Holy christ, people. I'm not going to say Aion isn't a grind- because it is, but PLEASE let me know of this secret mmo that you complainers are all playing that doesn't have a grind. Please, i'm begging here, let me know.
Holy christ, people. I'm not going to say Aion isn't a grind- because it is, but PLEASE let me know of this secret mmo that you complainers are all playing that doesn't have a grind. Please, i'm begging here, let me know.
*doesn't expect a serious response*
You won't get any replies because the nay-sayers don't have a real answer for you The reason is, this super-secret MMO doesn't exist. Grinding happens in EVERY MMO, period...
While I respect your opinion AgtSmith - I think most people are just saying the curve is fine as is... I don't think anyone is going to flame NCSoft for making more xp per quests because simply, we don't care. We just want to be left alone to play our shiny "grindfest" game hehehe (sorry I can't resist sometimes). Seriously though - its fine that they made the quest xp bigger - I have no problem with that... but I didn't think it was such a big issue before. More people at 50 - faster... isn't a terrible thing... you still need to work for it AND the cryers will still complain its too much of a grind. IMO its very smart of NCSoft to do this.. it will cater to more people and not make it completely ezmode like WoW currently is... so, instead of being 10 days played to get to max level it may now only take 7-8 days... still a solid accomplishment in terms of MMO's - but will slow it down enough to give the "casual" gamers a better chance to reach end game faster. I don't have any problem with this.. and I doubt anyone who likes Aion cares one way or the other.
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 Ahhh, I see what it is now. you want NO grind, and again, be level 50 in a week. Well suck it up buddy, this isnt the game for you.
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game.
And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that.
I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
Who are you trying to convince? If Aion 'fails' time will tell people will leave the game and head right back to the nemesis WoW.
Honest players:
This thread is pointless Aion is great it is a "grind" but as is every MMORPG. Arguing with ignorant fools is pointless there mind is set they don't need to play, if they bought it and enjoyed it then fine, if not the who cares this forum is too small to take any impact on the current sub numbers
Id just like to point out that the fact someone has been playing mmos for 10 years is actually detrimental to their ability to judge games. they think the way they had it is the only way it should ever be. They look past all the shit that was early mmos to the parts that were good. They can't accept anything new no matter how good it is. New games outstripe old games by miles in the catagories that matter to the people playing them. Just because they no longer cater to the guy who wants to make friends online as opposed to in the real world and live in fantasy land doesn't mean they are bad it just means its not for that guy.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game. And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that. I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
I didn't take a stand one way or another on the casual VS hardcore grind thing, though I have said I felt Aion was too grindy my objection was not in the grind but the timesink element Aion uses excessively. Personally, I think the change they are proposing, without getting in to specifics of the amount and how it relates in game, is a good idea because the main game of Aion is PvP and until the later levels you cannot really participate on an even footing so haivng people timesink/grind through mid levels where they are just gank fodder seems stupid to me. I think a Guild Wars type fast to upper level so you can get in to the main endgame part of things makes more sense. But all that being said, my biggest gripe with Aion was more surrounding the poor quality PvE than the grind or anything else. I felt it was there just as a gating to the endgame and as such should have been shorter or if it was going to be more time consuming it should have been better quality. I also didn't like the way flight was largely a gimmick - cannot fly in most places and AI farts out and resets if you fly and things like that. Basically, in my opinion, Aion is what the rap against it says (if you can remove the condescending nature of the description), a Korean grinder. If you like that sort of thing then great - go power through and get to the point that you can gank away on those still working their way up. I don't like that kind of thing but Aion is pretty much that, albeit a good variant of it in terms of production quality.
While I respect your opinion AgtSmith - I think most people are just saying the curve is fine as is... I don't think anyone is going to flame NCSoft for making more xp per quests because simply, we don't care. We just want to be left alone to play our shiny "grindfest" game hehehe (sorry I can't resist sometimes). Seriously though - its fine that they made the quest xp bigger - I have no problem with that... but I didn't think it was such a big issue before. More people at 50 - faster... isn't a terrible thing... you still need to work for it AND the cryers will still complain its too much of a grind. IMO its very smart of NCSoft to do this.. it will cater to more people and not make it completely ezmode like WoW currently is... so, instead of being 10 days played to get to max level it may now only take 7-8 days... still a solid accomplishment in terms of MMO's - but will slow it down enough to give the "casual" gamers a better chance to reach end game faster. I don't have any problem with this.. and I doubt anyone who likes Aion cares one way or the other.
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 Ahhh, I see what it is now. you want NO grind, and again, be level 50 in a week. Well suck it up buddy, this isnt the game for you.
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game.
And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that.
I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
Let me add an important distinction that is missed in this grind discussion. Whether a game is casual friendly (fast levels) or more hardcore (slower levels like an EQ) is separate from grind. I prefer a more deep and complex MMO (like VG or EQ or something like that) to a very casual one (like Champions Online). But that being said, grind is something different than leveling pace. Grind is doing un-entertaining, often unrewarding, or simply un-fun stuff over and over just to manufacture XP (or something else in some contexts). those of us who bemoan Aion's grind are not criticizing the leveling pace so much as the artificial nature of the timesink in some of the level ranges (particularly from my experience as you approach 20 and above). Yes, all MMOs have grind - just as all have timesinks and moneysinks and other things that by themselves are unpelasent to most gamers. The trick, and what separates the good games from the bad ones, is how well those sinks and the grind is dressed up and either made fun or at least how well the annoyance of such things is mitigated.
Id just like to point out that the fact someone has been playing mmos for 10 years is actually detrimental to their ability to judge games. they think the way they had it is the only way it should ever be. They look past all the shit that was early mmos to the parts that were good. They can't accept anything new no matter how good it is. New games outstripe old games by miles in the catagories that matter to the people playing them. Just because they no longer cater to the guy who wants to make friends online as opposed to in the real world and live in fantasy land doesn't mean they are bad it just means its not for that guy.
Wow (no pun intended), Someone with 10+ years of mmo experience can not judge them properly? That may be the most ignorant comment I have ever seen. The fact that they are STILL playing MMO's 10 years later shows that they can appreciate some of the new stuff that has been implemented over the years.
I have stated this for years, People complain that the games are to easy and they are, there is no denying that. This genre while it has picked up a lot of people, has went in mostly the wrong direction and I will explain more on that in a minute. Sure wow has millions of subs, and strictly by a numbers game it makes them the best mmo ever, but not in terms of content and gameplay. You see a lot of these people, wow was their first mmo, so they cant even comprehend another mmo being harder than what they have seen in wow. Don't get me wrong, I played wow for a good long while and I liked it, It was fun, but in the end, it had no soul, and many of those people that are leaving, even if they dont realize it yet, are starting to comprehend this at least on some level.
So what happens now, every game since wow is a wow clone and thus either sucks because the game devs tried to give easy gameplay trying to imitate the leader, or it sucks because the gameplay is harder and longer. Its a no win situation to these new players and in many cases to the old players as well. Most of MMO's today are but a shallow shell of what they once were. Sure there are very nice innovations in the market today that if had been applied back in the old days, could have really enhanced the game play but at the same time there are many enhancements that have also hindered the genre as a whole.
The original design of MMO's is group play. To bring people together as a group and function well, That is not the case in most of them today. Most highly encourage solo play and while I have always (even 10 years ago) liked soloing, it does break down what an MMO is all about and that is group play.
Now earlier I mentioned that the genre has went in the wrong direction and I will try and elaborate on that more now. Back in the old days, there were several key features that have been completely stripped from mmo's now and while it has made the game so much easier, it has also made it so much more boring. The biggest key feature that is missing now is fear. There is no reason to fear anything in the game anymore which makes people much more aggressive in the game because they simply dont care if they die or get entire parties wiped. The only penalty for death now is time and with todays mmo travel methods, thats not even a penalty anymore. See, without penalties, you can never truely understand the victories. All victories are just pale wins with no real meaning if there is no consequences for failure. Now I am not talking about losing xp for death, I am talking penalties for playing stupid. There are many things that could have been done to give penalties without taking peoples xp.
My favorite and most hated which means it actually did its job was one of the penalties EQ1 gave for death. That was the corpse run. They could have left out the xp loss and it would still have been one of the most feared things in the mmo genre. It means you now have to fight to get back to where you were and get your stuff back. That one aspect alone really brought fear to the game. The folks that have never experienced this, just cant even wrap that notion around their head. The most they can say about it is that its stupid, but that is simply ignorance talking. You simply can not have a game that has no penalties in it and expect it to be fun forever. Its just going to get boring and blah and soon your looking for something better. The problem is, something better can never come along because once you take out all the penalties, what is there to accomplish?
How can players feel respect for their accomplishments when they didn't have to earn it? If zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die zerg/WIN is all the have to do and there was no penalties for all those deaths, what did they really win? All they learned is there is no penalties for failure so we dont have to think about what we are doing, we just zerg it till we get lucky and win and boom, we got that shiny new plate piece.
Now back to your statement. I dont look past all the shit that was there 10 years ago, and there was a lot of it. I have stated that I like a lot of the new features that the new mmos bring to the market. The problem is that when you take out penalties,can you really actually accomplish anything? Think about that for a while.
Let me add an important distinction that is missed in this grind discussion. Whether a game is casual friendly (fast levels) or more hardcore (slower levels like an EQ) is separate from grind. I prefer a more deep and complex MMO (like VG or EQ or something like that) to a very casual one (like Champions Online). But that being said, grind is something different than leveling pace. Grind is doing un-entertaining, often unrewarding, or simply un-fun stuff over and over just to manufacture XP (or something else in some contexts). those of us who bemoan Aion's grind are not criticizing the leveling pace so much as the artificial nature of the timesink in some of the level ranges (particularly from my experience as you approach 20 and above). Yes, all MMOs have grind - just as all have timesinks and moneysinks and other things that by themselves are unpelasent to most gamers. The trick, and what separates the good games from the bad ones, is how well those sinks and the grind is dressed up and either made fun or at least how well the annoyance of such things is mitigated.
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players.
Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
Let me add an important distinction that is missed in this grind discussion. Whether a game is casual friendly (fast levels) or more hardcore (slower levels like an EQ) is separate from grind. I prefer a more deep and complex MMO (like VG or EQ or something like that) to a very casual one (like Champions Online). But that being said, grind is something different than leveling pace. Grind is doing un-entertaining, often unrewarding, or simply un-fun stuff over and over just to manufacture XP (or something else in some contexts). those of us who bemoan Aion's grind are not criticizing the leveling pace so much as the artificial nature of the timesink in some of the level ranges (particularly from my experience as you approach 20 and above). Yes, all MMOs have grind - just as all have timesinks and moneysinks and other things that by themselves are unpelasent to most gamers. The trick, and what separates the good games from the bad ones, is how well those sinks and the grind is dressed up and either made fun or at least how well the annoyance of such things is mitigated.
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players.
Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
QFT... I wish we had more posters like this /shrug
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players. Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
First, I used EQ as an example as it is know for a more old school, hardcore style and Champions because it is a recent 'easy mode' type. I wasn't saying that I love EQ on one side and hate Champions on the other side, was just trying to use examples people would associate accordingly.
Second, all I was saying is that the gripes about grind are more about repetition of unfun things that a commentary on how long in time a level up takes. Maybe you disagree but I think that most people that gripe about a grind are really griping about the unfun part not so much the time part.
And I do think that whatever the source of the grind gripes is, slow leveling or unfun leveling, there is a big difference in good and not so good games in how they masquerade 'grinds'. For instance, a game that just has you jumping through hoops without much pretense and/or doing lots and lots of repetitive and unfun stuff just to progress is not so much likely to be a 'good game'. On the other hand, a game that gives attention to adding fun elements to break up repetition and grind even if it is still taking lots of time to level is going to be a good game. It is all about progression, and how fun it is. Good games, be they slow leveling or fast leveling, are designed to give players a sense of progression and accomplishment as fuel to work through those levels and where they may have longer gaps in levels or milestones they will give attention to keeping things fun and interesting. What separates good and bad MMOs is not fast or slow leveling as that is arbitrary overall, it is if the grind or timesinks or progression is rewarding and fun and if it scales from start to finish.
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players. Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
First, I used EQ as an example as it is know for a more old school, hardcore style and Champions because it is a recent 'easy mode' type. I wasn't saying that I love EQ on one side and hate Champions on the other side, was just trying to use examples people would associate accordingly.
Second, all I was saying is that the gripes about grind are more about repetition of unfun things that a commentary on how long in time a level up takes. Maybe you disagree but I think that most people that gripe about a grind are really griping about the unfun part not so much the time part.
And I do think that whatever the source of the grind gripes is, slow leveling or unfun leveling, there is a big difference in good and not so good games in how they masquerade 'grinds'. For instance, a game that just has you jumping through hoops without much pretense and/or doing lots and lots of repetitive and unfun stuff just to progress is not so much likely to be a 'good game'. On the other hand, a game that gives attention to adding fun elements to break up repetition and grind even if it is still taking lots of time to level is going to be a good game. It is all about progression, and how fun it is. Good games, be they slow leveling or fast leveling, are designed to give players a sense of progression and accomplishment as fuel to work through those levels and where they may have longer gaps in levels or milestones they will give attention to keeping things fun and interesting.
Isnt that what quests are really about? To give a sense of accomplishment no matter if it is saving the princess or saving the farmer from the undead that haunts his place at night. People feel that you should get a great amount of xp no matter how big or how small the quests are because they are quests. A lot of the quests is meant to break up the grind by having you run around and talk to people and learn more about the lore of the game instead of go kill me X amount of Y. And still, people bitch about that to. Oh thats not worth running over across the land to talk to that guy and come back. Why not? you might actually learn something new about the lore of the game.
Fun is a relative term. What might be fun for you, might not be fun for the next guy. You can never please everybody. Again, the grind is only as bad as you let it to be. if you group up and enjoy chatting with your group and killing creatures, the grind is never that bad. If your only goal is to get to the next level as quickly as possible, well, your going to complain about the grind. Any game, even korean grinders can be fun if YOU make it fun. Could companies make it more fun? Sure, and most of them try their best to do so. The question remains if they can do enough to make it fun for you. If not, then you move on to another game. The MMO genre is different from every other game out there. The other games are meant to entertain you for a short while until you beat it and move on. The MMO genre is there to challenge you and make you work for your goals. It is meant to be a long term game thats not supposed to be won in a week. That is the thing people need to remind themselves about. Its not about instant gratification like an fps is, its about building a character and taking that character on a long journey and hopefully get many wonderful experiences along the way.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players
I do think this is a valid, though separate, point in terms of a deficiency of modern MMOs. In a way it goes to my point above in so far as it isn't that today's MMOs do not have group stuff it is that they have arbitrary or artificial group stuff or that grouping itself is often more work than it is rewarding. Good MMOs creatively and transparently encourage not just grouping but socialising and I think that is very lacking in many MMOs.
Let me give you an example of both by unfun leveling and grind thing and the grouping thing in terms of how some games are doing them poorly. A common method, in simple terms, of making group combat is to just up the hitpoints of MOBs so that it takes so long for one or two people to kill said MOB that you need a group. To me this is a terrible example of group content because it most often plays in no special or interesting way it is just artificial and it plays on a weakness of MMOs being that they are so often about what you have in terms of level/gear/power before a fight starts more so than what you do in a fight. So if a game relies on this kind of content to encourage grouping then, often times, grouping is diminished and done minimally when needed. Another issue with grouping that 'bad' games often have is related to the questing mechanic. Not only that, quests segment populations making grouping difficult, think about how much time you spend in most games these days trying to either catch a person up to your part of the quest or just finding someone on the same part you are on. These days so much of an MMO is about get a quest, do a quest (for XP or reward or both) and the joy of the actual doing is lost. Yes, timesinks and grinds are part of gating an MMO and necessary but Quests seem to have replaced content/gameplay in terms of doing something for the fun of it as well as the rewards. In a similar way the whole level progression and grind thing is also suffering from this I think.
So on the grouping issue and the timesink/grind issue I think the real issue is a lack of creativity on the part of games. They have lost sight of the magic balance of progression, enjoyment of the task, social elements, and how important it is to creatively and transparently merge these things in this persistent online world. All this said, my simple point is (and it applies to grouping and the issue of grind) is that good games find ways to deal with these things that is transparent to the user so they don't feel that they are working to level or jumping through hoops being gated from their objective. In grouping this can be the false inflation of mob hitpoints issue making killing a group mob in a group as easy as a solo mob solo with no interesting or exciting mechanics or gameplay added to the mix to counter the various difficulties of grouping and in grind/timesink issues it can be as simple as finding a way to make the grind not seem like a grind so as to avoid the player feeling they are just jumping through artificial hoops. It all comes down to scaling progression appropriately so the carrot is not to close that the player can get a big bite nor to far that he loses sight and interest.
I've read through some comments and found them funny so I will enlighten some nubs.
As for me, I have a lvl50 assassin on the korean Kashinelle server. I didn't have top abyss gears, except the lvl40 gold abyss accessories, however I had full Draupnir Instance lvl47 gold leather armor set (BaekHo), and double lvl45 gold craft daggers, which I eventually changed to streching Teobomos dagger and black heart dagger setting.
I've quit the game for good, not because of the game mechanics or the lack of fun factor. I just didn't like NCsoft's lack of consideration for customers.
Now about the forward movement being stupid because you run through people? (I just read this somewhere in this thread). If you can't get used to Aion controls because of your inability I suggest you rather not comment.
There's a huge difference in how much of the top end gears are available in the NA/EU server. Alot of you don't seem to realize how important Aion's attack speed increase gears are...they are deadly essential in end game and from 40+.
It isn't like motion cancelling can be abused in Aion anylonger ever since the 1.5 patch. The skill attack motions can no longer be skipped.
For example, I played an assassin, and controls played a huge part in PvP. Forward movement while CCing someone and timing the movement correctly to achieve both forward movement bouns+back attack bonus+critical attack ,was a determing factor in most 1v1 battles.
If I did not succeed in this sequence, even a Sorc with full HP mana stone setting was able to withstand the initial back strike as long as my CC missed and I did not get critical backstabs.
If it was a good sorc, he/she would activate a shield with almost instantaneous response time and run away, or CC from a safe distance.
You don't have time to prepare and plan your next move in PvP similar to WoW. Aion's endgame PvP is like WoW PvP on crack minus the auto-face, auto-target.
Either you anticipate your opponent's next move and take route #1, #2, or #3. With the attack speed increase gears and the average pace of endgear PvP you don't have time to double guess in Aion.
Someone also mentioned Aion's random numerical generator vs. WoW's game mechanics. It's true Aion's system affects PvP, but does not determine the outcome.
It's a difference of preference, but in real life, you can't do everything based on exact calculations.
Shaq O'neil does not DUNK on every other smaller player when he has the ball on his hands. (that's sounded alittle wrong...LOL)
With the current state of Aion in NA/EU you will not fully grasp the importance of WASD movement in Aion. Once there are a number of lvl40s and a good number top endgears available in the servers, people will notice how complex Aion PvP can become.
Of course, the PvP has a different playstyle compared to that of WoW, but I believe it's more preference than a flaw in the system.
It was true that Koreans were bashing on Aion's lack of control in combat mechanics, but that's not longer arguable with excuses like, WoW is better.
Simply put WoW isn't better. It's different.
Those top WoW players who were bashing Aion are rather humilated by Aion players now. It used to be that there was no controls in Aion, but now, if you can't adapt yourself to Aion's PvP, you're the moron.
No top players simply stands in front of opponents and presses 1,2,2,3,3,3,4.
Let's say for a 1v1, streching dagger set assassin vs. dual+spear switch glad. A good number of moron PvPers or just plain simply noobs, would stand in front of each other mashing numbers, wondering why the assassin always losses. Assassin will lose 100% in this situation I guarantee it.
But if you take the advantage of the streching daggers that the assassin has, he/she can utlize different stun and bind in the air CCs to lock the glad down and attack from 4.0 distance instead of 1.5 distance, at the same time avoiding counter CCs and knockdown skills from glad's spear skills+attack range.
Even when you face a dual glad with impentrable armor (well maybe not with stigma skill impenetrable armor activated...bit too much ) activated head to head you can still avoid losses, depending on the mana stone build of your gears, if you can get up to 1800 evasion with your Sin, you are a true PvP build. You not not do much dmg or crits, but that's a personal preference.
By any chance you're a glad, try hitting an assassin with +1800 evasion setting in the near future. Misses like crazy even when standing, add to the strafing in end-game...almost impossible to hit.
All this is only available with top gear settings and +lvl40s, and unfortunately, there aren't either of those in the NA/EU servers.
Now back to topic...there's grind in every MMO. If you don't like the degree of grind which Aion brings, then don't play it. Just quit. It's not a game for you, and it will not get any easier.
WHOEVER SAYS AION HAS NO ENDGAME IS A MORON. Aion's leveling from 1 to 50 is a breeze compared to the time you will be investing to get top gears.
If you thought WoW's endless Instances and raids to get end-gear was a fatigue. Just give up Aion. Aion's top end-gears are 100x harder to get in comparison to WoW.
If Ensidia ever ran through Aion's instances in hopes of getting top gears, they would shit their pants at how ridiculous Aion's drop rates are. I couldn't even say Ensidia could get one heroic weapon drop from Tabahata the dragon, which is available at the end of the PvPvE instance with an S rank, even if they ran through it a 100 times. They would probably rather jump off the empire state building.
In the korean Kashinelle server, I approximately ran through the Fire Temple instance a 100 times, starting from level 31 to 38. I did not see a single drop of Chromade weapons.
I wanted just one single Chromade dagger, and did not get it, while another person I knew attained a pair of them from levels 31-35. Experiences vary, but I know from speaking to people, there were a far greater number of people who did not get their drops compared to those who did.
This is an example of the drop rate...but seriously, if you have time to complain about the grind....
Just give up, you're not cut for this game. If you're gonna whine about the level grind, you have no clue what's up ahead with the endgear grinding.
There are only 4 things to do in Aion in endgame at level 50.
1. Endless PvP in the Abyss and rifts: to obtain medals and AP
2. Endless PvE in Instances: to get top instance drop gears
3. Endless PvPvE + PvP in Abyss + Rifts + PvE instance: to get the best of drops from both worlds...as in instance gear+AP gear+Open field Boss gears
4. Endless gathering of mats: either selling them,or gambling at crafting, craftable top gears.
And I state once again...ENDLESS, you will cry your ass out for the unfortunate drop rates.
But personally I don't mind that, although I don't play anymore.
THIS GAME DOES NOT REWARD PEOPLE WITH NO PERSERVERANCE.
Don't like it? Don't play it. Nuff said.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month? Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools? MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 Isnt that what quests are really about? To give a sense of accomplishment no matter if it is saving the princess or saving the farmer from the undead that haunts his place at night. People feel that you should get a great amount of xp no matter how big or how small the quests are because they are quests. A lot of the quests is meant to break up the grind by having you run around and talk to people and learn more about the lore of the game instead of go kill me X amount of Y. And still, people bitch about that to. Oh thats not worth running over across the land to talk to that guy and come back. Why not? you might actually learn something new about the lore of the game.
Yeah, when done right quests can do that but when done wrong or without the creativity I mention above it just becomes a different grind, different hoops. I won't say quests are bad, that is not the issue - the issue is, and all my points here are about this, how well the element is done. It is a tough balance as so many people have so many preferences but I think the problem in a general sense here is that if you are all quests then it just becomes the the same issue with a different format. The trick is to mix things up and not be so rigid and formulaic from start to finish and to use all sorts of elements to disguise the grind/gating. I also think that today's MMOs fail miserably to make a quest require any thought, the lore and story and all that is irrelevant if it holds no bearing on your ability to complete the task of the quest. Mind you not all quests have to be vibrant and dynamic some can be skip-able blah, blah kill 10 rats and come back but you have to mix that up.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01
Fun is a relative term. What might be fun for you, might not be fun for the next guy. You can never please everybody. Again, the grind is only as bad as you let it to be. if you group up and enjoy chatting with your group and killing creatures, the grind is never that bad. If your only goal is to get to the next level as quickly as possible, well, your going to complain about the grind. Any game, even korean grinders can be fun if YOU make it fun. Could companies make it more fun? Sure, and most of them try their best to do so. The question remains if they can do enough to make it fun for you. If not, then you move on to another game. The MMO genre is different from every other game out there. The other games are meant to entertain you for a short while until you beat it and move on. The MMO genre is there to challenge you and make you work for your goals. It is meant to be a long term game thats not supposed to be won in a week. That is the thing people need to remind themselves about. Its not about instant gratification like an fps is, its about building a character and taking that character on a long journey and hopefully get many wonderful experiences along the way.
Obviously, preference plays a part in all things. But I think it is a reasonable presumption that people want to have fun playing these games. For some folks they derive fun more from accomplishment than the process though and that is the real challenge with an MMO. Some folks get satisfaction, and therefore their fun, from doing something few others have done - these are the types that like more of a grind as discussed here. I think these folks, while completely legitimate in their preference, are kind of like the PvP-hardcore-full loot folks in so far as they only feel a win if they can see someone else lose. On the other side of this spectrum are certainly players who get turned off with anyone losing or with any stratification of players. But overall, I think most players play for the fun of the process, not the tallies of who wins or loses, and that is why I think the game has to focus more on process and progression and that balance than just having quests to have quests, or pumping up HP and calling it a boss, or making a level take lots of repetitive actions and calling it hard.
Now back to topic...there's grind in every MMO. If you don't like the degree of grind which Aion brings, then don't play it. Just quit. It's not a game for you, and it will not get any easier.
I think the discussion here is not of should they change Aion as most folks would say it is their game they can do what they want with it in that regard. The discussion is of the merits of grind = hard verse grind = boring or otherwise not appealing to folks and also of whether the objection to a grind like Aion has is one of wanting things easy or just not liking the artificial or arbitrary way Aion substitutes reputation for challenge.
To me it is a case of false challenge. Consider having to this otherwise basic thing 100 times, now do that same otherwise basic thing 1000 times - doing it 1000 times may take more time but it is a flase challenge to suggest it is harder.
Originally posted by mugengaia
I wanted just one single Chromade dagger, and did not get it, while another person I knew attained a pair of them from levels 31-35. Experiences vary, but I know from speaking to people, there were a far greater number of people who did not get their drops compared to those who did. This is an example of the drop rate...but seriously, if you have time to complain about the grind.... Just give up, you're not cut for this game. If you're gonna whine about the level grind, you have no clue what's up ahead with the endgear grinding. THIS GAME DOES NOT REWARD PEOPLE WITH NO PERSERVERANCE. Don't like it? Don't play it. Nuff said.
A fair enough synopsis but that highlights the discussion point. As I said above, perseverance is not difficulty nor is it challenge and I think many folks in this thread and in defense of Aion suggest that it is.
Allow me to offer a silly example to illustrate what I am trying to say, and what I think people are objecting too when the lament the kind of grind talked about in Aion. If you go to college you, presumably, have to study and take tests and demonstrate knowledge and whatnot. that can be hard depending on the individual and the subject. But what if college exams or papers where graded not on the merit of the knowledge displayed but simply the length of the answer or paper? It would become a contest of attrition or perseverance as to who could just babble off the most and the real challenge of mastering a subject matter would be lost. What value would the degree have, sure those who stick it out and graduate have something others don't but the degree is diminished as it no longer would represent mastering of a subject but just outlasting other people. Now I know this example is silly but it serves the point I am trying to make in so far as grinds such as this are not hard, they don't require any real skill - just the patience, time, and commitment to push through until done. What people are complaining about, and I think finding lacking in these matters, is not making leveling difficult or even time consuming but the manner in which they substitute tolerance for the boredom of the grind for some legitimate difficulty or challenge.
Let me give you an example of both by unfun leveling and grind thing and the grouping thing in terms of how some games are doing them poorly. A common method, in simple terms, of making group combat is to just up the hitpoints of MOBs so that it takes so long for one or two people to kill said MOB that you need a group. To me this is a terrible example of group content because it most often plays in no special or interesting way it is just artificial and it plays on a weakness of MMOs being that they are so often about what you have in terms of level/gear/power before a fight starts more so than what you do in a fight. So if a game relies on this kind of content to encourage grouping then, often times, grouping is diminished and done minimally when needed. Another issue with grouping that 'bad' games often have is related to the questing mechanic. Not only that, quests segment populations making grouping difficult, think about how much time you spend in most games these days trying to either catch a person up to your part of the quest or just finding someone on the same part you are on. These days so much of an MMO is about get a quest, do a quest (for XP or reward or both) and the joy of the actual doing is lost. Yes, timesinks and grinds are part of gating an MMO and necessary but Quests seem to have replaced content/gameplay in terms of doing something for the fun of it as well as the rewards. In a similar way the whole level progression and grind thing is also suffering from this I think.
So on the grouping issue and the timesink/grind issue I think the real issue is a lack of creativity on the part of games. They have lost sight of the magic balance of progression, enjoyment of the task, social elements, and how important it is to creatively and transparently merge these things in this persistent online world. All this said, my simple point is (and it applies to grouping and the issue of grind) is that good games find ways to deal with these things that is transparent to the user so they don't feel that they are working to level or jumping through hoops being gated from their objective. In grouping this can be the false inflation of mob hitpoints issue making killing a group mob in a group as easy as a solo mob solo with no interesting or exciting mechanics or gameplay added to the mix to counter the various difficulties of grouping and in grind/timesink issues it can be as simple as finding a way to make the grind not seem like a grind so as to avoid the player feeling they are just jumping through artificial hoops. It all comes down to scaling progression appropriately so the carrot is not to close that the player can get a big bite nor to far that he loses sight and interest.
You know, the more I read your comments the more I am confused. From everything you say, and I may be reading this wrong, but it appears that EQ1 was the exact game that you keep describing as your almost perfect mmo situation. Let me elaborate on that further.
Up until the expansions (and I may not be remembering this correctly) the mobs only had 1 type, meaning there was no elites vs non elites. You had the two dragons, yes, but they were special and meant to be fought by many. A group going up against a creature was the same as if you were soloing except that you split the exp. Now, because you could kill these same mobs so much faster, you would gain xp faster than a solo person if done right. EQ1 also did not have a lot of quests and they were things you actually had to hunt for. They made them very hard to figure out and very sketchy in their descriptions which also made them more mysterious. Aside from their deliver letter from a to b quests, most of the few quests they had usually was very involved and had ramifications for doing them. I.E the paladin quest that ends with you having to get a group together to kill the head of the militia of the evil side. In doing so, everyone partied with that paladin, when the militia guy died, was now Kill on site for the entire militia in that zone. Now, there was a way to fix that faction but it took a very long time and lots and lots of grinding on mobs to do so.
My point here, is that while everquest did in fact have quests, they were rather sparse. meaning that most of your play time was, simply, grinding. Since then, pretty much every mmo has done two things. Tons and tons of quests and put in these stupid elite mobs (which I hate with a passion). So, why are the elite mobs there. That unfortunately is due to the new batch of mmo players. Combats not fast enough, we must be able to kill things in 15 seconds or less or we dont feel like we are accomplishing anything. So, what did the game companies do? They made combat faster. This in turn creates a new problem. If people group up, the combat is now based around 1 person, not a group, so therefore a group is going to be able to kill so fast that they will be able to level at a much faster pace than the devs want them to. Enter, Elite mobs. This will slow them down. A full group fighting elite mobs takes slightly longer than a single person fighting a regular mob to kill. Now a group can kill regular mobs and still do it faster than a solo person, but that does require an area with lots of mobs and fast respawn time. These type mobs are better suited for duo's. Personally, I hate elite mobs with a passion. They really have no business in an mmo unless it is a really special encounter, I.E. the dragons in eq1.
This leads me to your statement about how the devs have lost sight of the balance. I would argue that there never has been a balance. EQ1 is the closest mmo you have to your balance yet it was very slow paced, mostly group oriented, and made you suffer for doing stupid things. Since then, it has went completely downhill. You got elite mobs everywhere, you got tons and tons of quests that do in fact make it hard to get done by trying to find people that are on your part of the quest, You have very random encounters in that one mob that you fight, you kill it with ease, yet the next mob which is the exact same type of mob you just killed, you barely escape the win with a sliver of health left. And couple that with "the grind" and I can see where your coming from.
The solution may never come. Devs may in fact want to create that ultimate game, but it is so risky that they could end up belly up within a few months that they simply will not take that chance. So that takes me back to my original statement of, YOU have to take control of your play style in the game and make the game fun for you. Once you can't do that, its time to move on and try something else.
For the record, I am going to put out there that I am a quest fan. I love quests. I think they bring a lot to the game but you are right in that many times they are implemented poorly. Personally I think there should be only personal quests with group quests being left to very few encounters that are obviously biblical in proportion. This would eliminate, mostly, the problem of trying to find people on the same part of the quest you are on.
Just on a side note of quests and this is for anyone that gets this quest. There is a level 30 quest you get that is for your "class" quest. You get a choice of a really nice piece of armor (that is a set with really good bonus's) and another quest for a new weapon. This quest, however, is so ludicrous, that is is funny as hell. You can only do this quest once, meaning you can never have a full set of this armor or ever be able to do the weapon quest because it requires you to have all 5 pieces of the armor in order to qualify for it. Now, in reading up on it, it turns out that you could level 4 other alts to 30 and have them do the quest and pick the pieces you need and transfer them to your "main" via the bank. You now, can have a full set of that armor and go for the weapon. A quest that makes you level 4 alts that high is just crazy. Funny, but crazy. It is rumored that the abyss may have quest drops for that quest, but it has never been confirmed and I believe that the only way to get that full set is by the leveling of alts. Good luck on that one LOL.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 My point here, is that while everquest did in fact have quests, they were rather sparse. meaning that most of your play time was, simply, grinding. Since then, pretty much every mmo has done two things. Tons and tons of quests and put in these stupid elite mobs (which I hate with a passion). So, why are the elite mobs there. That unfortunately is due to the new batch of mmo players. Combats not fast enough, we must be able to kill things in 15 seconds or less or we dont feel like we are accomplishing anything. So, what did the game companies do? They made combat faster. This in turn creates a new problem. If people group up, the combat is now based around 1 person, not a group, so therefore a group is going to be able to kill so fast that they will be able to level at a much faster pace than the devs want them to. Enter, Elite mobs. This will slow them down. A full group fighting elite mobs takes slightly longer than a single person fighting a regular mob to kill. Now a group can kill regular mobs and still do it faster than a solo person, but that does require an area with lots of mobs and fast respawn time. These type mobs are better suited for duo's. Personally, I hate elite mobs with a passion. They really have no business in an mmo unless it is a really special encounter, I.E. the dragons in eq1. This leads me to your statement about how the devs have lost sight of the balance. I would argue that there never has been a balance. EQ1 is the closest mmo you have to your balance yet it was very slow paced, mostly group oriented, and made you suffer for doing stupid things. Since then, it has went completely downhill. You got elite mobs everywhere, you got tons and tons of quests that do in fact make it hard to get done by trying to find people that are on your part of the quest, You have very random encounters in that one mob that you fight, you kill it with ease, yet the next mob which is the exact same type of mob you just killed, you barely escape the win with a sliver of health left. And couple that with "the grind" and I can see where your coming from.
I think you have to factor in that in the early days of MMOs so much of the appeal was based on how new all the things in them where. You got tons of entertainment just from the big persistent world alone. Now though, much of that is old hat so it is admittedly harder to grab and hold people's attention.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 The solution may never come. Devs may in fact want to create that ultimate game, but it is so risky that they could end up belly up within a few months that they simply will not take that chance. So that takes me back to my original statement of, YOU have to take control of your play style in the game and make the game fun for you. Once you can't do that, its time to move on and try something else.
I think you are corrent at least in spirit, but in a practical sense so many MMOs these days only really allow you to level a character the DEVs built unlocking it as you go, so the freedom we once had to really make a unique character is largely gone. Instead we can only really tweak the pre made characters that the game offers. As a result, combat becomes more bland as it is mostly a case of been there and done that often times over and over again.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 For the record, I am going to put out there that I am a quest fan. I love quests. I think they bring a lot to the game but you are right in that many times they are implemented poorly. Personally I think there should be only personal quests with group quests being left to very few encounters that are obviously biblical in proportion. This would eliminate, mostly, the problem of trying to find people on the same part of the quest you are on.
Questing as it is commonly implemented in game today is really the worst possible gameplay dynamic I think, it is just another way or controlling the player experience, perhaps with noble intentions, and gating or unlocking the pre made MMO formula that is out there these days. I am not saying quests by themselves are terrible but the way they are used, predominately today, pretty much is terrible. I think the next big MMO will be the one to reall find a way to break the trend on this issue.
Originally posted by DoomsDay01 Just on a side note of quests and this is for anyone that gets this quest. There is a level 30 quest you get that is for your "class" quest. You get a choice of a really nice piece of armor (that is a set with really good bonus's) and another quest for a new weapon. This quest, however, is so ludicrous, that is is funny as hell. You can only do this quest once, meaning you can never have a full set of this armor or ever be able to do the weapon quest because it requires you to have all 5 pieces of the armor in order to qualify for it. Now, in reading up on it, it turns out that you could level 4 other alts to 30 and have them do the quest and pick the pieces you need and transfer them to your "main" via the bank. You now, can have a full set of that armor and go for the weapon. A quest that makes you level 4 alts that high is just crazy. Funny, but crazy. It is rumored that the abyss may have quest drops for that quest, but it has never been confirmed and I believe that the only way to get that full set is by the leveling of alts. Good luck on that one LOL.
I think you just described why people call Aion just another Asian grinder albeit with a bit more superficial polish than others. When I read stuff like that I just picture developers at a big conference table laughing about how they will get morons to pay for months of subs pursuing such things. Is it hard, no - is it challenging or does it take skill, no - it simply is a big huge timesink and that is the kind of stupid grind that I think Aion has way too much of throughout.
Originally posted by Phese
In L2 I grinded my ass off for months and actually had FUN while doing so. Grind is not what makes a game bad. I approve of grind, as it's bound to scare those oh so casual, whiny easymode kids off. Blah!
If you think grind = hard you are kidding yourself, that is the point I have been making. Mindlessly grinding MOBs over and over is stinking easy though in this case time consuming. I have never understood how people equate time spent to difficulty and skill, it is not even close to the same thing.
By example. If I compare driving to a nearby city to driving to New York there is a vast difference in the time involved. But without question both involve the exact same level of skills and expertise (looking up adn following directions to a close city is no different than to a far one, driving on interstate for 2 hours is no different than for 6 or 7, etc). So is a person who drives to New York a more skilled driver than someone who only drives to a nearby city? Of course not, he just did the same thing longer which at best is an issue of endurance though even that is a stretch. Time spent /= difficulty and the common implementation of time spent as difficulty is, in my opinion, ruining MMOs.
I never do that. I do quests and not much else. Might take me ages but I would never just stand around killing mobs mindlessly.
That is an exception when I get a group and do instances/dungeons, then it is actually fun and a good chance for some good loot.
Other than that I sure hope they will make the XP boost live so I can quest and nothing else to lvl.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Comments
ok how many hours you grinded in wow for that elusive armor piece you wanted
or how m,any run in various raid did your run to get that weapon 20 run 30 run at one run a week because its limited to once a week
every mmo have some kind of grind
you guys make me laugh when you speak as if there were mmo that did not have grind
ALL MMO have3 grind ,dont like grind go play free realm
"Grind" is what makes a MMORPG, stop reacting like it's something new. You'll see it in nearly all MMORPGs.
ESS O ESS. O ESS O. OR ESS? Bah, fuck it, just call 911.
Holy christ, people. I'm not going to say Aion isn't a grind- because it is, but PLEASE let me know of this secret mmo that you complainers are all playing that doesn't have a grind. Please, i'm begging here, let me know.
*doesn't expect a serious response*
You won't get any replies because the nay-sayers don't have a real answer for you
The reason is, this super-secret MMO doesn't exist. Grinding happens in EVERY MMO, period...
[gets popcorn and grabs a seat]
[munch munch munch]
I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game.
And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that.
I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
Flamers:
Who are you trying to convince? If Aion 'fails' time will tell people will leave the game and head right back to the nemesis WoW.
Honest players:
This thread is pointless Aion is great it is a "grind" but as is every MMORPG. Arguing with ignorant fools is pointless there mind is set they don't need to play, if they bought it and enjoyed it then fine, if not the who cares this forum is too small to take any impact on the current sub numbers
PEACE
so what do people want? you start the game at end game?
Id just like to point out that the fact someone has been playing mmos for 10 years is actually detrimental to their ability to judge games. they think the way they had it is the only way it should ever be. They look past all the shit that was early mmos to the parts that were good. They can't accept anything new no matter how good it is. New games outstripe old games by miles in the catagories that matter to the people playing them. Just because they no longer cater to the guy who wants to make friends online as opposed to in the real world and live in fantasy land doesn't mean they are bad it just means its not for that guy.
I didn't take a stand one way or another on the casual VS hardcore grind thing, though I have said I felt Aion was too grindy my objection was not in the grind but the timesink element Aion uses excessively. Personally, I think the change they are proposing, without getting in to specifics of the amount and how it relates in game, is a good idea because the main game of Aion is PvP and until the later levels you cannot really participate on an even footing so haivng people timesink/grind through mid levels where they are just gank fodder seems stupid to me. I think a Guild Wars type fast to upper level so you can get in to the main endgame part of things makes more sense. But all that being said, my biggest gripe with Aion was more surrounding the poor quality PvE than the grind or anything else. I felt it was there just as a gating to the endgame and as such should have been shorter or if it was going to be more time consuming it should have been better quality. I also didn't like the way flight was largely a gimmick - cannot fly in most places and AI farts out and resets if you fly and things like that. Basically, in my opinion, Aion is what the rap against it says (if you can remove the condescending nature of the description), a Korean grinder. If you like that sort of thing then great - go power through and get to the point that you can gank away on those still working their way up. I don't like that kind of thing but Aion is pretty much that, albeit a good variant of it in terms of production quality.
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I can appreciate what you said there, and how, but look around at what and how people are countering folks who say they didn't like it because it is a grind. They are flaming them as carebears or people who want things handed to them and other such attacks. The person I quoted in pointing out this change is a good example (quoted again below):
This is more the typical Aion fan responding to people who say they think the game is a grindy. That is the type of person my comment was referring to. And I should think each and every single one of them will quit Aion flaming Aion for being carebear when this goes live or they can simply change their names to Hypocrite to make it easy for everyone to know where they are coming from.
Actually your wrong. This is from a 10+ year MMO vet that knows how MMO's are and how crappy they have been made for the last several years. Easy leveling, quests every where you turn (that part I actually like), No death penalties. Just zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die until something is finally killed. You complain that aion isnt complete which no MMO ever made is. Hey, look EQ1 just celebrated 10 years of being in business and guess what, they STILL haven't finished the game.
And no, trust me, if I flame you, you will damn well know it. Im simply calling you out on your ignorance of MMO gameplay and your intolerance to slow paced leveling. It is not the right genre for you, simple as that.
I like the game, I am not a fanboy at all. I find many things about the game to be very irritating. Flight is unique, but that doesn't make the game. I dont like the fact that so many mob models are used over and over again as you level up. Its a failing example from the start of MMO history that devs, even spending years making the game, cant let their modelers make enough mob skins that you dont have to rinse and repeat every 10 levels. The list can go on and on and on about the things that I dislike in MMO's. However, What I do is try to take the best of what I am given and play the game. When its not fun, I quit and move on. I dont go to forums and bitch about how everything sucks and I am never playing this game again. I simply leave and move on. Something you could learn a thing or two about.
/signed
Let me add an important distinction that is missed in this grind discussion. Whether a game is casual friendly (fast levels) or more hardcore (slower levels like an EQ) is separate from grind. I prefer a more deep and complex MMO (like VG or EQ or something like that) to a very casual one (like Champions Online). But that being said, grind is something different than leveling pace. Grind is doing un-entertaining, often unrewarding, or simply un-fun stuff over and over just to manufacture XP (or something else in some contexts). those of us who bemoan Aion's grind are not criticizing the leveling pace so much as the artificial nature of the timesink in some of the level ranges (particularly from my experience as you approach 20 and above). Yes, all MMOs have grind - just as all have timesinks and moneysinks and other things that by themselves are unpelasent to most gamers. The trick, and what separates the good games from the bad ones, is how well those sinks and the grind is dressed up and either made fun or at least how well the annoyance of such things is mitigated.
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Wow (no pun intended), Someone with 10+ years of mmo experience can not judge them properly? That may be the most ignorant comment I have ever seen. The fact that they are STILL playing MMO's 10 years later shows that they can appreciate some of the new stuff that has been implemented over the years.
I have stated this for years, People complain that the games are to easy and they are, there is no denying that. This genre while it has picked up a lot of people, has went in mostly the wrong direction and I will explain more on that in a minute. Sure wow has millions of subs, and strictly by a numbers game it makes them the best mmo ever, but not in terms of content and gameplay. You see a lot of these people, wow was their first mmo, so they cant even comprehend another mmo being harder than what they have seen in wow. Don't get me wrong, I played wow for a good long while and I liked it, It was fun, but in the end, it had no soul, and many of those people that are leaving, even if they dont realize it yet, are starting to comprehend this at least on some level.
So what happens now, every game since wow is a wow clone and thus either sucks because the game devs tried to give easy gameplay trying to imitate the leader, or it sucks because the gameplay is harder and longer. Its a no win situation to these new players and in many cases to the old players as well. Most of MMO's today are but a shallow shell of what they once were. Sure there are very nice innovations in the market today that if had been applied back in the old days, could have really enhanced the game play but at the same time there are many enhancements that have also hindered the genre as a whole.
The original design of MMO's is group play. To bring people together as a group and function well, That is not the case in most of them today. Most highly encourage solo play and while I have always (even 10 years ago) liked soloing, it does break down what an MMO is all about and that is group play.
Now earlier I mentioned that the genre has went in the wrong direction and I will try and elaborate on that more now. Back in the old days, there were several key features that have been completely stripped from mmo's now and while it has made the game so much easier, it has also made it so much more boring. The biggest key feature that is missing now is fear. There is no reason to fear anything in the game anymore which makes people much more aggressive in the game because they simply dont care if they die or get entire parties wiped. The only penalty for death now is time and with todays mmo travel methods, thats not even a penalty anymore. See, without penalties, you can never truely understand the victories. All victories are just pale wins with no real meaning if there is no consequences for failure. Now I am not talking about losing xp for death, I am talking penalties for playing stupid. There are many things that could have been done to give penalties without taking peoples xp.
My favorite and most hated which means it actually did its job was one of the penalties EQ1 gave for death. That was the corpse run. They could have left out the xp loss and it would still have been one of the most feared things in the mmo genre. It means you now have to fight to get back to where you were and get your stuff back. That one aspect alone really brought fear to the game. The folks that have never experienced this, just cant even wrap that notion around their head. The most they can say about it is that its stupid, but that is simply ignorance talking. You simply can not have a game that has no penalties in it and expect it to be fun forever. Its just going to get boring and blah and soon your looking for something better. The problem is, something better can never come along because once you take out all the penalties, what is there to accomplish?
How can players feel respect for their accomplishments when they didn't have to earn it? If zerg/die zerg/die zerg/die zerg/WIN is all the have to do and there was no penalties for all those deaths, what did they really win? All they learned is there is no penalties for failure so we dont have to think about what we are doing, we just zerg it till we get lucky and win and boom, we got that shiny new plate piece.
Now back to your statement. I dont look past all the shit that was there 10 years ago, and there was a lot of it. I have stated that I like a lot of the new features that the new mmos bring to the market. The problem is that when you take out penalties,can you really actually accomplish anything? Think about that for a while.
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players.
Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
You yourself say that you prefer games more like EQ then say, Champions. What is the difference? fast level pace vs slow level pace. Both have one thing in common, the grind to the next level. There is no real "trick" that seperates good ones from bad ones. they are very obvious. What people are forgetting about slow leveling games is that those type games have huge time sinks in them. Its not an annoyance, its there for its exact purpose and people forget this. Its there because you should be grouping and spending your time while grinding, socializing with your fellow players.
Thats what seperated EQ from every other mmo out there. You were socializing the entire time you were grinding, which in turn made the grind less of a grind and more about hanging out with your friends while gaining xp. Since MMO players of today expect to be able to solo all the way to max level, they never sit back and enjoy the very big aspect of socialzing with their fellow players. Instead, that type of player thinks he is socializing with his fellow players because he is using the LFG channel as his personal barrens chat when in fact has nothing to do with socializing at all. They cant understand or even comprehend why a game would have levels like this. Now, I cant speak for the koreans, but maybe this is why they prefer the grind fest games over the quest type games. They enjoy playing with their friends and socializing while they are gaining xp. Maybe, just maybe, they enjoy the community first and the gameplay second.
QFT... I wish we had more posters like this /shrug
First, I used EQ as an example as it is know for a more old school, hardcore style and Champions because it is a recent 'easy mode' type. I wasn't saying that I love EQ on one side and hate Champions on the other side, was just trying to use examples people would associate accordingly.
Second, all I was saying is that the gripes about grind are more about repetition of unfun things that a commentary on how long in time a level up takes. Maybe you disagree but I think that most people that gripe about a grind are really griping about the unfun part not so much the time part.
And I do think that whatever the source of the grind gripes is, slow leveling or unfun leveling, there is a big difference in good and not so good games in how they masquerade 'grinds'. For instance, a game that just has you jumping through hoops without much pretense and/or doing lots and lots of repetitive and unfun stuff just to progress is not so much likely to be a 'good game'. On the other hand, a game that gives attention to adding fun elements to break up repetition and grind even if it is still taking lots of time to level is going to be a good game. It is all about progression, and how fun it is. Good games, be they slow leveling or fast leveling, are designed to give players a sense of progression and accomplishment as fuel to work through those levels and where they may have longer gaps in levels or milestones they will give attention to keeping things fun and interesting. What separates good and bad MMOs is not fast or slow leveling as that is arbitrary overall, it is if the grind or timesinks or progression is rewarding and fun and if it scales from start to finish.
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mm 10 years ,that was everquest ,wich will get an expension soon
16th ,that makes that a great game in any book
First, I used EQ as an example as it is know for a more old school, hardcore style and Champions because it is a recent 'easy mode' type. I wasn't saying that I love EQ on one side and hate Champions on the other side, was just trying to use examples people would associate accordingly.
Second, all I was saying is that the gripes about grind are more about repetition of unfun things that a commentary on how long in time a level up takes. Maybe you disagree but I think that most people that gripe about a grind are really griping about the unfun part not so much the time part.
And I do think that whatever the source of the grind gripes is, slow leveling or unfun leveling, there is a big difference in good and not so good games in how they masquerade 'grinds'. For instance, a game that just has you jumping through hoops without much pretense and/or doing lots and lots of repetitive and unfun stuff just to progress is not so much likely to be a 'good game'. On the other hand, a game that gives attention to adding fun elements to break up repetition and grind even if it is still taking lots of time to level is going to be a good game. It is all about progression, and how fun it is. Good games, be they slow leveling or fast leveling, are designed to give players a sense of progression and accomplishment as fuel to work through those levels and where they may have longer gaps in levels or milestones they will give attention to keeping things fun and interesting.
Isnt that what quests are really about? To give a sense of accomplishment no matter if it is saving the princess or saving the farmer from the undead that haunts his place at night. People feel that you should get a great amount of xp no matter how big or how small the quests are because they are quests. A lot of the quests is meant to break up the grind by having you run around and talk to people and learn more about the lore of the game instead of go kill me X amount of Y. And still, people bitch about that to. Oh thats not worth running over across the land to talk to that guy and come back. Why not? you might actually learn something new about the lore of the game.
Fun is a relative term. What might be fun for you, might not be fun for the next guy. You can never please everybody. Again, the grind is only as bad as you let it to be. if you group up and enjoy chatting with your group and killing creatures, the grind is never that bad. If your only goal is to get to the next level as quickly as possible, well, your going to complain about the grind. Any game, even korean grinders can be fun if YOU make it fun. Could companies make it more fun? Sure, and most of them try their best to do so. The question remains if they can do enough to make it fun for you. If not, then you move on to another game. The MMO genre is different from every other game out there. The other games are meant to entertain you for a short while until you beat it and move on. The MMO genre is there to challenge you and make you work for your goals. It is meant to be a long term game thats not supposed to be won in a week. That is the thing people need to remind themselves about. Its not about instant gratification like an fps is, its about building a character and taking that character on a long journey and hopefully get many wonderful experiences along the way.
I do think this is a valid, though separate, point in terms of a deficiency of modern MMOs. In a way it goes to my point above in so far as it isn't that today's MMOs do not have group stuff it is that they have arbitrary or artificial group stuff or that grouping itself is often more work than it is rewarding. Good MMOs creatively and transparently encourage not just grouping but socialising and I think that is very lacking in many MMOs.
Let me give you an example of both by unfun leveling and grind thing and the grouping thing in terms of how some games are doing them poorly. A common method, in simple terms, of making group combat is to just up the hitpoints of MOBs so that it takes so long for one or two people to kill said MOB that you need a group. To me this is a terrible example of group content because it most often plays in no special or interesting way it is just artificial and it plays on a weakness of MMOs being that they are so often about what you have in terms of level/gear/power before a fight starts more so than what you do in a fight. So if a game relies on this kind of content to encourage grouping then, often times, grouping is diminished and done minimally when needed. Another issue with grouping that 'bad' games often have is related to the questing mechanic. Not only that, quests segment populations making grouping difficult, think about how much time you spend in most games these days trying to either catch a person up to your part of the quest or just finding someone on the same part you are on. These days so much of an MMO is about get a quest, do a quest (for XP or reward or both) and the joy of the actual doing is lost. Yes, timesinks and grinds are part of gating an MMO and necessary but Quests seem to have replaced content/gameplay in terms of doing something for the fun of it as well as the rewards. In a similar way the whole level progression and grind thing is also suffering from this I think.
So on the grouping issue and the timesink/grind issue I think the real issue is a lack of creativity on the part of games. They have lost sight of the magic balance of progression, enjoyment of the task, social elements, and how important it is to creatively and transparently merge these things in this persistent online world. All this said, my simple point is (and it applies to grouping and the issue of grind) is that good games find ways to deal with these things that is transparent to the user so they don't feel that they are working to level or jumping through hoops being gated from their objective. In grouping this can be the false inflation of mob hitpoints issue making killing a group mob in a group as easy as a solo mob solo with no interesting or exciting mechanics or gameplay added to the mix to counter the various difficulties of grouping and in grind/timesink issues it can be as simple as finding a way to make the grind not seem like a grind so as to avoid the player feeling they are just jumping through artificial hoops. It all comes down to scaling progression appropriately so the carrot is not to close that the player can get a big bite nor to far that he loses sight and interest.
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I've read through some comments and found them funny so I will enlighten some nubs.
As for me, I have a lvl50 assassin on the korean Kashinelle server. I didn't have top abyss gears, except the lvl40 gold abyss accessories, however I had full Draupnir Instance lvl47 gold leather armor set (BaekHo), and double lvl45 gold craft daggers, which I eventually changed to streching Teobomos dagger and black heart dagger setting.
I've quit the game for good, not because of the game mechanics or the lack of fun factor. I just didn't like NCsoft's lack of consideration for customers.
Now about the forward movement being stupid because you run through people? (I just read this somewhere in this thread). If you can't get used to Aion controls because of your inability I suggest you rather not comment.
There's a huge difference in how much of the top end gears are available in the NA/EU server. Alot of you don't seem to realize how important Aion's attack speed increase gears are...they are deadly essential in end game and from 40+.
It isn't like motion cancelling can be abused in Aion anylonger ever since the 1.5 patch. The skill attack motions can no longer be skipped.
For example, I played an assassin, and controls played a huge part in PvP. Forward movement while CCing someone and timing the movement correctly to achieve both forward movement bouns+back attack bonus+critical attack ,was a determing factor in most 1v1 battles.
If I did not succeed in this sequence, even a Sorc with full HP mana stone setting was able to withstand the initial back strike as long as my CC missed and I did not get critical backstabs.
If it was a good sorc, he/she would activate a shield with almost instantaneous response time and run away, or CC from a safe distance.
You don't have time to prepare and plan your next move in PvP similar to WoW. Aion's endgame PvP is like WoW PvP on crack minus the auto-face, auto-target.
Either you anticipate your opponent's next move and take route #1, #2, or #3. With the attack speed increase gears and the average pace of endgear PvP you don't have time to double guess in Aion.
Someone also mentioned Aion's random numerical generator vs. WoW's game mechanics. It's true Aion's system affects PvP, but does not determine the outcome.
It's a difference of preference, but in real life, you can't do everything based on exact calculations.
Shaq O'neil does not DUNK on every other smaller player when he has the ball on his hands. (that's sounded alittle wrong...LOL)
With the current state of Aion in NA/EU you will not fully grasp the importance of WASD movement in Aion. Once there are a number of lvl40s and a good number top endgears available in the servers, people will notice how complex Aion PvP can become.
Of course, the PvP has a different playstyle compared to that of WoW, but I believe it's more preference than a flaw in the system.
It was true that Koreans were bashing on Aion's lack of control in combat mechanics, but that's not longer arguable with excuses like, WoW is better.
Simply put WoW isn't better. It's different.
Those top WoW players who were bashing Aion are rather humilated by Aion players now. It used to be that there was no controls in Aion, but now, if you can't adapt yourself to Aion's PvP, you're the moron.
No top players simply stands in front of opponents and presses 1,2,2,3,3,3,4.
Let's say for a 1v1, streching dagger set assassin vs. dual+spear switch glad. A good number of moron PvPers or just plain simply noobs, would stand in front of each other mashing numbers, wondering why the assassin always losses. Assassin will lose 100% in this situation I guarantee it.
But if you take the advantage of the streching daggers that the assassin has, he/she can utlize different stun and bind in the air CCs to lock the glad down and attack from 4.0 distance instead of 1.5 distance, at the same time avoiding counter CCs and knockdown skills from glad's spear skills+attack range.
Even when you face a dual glad with impentrable armor (well maybe not with stigma skill impenetrable armor activated...bit too much
) activated head to head you can still avoid losses, depending on the mana stone build of your gears, if you can get up to 1800 evasion with your Sin, you are a true PvP build. You not not do much dmg or crits, but that's a personal preference.
By any chance you're a glad, try hitting an assassin with +1800 evasion setting in the near future. Misses like crazy even when standing, add to the strafing in end-game...almost impossible to hit.
All this is only available with top gear settings and +lvl40s, and unfortunately, there aren't either of those in the NA/EU servers.
Now back to topic...there's grind in every MMO. If you don't like the degree of grind which Aion brings, then don't play it. Just quit. It's not a game for you, and it will not get any easier.
WHOEVER SAYS AION HAS NO ENDGAME IS A MORON. Aion's leveling from 1 to 50 is a breeze compared to the time you will be investing to get top gears.
If you thought WoW's endless Instances and raids to get end-gear was a fatigue. Just give up Aion. Aion's top end-gears are 100x harder to get in comparison to WoW.
If Ensidia ever ran through Aion's instances in hopes of getting top gears, they would shit their pants at how ridiculous Aion's drop rates are. I couldn't even say Ensidia could get one heroic weapon drop from Tabahata the dragon, which is available at the end of the PvPvE instance with an S rank, even if they ran through it a 100 times. They would probably rather jump off the empire state building.
In the korean Kashinelle server, I approximately ran through the Fire Temple instance a 100 times, starting from level 31 to 38. I did not see a single drop of Chromade weapons.
I wanted just one single Chromade dagger, and did not get it, while another person I knew attained a pair of them from levels 31-35. Experiences vary, but I know from speaking to people, there were a far greater number of people who did not get their drops compared to those who did.
This is an example of the drop rate...but seriously, if you have time to complain about the grind....
Just give up, you're not cut for this game. If you're gonna whine about the level grind, you have no clue what's up ahead with the endgear grinding.
There are only 4 things to do in Aion in endgame at level 50.
1. Endless PvP in the Abyss and rifts: to obtain medals and AP
2. Endless PvE in Instances: to get top instance drop gears
3. Endless PvPvE + PvP in Abyss + Rifts + PvE instance: to get the best of drops from both worlds...as in instance gear+AP gear+Open field Boss gears
4. Endless gathering of mats: either selling them,or gambling at crafting, craftable top gears.
And I state once again...ENDLESS, you will cry your ass out for the unfortunate drop rates.
But personally I don't mind that, although I don't play anymore.
THIS GAME DOES NOT REWARD PEOPLE WITH NO PERSERVERANCE.
Don't like it? Don't play it. Nuff said.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month?
Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools?
MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Yeah, when done right quests can do that but when done wrong or without the creativity I mention above it just becomes a different grind, different hoops. I won't say quests are bad, that is not the issue - the issue is, and all my points here are about this, how well the element is done. It is a tough balance as so many people have so many preferences but I think the problem in a general sense here is that if you are all quests then it just becomes the the same issue with a different format. The trick is to mix things up and not be so rigid and formulaic from start to finish and to use all sorts of elements to disguise the grind/gating. I also think that today's MMOs fail miserably to make a quest require any thought, the lore and story and all that is irrelevant if it holds no bearing on your ability to complete the task of the quest. Mind you not all quests have to be vibrant and dynamic some can be skip-able blah, blah kill 10 rats and come back but you have to mix that up.
Obviously, preference plays a part in all things. But I think it is a reasonable presumption that people want to have fun playing these games. For some folks they derive fun more from accomplishment than the process though and that is the real challenge with an MMO. Some folks get satisfaction, and therefore their fun, from doing something few others have done - these are the types that like more of a grind as discussed here. I think these folks, while completely legitimate in their preference, are kind of like the PvP-hardcore-full loot folks in so far as they only feel a win if they can see someone else lose. On the other side of this spectrum are certainly players who get turned off with anyone losing or with any stratification of players. But overall, I think most players play for the fun of the process, not the tallies of who wins or loses, and that is why I think the game has to focus more on process and progression and that balance than just having quests to have quests, or pumping up HP and calling it a boss, or making a level take lots of repetitive actions and calling it hard.
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I think the discussion here is not of should they change Aion as most folks would say it is their game they can do what they want with it in that regard. The discussion is of the merits of grind = hard verse grind = boring or otherwise not appealing to folks and also of whether the objection to a grind like Aion has is one of wanting things easy or just not liking the artificial or arbitrary way Aion substitutes reputation for challenge.
To me it is a case of false challenge. Consider having to this otherwise basic thing 100 times, now do that same otherwise basic thing 1000 times - doing it 1000 times may take more time but it is a flase challenge to suggest it is harder.
A fair enough synopsis but that highlights the discussion point. As I said above, perseverance is not difficulty nor is it challenge and I think many folks in this thread and in defense of Aion suggest that it is.
Allow me to offer a silly example to illustrate what I am trying to say, and what I think people are objecting too when the lament the kind of grind talked about in Aion. If you go to college you, presumably, have to study and take tests and demonstrate knowledge and whatnot. that can be hard depending on the individual and the subject. But what if college exams or papers where graded not on the merit of the knowledge displayed but simply the length of the answer or paper? It would become a contest of attrition or perseverance as to who could just babble off the most and the real challenge of mastering a subject matter would be lost. What value would the degree have, sure those who stick it out and graduate have something others don't but the degree is diminished as it no longer would represent mastering of a subject but just outlasting other people. Now I know this example is silly but it serves the point I am trying to make in so far as grinds such as this are not hard, they don't require any real skill - just the patience, time, and commitment to push through until done. What people are complaining about, and I think finding lacking in these matters, is not making leveling difficult or even time consuming but the manner in which they substitute tolerance for the boredom of the grind for some legitimate difficulty or challenge.
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Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Let me give you an example of both by unfun leveling and grind thing and the grouping thing in terms of how some games are doing them poorly. A common method, in simple terms, of making group combat is to just up the hitpoints of MOBs so that it takes so long for one or two people to kill said MOB that you need a group. To me this is a terrible example of group content because it most often plays in no special or interesting way it is just artificial and it plays on a weakness of MMOs being that they are so often about what you have in terms of level/gear/power before a fight starts more so than what you do in a fight. So if a game relies on this kind of content to encourage grouping then, often times, grouping is diminished and done minimally when needed. Another issue with grouping that 'bad' games often have is related to the questing mechanic. Not only that, quests segment populations making grouping difficult, think about how much time you spend in most games these days trying to either catch a person up to your part of the quest or just finding someone on the same part you are on. These days so much of an MMO is about get a quest, do a quest (for XP or reward or both) and the joy of the actual doing is lost. Yes, timesinks and grinds are part of gating an MMO and necessary but Quests seem to have replaced content/gameplay in terms of doing something for the fun of it as well as the rewards. In a similar way the whole level progression and grind thing is also suffering from this I think.
So on the grouping issue and the timesink/grind issue I think the real issue is a lack of creativity on the part of games. They have lost sight of the magic balance of progression, enjoyment of the task, social elements, and how important it is to creatively and transparently merge these things in this persistent online world. All this said, my simple point is (and it applies to grouping and the issue of grind) is that good games find ways to deal with these things that is transparent to the user so they don't feel that they are working to level or jumping through hoops being gated from their objective. In grouping this can be the false inflation of mob hitpoints issue making killing a group mob in a group as easy as a solo mob solo with no interesting or exciting mechanics or gameplay added to the mix to counter the various difficulties of grouping and in grind/timesink issues it can be as simple as finding a way to make the grind not seem like a grind so as to avoid the player feeling they are just jumping through artificial hoops. It all comes down to scaling progression appropriately so the carrot is not to close that the player can get a big bite nor to far that he loses sight and interest.
You know, the more I read your comments the more I am confused. From everything you say, and I may be reading this wrong, but it appears that EQ1 was the exact game that you keep describing as your almost perfect mmo situation. Let me elaborate on that further.
Up until the expansions (and I may not be remembering this correctly) the mobs only had 1 type, meaning there was no elites vs non elites. You had the two dragons, yes, but they were special and meant to be fought by many. A group going up against a creature was the same as if you were soloing except that you split the exp. Now, because you could kill these same mobs so much faster, you would gain xp faster than a solo person if done right. EQ1 also did not have a lot of quests and they were things you actually had to hunt for. They made them very hard to figure out and very sketchy in their descriptions which also made them more mysterious. Aside from their deliver letter from a to b quests, most of the few quests they had usually was very involved and had ramifications for doing them. I.E the paladin quest that ends with you having to get a group together to kill the head of the militia of the evil side. In doing so, everyone partied with that paladin, when the militia guy died, was now Kill on site for the entire militia in that zone. Now, there was a way to fix that faction but it took a very long time and lots and lots of grinding on mobs to do so.
My point here, is that while everquest did in fact have quests, they were rather sparse. meaning that most of your play time was, simply, grinding. Since then, pretty much every mmo has done two things. Tons and tons of quests and put in these stupid elite mobs (which I hate with a passion). So, why are the elite mobs there. That unfortunately is due to the new batch of mmo players. Combats not fast enough, we must be able to kill things in 15 seconds or less or we dont feel like we are accomplishing anything. So, what did the game companies do? They made combat faster. This in turn creates a new problem. If people group up, the combat is now based around 1 person, not a group, so therefore a group is going to be able to kill so fast that they will be able to level at a much faster pace than the devs want them to. Enter, Elite mobs. This will slow them down. A full group fighting elite mobs takes slightly longer than a single person fighting a regular mob to kill. Now a group can kill regular mobs and still do it faster than a solo person, but that does require an area with lots of mobs and fast respawn time. These type mobs are better suited for duo's. Personally, I hate elite mobs with a passion. They really have no business in an mmo unless it is a really special encounter, I.E. the dragons in eq1.
This leads me to your statement about how the devs have lost sight of the balance. I would argue that there never has been a balance. EQ1 is the closest mmo you have to your balance yet it was very slow paced, mostly group oriented, and made you suffer for doing stupid things. Since then, it has went completely downhill. You got elite mobs everywhere, you got tons and tons of quests that do in fact make it hard to get done by trying to find people that are on your part of the quest, You have very random encounters in that one mob that you fight, you kill it with ease, yet the next mob which is the exact same type of mob you just killed, you barely escape the win with a sliver of health left. And couple that with "the grind" and I can see where your coming from.
The solution may never come. Devs may in fact want to create that ultimate game, but it is so risky that they could end up belly up within a few months that they simply will not take that chance. So that takes me back to my original statement of, YOU have to take control of your play style in the game and make the game fun for you. Once you can't do that, its time to move on and try something else.
For the record, I am going to put out there that I am a quest fan. I love quests. I think they bring a lot to the game but you are right in that many times they are implemented poorly. Personally I think there should be only personal quests with group quests being left to very few encounters that are obviously biblical in proportion. This would eliminate, mostly, the problem of trying to find people on the same part of the quest you are on.
Just on a side note of quests and this is for anyone that gets this quest. There is a level 30 quest you get that is for your "class" quest. You get a choice of a really nice piece of armor (that is a set with really good bonus's) and another quest for a new weapon. This quest, however, is so ludicrous, that is is funny as hell. You can only do this quest once, meaning you can never have a full set of this armor or ever be able to do the weapon quest because it requires you to have all 5 pieces of the armor in order to qualify for it. Now, in reading up on it, it turns out that you could level 4 other alts to 30 and have them do the quest and pick the pieces you need and transfer them to your "main" via the bank. You now, can have a full set of that armor and go for the weapon. A quest that makes you level 4 alts that high is just crazy. Funny, but crazy. It is rumored that the abyss may have quest drops for that quest, but it has never been confirmed and I believe that the only way to get that full set is by the leveling of alts. Good luck on that one LOL.
In L2 I grinded my ass off for months and actually had FUN while doing so.
Grind is not what makes a game bad.
I approve of grind, as it's bound to scare those oh so casual, whiny easymode kids off.
Blah!
I think you have to factor in that in the early days of MMOs so much of the appeal was based on how new all the things in them where. You got tons of entertainment just from the big persistent world alone. Now though, much of that is old hat so it is admittedly harder to grab and hold people's attention.
I think you are corrent at least in spirit, but in a practical sense so many MMOs these days only really allow you to level a character the DEVs built unlocking it as you go, so the freedom we once had to really make a unique character is largely gone. Instead we can only really tweak the pre made characters that the game offers. As a result, combat becomes more bland as it is mostly a case of been there and done that often times over and over again.
Questing as it is commonly implemented in game today is really the worst possible gameplay dynamic I think, it is just another way or controlling the player experience, perhaps with noble intentions, and gating or unlocking the pre made MMO formula that is out there these days. I am not saying quests by themselves are terrible but the way they are used, predominately today, pretty much is terrible. I think the next big MMO will be the one to reall find a way to break the trend on this issue.
I think you just described why people call Aion just another Asian grinder albeit with a bit more superficial polish than others. When I read stuff like that I just picture developers at a big conference table laughing about how they will get morons to pay for months of subs pursuing such things. Is it hard, no - is it challenging or does it take skill, no - it simply is a big huge timesink and that is the kind of stupid grind that I think Aion has way too much of throughout.
If you think grind = hard you are kidding yourself, that is the point I have been making. Mindlessly grinding MOBs over and over is stinking easy though in this case time consuming. I have never understood how people equate time spent to difficulty and skill, it is not even close to the same thing.
By example. If I compare driving to a nearby city to driving to New York there is a vast difference in the time involved. But without question both involve the exact same level of skills and expertise (looking up adn following directions to a close city is no different than to a far one, driving on interstate for 2 hours is no different than for 6 or 7, etc). So is a person who drives to New York a more skilled driver than someone who only drives to a nearby city? Of course not, he just did the same thing longer which at best is an issue of endurance though even that is a stretch. Time spent /= difficulty and the common implementation of time spent as difficulty is, in my opinion, ruining MMOs.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
"have to grind mobs"
I never do that. I do quests and not much else. Might take me ages but I would never just stand around killing mobs mindlessly.
That is an exception when I get a group and do instances/dungeons, then it is actually fun and a good chance for some good loot.
Other than that I sure hope they will make the XP boost live so I can quest and nothing else to lvl.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
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And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "