs are evolving and changing. They will be nothing like UO and EQ or any other previous MMORPG.
And that is not reason to whine, but a reason to be thankful.
Ive been a mmo player now for ... well must be 20 years and there are alot of games that say they are the "next evolution" in gaming but sadly are all the same.
sure we want some things to stay the same Im prety happy with the controls I commonly use in LOTRO where i can cross control between my mouse and keyboard but it seems that every game that comes out is built in some form of isolation bubble and makes the same mistakes or reinvents the wheel time and time again.
lets take lord of the rings online for example.. nice base controls i my opinion but they have yet to master resizeable windows in the UI most anoying
I also go more globaly the auction houses are WRECKING MMOS a single auction sure might be easy for the devs but its a crippling feature for games as price fixing and gold farming are assured wanna buy a new pair of pants for your low level alt? better be ready to plop down 2 gold and the only way to do this if yor hot a high level raider id visa or mastercard. and if you post some ore for a low price someone wiill buy it and re sell it for their own higher price and these AH have no price historys built in so they cant see that ore had been purchassed for 1/10 what it is priced at now (if your gonna have a AH you need to have statistics)
what they need is to diversify the merchants have every town have a designated merchant and each player can post say 5-6 items (they can buy more slots) this means that each town has a bit of isolation it is more difficult to price fix I also say let guilds of a certain size also have their own vender
what I am saying is that some things we want to remain the same and some things we want more innovation
lets take the AI BRAIN as far as im concerned there still using the same AI brain they used back in everquest this is like using model-T wheels on a porche in areas such as this its obvious that developers are coasting similar areas are in questing and generic mob spawn generators. Why must you come into a game and get the "kill 10 spiders" from a vending machine NPC and then you go out and kill the spiders only to have them respawn 3 minutes later there are better ways there are many tricks that can be employed such as overlaping, competing spawns imbeded quests
I really hate upper end games because there all the same.. they are reduced to PVP or raiding and the inevidable "PIT-O-MOBS" devs seem to think that "chalanging" means adding more hitpoints to the proverbial rat instead of making the rat smarter instances put me to sleep.
lets take AGE OF CONAN what I expected was a more raw, rugged immersive game play,, what I got was more of the same WOW like game play just with exceedingly high graphics requirements WOW to me is the bench test for this specific form of simplistic, arcade like brainless game play and untill game makers get out of the box (as far as content goes) they are allways going to be measured up against the BOSS of this type of game build.
there are only so many ways you can cook oatmeal if you dont want it compared to quaker oatmeal than cook up some eggs and toast.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
Good point. I didnt notice that abiut most of those games, but looking at it now I kind of do. One thing that mmo all do that I hate though is xp grinding. You shouldnt have to spend month just to get certain skill. There should variant in classes. Like you want your mage or other ranged class to be a strictly AOE class. The you should be able to focus on those skill. One thing though in AOC, how would you contain all the elites if you didnt use instance. I can see your point about the scenariors idea not work to well in WAR though.
I dont know if anyone would agree with me or not. But do you see any point of resource (like copper or iron) spawning outside of a mine or quarry
I agree with the thread article to a certain degree. I do not, however, believe that the restaurant analogy is an accurate metaphor for the MMO industry. If anything, other restaurants are like other games, for example RTS or FPS games. Fast food chains however are the MMO’s of the market, so while a nice Chinese restaurant could be like Halo, and therefore should not compared with McDonalds (WOW). Burger King, as a representation of WAR, should be compared with McDonalds.
The thing is, they should be compared. No one should expect the same things that WOW delivers to be delivered in all other games. Just like you don’t totally freak out when you don’t get fries with your meal from Subway as you would normally get from McDonalds. They do things differently.
Just because WOW is popular and seemed to get a few things right (ok it got a lot of things very right) doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways of going about things. I’m sick of whingers in nearly every new MMO complaining about how different it is to WOW and as a result complaining about how wrong or bad it is.
In the end, WOW did a lot of things right, sure compare other games to WOW but just because they are different, don’t immediately assume they did it wrong.
I agree on most of the thing stated here, but I simply can not agree on one: is WOW any other game good is matter of personal oppinion. No it is not. Is it fun to play yes, that is matter of pesonal oppinion but quality is not one's persons oppinion, it is based on many facts and on many things. For example I really do not believe that any 2 people can really discuss about graphic quality if they do not have a clue what is acctually a graphic quality? If 2 people do not basic of music composittion how they can discuss about music quality at a first place? So I say we can only discuss about do we peronally like it or not, we can not discuss about quality or certain aspects of certain game.
And I believe it is only natural that people who have used to one way of thinking and playing and are little lazy to switch to another way of thinking or playing reject that product as "not good". For example I have a friend who plays only WOW saying he do not like other playing method of other games. I feel sorry for him, cause if he does not change his attitude he will never learn trills of EVE's PvP or storyline of GW.
This, in my opinion, is a really good post.
One thing I see referred to here, is that essentially, games should really be looked at, to a certain degree, as an art form. You talk about discussing the "quality" of graphics and you refer to music composition and the quality of music. Games, also, are an art form. They have art, music, composition, with the added dimension of the technical aspects of programming and coding, that can either add to the artistic merit of the work, or...in some cases....detract from it. Therefore, much like art, people see them (games) with different "eyes."
I am a huge fan of the French impressionists. I love Monet, Degas, Van Gogh, Cassatt. My sister prefers modern artists such as Warhol, Chagall, Dali. Now while I do NOT enjoy their work.....I can appreciate that they ARE fine artists. And while my sister doesn't like Monet's Water Lilies....she still appreciates the exquisite use of light that Monet uses, it's just that his work, overall, doesn't APPEAL to her.
Where I think things get confused in gaming, is that, for some reason, people are quick to say "THAT is good," and "THAT is terrible." Where with ART....people are more apt to say, "I simply do not enjoy their work," and less apt to say, "That isn't art....that totally sucks." Art....like beauty....is in the eyes of the beholder. People understand that....about art....perhaps not so much, about games.
MOST OFTEN....opinions about games are based on what the person making the comment enjoys. Even if you begin to dissect a game from a technical standpoint, unless the technical issues truly render a game unplayable....there is still much in issuing a "judgment" regarding technical issues, that is determined by what the person making the comment PREFERS. Some people love AoCs combat controls....others do not. (I know....I find it hard to believe, myself, that anyone likes it, but....like some think Andy Warhol is a genius, there are people that LOVE AoCs combat. Personally...I find it annoying and unenjoyable....in the same way that Warhol's Campbell's Soup can piece annoys me. My sister...adores it.)
Perhaps if gamers could take a step back....like you do when you're viewing a painting at a gallery....and look at games similar to the way you would look at art....we could see that MOST games have at least SOME artistic merit. And we could also maybe see that there are REASONS that ALL DIFFERENT GAMES appeal to ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
I can hear the restaurant argument, "Yes, but if someone has never had the Sauteed Maryland Crabcake at Spago in Beverly Hills, of COURSE they might think that Red Lobster actually has good crabcakes!!" And my response to that is this.....of COURSE Spago has mouth-watering crabcakes, BUT.....does that therefore mean that Red Lobster's crabcakes SUCK?! No, it doesn't! Heck...some people might even like Long John Silver's crabcakes! (Personally....that thought gags me....BUT it doesn't mean that someone is not entitled to enjoy crabcakes from WHEREVER THEY LIKE.) It is all a matter of TASTE. And we express our TASTE....by using our wallets.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES.....
If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
The Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards."
If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I definetly like the comparison of DDO to WoW. The first thing people learn in DDO is to lose the 'tank' mindset and replace it with a melee class (Pally/war for missions with few spellcasters or when you need to hold the line, pallys/bars for spellcasters etc.)
On a more drastic note with mmo innovation this can be taken from WoW -> DDO - > EVE Online. In wow you have your preset classes with your even more preset min/maxed talents, to DDO which takes a turn for flexibility aka the realm of the uncomfortable and finally meeting a brick wall at EVE which gives the players total control with limited interference.
While I understand I went from Theme Park -> Theme Park -> Sandbox, its a demonstration for the different types of people who play it.
Person A may like having things set in stone for them, and always knowing what to expect, s/he would hate the latter two and would love WoW.
Person B likes a challenge without the need to farm for equipment, group based gameplay, the ability to make your own class, but likes a semi structured linear quest line game, s/he would play DDO.
Person C has spent months looking for a new mmo they like the social aspect that it brings. They're not to keen on dungeon running but are a good team player. They want something different. Try EVE.
Terminology also switches from game to game. A hunter in WoW isn't the same as a ranger in EQ, and neither are the same as a ranger in DDO (actually a ranger in DDO and EQ are close but...)
Also a little snippet on why are two almost same classes from two games different. The WoW priest and the EQ cleric.This is back when I stopped playing EQ a little bit after Lost Dungeons of Norrath. The EQ cleric had plate armor, while the WoW priest has cloth. EQ plate armor is the equivilant to WoW Plate armor, cloth armor if I can remember is the equivilant to EQ light or cloth(forgot the name) the ranking came up the same, cloth,leather,medium(chain),plate(not sure if they released a new one.)
When I told a lot of people in WoW about the clerics armor they automaticly thought, OP? Not exactly when you look at the game mechanics. Before instancing which was probably 3 years post launch, everything was open world, and the cleric needed to live in order to rez someone and give back a person a large amount of their XP, 93% if they had their epic weapon(Not like wow classes had their own which was done in a rediculous quest) And any mob could attack you if it respawned and looked at you funny. In WoW you go in an instance, you have your tank usually in front its very linear, good priests rarely get hurt, and they have aggro drops. Clerics were more like a WoW holy pally, but you can't say that because the pally was a tank class that didn't resemble anything in WoW.
This, in my opinion, is a really good post.
One thing I see referred to here, is that essentially, games should really be looked at, to a certain degree, as an art form. You talk about discussing the "quality" of graphics and you refer to music composition and the quality of music. Games, also, are an art form. They have art, music, composition, with the added dimension of the technical aspects of programming and coding, that can either add to the artistic merit of the work, or...in some cases....detract from it. Therefore, much like art, people see them (games) with different "eyes."
I am a huge fan of the French impressionists. I love Monet, Degas, Van Gogh, Cassatt. My sister prefers modern artists such as Warhol, Chagall, Dali. Now while I do NOT enjoy their work.....I can appreciate that they ARE fine artists. And while my sister doesn't like Monet's Water Lilies....she still appreciates the exquisite use of light that Monet uses, it's just that his work, overall, doesn't APPEAL to her.
Where I think things get confused in gaming, is that, for some reason, people are quick to say "THAT is good," and "THAT is terrible." Where with ART....people are more apt to say, "I simply do not enjoy their work," and less apt to say, "That isn't art....that totally sucks." Art....like beauty....is in the eyes of the beholder. People understand that....about art....perhaps not so much, about games.
MOST OFTEN....opinions about games are based on what the person making the comment enjoys. Even if you begin to dissect a game from a technical standpoint, unless the technical issues truly render a game unplayable....there is still much in issuing a "judgment" regarding technical issues, that is determined by what the person making the comment PREFERS. Some people love AoCs combat controls....others do not. (I know....I find it hard to believe, myself, that anyone likes it, but....like some think Andy Warhol is a genius, there are people that LOVE AoCs combat. Personally...I find it annoying and unenjoyable....in the same way that Warhol's Campbell's Soup can piece annoys me. My sister...adores it.)
Perhaps if gamers could take a step back....like you do when you're viewing a painting at a gallery....and look at games similar to the way you would look at art....we could see that MOST games have at least SOME artistic merit. And we could also maybe see that there are REASONS that ALL DIFFERENT GAMES appeal to ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
I can hear the restaurant argument, "Yes, but if someone has never had the Sauteed Maryland Crabcake at Spago in Beverly Hills, of COURSE they might think that Red Lobster actually has good crabcakes!!" And my response to that is this.....of COURSE Spago has mouth-watering crabcakes, BUT.....does that therefore mean that Red Lobster's crabcakes SUCK?! No, it doesn't! Heck...some people might even like Long John Silver's crabcakes! (Personally....that thought gags me....BUT it doesn't mean that someone is not entitled to enjoy crabcakes from WHEREVER THEY LIKE.) It is all a matter of TASTE. And we express our TASTE....by using our wallets.
The motion picture industry has The Academy Awards where the industry....judges ITSELF. Of course, there are also The People's Choice Awards for motion pictures. Interesting that the winners of those two coveted awards....are not always the same, is it not? And so it is with GAMES.....
If you want to know what games the gaming industry (people who actually KNOW what it takes to make a great game) think are the greatest games, then go to:
The Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences
Scroll down to the "Interactive Achievement Awards."
If you want to know what games the gamers think are great games....that is going to vary from gamer to gamer to gamer. WE vote....with our wallets.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART. Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
My take is quite the opposite! Why cant WOW be more like the other games! I just quit WOW today and for a very good reason! I thought I had read all of WOW Policies and Rules about 3rd party software, but I was led to believe they were talking about bots...I was wrong! WOW is against Joysticks controllers too! WOW is the only game in the World where you can not use a Joystick to play their game! They have gone tooooo far!
Function is the core of any software! Not the glamour...fancy art...or cute lines! Okay...yes, I can use a keyboard, but in my particular situation no game is worth that kind of pain! I have Back problems. I can understand bots...thats a no brainer! But Joysticks...come on get real! Its really sad because I was really starting to enjoy the game but no game is worth that! They had it so that my character was spinning in circles...walking backwards...so much so I lost control of my computer...I had to manually turn it off to get control back! Its WOW that is loosing control...they have lost control over how users function in their game!
I wasnt banned from WOW...I was driven away! Thats okay...I can take my money anywhere these days...because there are plenty of other choices out there! And I have already found one!
SunnyDay
Jaime, I agree. In order to try out a new game no matter what it is you decide to try. You should not do two quest and say negative. You then tell people that you are narrow minded and probably only came in to be negative because you are a die hard fan of the game you play. Sadly there are people out there that do this.
When trying a new game whether it is a trial or beta I try to look at some of the things you do as well. Is it fun? Is there lots to see and do? Is there tradeskills? Is it hard to play and figure out? (this is something that can turn someone away quick). If it is too hard to figure out the basics then it is going to turn peeps off.
But human nature prevails no matter how hard we try not to and when we log into a new game consious or unconious the graphics, UI and other things take a judgement in comparison to whatever it is we are used to. The truth be told though just like in Archlord(no longer available in the US), Shiaya, Atlantica or some of the other Free to Plays overall the graphics and game play are not really that bad. The toons aren't terrible and the mechanics aren't bad either. They have their drawbacks as all games do but they are still fun. Do they have the player base that WoW does? I am sure not but they do have a player base and they do survie.
Lets face it there are not too many EQ's or WoW's out there and even the big ones will loose appeal over the years no matter how hard they try not too. But they can survie and go on at least until it is not profitable for them to do so.
Gikku
Thx for the answer to my points. I would like to add one or two points tho.
I do not quite understand how a game like WOW is supposed to be only about the buisness model. Thats simply not the case - and games like AOC and WAR has shown that the buisness model alone will not support any game longterm. And as far as content is conserned - Thats just personal opinions if its good or bad. If you measure the actual QUALITY of the content - then WOW would win every single time. Then Im not talking any "language" or graphical quality - but custimor satisfaction. Why do you think games like WAR and AOC have gone down from around 1 million players down to probably 1/10th of that in just over a year ? Its not the buisness model that failed. It was the QUALITY of the game. Both these games are plauged with so many "annoying" factors that ppl just give up. Or become bored to death.
But I will have to agree with the person that said instancing is a potential killer of any game. Let that be a lesson to those games in development atm.
I agree with some points, but disagree with others. To start postitive, the one thing I absolutely agree with is that we need niche games.
Right now I'm as unsatisfied as I've ever been with gaming, and feeling very nastalgic. I think the reason is the old games catered to my niche - fantasy games with good PvP and roleplay. Then along came WoW, and for the following years, along came the WoW clones. So now my old, favorite games are too dated. Their graphics aren't up to par and they're generally ghost towns so I find returning to be depressing. The most modern games are all WoW clones, but I'm tired of WoW, and if I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW.
Now the games of any interest are in development, so I've got to wait for those. But I'm not even entirely thrilled with them. I'm -all for- innovation but I'm finding that said innovation is straying further from my niche. Remember, my favorite games were the classics. As things continue to evolve, there's less and less games for me. At least that I know I like - I'm not crazy over FPS mmos, but maybe some of those will be fun as I haven't much experience with them. I'm keeping an open mind.
I think the MMO genre could do with a few sequels. How about a UO 2, or a DAoC 2, or EQ3? Do them well. Pump lots of money into them, and stick to the classic ideas that made the originals so enjoyable.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I dis agree with you friend. WOW is not the gold standard. There are a lot of people who play it but that doesn't make it the best MMO. That just makes it a very succesful MMO. Its kinda like internet explorer, lots of people use it because thats what they are used to. By no means is it the best just because everyone uses it. WOW being the the best MMO is still an opinion. People need to learn to go into a new MMO with an open mind.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art. For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all. We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies. So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing. If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion. And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art.
I have a bachelor's degree in graphic design from University of Missouri - Kansas City. I have coninued to take adult education classes since then, in assorted art mediums. I was the owner of KC Internet Insights, where I did CD cover, book cover, and product cover design for both physical and virtual products for 5 years, until I became ill, and am now disabled. In my teens and 20s I worked for Missouri Repertory Theater doing set design and construction for their first two seasons at the Helen F. Spencer Center for the Performing Arts. My father is retired from Hallmark Cards where he worked as a professional photographer and card artist for 38 years. My paternal aunt is a professional sculptor named Marrita, who has sold her bronzed sculptures world wide and also sculpted the larger-than-life-size paint horses outside the American Paint Horse Association, among many other things. My maternal aunt Judy is a professional fine artist who works in oils and pastels. My first cousin, Joel, who I grew up with, is now a film editor in Los Angeles. He has also made various documentaries. My sister Allison is also and artist and works in woods and natural arts, handcrafting various items from wood, including pens, sculptures, and fine furnishings. My other aunt (my mother's YOUNGER sister, Marsha, is a jewelry artist and works with metals and naturals, handcrafting jewelry, which she sells both on the internet and from her store in Seattle, Washington. My mother is a professional copy-editor (sadly, I did not inherit her skills with grammar). So....I not only have artistic background myself, but I grew up with artists. My entire family consists of artists involved in various mediums, not only professionally, but they have done these things, as I have, their entire lives. I feel qualified in the sense that I do know a little about art, in various forms. No...we do not have any computer programmers in the family, if that is to be your next question. But I do not think that to appreciate ART....one requires all of this background in art.
For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all.
Where on EARTH you come up with film "not being art at all" is beyond me. I would love to know where YOU learned what is art, and what is not.
We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies.
This seems to agree with the point that I myself made, regarding what the gaming industry sees as their "cream of the crop" and what gamers see as the same. I said myself, that those things DIFFER, and made the comparison to the People's Choice Awards, and the Academy Awards, so that you could better understand. Apparently, you're still not "getting" that.
So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing.
And I take it you don't see special effects as their own type of art? Special effects are not creative because they use a different medium than a paint brush to create them? I still say that your view of what is art, and what is not, is very skewed and simplistic. Film making is indeed an art form, and I would challenge you to assert that it is NOT...to anyone that does it, or to the professionals that judge this very technical art form.
If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
I don't care about your being offensive or even uneducated about art, in it's various forms. What I DO care about is you perpetuating the delusional idea that game design is NOT a form of art, is not creative, does not require absolute creative geniuses to produce or that it should not be held to many of the same "standards" as other forms of creative design in art. Games, just like other forms of art, use color psychology, spatial relationship, and al of the other skills that other art forms use. Everything you SEE in a game, from landscapes to characters, are designed by ARTISTS, hand-rendered LONG before they are computer generated, which I suggest to you, is also a very art in and of itself.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion.
Oh do TELL of what YOUR great experience is as an artist, both professionally and otherwise, so that you can make "lil' ol' me" understand your great knowledge of the arts, because right now, you're failing at that. All I see is someone who is determined that there is no art in the process of game design and implementation, and frankly, you're looking rather silly, at least to me, and quite possibly to everyone reading this thread.
And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
Yes, I suppose that I'm "guessing" that the artists involved in the art direction of games, actually think of themselves as artists. Considering I have spent my entire life around artists, and am an artist myself, I don't think that I'm far off base in "guessing" that. What is YOUR experience that makes you think that game designers and art directors of games do not see themselves as creative artists? I'm just curious here......
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
I never suggested that games consist of NOTHING but art. I DID, however, suggest...that very much like film and other forms of photographic and 3D art forms, games are, as a whole, a type of artistic expression and are artistically designed prior to having the technical aspects added to them....VERY MUCH in the same way as videograpy and film, and other artistic forms of entertainment, including live theater, as one example. You have a very restrictive sense of what is an art form, and what is not. I am open to "normal discussion," but I don't seem to be able to HAVE this discussion with YOU, because you're so interested in putting a restrictive box around something as broadly creative as the artistic process, which leads me to believe that YOU have no artistic inclination nor experience.
Game quality is not something you can judge from only ONE perspective, because games are made of many different functioning parts that work together as a whole. The art direction and design is only ONE part of a whole work. Games also can be judged from the standpoint of playability and the technical aspects of concise or bloated coding and other more technical issues, which....I am not professionally qualified to judge. However, as a gamer, I know what I enjoy and like to play. I know what feels comfortable to play, has smoothness of animation, has comfortably functioning user interfaces, etc. And ALL GAMERS judge those thing in games, by whether they enjoy PLAYING the games, and therefore....by the games on which the INDIVIDUALLY choose to spend their money. Who are YOU to say that a game that 500k people or 11 million people ENJOY is not a quality piece of work? Who are YOU to determine what is a quality game? I want to know WHY you think YOU are more qualified than any OTHER gamer to say that "World of Warcraft is not a quality game," or that "Aion is not a quality game," or that "Everquest is not a quality game?" YOU can only determine what is good....to YOU. And THAT.....was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of my entire conversation with you, aside from saying that game design, is an art form.
I think it is YOU that is being hard headed and unable to have a discussion, because you think that the people that spend their money to PLAY these games are so entirely ignorant that they cannot say what, to THEM, is a good game, and what is not. It's not up to YOU to decide that for another person, regardless of what YOU THINK something is "quality" or not....in the exact same sense that some people like Picasso and others like Renoir. You're not qualified (no one is) to determine what another person sees as quality. But the people in the industry who design the games.....perhaps THEY are qualified to judge the technical work of their peers, which is WHY I linked to the Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences. Now why are you so damn determined to argue about it all? I don't understand your vehemence in arguing that game design is not an art form. It's not only misinformed, it's a very STRANGE thing to argue about.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I really do not like to be one to tell you this but games are entertainment not ART.
WHAAAT???!!!! ROFLMAO! Oh...sorry....let me compose myself here.
So.....are films art? Are they not ALSO entertainment? I think perhaps you need to study what goes into making a film, a game, a painting, a photograph, a sculpture. I don't think you understand art.
Games are only using art in themselves but they themselves are not ART. If you look at games as an art then cars are art as well, heck everything is art then but it is not. And quality does not have to do anthing with people who pays for it with their wallets. If you want to look that way then WOW is most artistic game ever cause 10 million people are paying for it.
I think I already explained this to you....if you want to know what the gaming INDUSTRY considers "worthy," check the site I linked above where games are judged by those that MAKE them.
And my post was about core essence of quality, but have not really refered to that, you got lost. I said how 2 people can discuss about quality if they do not know basic theory of that matter, like for example color theory, design theory, sound theory or anything else I can not think of at this moment. If you want to discuss something deep as quality of certain matter then be prepared to have some arguments and knowledge not just say it sucks, I do not like it.
And this is why I referred you to the gaming industry leaders and to how THEY judge the games. They indeed DO know what goes into making games. Interestingly enough....I think you'll find World of Warcraft listed a couple of times, as well as some other games that might surprise YOU. As a matter of fact, World of Warcraft (and several other surprising games, that YOU probably don't LIKE, are very high in QUALITY, according to the people that DO know quality.) You fail at your own argument here.
And yes motion picture, it has to be different, people choice and academy choice, cause people do not posses knowledge about most of things about movies so they tend to disagree on academy awards, but if you really ask someone to elabore you why X movie got reward for X thing, someone who is actually educated in that field, I am sure he would be able to do it.
*Refer back AGAIN to my link to people who DO know gaming.*
So as I said we can not discuss about quality if we are not on the same educated level. For you quality could be fun, for me music in game, for someone else it can ge graphic design and for someone else level design, but are we taking all of thouse things into assumption when we judge something? Do we ask ourselves if we posses enought knowledge to be judges at a first place?
Who do YOU think is qualified to judge a game's quality? I'm really curious as to your answer.Wow....I just can't repeat myself any more. *sigh* You just turned right around and tried to disagree with me by saying the exact same things I was saying with the only change being that you don't think games are art. I think there are a lot of game designers that will WILDLY disagree with you. Games are art....AND MORE. Games are art, and entertainment, and technology, all rolled into one. And, like I said....gamers "vote" with their wallets, like the People's Choice awards. The industry uses different standards entirely, because they truly know what it takes to MAKE a game. Why don't you go tell those people that what they do isn't art.
LOL! I'm dying to see how that conversation goes for you. By the way....they call their OWN academy of judges, the "Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences." Note the word "art" in there? Hmmm......
Hm, in order to continue this conversation in any civilised manner and not just attacking me I would like to know what education about art you posses to so openly discuss about art.
I have a bachelor's degree in graphic design from University of Missouri - Kansas City. I have coninued to take adult education classes since then, in assorted art mediums. I was the owner of KC Internet Insights, where I did CD cover, book cover, and product cover design for both physical and virtual products for 5 years, until I became ill, and am now disabled. In my teens and 20s I worked for Missouri Repertory Theater doing set design and construction for their first two seasons at the Helen F. Spencer Center for the Performing Arts. My father is retired from Hallmark Cards where he worked as a professional photographer and card artist for 38 years. My paternal aunt is a professional sculptor named Marrita, who has sold her bronzed sculptures world wide and also sculpted the larger-than-life-size paint horses outside the American Paint Horse Association, among many other things. My maternal aunt Judy is a professional fine artist who works in oils and pastels. My first cousin, Joel, who I grew up with, is now a film editor in Los Angeles. He has also made various documentaries. My sister Allison is also and artist and works in woods and natural arts, handcrafting various items from wood, including pens, sculptures, and fine furnishings. My other aunt (my mother's YOUNGER sister, Marsha, is a jewelry artist and works with metals and naturals, handcrafting jewelry, which she sells both on the internet and from her store in Seattle, Washington. My mother is a professional copy-editor (sadly, I did not inherit her skills with grammar). So....I not only have artistic background myself, but I grew up with artists. My entire family consists of artists involved in various mediums, not only professionally, but they have done these things, as I have, their entire lives. I feel qualified in the sense that I do know a little about art, in various forms. No...we do not have any computer programmers in the family, if that is to be your next question. But I do not think that to appreciate ART....one requires all of this background in art.
For your info, I like WOW, as a matter of fact I am subscribed to it, so do not draw conclusions based on your instinct. Movies have been trought wery rought times to be considered art in first place and in the end they turned not to be art at all.
Where on EARTH you come up with film "not being art at all" is beyond me. I would love to know where YOU learned what is art, and what is not.
We have today entertainment movies and artistic movies, you can check some other rewards like cannes festival if you want to discuss about art of the movies, you will see there are no block busters there which are not artistic movies.
This seems to agree with the point that I myself made, regarding what the gaming industry sees as their "cream of the crop" and what gamers see as the same. I said myself, that those things DIFFER, and made the comparison to the People's Choice Awards, and the Academy Awards, so that you could better understand. Apparently, you're still not "getting" that.
So are movies art? Not anymore, not in general, we have only some artistic movies, but movie making as an art has died with large expansion of special effects, as is music with electonic composing.
And I take it you don't see special effects as their own type of art? Special effects are not creative because they use a different medium than a paint brush to create them? I still say that your view of what is art, and what is not, is very skewed and simplistic. Film making is indeed an art form, and I would challenge you to assert that it is NOT...to anyone that does it, or to the professionals that judge this very technical art form.
If you consider games widely as art than I guess like I said everything is art, but artistic form as itself is very well defined. You are talking nonsense here, accusing me that I do not know or undesrstand art, but it seems that it is you who are not aware of true art. Your impulsive attitude suggest that I have provoked you somehow, I did not mean to offend anyone and if I have done so, I appologise.
I don't care about your being offensive or even uneducated about art, in it's various forms. What I DO care about is you perpetuating the delusional idea that game design is NOT a form of art, is not creative, does not require absolute creative geniuses to produce or that it should not be held to many of the same "standards" as other forms of creative design in art. Games, just like other forms of art, use color psychology, spatial relationship, and al of the other skills that other art forms use. Everything you SEE in a game, from landscapes to characters, are designed by ARTISTS, hand-rendered LONG before they are computer generated, which I suggest to you, is also a very art in and of itself.
But going around and defining everything as an art is just plain stupid. Perhaps you should learn something about art theory before you go into this kind of discussion.
Oh do TELL of what YOUR great experience is as an artist, both professionally and otherwise, so that you can make "lil' ol' me" understand your great knowledge of the arts, because right now, you're failing at that. All I see is someone who is determined that there is no art in the process of game design and implementation, and frankly, you're looking rather silly, at least to me, and quite possibly to everyone reading this thread.
And if you ask game developers, people that make games, you will be suprised as how many of them would refer to themselves as operaters not artists. It is like you said, it is industry not artist unity, the sentence itself is enought to point that there is no art there. And when we at this subject, have you acctualy spoken with someone who is working in game industry or you are just guessing what they think of themselves?
Yes, I suppose that I'm "guessing" that the artists involved in the art direction of games, actually think of themselves as artists. Considering I have spent my entire life around artists, and am an artist myself, I don't think that I'm far off base in "guessing" that. What is YOUR experience that makes you think that game designers and art directors of games do not see themselves as creative artists? I'm just curious here......
As for quetion who do I think is qualified to judge game quality, my answer would be as always qualified artists. But are you asking me who is qualified to judge game quality as game itself or its different perspectives? Do we judge playabillity of game, which is no way art form, or we judge different aspects of game components. Please define your thoughts before asking anything and please do not go around laugtning in other people faces, it shows you are not strong minded and open for normal discussion.
I never suggested that games consist of NOTHING but art. I DID, however, suggest...that very much like film and other forms of photographic and 3D art forms, games are, as a whole, a type of artistic expression and are artistically designed prior to having the technical aspects added to them....VERY MUCH in the same way as videograpy and film, and other artistic forms of entertainment, including live theater, as one example. You have a very restrictive sense of what is an art form, and what is not. I am open to "normal discussion," but I don't seem to be able to HAVE this discussion with YOU, because you're so interested in putting a restrictive box around something as broadly creative as the artistic process, which leads me to believe that YOU have no artistic inclination nor experience.
Game quality is not something you can judge from only ONE perspective, because games are made of many different functioning parts that work together as a whole. The art direction and design is only ONE part of a whole work. Games also can be judged from the standpoint of playability and the technical aspects of concise or bloated coding and other more technical issues, which....I am not professionally qualified to judge. However, as a gamer, I know what I enjoy and like to play. I know what feels comfortable to play, has smoothness of animation, has comfortably functioning user interfaces, etc. And ALL GAMERS judge those thing in games, by whether they enjoy PLAYING the games, and therefore....by the games on which the INDIVIDUALLY choose to spend their money. Who are YOU to say that a game that 500k people or 11 million people ENJOY is not a quality piece of work? Who are YOU to determine what is a quality game? I want to know WHY you think YOU are more qualified than any OTHER gamer to say that "World of Warcraft is not a quality game," or that "Aion is not a quality game," or that "Everquest is not a quality game?" YOU can only determine what is good....to YOU. And THAT.....was the WHOLE DAMN POINT of my entire conversation with you, aside from saying that game design, is an art form.
I think it is YOU that is being hard headed and unable to have a discussion, because you think that the people that spend their money to PLAY these games are so entirely ignorant that they cannot say what, to THEM, is a good game, and what is not. It's not up to YOU to decide that for another person, regardless of what YOU THINK something is "quality" or not....in the exact same sense that some people like Picasso and others like Renoir. You're not qualified (no one is) to determine what another person sees as quality. But the people in the industry who design the games.....perhaps THEY are qualified to judge the technical work of their peers, which is WHY I linked to the Academy of Interactive ARTS and Sciences. Now why are you so damn determined to argue about it all? I don't understand your vehemence in arguing that game design is not an art form. It's not only misinformed, it's a very STRANGE thing to argue about.
I wonder why do you keep attacking all the time? Why are you so egocentric? Is it becouse you can not do stuff you want or wish? I also have bechelor degree, it is in design as well, but you seem to mistake art and design, very common mistake among people I must say. About my qualifications, I do not really want to go around yelling what I have done, I will just say I do work in game industry and I do know production pipeline and have many friends in big commpanies, but that is relevant. It is obvious that our points of art views are quite different, myself for example can think only of couple artists trought earths history like Da Vinci, Van Gogh or Dali, to think that any one works in special effect field can be compared to them (my field of work by the way) is just pure egocentric crap.
True artist have shared their art with the world freely, non selfishly, all of todays "artist" only are interesed in money. And today we have a ton of instutes and groups calling themselves artist, but are they indeed artist? I know a ton of so called artists, self proclaimed and self thought. Any one of them does not know color or compossition theory, and they run around making so called art. So my question really is: IS everything we see around us STILL art? I agree games WERE art once, but as movies they are turning into something else, something commercial, plain, simple, without form, withour artists touch, is new star trek artistic movi? Are transformers 2 artistic movie? sorry but that is not an art to me, and it should not be to anyone who claims to know about art. Will they become once again art, I hope so, I enjoy in good art, I like classic music, classic movies (artistic ones), old games which were artistic more that games today but sadly all of art is beign raped today and is getting commercialised, sad but thrue.
Now I will apologise once more time if I have offended you, cause simply I can not understand your agression toward me, maybe we have different understanding of things, maybe I got lost, but just maybe so have you. I do not want to make enemys, I want to make friends.
Please learn how to delete redundant quotes from your posts if you must quote other people.
Developers respond to the market, the market is generally too dumb to see beyond a label, this is why Nike & Coca Cola sell, because it is a label everyone knows and is either considered trustworthy or fashionable.
World of Warcraft is such a label, people either trust it or believe it is fashionable (peer pressure).
This is not going to change, this is never going to change, this is the height of capitalism.
Accept this and you will be fine, there are plenty of different MMOs out there.
Pretty spirited thread here, but I think that both of you are somewhat guilty of forgetting something which pertains to all art.
The gray area of the creator's intention. Games can easily be art but, it depends on what the developers intentions are for the user experience.
Personally I think that there is so much debate here over what qualifies a game as art that you could cover you bases by saying game are art (see Final Fantasy7, Braid, Linger in Shadows), but that games are poor representations of that idea (Dynasty Warriors).
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I agree - there should be different measuring sticks. You brought up DDO. It's a great example of an MMO that should be judged not by WoW, but by pen and paper D&D, which was the goal of the system. The 'rest shrines' are a perfect example of why DDO fails on both sets of measuring sticks. No WoW player likes them, and D&D players think they're stupid, too.
Yes I believe you are right, I have putted that out from my mind, thank you for reminding me. I am just so sad that today more and more games are commercial projects. Seldom in thesse days people express themselves trought game. I believe and hope that indy market will change that.
The article title Player Perspective: The Stale Comparison .
I am not sure how art came into play on this. Art is art whether in a game, a painting or even in films. There is an art to developing a game. film, painting or even writing.
The Stale Comparison that we all do is not limited to game as was an example of a fast food and a restaurant. As flawed humans that follow what we have seen or done with what we experience tend to compare something new with something we have become familiar with and know.
Is it fair? Probably not but it is human nature. If we like something and try something new we will compare it to something we are familar with. As someone stated. Some games like some products have made a name for themselves and that name is what people come to know.
It is also true that you will find similarities in many games with games like EQ and WoW. It is hard not to see or find such things. I would imagine developing any game there will be things no matter how hard they try not to will be similar maybe even appear the same.
Gikku
I actually like the rest shrine system, thanks for being the vocal minority, hows Ebberon Unlimited treating you? Did you get off of korthos yet, or are you wondering why your 1rogue 1cleric 1 pally isnt lasting as long as a 2monk (see I can make judgements without knowing the person or people I'm attacking also!)
They're there for a reason, if mana/health regen was as rapid in WoW the instances would be more of a cakewalk then Ulduar (zing)
And if Turbine didn't adapt the PnP rules of D&D to an MMORPG setting, then the instances would barely be completed and DDO would be empty 2 weeks post release.
If they really judged it by PnP D&D you would hate it even more, no mana/health regen in dungeons, hell no mana, all your spells and abilites are reduced to x per day type abilities, which only reset in taverns (rest shrines are basicly mini taverns used to swap spells reset per day abilities and heal, since there would be no mana in a PnP online D&D. There would be one consistant attack speed, And IIRC D&D has friendly fire, exp loss, and takes a hell of a lot longer to level, considering your DM doesn't put a 26 red dragon with 1 hp inside a dungeon.
tl;dr version : They cut you a lot of slack in DDO, if you want to judge it by something, think of NwN, from a devs standpoint its like giving escargo to the french and then giving american suburbia the same dish. Different audience, different reaction.
Everything deserves a topic but I don't often see this as a really big problem in mmo's I've rarely heard anyone saying something should be more like wow, maybe it's because by habit I turn off newbie zone chat especially around a launch but I just don't see it. I do see lot's of games implimenting systems similar to those of WOW but that is business beleive it or not the investors are not always as pasisionate as we are and sometimes will push for things that may be in wow because ultimately they win if the game pulls inwow numbers. But having said that again nothing short of WOW lore is an original concept it has mostly all been there before, often I hear these systems eluded to as original to mmo's but again the basic design of mmo's have been around since the console days.
I think what people underestimate about WOW is the fact that you can probably play it on an ATARI 2600 until WOW there weren't alot of mmo's that could say this I know because I was one of those people, my pc was not a big concern as a console gamer so the first game I was ever able to get to work was WOW and I was hooked, it opened me to the idea of subscription based mmo's and I then upgraded and moved on but the average person is going to stay casual they are not going to search specifically at times for a more complex or deep or role play friendly experience.
Ultimately the industry will change as it must as all things must in this day and age and that is gradually there is not much left to invent only expand upon. In ten years time I hope to see a game that is built in total of game systems not used in any game today but will most likely be built of systems that have been used as early as starting say next year even.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
What a well-written article! This is so very true, I believe that this is where the whole "Go back to WoW!" phrase originated from of course. I don't see why people would use World of Warcraft as a measuring stick, I mean it is truly the dynamo of MMORPGs, judging by subscribers not opinion, but there is much more potential out there. There will, someday, be a game that rises above WoW and becomes a measuring stick itself, until that day we'll just have to stick to our favorites and put up with the fact that there is nothing that we can do, individually, about how popular a game becomes. (I mean, if someone likes it, they like it.) I hope to someday make that game, the one that rises above the rest, myself.
Though I do indeed think that there should not be a measuring stick for MMOs but rather people need to pick the one that is most fun (yes, fun) to them. Fun is something many gamers forget.
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