Well let's just say I agree with most of what you want out of a MMORPG, today's gen. is far to limited, yet we may NEVER ignore that the majority seems to fully enjoy these games, but I am sure there is room for more and eventually we will get that game we will love again. Still believe this might take still another 3/4 years from now before such a game even starts it's development. This doesn't mean some of the upcomming MMORPG will be bad, cause I am sure plenty will enjoy them and perhaps there might slip in one that I might enjoy aswell on a MMORPG lvl instead of these Action Online Game lvl.
The problem I have with this is that there ARE games like that already, yet people ignore them. UO, SWG (still is sandbox), Saga of Ryzom, Roma Victor, Darkfall, EvE, and Fallen Earth (to some extent). So it's not like there aren't games to play, if you like that sort of thing.
UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much.
Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I think Nate1980 has nailed it. We are becoming just too picky for our own good.
I have to wonder, if some company were to release our "dream" MMO would we embrace it, or would we pick it apart and complain?
It seems like many here have simply set their bars of expectation way too high.
That's not to say the current crop of games don't need some inspiration and a good kick in the ass, but have to I wonder if there isn't truth to the old saying:
"I have met the enemy, and he is us."
I disagree, I think we are becoming too complacent. I don't think a dream MMO exists and furthermore, if we set the bar to mediocrity then what would we have? We'd have what we have now which is a list of cookie cutter MMOs with the exact same features...
"As soon as you become complacent your show gets canceled." - Dick Wolf.
Also, I'd like to point out I didn't create this thread to complain despite numerous claims. Furthermore, this post was created to discuss the potentials of MMOs now and what we are missing in MMO's today not what is already there.
So again, Nate, and others, comments about complaining and pining are completely off topic.
I've been replying to yours and other members posts in this thread. If I've been off topic, it's not something I started. Welcome to socializing, where conversations don't always go the way you intended.
Being a former infantry Marine, and serving in Iraq, I know full well what complacency can do to a person and a unit. I also know what adapting is. A phrase commonly heard in the Marine Corps is "adapt and overcome." You see complacency, whereas I see people adapting and overcoming.
You keep saying "cookie-cutter" MMO's. There is nothing wrong with "cookie-cutter" MMO's, in fact, that very term means the game is following the mold that is to be expected of a game in that genre. That's not bad, nor is it innovative. A game doesn't need to be innovative to be good or worth playing. I've seen a genre that's evolved, not remained stagnant.
Since WoW, quite a few uniquish games have released, such as Tabula Rasa, Roma Victor, Dungeons and Dragons Online, LoTRO, AoC, Guild Wars, and Vanguard just to name a few. Sure, some of these games shared similarities to others, but they also were different in some ways. That's how games in the same genre typically work. They aren't drastically different from each other, but hold common traits, and have a few features that make them stand out from the competition.
Now if for 5 years, every single game that was released was EXACTLY like WoW and people bought into it, regardless of the quality of the game released, I'd call that complacency. However, that's not the case and the genre hasn't been releasing nothing but "cookie cutter" games. I see a genre that has released something for everyone over the last few years, but people are being picky, because the game meant for them wasn't exactly the way their dream game is built inside their head.
I am not really interested in getting pulled into some sarcastic battle with you so I'm just gonna stop replying to you. Frankly, I'm surprised you kept at it seeing as you are not interested in the topic at hand. Good luck.
There are other sandbox game on the market, and some more being developed. Go play, have fun.
I don't see it so much as theme park vs sandbox. I'ts more like wow vs everything else.
I'll think second before investing 100 million in developing a new mmorpg. Because really, UO at it's peak have 250,000 players, how is it going to recover.
I think you -drastically- over-estimate the number of people willing to pay a monthly fee to play a game. And this is aside from the social stigma attached to these sorts of games. There will never be another MMO that has the subscription rates of WoW, simply because it is the most socially-acceptable game in the genre.
I think you drastically have no idea why WoW has such large numbers. Lets take a look at the MMO audience before WoW came along:
The Big Three
1. Ultima Online
2. Everquest
3. Star Wars Galaxies
Others:
Lineage, Asheron's Call, and Runescape - just to name a few.
Total subscribers of these three (which logically would make up the MMO fanbase) total approximately 1-2 million. Where were the other millions that are currently playing WoW? I'll tell you, they were playing Warcraft, the RTS. They had no idea MMOs even existed. Thus, which explains why most of them think Blizzard invented the genre in the first place.
What about all these people who didn't come from RTS to play WoW? Many of my friends who would never have touched an MMO with a ten-foot-pole came from the FPS world (Quake, Day of Defeat, Battlefield). Why? Two reasons: some of their friends (who had friends in the RTS world) told them what an "OMG awesome game" it was; and (most importantly) lack of options. Since WoW was released there have only been a few quality games released in the FPS genre that have been worth a crap. Also remember, FPS games are not full time. You log on, you play until you are satisfied, then you log off and go about your day. MMORPGs have always been a full-time genre, due to the effort, immersion, and general community interaction they are composed of.
Then you have the friend of a friend effect who fit in none of these categories, and may very well not have ever been a gamer before. One person (RTS or FPS convertee) likes the game, tells a friends who just has a computer. Since they can play it, they do. They tell two friends. So on and so forth. Another newcomer crowd is born.
So think of it this way. 2 million MMO players are happy as daisies in their genre of choice. All of a sudden, 8 million monkeys who troll threads and claim ultimate elitism come barging through the gates riding on the back of their favorite gaming company. Not because it was the next MMO, but because it was the company's next gaming title. None other reasons! Those of us who had a voice were instantly transformed into the minority. Not because of what the MMO community is, but because those who now make up the majority want nothing other than what was spoon fed to them by their one and only true love, Blizzard.
Well let's just say I agree with most of what you want out of a MMORPG, today's gen. is far to limited, yet we may NEVER ignore that the majority seems to fully enjoy these games, but I am sure there is room for more and eventually we will get that game we will love again. Still believe this might take still another 3/4 years from now before such a game even starts it's development. This doesn't mean some of the upcomming MMORPG will be bad, cause I am sure plenty will enjoy them and perhaps there might slip in one that I might enjoy aswell on a MMORPG lvl instead of these Action Online Game lvl.
The problem I have with this is that there ARE games like that already, yet people ignore them. UO, SWG (still is sandbox), Saga of Ryzom, Roma Victor, Darkfall, EvE, and Fallen Earth (to some extent). So it's not like there aren't games to play, if you like that sort of thing.
UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much.
Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I explained myself yet you asume those games fit my description? If they truly fit my description wouldn't you think I would be playing them? Am I picky?, sure after playing games for 30+ years I see nothing wrong with being picky. Also I do not complain about Themepark games as like I alway's say that I know for a fact that many are enjoying them, I merly dislike them personaly but that never makes them bad games to me.
If reading a forum made me as unhappy as you appear to be, I would probably stop reading that forum.... Who are you to come here on these forums and tell us what to talk about? If you don't like the discussions on this forum then maybe you should find another forum. It's not all about you....
I'm not unhappy. I'm at work, and *bored*. Reading the same threads, again and again.
I'll answer the question in this thread, quite easily; whatever happened to MMORPGS? The people that played them from the beginning never left the basement, and are bitter about it. The genre moved on, became mainstream and accessible to those that have lives away from a keyboard, and the 'old-timers' can't stand it. The 'old-timers' had their little virtual worlds invaded by normal people, and don't know how to react. So, they sit, remembering games for them, by them, comprised of them, unable to recapture that magic they felt when they first logged into something new.
Guess what. That's GONE. It's not coming back, and the genre will never go back in that direction. People don't play MMOs nowdays to be in some rich, immersive world...because they already live in a REAL rich and immersive world. And I, for one, don't play -games- so I can have a second, non-paying job that takes up all the rest of my free time. MMOs are pass-times now, and I'm glad companies like Blizzard came along and dragged the genre out of the basement .
You are making yourself sound like a raged jackass. Just don't read it then. I'm willing to bet that when your favorite MMORPG becomes a relic and afterthought, and the genre takes a drastic different direction that it will be YOU on here talking about the way it once was and how it needs to be somewhat refocused in that direction. It's a vicious circle.
Also, MMORPG's are meant to be long persistent games. If you don't want to put time and effort into a game, play console games, that is what they are for. Blizzard dragged the genre through the mud, NOT out of the basement as you say. Apparently you are stereotyping every player who has been in the genre since it's birth as 40 year old people living in their parents basement. Not the case by a long shot I assure you.
If reading a forum made me as unhappy as you appear to be, I would probably stop reading that forum.... Who are you to come here on these forums and tell us what to talk about? If you don't like the discussions on this forum then maybe you should find another forum. It's not all about you....
I'm not unhappy. I'm at work, and *bored*. Reading the same threads, again and again.
I'll answer the question in this thread, quite easily; whatever happened to MMORPGS? The people that played them from the beginning never left the basement, and are bitter about it. The genre moved on, became mainstream and accessible to those that have lives away from a keyboard, and the 'old-timers' can't stand it. The 'old-timers' had their little virtual worlds invaded by normal people, and don't know how to react. So, they sit, remembering games for them, by them, comprised of them, unable to recapture that magic they felt when they first logged into something new.
Guess what. That's GONE. It's not coming back, and the genre will never go back in that direction. People don't play MMOs nowdays to be in some rich, immersive world...because they already live in a REAL rich and immersive world. And I, for one, don't play -games- so I can have a second, non-paying job that takes up all the rest of my free time. MMOs are pass-times now, and I'm glad companies like Blizzard came along and dragged the genre out of the basement .
I think you -drastically- over-estimate the number of people willing to pay a monthly fee to play a game. And this is aside from the social stigma attached to these sorts of games. There will never be another MMO that has the subscription rates of WoW, simply because it is the most socially-acceptable game in the genre.
I think you drastically have no idea why WoW has such large numbers. Lets take a look at the MMO audience before WoW came along:
The Big Three
1. Ultima Online
2. Everquest
3. Star Wars Galaxies
Others:
Lineage, Asheron's Call, and Runescape - just to name a few.
Total subscribers of these three (which logically would make up the MMO fanbase) total approximately 1-2 million. Where were the other millions that are currently playing WoW? I'll tell you, they were playing Warcraft, the RTS. They had no idea MMOs even existed. Thus, which explains why most of them think Blizzard invented the genre in the first place.
What about all these people who didn't come from RTS to play WoW? Many of my friends who would never have touched an MMO with a ten-foot-pole came from the FPS world (Quake, Day of Defeat, Battlefield). Why? Two reasons: some of their friends (who had friends in the RTS world) told them what an "OMG awesome game" it was; and (most importantly) lack of options. Since WoW was released there have only been a few quality games released in the FPS genre that have been worth a crap. Also remember, FPS games are not full time. You log on, you play until you are satisfied, then you log off and go about your day. MMORPGs have always been a full-time genre, due to the effort, immersion, and general community interaction they are composed of.
Then you have the friend of a friend effect who fit in none of these categories, and may very well not have ever been a gamer before. One person (RTS or FPS convertee) likes the game, tells a friends who just has a computer. Since they can play it, they do. They tell two friends. So on and so forth. Another newcomer crowd is born.
So think of it this way. 2 million MMO players are happy as daisies in their genre of choice. All of a sudden, 8 million monkeys who troll threads and claim ultimate elitism come barging through the gates riding on the back of their favorite gaming company. Not because it was the next MMO, but because it was the company's next gaming title. None other reasons! Those of us who had a voice were instantly transformed into the minority. Not because of what the MMO community is, but because those who now make up the majority want nothing other than what was spoon fed to them by their one and only true love, Blizzard.
EXACTLY! Completely agree.
They can scream QQ all they want...when it's 5 to 10 years down the road from now and their respective MMO's are being pushed aside and their community is the minority (Which WILL happen), they can see what it is like and why we speak up.
It is more about the players. I used to play several hours straight in dungeon crawls or RvR in DAoC. While I admit that stuff was a blast, probably more fun than I've had since, I just don't have that time anymore. I don't think it's even ethical for a company to design content that lasts more than 3 hours. This is because there's a whole lot of neglect going on when you're sitting in a chair for longer than that, whether it be neglecting yourself (sleep, eating, hygiene) or others (kids, spouses, friends, school, work). I actually think that's the next thing to go in this genre: Raiding. While I think WoW is getting it right by allowing raids to be saved to the raid group for a week, players aren't taking advantage of it. Instead of doing the healthy thing, making raid runs 2-3 hours per run, they're making them last until completion. I recently went back to WoW after getting geared out from Naxx. I was hoping to start Ulduar and have it done before the Lich Kings raid came out, but my guild raided from 10pm-2am, which usually meant they got started at 11pm, and ended after 2-3am. That just doesn't fly with me, since I have to be up in the mornings. After you try several guilds and then settle on one where you have friends, it's not really feasible to leave one raid group and find another with times that cater to you. Especially when the majority of the community shows a trend of raiding 6 hours at a time. So I left. This is why I now don't mind quest-based, solo-oriented games, because at least I can play those without having to commit more than 3 hours at a time. A MMO with a good story that can be done solo, that also has some group content is enough of a MMO to me. It's okay to have raids in the game, but when the majority of the story or quality content is designed for that, no thanks. It's an aged feature and it's next on the chopping block.
Probably the best we can hope for now is to play games that we like (or at least tolerate), and just try to get into (or start) a guild of similar-thinking people. For me, I don't mind that the time sinks are largely over, I mainly miss the atmosphere which was largely player created... and I'm probably just SOL there other than what can be generated in guild.
One of the things that kind of makes me laugh though is the fact that one of the main goals of companies making MMO's is to make money. To make that money, they want to keep people playing their MMO as long as possible, especially since the customer is paying a monthly fee to play it.
Yet, they make things SO EASY that a player can blow through the content in a month, maybe a bit longer. Then the player gets bored and moves on, defeating the goal they were trying for, or the player sits and complains relentlessly for more content or the lack of content until they give up and move on. Or the company hurries and throws some content out there that satisfies the customer for maybe a few weeks longer until their is the same outcome of complaint again anyways, or then they complain when it's buggy, incomplete, etc and get frustrated and move on and continue the vicious cycle of complaint.
There is just no satisfying the MMO community these days. Either you have the above scenario happen, or you have the old school players (Such as myself) pleading for some challenge again, and some of the old length to the MMO journey, which may or may not have to include SOME grind and/or timesink (Which I say if incorporated right can STILL be made fun), and the newer crowd complains that they don't want that because they don't want to have to invest time and some sweat into their gaming experience. Which then leads the developer's to satisfying the majority new age crowd with their design, until the above scenario happens. And they alienate the crowd that kept MMO's going (Us old schooler's) up until WoW came along and altered the MMO genre (Somewhat for the better, but more so for the worse community-wise and expectations-wise).
One of the things that kind of makes me laugh though is the fact that one of the main goals of companies making MMO's is to make money. To make that money, they want to keep people playing their MMO as long as possible, especially since the customer is paying a monthly fee to play it.
Yet, they make things SO EASY that a player can blow through the content in a month, maybe a bit longer. Then the player gets bored and moves on, defeating the goal they were trying for, or the player sits and complains relentlessly for more content or the lack of content until they give up and move on. Or the company hurries and throws some content out there that satisfies the customer for maybe a few weeks longer until their is the same outcome of complaint again anyways, or then they complain when it's buggy, incomplete, etc and get frustrated and move on and continue the vicious cycle of complaint.
There is just no satisfying the MMO community these days. Either you have the above scenario happen, or you have the old school players (Such as myself) pleading for some challenge again, and some of the old length to the MMO journey, which may or may not have to include SOME grind and/or timesink (Which I say if incorporated right can STILL be made fun), and the newer crowd complains that they don't want that because they don't want to have to invest time and some sweat into their gaming experience. Which then leads the developer's to satisfying the majority new age crowd with their design, until the above scenario happens. And they alienate the crowd that kept MMO's going (Us old schooler's) up until WoW came along and altered the MMO genre (Somewhat for the better, but more so for the worse community-wise and expectations-wise).
There is one thing I definitely agree with the "newer" mmorg players, and that is, I HATE grinding. Sitting there plinking on virtual critters level after level just isn't fun. Instead of lowering xp or adding more grind back in, they need to broaden what other activities can be done in the game world that players would also find satisfying. Things that add other benefits than just XP.. maybe more opportunities for making money.... or acquiring items.... maybe benie things that don't give a direct advantage, but make playing the game more interesting or fun.
I also don't have the time to spend hours raiding, so maybe whatever these other things would be would broaden at higher levels.
Things about early EQ that was kinda cool: people could actually make money crafting armor, since armor was extremely expensive and hard to get a hold of; the terrain was so hostile, that people would offer to escort people from one side of the continent to the other, and because of distribution of goods, there was active trade between the opposite sides of the continent, fueled by people basically running trade caravans.
I don't feel it has to be done that way, making everything so dang hard, but it'd be nice to give players more activities to participate in, like trading, politics, etc... stuff like what was supposed to be offered in Vanguard, but was never really implimented (and certainly not implimented well).
Originally posted by Palebane Well said. I definitely see it from your perspective. I have to wonder then, doesn't $15/month seem kind of steep in that situation? I mean, if you are running around solo and interested in a good story, wouldn't a single player game seem like more of a value? There are tons of good ones out right now.
There are some major differences between MMO's and single-player games. First off, it takes longer to finish a MMORPG than it does to finish a SPG. So there is more value in the MMORPG, than the SPG. Secondly, the MMORPG has group content, allows for a player economy, and other player interaction, whereas a SPG does not.
SPG's have a better story, which more choices, usually a better character customization and progression system, and the good ones allow your decisions to effect future gameplay. So there are benefits of playing a SPG, which is why I play those alongside MMORPG's. But even with all of that, most SPG's don't last more than a week when played the same amount of time as a MMORPG, whereas a MMO will give you at least enough content to get you through the first 30 days, making it more valuable already than the SPG. The subscription you may per month is only worth it when you have something to do. I typically quit a MMO after I finish it, unless I can play through it again without repeating much content. So if you want to look at it a different way, playing MMO's are like playing several SPG's worth of content in one box.
I'm excited to see Biowares SWTOR, because it promises the advantages of both MMORPG's and SPG's, and I believe they can pull it off, because if I can envision it and tell them how to do it, then I'm sure the professionals have no problem doing it.
I hear what you are saying. The other big difference is, that when you aren't playing the SPG, you aren't wasting your sub. For example, I've played Fallout 3 off and on for over 100 hours. I can pick that game up and play it whenever I want and not have to worry about whether or not I'm wasting my money. but if I log into WoW only once or twice a week, I feel like I'm wasting money. It has gotten to the point sometimes where I'm only playing the MMOs because the sub is still active. Of course none of my old friends play anymore, and it seems harder now than ever (perhaps it's just me) to meet new people to become friends with. Time will tell.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by Palebane Well said. I definitely see it from your perspective. I have to wonder then, doesn't $15/month seem kind of steep in that situation? I mean, if you are running around solo and interested in a good story, wouldn't a single player game seem like more of a value? There are tons of good ones out right now.
There are some major differences between MMO's and single-player games. First off, it takes longer to finish a MMORPG than it does to finish a SPG. So there is more value in the MMORPG, than the SPG. Secondly, the MMORPG has group content, allows for a player economy, and other player interaction, whereas a SPG does not.
SPG's have a better story, which more choices, usually a better character customization and progression system, and the good ones allow your decisions to effect future gameplay. So there are benefits of playing a SPG, which is why I play those alongside MMORPG's. But even with all of that, most SPG's don't last more than a week when played the same amount of time as a MMORPG, whereas a MMO will give you at least enough content to get you through the first 30 days, making it more valuable already than the SPG. The subscription you may per month is only worth it when you have something to do. I typically quit a MMO after I finish it, unless I can play through it again without repeating much content. So if you want to look at it a different way, playing MMO's are like playing several SPG's worth of content in one box.
I'm excited to see Biowares SWTOR, because it promises the advantages of both MMORPG's and SPG's, and I believe they can pull it off, because if I can envision it and tell them how to do it, then I'm sure the professionals have no problem doing it.
I hear what you are saying. The other big difference is, that when you aren't playing the SPG, you aren't wasting your sub. For example, I've played Fallout 3 off and on for over 100 hours. I can pick that game up and play it whenever I want and not have to worry about whether or not I'm wasting my money. but if I log into WoW only once or twice a week, I feel like I'm wasting money. It has gotten to the point sometimes where I'm only playing the MMOs because the sub is still active. Of course none of my old friends play anymore, and it seems harder now than ever (perhaps it's just me) to meet new people to become friends with. Time will tell.
I never felt the pressure to log in just because I had a subscription. We've all seen the comparisons before, but let me remind you what $15 can buy you as far as entertainment, other than MMORPG's. You can watch one movie, get some popcorn, and a drink for around $15. You could rent a 2-3 videos or games from a store for $15. You can have 3-4 drinks at a bar for $15. I think you get my point. There's no reason to feel pressured to play a game, just because you are subscribed to it. Even if you played the game only twice a week, a few hours each session, you're still getting more entertainment for you money than your other options.
I've spoken to a lot of developers and the general belief is as long as they can tap into a larger youth population of gamers then the older gamers, they will. The reason being young players have a much smaller spectrum of expectations and thus the developers can manipulate the games to be easier to make money off of via making the games easier to manage. Easier to manage usually means easier to program and more repetitious. As long as there are more youths playing MMORPGS then adults, they will continue this pattern forever. IE things may change, but extremely rarely and extremely slowly and never really in the direction people will want.
It is most interesting to see the banter here because it emphasizes the diversity of perspective we have for this issue.
Old pen and paper gamers (like me) tend to favor roleplaying, socializing, tactics, and strategies based upon whatever game we are playing's world and storyline. Immersion is usually very important to us and viscerally living out the lives of our created characters make things more enjoyable for us. We older gamers also seem to have a penchant for having a lot of "alts"... hey, when you have created over 100 pen and paper characters, what's going to change when you play an MMO?
Video gamers seem to have a little more of that "quick reflex, fast action" desire to be seen in game. How could you not want action when you grew up playing in the arcade games like "Defender", "Zaxxon", "Tempest" etc...
Computer gamers are all over the board but I suspect lean towards tactics and strategy games or shooter styled games... which makes me wonder if any game company will ever have the cojones to ever make a turn based gamed MMO.. hmmm...
And of course you have the hardcore MMO players.. well they are all over the map as well but seem to favor the gathering of loot, reaching the highest level quickly and sometimes just blowing through a game.. for what reasons I don't really understand.
Of course, I know I am generalizing here but its these different perspectives that keep this debate alive. And debate is good and needed! We need to continue to discuss where MMOs have been and where they are going so that they WILL become better and WILL include more immersion, more chances to be creative and unique... this is good stuff all, lets keep thinking how we want to see MMOs progress and what we really want to see in an MMO beyond the grind, beyond the leet, the loot and all the other things that make games not so fun for so many players.
Comments
The problem I have with this is that there ARE games like that already, yet people ignore them. UO, SWG (still is sandbox), Saga of Ryzom, Roma Victor, Darkfall, EvE, and Fallen Earth (to some extent). So it's not like there aren't games to play, if you like that sort of thing.
UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much.
Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I think Nate1980 has nailed it. We are becoming just too picky for our own good.
I have to wonder, if some company were to release our "dream" MMO would we embrace it, or would we pick it apart and complain?
It seems like many here have simply set their bars of expectation way too high.
That's not to say the current crop of games don't need some inspiration and a good kick in the ass, but have to I wonder if there isn't truth to the old saying:
"I have met the enemy, and he is us."
I disagree, I think we are becoming too complacent. I don't think a dream MMO exists and furthermore, if we set the bar to mediocrity then what would we have? We'd have what we have now which is a list of cookie cutter MMOs with the exact same features...
"As soon as you become complacent your show gets canceled." - Dick Wolf.
Also, I'd like to point out I didn't create this thread to complain despite numerous claims. Furthermore, this post was created to discuss the potentials of MMOs now and what we are missing in MMO's today not what is already there.
So again, Nate, and others, comments about complaining and pining are completely off topic.
I've been replying to yours and other members posts in this thread. If I've been off topic, it's not something I started. Welcome to socializing, where conversations don't always go the way you intended.
Being a former infantry Marine, and serving in Iraq, I know full well what complacency can do to a person and a unit. I also know what adapting is. A phrase commonly heard in the Marine Corps is "adapt and overcome." You see complacency, whereas I see people adapting and overcoming.
You keep saying "cookie-cutter" MMO's. There is nothing wrong with "cookie-cutter" MMO's, in fact, that very term means the game is following the mold that is to be expected of a game in that genre. That's not bad, nor is it innovative. A game doesn't need to be innovative to be good or worth playing. I've seen a genre that's evolved, not remained stagnant.
Since WoW, quite a few uniquish games have released, such as Tabula Rasa, Roma Victor, Dungeons and Dragons Online, LoTRO, AoC, Guild Wars, and Vanguard just to name a few. Sure, some of these games shared similarities to others, but they also were different in some ways. That's how games in the same genre typically work. They aren't drastically different from each other, but hold common traits, and have a few features that make them stand out from the competition.
Now if for 5 years, every single game that was released was EXACTLY like WoW and people bought into it, regardless of the quality of the game released, I'd call that complacency. However, that's not the case and the genre hasn't been releasing nothing but "cookie cutter" games. I see a genre that has released something for everyone over the last few years, but people are being picky, because the game meant for them wasn't exactly the way their dream game is built inside their head.
I am not really interested in getting pulled into some sarcastic battle with you so I'm just gonna stop replying to you. Frankly, I'm surprised you kept at it seeing as you are not interested in the topic at hand. Good luck.
There are other sandbox game on the market, and some more being developed. Go play, have fun.
I don't see it so much as theme park vs sandbox. I'ts more like wow vs everything else.
I'll think second before investing 100 million in developing a new mmorpg. Because really, UO at it's peak have 250,000 players, how is it going to recover.
I think you drastically have no idea why WoW has such large numbers. Lets take a look at the MMO audience before WoW came along:
The Big Three
1. Ultima Online
2. Everquest
3. Star Wars Galaxies
Others:
Lineage, Asheron's Call, and Runescape - just to name a few.
Total subscribers of these three (which logically would make up the MMO fanbase) total approximately 1-2 million. Where were the other millions that are currently playing WoW? I'll tell you, they were playing Warcraft, the RTS. They had no idea MMOs even existed. Thus, which explains why most of them think Blizzard invented the genre in the first place.
What about all these people who didn't come from RTS to play WoW? Many of my friends who would never have touched an MMO with a ten-foot-pole came from the FPS world (Quake, Day of Defeat, Battlefield). Why? Two reasons: some of their friends (who had friends in the RTS world) told them what an "OMG awesome game" it was; and (most importantly) lack of options. Since WoW was released there have only been a few quality games released in the FPS genre that have been worth a crap. Also remember, FPS games are not full time. You log on, you play until you are satisfied, then you log off and go about your day. MMORPGs have always been a full-time genre, due to the effort, immersion, and general community interaction they are composed of.
Then you have the friend of a friend effect who fit in none of these categories, and may very well not have ever been a gamer before. One person (RTS or FPS convertee) likes the game, tells a friends who just has a computer. Since they can play it, they do. They tell two friends. So on and so forth. Another newcomer crowd is born.
So think of it this way. 2 million MMO players are happy as daisies in their genre of choice. All of a sudden, 8 million monkeys who troll threads and claim ultimate elitism come barging through the gates riding on the back of their favorite gaming company. Not because it was the next MMO, but because it was the company's next gaming title. None other reasons! Those of us who had a voice were instantly transformed into the minority. Not because of what the MMO community is, but because those who now make up the majority want nothing other than what was spoon fed to them by their one and only true love, Blizzard.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The problem I have with this is that there ARE games like that already, yet people ignore them. UO, SWG (still is sandbox), Saga of Ryzom, Roma Victor, Darkfall, EvE, and Fallen Earth (to some extent). So it's not like there aren't games to play, if you like that sort of thing.
UO and SWG been there done that, SoR I like the game, just not like the RMT that comes with it, yeah yeah I can play without the use of it, but I prefure normal sub-fee MMORPG's, Roma Victor, simply not my kind of game, same goes for Darkfall to combat oriented for my taste, EVE I love it's feature's, the setting (Space) just not the whole me being a spaceship, might give it another go with Incarna (formely know as Walking on Stations) And last but not least Fallen Earth, was glad to help during beta and definitly has allot of things I like to be in a MMORPG, just the setting/graphics-animation doesn't appeal me that much.
Don't asume those games are ignored as I know what's out there, I either tested/beta'd/trial or subbed to them.
Okay, so in one fell sweep, you've eliminated a handful of games that fit your description off your list. What makes themepark games any less succeptible to the same type of eliminations as you did for sandbox games? So really, there's no reason to complain about a lack of games to play, it's just that you're picky. Someone who likes EQ style games may come on here complaining about all the dull themepark games in the genre, and may complain that developers aren't creating good themepark games, just as you or others like you complain that there isn't a good sandbox game.
I explained myself yet you asume those games fit my description? If they truly fit my description wouldn't you think I would be playing them? Am I picky?, sure after playing games for 30+ years I see nothing wrong with being picky. Also I do not complain about Themepark games as like I alway's say that I know for a fact that many are enjoying them, I merly dislike them personaly but that never makes them bad games to me.
I'm not unhappy. I'm at work, and *bored*. Reading the same threads, again and again.
I'll answer the question in this thread, quite easily; whatever happened to MMORPGS? The people that played them from the beginning never left the basement, and are bitter about it. The genre moved on, became mainstream and accessible to those that have lives away from a keyboard, and the 'old-timers' can't stand it. The 'old-timers' had their little virtual worlds invaded by normal people, and don't know how to react. So, they sit, remembering games for them, by them, comprised of them, unable to recapture that magic they felt when they first logged into something new.
Guess what. That's GONE. It's not coming back, and the genre will never go back in that direction. People don't play MMOs nowdays to be in some rich, immersive world...because they already live in a REAL rich and immersive world. And I, for one, don't play -games- so I can have a second, non-paying job that takes up all the rest of my free time. MMOs are pass-times now, and I'm glad companies like Blizzard came along and dragged the genre out of the basement .
You are making yourself sound like a raged jackass. Just don't read it then. I'm willing to bet that when your favorite MMORPG becomes a relic and afterthought, and the genre takes a drastic different direction that it will be YOU on here talking about the way it once was and how it needs to be somewhat refocused in that direction. It's a vicious circle.
Also, MMORPG's are meant to be long persistent games. If you don't want to put time and effort into a game, play console games, that is what they are for. Blizzard dragged the genre through the mud, NOT out of the basement as you say. Apparently you are stereotyping every player who has been in the genre since it's birth as 40 year old people living in their parents basement. Not the case by a long shot I assure you.
I'm not unhappy. I'm at work, and *bored*. Reading the same threads, again and again.
I'll answer the question in this thread, quite easily; whatever happened to MMORPGS? The people that played them from the beginning never left the basement, and are bitter about it. The genre moved on, became mainstream and accessible to those that have lives away from a keyboard, and the 'old-timers' can't stand it. The 'old-timers' had their little virtual worlds invaded by normal people, and don't know how to react. So, they sit, remembering games for them, by them, comprised of them, unable to recapture that magic they felt when they first logged into something new.
Guess what. That's GONE. It's not coming back, and the genre will never go back in that direction. People don't play MMOs nowdays to be in some rich, immersive world...because they already live in a REAL rich and immersive world. And I, for one, don't play -games- so I can have a second, non-paying job that takes up all the rest of my free time. MMOs are pass-times now, and I'm glad companies like Blizzard came along and dragged the genre out of the basement .
That made me chuckle.
I think you drastically have no idea why WoW has such large numbers. Lets take a look at the MMO audience before WoW came along:
The Big Three
1. Ultima Online
2. Everquest
3. Star Wars Galaxies
Others:
Lineage, Asheron's Call, and Runescape - just to name a few.
Total subscribers of these three (which logically would make up the MMO fanbase) total approximately 1-2 million. Where were the other millions that are currently playing WoW? I'll tell you, they were playing Warcraft, the RTS. They had no idea MMOs even existed. Thus, which explains why most of them think Blizzard invented the genre in the first place.
What about all these people who didn't come from RTS to play WoW? Many of my friends who would never have touched an MMO with a ten-foot-pole came from the FPS world (Quake, Day of Defeat, Battlefield). Why? Two reasons: some of their friends (who had friends in the RTS world) told them what an "OMG awesome game" it was; and (most importantly) lack of options. Since WoW was released there have only been a few quality games released in the FPS genre that have been worth a crap. Also remember, FPS games are not full time. You log on, you play until you are satisfied, then you log off and go about your day. MMORPGs have always been a full-time genre, due to the effort, immersion, and general community interaction they are composed of.
Then you have the friend of a friend effect who fit in none of these categories, and may very well not have ever been a gamer before. One person (RTS or FPS convertee) likes the game, tells a friends who just has a computer. Since they can play it, they do. They tell two friends. So on and so forth. Another newcomer crowd is born.
So think of it this way. 2 million MMO players are happy as daisies in their genre of choice. All of a sudden, 8 million monkeys who troll threads and claim ultimate elitism come barging through the gates riding on the back of their favorite gaming company. Not because it was the next MMO, but because it was the company's next gaming title. None other reasons! Those of us who had a voice were instantly transformed into the minority. Not because of what the MMO community is, but because those who now make up the majority want nothing other than what was spoon fed to them by their one and only true love, Blizzard.
EXACTLY! Completely agree.
They can scream QQ all they want...when it's 5 to 10 years down the road from now and their respective MMO's are being pushed aside and their community is the minority (Which WILL happen), they can see what it is like and why we speak up.
Probably the best we can hope for now is to play games that we like (or at least tolerate), and just try to get into (or start) a guild of similar-thinking people. For me, I don't mind that the time sinks are largely over, I mainly miss the atmosphere which was largely player created... and I'm probably just SOL there other than what can be generated in guild.
One of the things that kind of makes me laugh though is the fact that one of the main goals of companies making MMO's is to make money. To make that money, they want to keep people playing their MMO as long as possible, especially since the customer is paying a monthly fee to play it.
Yet, they make things SO EASY that a player can blow through the content in a month, maybe a bit longer. Then the player gets bored and moves on, defeating the goal they were trying for, or the player sits and complains relentlessly for more content or the lack of content until they give up and move on. Or the company hurries and throws some content out there that satisfies the customer for maybe a few weeks longer until their is the same outcome of complaint again anyways, or then they complain when it's buggy, incomplete, etc and get frustrated and move on and continue the vicious cycle of complaint.
There is just no satisfying the MMO community these days. Either you have the above scenario happen, or you have the old school players (Such as myself) pleading for some challenge again, and some of the old length to the MMO journey, which may or may not have to include SOME grind and/or timesink (Which I say if incorporated right can STILL be made fun), and the newer crowd complains that they don't want that because they don't want to have to invest time and some sweat into their gaming experience. Which then leads the developer's to satisfying the majority new age crowd with their design, until the above scenario happens. And they alienate the crowd that kept MMO's going (Us old schooler's) up until WoW came along and altered the MMO genre (Somewhat for the better, but more so for the worse community-wise and expectations-wise).
There is one thing I definitely agree with the "newer" mmorg players, and that is, I HATE grinding. Sitting there plinking on virtual critters level after level just isn't fun. Instead of lowering xp or adding more grind back in, they need to broaden what other activities can be done in the game world that players would also find satisfying. Things that add other benefits than just XP.. maybe more opportunities for making money.... or acquiring items.... maybe benie things that don't give a direct advantage, but make playing the game more interesting or fun.
I also don't have the time to spend hours raiding, so maybe whatever these other things would be would broaden at higher levels.
Things about early EQ that was kinda cool: people could actually make money crafting armor, since armor was extremely expensive and hard to get a hold of; the terrain was so hostile, that people would offer to escort people from one side of the continent to the other, and because of distribution of goods, there was active trade between the opposite sides of the continent, fueled by people basically running trade caravans.
I don't feel it has to be done that way, making everything so dang hard, but it'd be nice to give players more activities to participate in, like trading, politics, etc... stuff like what was supposed to be offered in Vanguard, but was never really implimented (and certainly not implimented well).
There are some major differences between MMO's and single-player games. First off, it takes longer to finish a MMORPG than it does to finish a SPG. So there is more value in the MMORPG, than the SPG. Secondly, the MMORPG has group content, allows for a player economy, and other player interaction, whereas a SPG does not.
SPG's have a better story, which more choices, usually a better character customization and progression system, and the good ones allow your decisions to effect future gameplay. So there are benefits of playing a SPG, which is why I play those alongside MMORPG's. But even with all of that, most SPG's don't last more than a week when played the same amount of time as a MMORPG, whereas a MMO will give you at least enough content to get you through the first 30 days, making it more valuable already than the SPG. The subscription you may per month is only worth it when you have something to do. I typically quit a MMO after I finish it, unless I can play through it again without repeating much content. So if you want to look at it a different way, playing MMO's are like playing several SPG's worth of content in one box.
I'm excited to see Biowares SWTOR, because it promises the advantages of both MMORPG's and SPG's, and I believe they can pull it off, because if I can envision it and tell them how to do it, then I'm sure the professionals have no problem doing it.
I hear what you are saying. The other big difference is, that when you aren't playing the SPG, you aren't wasting your sub. For example, I've played Fallout 3 off and on for over 100 hours. I can pick that game up and play it whenever I want and not have to worry about whether or not I'm wasting my money. but if I log into WoW only once or twice a week, I feel like I'm wasting money. It has gotten to the point sometimes where I'm only playing the MMOs because the sub is still active. Of course none of my old friends play anymore, and it seems harder now than ever (perhaps it's just me) to meet new people to become friends with. Time will tell.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I'd just like to respond to the OP... Yes, I do remember Ultima Online and all those great things... In fact, I'm still playing it.
There are some major differences between MMO's and single-player games. First off, it takes longer to finish a MMORPG than it does to finish a SPG. So there is more value in the MMORPG, than the SPG. Secondly, the MMORPG has group content, allows for a player economy, and other player interaction, whereas a SPG does not.
SPG's have a better story, which more choices, usually a better character customization and progression system, and the good ones allow your decisions to effect future gameplay. So there are benefits of playing a SPG, which is why I play those alongside MMORPG's. But even with all of that, most SPG's don't last more than a week when played the same amount of time as a MMORPG, whereas a MMO will give you at least enough content to get you through the first 30 days, making it more valuable already than the SPG. The subscription you may per month is only worth it when you have something to do. I typically quit a MMO after I finish it, unless I can play through it again without repeating much content. So if you want to look at it a different way, playing MMO's are like playing several SPG's worth of content in one box.
I'm excited to see Biowares SWTOR, because it promises the advantages of both MMORPG's and SPG's, and I believe they can pull it off, because if I can envision it and tell them how to do it, then I'm sure the professionals have no problem doing it.
I hear what you are saying. The other big difference is, that when you aren't playing the SPG, you aren't wasting your sub. For example, I've played Fallout 3 off and on for over 100 hours. I can pick that game up and play it whenever I want and not have to worry about whether or not I'm wasting my money. but if I log into WoW only once or twice a week, I feel like I'm wasting money. It has gotten to the point sometimes where I'm only playing the MMOs because the sub is still active. Of course none of my old friends play anymore, and it seems harder now than ever (perhaps it's just me) to meet new people to become friends with. Time will tell.
I never felt the pressure to log in just because I had a subscription. We've all seen the comparisons before, but let me remind you what $15 can buy you as far as entertainment, other than MMORPG's. You can watch one movie, get some popcorn, and a drink for around $15. You could rent a 2-3 videos or games from a store for $15. You can have 3-4 drinks at a bar for $15. I think you get my point. There's no reason to feel pressured to play a game, just because you are subscribed to it. Even if you played the game only twice a week, a few hours each session, you're still getting more entertainment for you money than your other options.
I've spoken to a lot of developers and the general belief is as long as they can tap into a larger youth population of gamers then the older gamers, they will. The reason being young players have a much smaller spectrum of expectations and thus the developers can manipulate the games to be easier to make money off of via making the games easier to manage. Easier to manage usually means easier to program and more repetitious. As long as there are more youths playing MMORPGS then adults, they will continue this pattern forever. IE things may change, but extremely rarely and extremely slowly and never really in the direction people will want.
It is most interesting to see the banter here because it emphasizes the diversity of perspective we have for this issue.
Old pen and paper gamers (like me) tend to favor roleplaying, socializing, tactics, and strategies based upon whatever game we are playing's world and storyline. Immersion is usually very important to us and viscerally living out the lives of our created characters make things more enjoyable for us. We older gamers also seem to have a penchant for having a lot of "alts"... hey, when you have created over 100 pen and paper characters, what's going to change when you play an MMO?
Video gamers seem to have a little more of that "quick reflex, fast action" desire to be seen in game. How could you not want action when you grew up playing in the arcade games like "Defender", "Zaxxon", "Tempest" etc...
Computer gamers are all over the board but I suspect lean towards tactics and strategy games or shooter styled games... which makes me wonder if any game company will ever have the cojones to ever make a turn based gamed MMO.. hmmm...
And of course you have the hardcore MMO players.. well they are all over the map as well but seem to favor the gathering of loot, reaching the highest level quickly and sometimes just blowing through a game.. for what reasons I don't really understand.
Of course, I know I am generalizing here but its these different perspectives that keep this debate alive. And debate is good and needed! We need to continue to discuss where MMOs have been and where they are going so that they WILL become better and WILL include more immersion, more chances to be creative and unique... this is good stuff all, lets keep thinking how we want to see MMOs progress and what we really want to see in an MMO beyond the grind, beyond the leet, the loot and all the other things that make games not so fun for so many players.
just my .02 influence.