Gruug, you are mistaken. F2P has benefitted a LOT of people, including me. I've gotten 100s of hours of entertainment from them. While I also enjoy P2P, I welcome any game that I can play without having to commit $50 to play it. Sure, some of the F2P games are junk, but so are some of the P2P. At least with the F2P ones, all you've wasted is some of your time. F2P are ideal for casual players that only play occasionally and can't justify the cost of a subscription.
No matter how you try to spin it, nothing is free forever. So, let's talk the truth about how much you have spent in MT's or cash shops? I know plenty of people who have played the so called F2P plan with many a game and will not touch them now. I refuse to play them and nothing is free. So go ahead, humor me and be honest if you dare and tell us how much you spent so far. I guarantee a monthly sub fee is a whole lot cheaper. Not to mention if you cannot afford a mere 50 cents a day for gaming in the MMO world then go find a new hobby.
Many of us seasoned gamers used to pay $10-$12.00 an hour to play MUDS on BBS systems 25 fucking years ago. It makes me laugh at people that complain about 5o cents a day.
Who cares about "forever"? I have played a bit of DDO and so far i have paid NOTHING. I am not opposed to pay somethign but I am NOT playing fast enough to spend $15 a month. In fact, that is the primary reason why I do NOT sub to DDO because it is NOT my main game.
Plus, i expect to play something new soon if there is more F2P MMOs. I have tried a few and so far all of them are FREE to me (except my main game, which is WOW). Now $15 a month is not a lot of money, but i won't pay it for a game that i only play may be a couple of hours a month.
Plus, it is not about whether i can afford it, but why pay more if it is free?
Sure, i may be free-riding on someone else but it is certainly free (or at least low cost) to me.
I am NO fan of F2P. When this economic model began to creep into NA, I was appalled and irate. And I still prefer P2P. That being said, I think the only way the western market will accept a microtransaction model is the example set by DDO Unlimited and Wizard 101; paying to open up new areas and content. I don't think we accept anyone paying for items that others have to work for. But paying to open a new dungeon, or region, or storyline, might just be acceptable to us. I have speculated for a long time that SW:TOR may go this route. Just a hunch. Anyone agree? Disagree?
I sure hope SWTOR does NOT go that route. I have no intention on playing a F2P game or pay a subscription so that someone else can do the same a la DDO. It is a said state of the gaming world when we the gamer are being duped into thinking that this so-called F2P model will be "good" for us. There is just not anything about that benefits the gamer. It does, if we are so duped, fully benefit the game companies. Now, I am not about being against game companies. I am about expecting the most quality and entertainment for the gaming dollars that I spend. Hence, F2P can in no way be a good thing.
The F2P model ALREADY benefits me. I wouldn't be playing DDO if it is a subbed game because i just don't have time to really play a second MMO (and while $15 a month is no biggie, i am also against paying if i am not really playing).
Now it is a nice second MMO that i can play a little and if i want more adventure, i can buy a pack. The nicest thing is that i don't have to play "seriously" to get my money worth. I don't know if Turbine can make enough off this model, but it certainly benefits ME.
And i surely hope that SWTOR is going that route. More f2p MMOs means that i can sample, and play multiple MMOs at the same time.
Apparently you missed it or do not understand my point. I, me, do not wish to PAY for YOUR playtime. If I, me, am paying the subscription for YOU to play for free it only benefits YOU and not ME. I already support too many other people to have to now be expected to support free loaders like YOU. Good day.
Gruug, you are mistaken. F2P has benefitted a LOT of people, including me. I've gotten 100s of hours of entertainment from them. While I also enjoy P2P, I welcome any game that I can play without having to commit $50 to play it. Sure, some of the F2P games are junk, but so are some of the P2P. At least with the F2P ones, all you've wasted is some of your time. F2P are ideal for casual players that only play occasionally and can't justify the cost of a subscription.
No matter how you try to spin it, nothing is free forever. So, let's talk the truth about how much you have spent in MT's or cash shops? I know plenty of people who have played the so called F2P plan with many a game and will not touch them now. I refuse to play them and nothing is free. So go ahead, humor me and be honest if you dare and tell us how much you spent so far. I guarantee a monthly sub fee is a whole lot cheaper. Not to mention if you cannot afford a mere 50 cents a day for gaming in the MMO world then go find a new hobby.
Many of us seasoned gamers used to pay $10-$12.00 an hour to play MUDS on BBS systems 25 fucking years ago. It makes me laugh at people that complain about 5o cents a day.
You want the truth about how much I've spent on F2P games to date? The truth is about $5 in the last 3 years. This compares to $100s spent on P2P games. I also remember playing MUDs for years, Mainly NannyMUD, which is one of the few old ones still around (I also developed several quests and a guild there in LPC). My early gaming experience goes back to playing adventure games (written in Fortran and PL/1) on a DG minicomputer in the 1970s.
It's interesting to me that we keep bringing up DDO as an example of a "good" MMO that uses (now) F2P.
I played that game through Beta, and long enough afterwards to reach max level (ten at that time) with my fighter and my rogue.
My then guild and I were the first ones on any server (to our knowledge) to perfect the Thranaal speed runs (we did it in under 2 minutes for hours at a time. Fun stuff till they nerfed it).
Later, I came back to the game, and attempted to level again, but the game had lost me. It wasn't that I was simply burned out on the quests because I farmed the living hell out of them. It was that there was NOTHING else to do in that game but the instances, and the rewards for the work were utter crap.
The armor was awful looking. The character models were atrocious and impossible to customize. The music was just the worst stuff ever PERIOD. The textures were dissapointingly bland... and worst of all, all the D&D lore you would have expected to find in ANY D&D setting was simply absent. Sure, you got to roam around and see stuff in Stormreach, but you didn't get to really experience ANYTHING that made Eberron what it was in the books.
It wasn't that people were paying for the game that drove them away. It was that they were paying for THAT game. The only thing I honestly look back on fondly in that game is the traps system and how that made each dungeon truly seem like a unique experience AT FIRST. Even that they fell flat on though, as the traps became very predictable, and the things that could kill you most easily were still death ray and petrification. Two very specific spells that can only be countered by two very specific spells...
So they yanked the ability to be innovative right out of the players' hands. Hell, in the beggining, skills were easily swappable, and rogues could be spellcasters practically. But, bad dicision after bad dicision pigeonholed every single character into a specific class. D&D was never about min/maxing (unless you are a player who plays by him/herself) so much as it was about having fun with your character, and using the cards in your deck to the best of your ability. (By way of example, one of my most "powerful" sorcerer characters ever was a human named Goblin who made liberal use of "Open-Close" on armor straps, shoelaces, weapon belts, and coin purses. Where is even 1/2 that kind of innovation in DDO?)
Add on top of that a slip-shod magic system (innovative in that no one else had tried it, but boring in that you are still spamming a button until you are out of spell power/casts for that spell), horrible movement mechanics, and almost no interaction with the world around you(and certainly not on any scale that equates to it being a D&D universe), and BOOM! You have THE REASON why DDO FAILED MISERABLY to attract enough players to the game to make a P2P model worthwhile.
It didn't fail because it was pay to play. It failed because, quite frankly, the game sucked. We MMO fans dance around that conclusion too much because the game(whatever game we are talking about) offers us a few small moments of enjoyment, so we gloss over the HOURS of BOREDOM and FRUSTRATION they also cause.
DDO isn't really a good example of anything except of how a company can be very much unwilling to let a failed product just drop. The game far from breaks the mold of "F2P = Subpar gaming experience." In fact, it just drags it out more.
[Begin Sarcasm]
Girls don't use the internet unless theres a webcam involved....its a physical impossibility.
They also don't play them thar vidya gaymes, mmorpg = most men online role play girls...even in ventrillo.
I am NO fan of F2P. When this economic model began to creep into NA, I was appalled and irate. And I still prefer P2P. That being said, I think the only way the western market will accept a microtransaction model is the example set by DDO Unlimited and Wizard 101; paying to open up new areas and content. I don't think we accept anyone paying for items that others have to work for. But paying to open a new dungeon, or region, or storyline, might just be acceptable to us. I have speculated for a long time that SW:TOR may go this route. Just a hunch. Anyone agree? Disagree?
I sure hope SWTOR does NOT go that route. I have no intention on playing a F2P game or pay a subscription so that someone else can do the same a la DDO. It is a said state of the gaming world when we the gamer are being duped into thinking that this so-called F2P model will be "good" for us. There is just not anything about that benefits the gamer. It does, if we are so duped, fully benefit the game companies. Now, I am not about being against game companies. I am about expecting the most quality and entertainment for the gaming dollars that I spend. Hence, F2P can in no way be a good thing.
The F2P model ALREADY benefits me. I wouldn't be playing DDO if it is a subbed game because i just don't have time to really play a second MMO (and while $15 a month is no biggie, i am also against paying if i am not really playing).
Now it is a nice second MMO that i can play a little and if i want more adventure, i can buy a pack. The nicest thing is that i don't have to play "seriously" to get my money worth. I don't know if Turbine can make enough off this model, but it certainly benefits ME.
And i surely hope that SWTOR is going that route. More f2p MMOs means that i can sample, and play multiple MMOs at the same time.
Apparently you missed it or do not understand my point. I, me, do not wish to PAY for YOUR playtime. If I, me, am paying the subscription for YOU to play for free it only benefits YOU and not ME. I already support too many other people to have to now be expected to support free loaders like YOU. Good day.
Sure. Then just do NOT spend money on the f2p games. There are plenty of others I can free ride on although i am curious why you don't just play the game for free, or spend just small amount of money.
It is a free world. The companies can charge (or not charge) their customers as they see fit. And you have the choice of whether to play or not.
It's interesting to me that we keep bringing up DDO as an example of a "good" MMO that uses (now) F2P. I played that game through Beta, and long enough afterwards to reach max level (ten at that time) with my fighter and my rogue. My then guild and I were the first ones on any server (to our knowledge) to perfect the Thranaal speed runs (we did it in under 2 minutes for hours at a time. Fun stuff till they nerfed it). Later, I came back to the game, and attempted to level again, but the game had lost me. It wasn't that I was simply burned out on the quests because I farmed the living hell out of them. It was that there was NOTHING else to do in that game but the instances, and the rewards for the work were utter crap. The armor was awful looking. The character models were atrocious and impossible to customize. The music was just the worst stuff ever PERIOD. The textures were dissapointingly bland... and worst of all, all the D&D lore you would have expected to find in ANY D&D setting was simply absent. Sure, you got to roam around and see stuff in Stormreach, but you didn't get to really experience ANYTHING that made Eberron what it was in the books. It wasn't that people were paying for the game that drove them away. It was that they were paying for THAT game. The only thing I honestly look back on fondly in that game is the traps system and how that made each dungeon truly seem like a unique experience AT FIRST. Even that they fell flat on though, as the traps became very predictable, and the things that could kill you most easily were still death ray and petrification. Two very specific spells that can only be countered by two very specific spells... So they yanked the ability to be innovative right out of the players' hands. Hell, in the beggining, skills were easily swappable, and rogues could be spellcasters practically. But, bad dicision after bad dicision pigeonholed every single character into a specific class. D&D was never about min/maxing (unless you are a player who plays by him/herself) so much as it was about having fun with your character, and using the cards in your deck to the best of your ability. (By way of example, one of my most "powerful" sorcerer characters ever was a human named Goblin who made liberal use of "Open-Close" on armor straps, shoelaces, weapon belts, and coin purses. Where is even 1/2 that kind of innovation in DDO?) Add on top of that a slip-shod magic system (innovative in that no one else had tried it, but boring in that you are still spamming a button until you are out of spell power/casts for that spell), horrible movement mechanics, and almost no interaction with the world around you(and certainly not on any scale that equates to it being a D&D universe), and BOOM! You have THE REASON why DDO FAILED MISERABLY to attract enough players to the game to make a P2P model worthwhile. It didn't fail because it was pay to play. It failed because, quite frankly, the game sucked. We MMO fans dance around that conclusion too much because the game(whatever game we are talking about) offers us a few small moments of enjoyment, so we gloss over the HOURS of BOREDOM and FRUSTRATION they also cause. DDO isn't really a good example of anything except of how a company can be very much unwilling to let a failed product just drop. The game far from breaks the mold of "F2P = Subpar gaming experience." In fact, it just drags it out more.
The flaw in your argument is that failure is 0 or 1. If DDO can make *some* money going f2p, there is no point not to do it.
And sure DDO may be subpar, but there is always a value-price trade-off. People DO buy/play cheaper budget games. For people who cannot afford (or do not want to pay for) premium more expenisve games, this may be a good option.
For example, I don't think DDO is as good as WOW, so i won't switch my wow sub to DDO. Even I can afford two subscriptions, i am NOT going to since i am going to play DDO a little bit. This free model allows me to have SOME variation in my MMO experiences and it is a good thing. Even you play DDO to some extent. Now I can do it because the price is right. There is value in that.
I see dozens of f2p games--they aren't really free to play, if you want any of the things a subscription game allows you to acquire by just playing. If the U.S. market ever tries to switch to this type of game fees--I'll just not play them anymore. I am amazed that anyone would fall for this kind of setup!! I can just imagine the kind of money players actually WASTE each month buying items in the game for REAL money, lol.
"Sure. Then just do NOT spend money on the f2p games. There are plenty of others I can free ride on although i am curious why you don't just play the game for free, or spend just small amount of money.
It is a free world. The companies can charge (or not charge) their customers as they see fit. And you have the choice of whether to play or not."
I agree. Though I don't think it's a free world, and everyone has to answer to their actions. So while they may have the choice to do one or the other, they have consequences for those choices.
"The flaw in your argument is that failure is 0 or 1. If DDO can make *some* money going f2p, there is no point not to do it.
And sure DDO may be subpar, but there is always a value-price trade-off. People DO buy/play cheaper budget games. For people who cannot afford (or do not want to pay for) premium more expenisve games, this may be a good option.
For example, I don't think DDO is as good as WOW, so i won't switch my wow sub to DDO. Even I can afford two subscriptions, i am NOT going to since i am going to play DDO a little bit. This free model allows me to have SOME variation in my MMO experiences and it is a good thing. Even you play DDO to some extent. Now I can do it because the price is right. There is value in that."
I agree, from a developer point of view, that "failure" is a very VERY vague term. But from a purely objective point of view, as someone who's only bias in this matter is that they like to play videogames (and therefore doesn't have to be conviced to try videogames as a whole) how would you compel them to play DDO?
The only real appeal is that the game is free. But so is NOT playing the game. So we must base the merits of whether the game is worth playing on the gameplay itself, and the features found therein.
Voice chat built into the game. Trap systems and instanced content. The ability to group with friends.... story-driven (to a point) content...
And really it ends there. Still, the game falls short. With the exception of the voice chat built into the game, the other "features" simply do not add up to an experience that is marketable. Making the game free didn't change the value of the gameplay, it simply lowered the cost of it to the consumer.
The most un-biased player will ultimately look at DDO and think about trying it out. But what about it would truly convince them to stick with it? What makes the game worth their time, which is not refundable?
It is friends who play the game (any game really) that will attract other friends to play that game. That and "shiney features" which include, but are not limited to, addictive and fulfilling gameplay.
DDO does not boast enough players to be able to claim enough of a community to really draw in a substatial new crowd. It has enough to keep the current players playing. While this is not the fault directly of the game itself, it is a byproduct of the gameplay, not the pricing model.
The shiney features that the game has are what are what really attract players to the game. This game simply lacks them. Almost entirely, which is a true shame. I USED to play this game, and I remember my high hopes as I rode the longboat into the bay at Stormreach on my first character. I remember trying to temper them with my experience with other MMOs, but this was, of course, D&D. The grandfather of all things nerdy (tolkien being the great grandfather). So I was addicted enough to get to the end game and realize that the game was unfinished. It was incomplete.
I am all for this model of F2P and pay for the modules/expansions. This is why I play guildwars still from time to time. But based solely on the merits of the gameplay itself, this game is simply awful. In my opinion.
It does the F2P argument more harm than good to tout this game as a mascot of "success" for the model. Long winded as it is, that's my point.
[Begin Sarcasm]
Girls don't use the internet unless theres a webcam involved....its a physical impossibility.
They also don't play them thar vidya gaymes, mmorpg = most men online role play girls...even in ventrillo.
Kusanoha, you may consider DDO to be "awful", but I've seen a lot of games that I consider worse. I agree that there are lots of deficiencies in it, but I haven't found any game yet that has everything I look for in a game. So rather than focus on what I don't like about DDO, I enjoy the things I do like and have fun.
When any game like DDO stops being fun, I move on to play something different, but I see no reason to stop playing while I'm still enjoying it just because I might get tired of it in another 2 months instead of the 4 months it might take if it was a better game.
I see dozens of f2p games--they aren't really free to play, if you want any of the things a subscription game allows you to acquire by just playing. If the U.S. market ever tries to switch to this type of game fees--I'll just not play them anymore. I am amazed that anyone would fall for this kind of setup!! I can just imagine the kind of money players actually WASTE each month buying items in the game for REAL money, lol.
I have no problem what so ever supporting a game I enjoy. I make it a point of purchasing some cash shop items, if I enjoy the game. That is after all, the way that the Dev's make money from their efforts. One does have to be careful, because its all too easy to spend more than one is expecting, but thats a matter of awareness and self discipline.
EA is all about numbers. Battlefield: Heroes is nothing more than a social test about how profitable of a venture it can be, as they have had their item mall up, running and fully functional during their beta stages. With their last massive patch that alienated a big part of the testers, they failed to care about informing anyone any notice about the changes made, but on the other hand their first priority was to INFORM IN DETAIL on everyones character screens with STEP BY STEP instructions to purchase their currency to buy specialty items.
End all... the potential is there. People do buy the ingame stuff, even though it's now in an "open beta" status and could be yanked at a moments notice. Overall I forsee EA going full blown with the idea and pioneering it in the West. If people are willing to buy items for games that are considered still in a "beta state", then to me that gives the thumbs-up for EA to further exploit the idea.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Possibly just possibly EA looked at the F2P numbers and did not like what they see. Considering this article is pure F2P favouritism and wishful thinking on Mr Aihoshi’s part, it is hardly surprising he wonders why EA has not taken up the joys of F2P.
I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers.
WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so.
EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money.
No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top.
To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money.
I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers. WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so. EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money. No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top. To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money. That is the key to success.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*. Damn few suits are going to make the decision to authorize investing that type of money, over the time required to achieve it. Shareholders/investors are VERY short sighted. What have you done to "improve shareholder value" this *quarter* is ALL they care about.
Suits know this reality, and they aren't going to take the personal career risks required. So they stick to what has worked in the past. Without real understanding of why it worked, and how the target audience may have changed over time. Which explains the base line reception many of these new games have received. But since the suits can pass the blame on to the Dev's or the players, they don't have to take personal responsibility for it, and bottom line thats all they care about. But this is creating a feed back loop that is damaging players perceptions of the industry itself. Unless something is done to break that cycle, Bad Things(tm) could be on the horizon for the MMO industry.
I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers. WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so. EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money. No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top. To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money. That is the key to success.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*.
Risk is an integral part of the business world. MMO companies have been trying to avoid it, and they fail. Only the ones to actually step up to the plate and take that risk will even have a shot at succeeding. And ALL F2P games are by definition risk-adverse. Therefore, they are bound to fail, or at the very best create nothing better than mediocrity. And being an adult who recognizes the precious nature of time, I refuse to waste it on mediocrity.
I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers. WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so. EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money. No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top. To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money. That is the key to success.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*.
Risk is an integral part of the business world. MMO companies have been trying to avoid it, and they fail. Only the ones to actually step up to the plate and take that risk will even have a shot at succeeding. And ALL F2P games are by definition risk-adverse. Therefore, they are bound to fail, or at the very best create nothing better than mediocrity. And being an adult who recognizes the precious nature of time, I refuse to waste it on mediocrity.
Hell, if you are concerned about wasting time, you should find another hobby other than MMO games. I quite agree that risk is not only part of business, but just about any human activity. The cult of the risk adverse isn't limited to strictly America. It has followers in just about all fields and countries. Far too many people do not understand risk management, and can not make a cost/benefit analysis for doing that management. Its all too directly personal to them. That is how we end up with so many failures and the luke warm "successes" that we've seen. Timid investors/shareholders who focus only on this *quarters* activity, are only one of the factors that drive that nasty feed back spiral. Unless or until people start taking some risks, we will continue to see the same warmed over pap that is all too common these days.
Comments
No matter how you try to spin it, nothing is free forever. So, let's talk the truth about how much you have spent in MT's or cash shops? I know plenty of people who have played the so called F2P plan with many a game and will not touch them now. I refuse to play them and nothing is free. So go ahead, humor me and be honest if you dare and tell us how much you spent so far. I guarantee a monthly sub fee is a whole lot cheaper. Not to mention if you cannot afford a mere 50 cents a day for gaming in the MMO world then go find a new hobby.
Many of us seasoned gamers used to pay $10-$12.00 an hour to play MUDS on BBS systems 25 fucking years ago. It makes me laugh at people that complain about 5o cents a day.
Who cares about "forever"? I have played a bit of DDO and so far i have paid NOTHING. I am not opposed to pay somethign but I am NOT playing fast enough to spend $15 a month. In fact, that is the primary reason why I do NOT sub to DDO because it is NOT my main game.
Plus, i expect to play something new soon if there is more F2P MMOs. I have tried a few and so far all of them are FREE to me (except my main game, which is WOW). Now $15 a month is not a lot of money, but i won't pay it for a game that i only play may be a couple of hours a month.
Plus, it is not about whether i can afford it, but why pay more if it is free?
Sure, i may be free-riding on someone else but it is certainly free (or at least low cost) to me.
I sure hope SWTOR does NOT go that route. I have no intention on playing a F2P game or pay a subscription so that someone else can do the same a la DDO. It is a said state of the gaming world when we the gamer are being duped into thinking that this so-called F2P model will be "good" for us. There is just not anything about that benefits the gamer. It does, if we are so duped, fully benefit the game companies. Now, I am not about being against game companies. I am about expecting the most quality and entertainment for the gaming dollars that I spend. Hence, F2P can in no way be a good thing.
The F2P model ALREADY benefits me. I wouldn't be playing DDO if it is a subbed game because i just don't have time to really play a second MMO (and while $15 a month is no biggie, i am also against paying if i am not really playing).
Now it is a nice second MMO that i can play a little and if i want more adventure, i can buy a pack. The nicest thing is that i don't have to play "seriously" to get my money worth. I don't know if Turbine can make enough off this model, but it certainly benefits ME.
And i surely hope that SWTOR is going that route. More f2p MMOs means that i can sample, and play multiple MMOs at the same time.
Apparently you missed it or do not understand my point. I, me, do not wish to PAY for YOUR playtime. If I, me, am paying the subscription for YOU to play for free it only benefits YOU and not ME. I already support too many other people to have to now be expected to support free loaders like YOU. Good day.
Let's party like it is 1863!
No matter how you try to spin it, nothing is free forever. So, let's talk the truth about how much you have spent in MT's or cash shops? I know plenty of people who have played the so called F2P plan with many a game and will not touch them now. I refuse to play them and nothing is free. So go ahead, humor me and be honest if you dare and tell us how much you spent so far. I guarantee a monthly sub fee is a whole lot cheaper. Not to mention if you cannot afford a mere 50 cents a day for gaming in the MMO world then go find a new hobby.
Many of us seasoned gamers used to pay $10-$12.00 an hour to play MUDS on BBS systems 25 fucking years ago. It makes me laugh at people that complain about 5o cents a day.
You want the truth about how much I've spent on F2P games to date? The truth is about $5 in the last 3 years. This compares to $100s spent on P2P games. I also remember playing MUDs for years, Mainly NannyMUD, which is one of the few old ones still around (I also developed several quests and a guild there in LPC). My early gaming experience goes back to playing adventure games (written in Fortran and PL/1) on a DG minicomputer in the 1970s.
It's interesting to me that we keep bringing up DDO as an example of a "good" MMO that uses (now) F2P.
I played that game through Beta, and long enough afterwards to reach max level (ten at that time) with my fighter and my rogue.
My then guild and I were the first ones on any server (to our knowledge) to perfect the Thranaal speed runs (we did it in under 2 minutes for hours at a time. Fun stuff till they nerfed it).
Later, I came back to the game, and attempted to level again, but the game had lost me. It wasn't that I was simply burned out on the quests because I farmed the living hell out of them. It was that there was NOTHING else to do in that game but the instances, and the rewards for the work were utter crap.
The armor was awful looking. The character models were atrocious and impossible to customize. The music was just the worst stuff ever PERIOD. The textures were dissapointingly bland... and worst of all, all the D&D lore you would have expected to find in ANY D&D setting was simply absent. Sure, you got to roam around and see stuff in Stormreach, but you didn't get to really experience ANYTHING that made Eberron what it was in the books.
It wasn't that people were paying for the game that drove them away. It was that they were paying for THAT game. The only thing I honestly look back on fondly in that game is the traps system and how that made each dungeon truly seem like a unique experience AT FIRST. Even that they fell flat on though, as the traps became very predictable, and the things that could kill you most easily were still death ray and petrification. Two very specific spells that can only be countered by two very specific spells...
So they yanked the ability to be innovative right out of the players' hands. Hell, in the beggining, skills were easily swappable, and rogues could be spellcasters practically. But, bad dicision after bad dicision pigeonholed every single character into a specific class. D&D was never about min/maxing (unless you are a player who plays by him/herself) so much as it was about having fun with your character, and using the cards in your deck to the best of your ability. (By way of example, one of my most "powerful" sorcerer characters ever was a human named Goblin who made liberal use of "Open-Close" on armor straps, shoelaces, weapon belts, and coin purses. Where is even 1/2 that kind of innovation in DDO?)
Add on top of that a slip-shod magic system (innovative in that no one else had tried it, but boring in that you are still spamming a button until you are out of spell power/casts for that spell), horrible movement mechanics, and almost no interaction with the world around you(and certainly not on any scale that equates to it being a D&D universe), and BOOM! You have THE REASON why DDO FAILED MISERABLY to attract enough players to the game to make a P2P model worthwhile.
It didn't fail because it was pay to play. It failed because, quite frankly, the game sucked. We MMO fans dance around that conclusion too much because the game(whatever game we are talking about) offers us a few small moments of enjoyment, so we gloss over the HOURS of BOREDOM and FRUSTRATION they also cause.
DDO isn't really a good example of anything except of how a company can be very much unwilling to let a failed product just drop. The game far from breaks the mold of "F2P = Subpar gaming experience." In fact, it just drags it out more.
[Begin Sarcasm]
Girls don't use the internet unless theres a webcam involved....its a physical impossibility.
They also don't play them thar vidya gaymes, mmorpg = most men online role play girls...even in ventrillo.
-kyte317
I sure hope SWTOR does NOT go that route. I have no intention on playing a F2P game or pay a subscription so that someone else can do the same a la DDO. It is a said state of the gaming world when we the gamer are being duped into thinking that this so-called F2P model will be "good" for us. There is just not anything about that benefits the gamer. It does, if we are so duped, fully benefit the game companies. Now, I am not about being against game companies. I am about expecting the most quality and entertainment for the gaming dollars that I spend. Hence, F2P can in no way be a good thing.
The F2P model ALREADY benefits me. I wouldn't be playing DDO if it is a subbed game because i just don't have time to really play a second MMO (and while $15 a month is no biggie, i am also against paying if i am not really playing).
Now it is a nice second MMO that i can play a little and if i want more adventure, i can buy a pack. The nicest thing is that i don't have to play "seriously" to get my money worth. I don't know if Turbine can make enough off this model, but it certainly benefits ME.
And i surely hope that SWTOR is going that route. More f2p MMOs means that i can sample, and play multiple MMOs at the same time.
Apparently you missed it or do not understand my point. I, me, do not wish to PAY for YOUR playtime. If I, me, am paying the subscription for YOU to play for free it only benefits YOU and not ME. I already support too many other people to have to now be expected to support free loaders like YOU. Good day.
Sure. Then just do NOT spend money on the f2p games. There are plenty of others I can free ride on although i am curious why you don't just play the game for free, or spend just small amount of money.
It is a free world. The companies can charge (or not charge) their customers as they see fit. And you have the choice of whether to play or not.
The flaw in your argument is that failure is 0 or 1. If DDO can make *some* money going f2p, there is no point not to do it.
And sure DDO may be subpar, but there is always a value-price trade-off. People DO buy/play cheaper budget games. For people who cannot afford (or do not want to pay for) premium more expenisve games, this may be a good option.
For example, I don't think DDO is as good as WOW, so i won't switch my wow sub to DDO. Even I can afford two subscriptions, i am NOT going to since i am going to play DDO a little bit. This free model allows me to have SOME variation in my MMO experiences and it is a good thing. Even you play DDO to some extent. Now I can do it because the price is right. There is value in that.
I see dozens of f2p games--they aren't really free to play, if you want any of the things a subscription game allows you to acquire by just playing. If the U.S. market ever tries to switch to this type of game fees--I'll just not play them anymore. I am amazed that anyone would fall for this kind of setup!! I can just imagine the kind of money players actually WASTE each month buying items in the game for REAL money, lol.
nariusseldon, to reply to your first post,
"Sure. Then just do NOT spend money on the f2p games. There are plenty of others I can free ride on although i am curious why you don't just play the game for free, or spend just small amount of money.
It is a free world. The companies can charge (or not charge) their customers as they see fit. And you have the choice of whether to play or not."
I agree. Though I don't think it's a free world, and everyone has to answer to their actions. So while they may have the choice to do one or the other, they have consequences for those choices.
"The flaw in your argument is that failure is 0 or 1. If DDO can make *some* money going f2p, there is no point not to do it.
And sure DDO may be subpar, but there is always a value-price trade-off. People DO buy/play cheaper budget games. For people who cannot afford (or do not want to pay for) premium more expenisve games, this may be a good option.
For example, I don't think DDO is as good as WOW, so i won't switch my wow sub to DDO. Even I can afford two subscriptions, i am NOT going to since i am going to play DDO a little bit. This free model allows me to have SOME variation in my MMO experiences and it is a good thing. Even you play DDO to some extent. Now I can do it because the price is right. There is value in that."
I agree, from a developer point of view, that "failure" is a very VERY vague term. But from a purely objective point of view, as someone who's only bias in this matter is that they like to play videogames (and therefore doesn't have to be conviced to try videogames as a whole) how would you compel them to play DDO?
The only real appeal is that the game is free. But so is NOT playing the game. So we must base the merits of whether the game is worth playing on the gameplay itself, and the features found therein.
Voice chat built into the game. Trap systems and instanced content. The ability to group with friends.... story-driven (to a point) content...
And really it ends there. Still, the game falls short. With the exception of the voice chat built into the game, the other "features" simply do not add up to an experience that is marketable. Making the game free didn't change the value of the gameplay, it simply lowered the cost of it to the consumer.
The most un-biased player will ultimately look at DDO and think about trying it out. But what about it would truly convince them to stick with it? What makes the game worth their time, which is not refundable?
It is friends who play the game (any game really) that will attract other friends to play that game. That and "shiney features" which include, but are not limited to, addictive and fulfilling gameplay.
DDO does not boast enough players to be able to claim enough of a community to really draw in a substatial new crowd. It has enough to keep the current players playing. While this is not the fault directly of the game itself, it is a byproduct of the gameplay, not the pricing model.
The shiney features that the game has are what are what really attract players to the game. This game simply lacks them. Almost entirely, which is a true shame. I USED to play this game, and I remember my high hopes as I rode the longboat into the bay at Stormreach on my first character. I remember trying to temper them with my experience with other MMOs, but this was, of course, D&D. The grandfather of all things nerdy (tolkien being the great grandfather). So I was addicted enough to get to the end game and realize that the game was unfinished. It was incomplete.
I am all for this model of F2P and pay for the modules/expansions. This is why I play guildwars still from time to time. But based solely on the merits of the gameplay itself, this game is simply awful. In my opinion.
It does the F2P argument more harm than good to tout this game as a mascot of "success" for the model. Long winded as it is, that's my point.
[Begin Sarcasm]
Girls don't use the internet unless theres a webcam involved....its a physical impossibility.
They also don't play them thar vidya gaymes, mmorpg = most men online role play girls...even in ventrillo.
-kyte317
Kusanoha, you may consider DDO to be "awful", but I've seen a lot of games that I consider worse. I agree that there are lots of deficiencies in it, but I haven't found any game yet that has everything I look for in a game. So rather than focus on what I don't like about DDO, I enjoy the things I do like and have fun.
When any game like DDO stops being fun, I move on to play something different, but I see no reason to stop playing while I'm still enjoying it just because I might get tired of it in another 2 months instead of the 4 months it might take if it was a better game.
I have no problem what so ever supporting a game I enjoy. I make it a point of purchasing some cash shop items, if I enjoy the game. That is after all, the way that the Dev's make money from their efforts. One does have to be careful, because its all too easy to spend more than one is expecting, but thats a matter of awareness and self discipline.
EA is all about numbers. Battlefield: Heroes is nothing more than a social test about how profitable of a venture it can be, as they have had their item mall up, running and fully functional during their beta stages. With their last massive patch that alienated a big part of the testers, they failed to care about informing anyone any notice about the changes made, but on the other hand their first priority was to INFORM IN DETAIL on everyones character screens with STEP BY STEP instructions to purchase their currency to buy specialty items.
End all... the potential is there. People do buy the ingame stuff, even though it's now in an "open beta" status and could be yanked at a moments notice. Overall I forsee EA going full blown with the idea and pioneering it in the West. If people are willing to buy items for games that are considered still in a "beta state", then to me that gives the thumbs-up for EA to further exploit the idea.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Possibly just possibly EA looked at the F2P numbers and did not like what they see. Considering this article is pure F2P favouritism and wishful thinking on Mr Aihoshi’s part, it is hardly surprising he wonders why EA has not taken up the joys of F2P.
I don’t.
I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. If Ea makes a really good game they will get money for it no matter what model they use to charge it's customers.
WARs problem is not really that it have monthly fees, the problem is that the game is fun for 3 weeks but gets boring fast after that. Do you really think they would earn more money if they changed subsciption model on it? I don't think so.
EA needs to make better MMOs to earn more money, the model they uses for people to pay might give them a little more or less money but if the game suck they will still lose money.
No, what EA really needs are a few great game designers. Jeff Strain has just quited his job, hire in him to make a new game and the players will come, or someone similar. Buying Bioware was great for them because they did get a few really good game designers, a few more people like that and they could actually come to the top.
To earn money you need to make fun games. To make fun games you need good devs and let them make the games as they want them to be, not by having corporate people doing what they think will bring most money.
That is the key to success.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*. Damn few suits are going to make the decision to authorize investing that type of money, over the time required to achieve it. Shareholders/investors are VERY short sighted. What have you done to "improve shareholder value" this *quarter* is ALL they care about.
Suits know this reality, and they aren't going to take the personal career risks required. So they stick to what has worked in the past. Without real understanding of why it worked, and how the target audience may have changed over time. Which explains the base line reception many of these new games have received. But since the suits can pass the blame on to the Dev's or the players, they don't have to take personal responsibility for it, and bottom line thats all they care about. But this is creating a feed back loop that is damaging players perceptions of the industry itself. Unless something is done to break that cycle, Bad Things(tm) could be on the horizon for the MMO industry.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*.
Risk is an integral part of the business world. MMO companies have been trying to avoid it, and they fail. Only the ones to actually step up to the plate and take that risk will even have a shot at succeeding. And ALL F2P games are by definition risk-adverse. Therefore, they are bound to fail, or at the very best create nothing better than mediocrity. And being an adult who recognizes the precious nature of time, I refuse to waste it on mediocrity.
If EA goes free to play, I want Earth & Beyond back.
Exactly right. Since thats rather obvious why doesn't it happen? One MAJOR reason sticks out. Doing that is a *risk*.
Risk is an integral part of the business world. MMO companies have been trying to avoid it, and they fail. Only the ones to actually step up to the plate and take that risk will even have a shot at succeeding. And ALL F2P games are by definition risk-adverse. Therefore, they are bound to fail, or at the very best create nothing better than mediocrity. And being an adult who recognizes the precious nature of time, I refuse to waste it on mediocrity.
Hell, if you are concerned about wasting time, you should find another hobby other than MMO games.
I quite agree that risk is not only part of business, but just about any human activity. The cult of the risk adverse isn't limited to strictly America. It has followers in just about all fields and countries. Far too many people do not understand risk management, and can not make a cost/benefit analysis for doing that management. Its all too directly personal to them. That is how we end up with so many failures and the luke warm "successes" that we've seen. Timid investors/shareholders who focus only on this *quarters* activity, are only one of the factors that drive that nasty feed back spiral. Unless or until people start taking some risks, we will continue to see the same warmed over pap that is all too common these days.