Age of Conan: Not recommended for PvPers over a year latter.

Crashloop · September 2009

To Finaticd

Thanks for finally providing this link to me, however most of what you refer too here is outdated and a lot of it never made it into the game. you have taken quaotes from the time AoC was in developement, and guess what stuff changes while a game is in development. Most game creators have ideas that never is made alive because the idea proved to be crap or not so good.

Sieges are broken, everyone knows that and it is the key issue funcom needs to sort out imo.

Bar brawling was taken out and never implemented , reason for this was mentioned to be that the mechanics behind it didn't really work.

Mini games do work, there have been issues with class balance, but that goes for any MMO I have played with minigames or battlegrounds. Class balance is on the way and before I quit AoC it had improved a lot. the biggest problem with minigames in AoC know would be the lack of players that made the minigames pop up instantly when the game was crowded.

There are only 5 pvp levels as you mentioned and the gear you can earn here is decent enough. It doesn't make your character a lot better in PvP over someone who has T2 raid gear, but over blue gear you have an advantage. PvP level 5 gear is equivalent to T1 raid gear in power and it does make a difference after they adjusted the stats.

Some of the game mechanics just don't work well and it is apparent in PvP, granted Funcom has taken steps to make it less noticeable there are still a major issues, Funcom did try to do something new but it wasn't developed and even after the post release changes many decisions contradict PvP:

Melees use combos that use stamina while sprinting and hide use stamina in contrary to casters using spells that use mana with a bar to use all the sprint or hide they want .

You are right that melee uses stamina for both combo's and running, however I never saw this as a issue. Yes casters could run away from me, but when they did that meant they couldn't damage me whilst running. I played a barbarian, I was the cookie cutter hybrid version of it too. The reason was simple it was the only spec that actually worked against casters. The tactic I had was sneak up to them, knock them over and then rape their health with CoS. Funny enough a lot of the times it worked well. Fighting a caster that was prepared was hell as you would loose due to no real charge and the caster could CC you to death. The main issue here was with the game and it's balane issues. Casters were OP, and for a melee to kill a caster you could not do one thing wrong. Melee was hard to master. When they revamped a lot of the classes these balancing issues was suddenly not so bad anymore. My ranger after it got upgraded could very well handle casters, something I wasn't able to do before.

Pot heavy combat: PvP can be very health, stam, and mana pot heavy do to low cooldown times.

And is this wrong? the pots does help but they are far from super effective and op. This have given me some interesting fights where I have had to test my skills properly against the opponent.

Shields: Players get 3 shields but they can't manipulate them on reaction do to not knowing what your opponent will do. However, most classes have a strong combo or a spammable ability and if you know the class you can set shields against it. Players don't know how the other guy is blocking so they can't change combos accordingly. Also it only works against melees.

The shields is mostly used that you set them towards the class you fights worst attacks, and it has been very helpful in situations where you fight a class you know. As you say the shields cannot be manipulated on the go against the enemey you fight unless you know the class good enough to see what attack he is using against you. This have given people with the knowledge of a class a good advantage over others simply as they know the attacks. Good or bad this is a thing I like, it rewards players who learn the other classes outside and inside.

Strafing: it wrecks melee combat forcing many wiffs today. The game was designed for melee to stand toe to toe I guess but that is not what PvP players do. Having said that on my recent win back most of the players seemed to have trouble moving the arrow keys to keep me on the screen so maybe people don't strafe anymore.

The circle strafing has been reduced to some extent yes, it did still happen whilst I played, but it was not every fight. And wasn't a real problem anymore.

The thing that for me makes AoC PvP really nice is that the characters are solid, you can't run through them like in WoW, you can use the tank in the group to actually stop an attacking guy reaching the casters as easy as in other games. Some of the world PvP the guild I'm in did we used tanks and soldiers at the front to take the first beating and it did in many times work. it prevented the players we fought to use all their "ammo" on the casters who could stay and kill people relatively safe. Of course players can move around other players, but it still had an initial effect on the attack. Another thing I like is that as a melee you can attack multiple enemies at once, positiong means everything in those fights and you have to think about how you move etc. This is a thing that some people will struggle with mastering and it might seem like a bad thing for those players. But in my opinion AoC melee combat is a thing you have a lot of improvement possibilities in as a player. WoW doesn't have a bad PvP system, the fighting mechansim is ok. But in my opinion it also isn't that much challenging over time. Then again it all boils down to personal preferences on what you or anyone else likes. For me AoC combat system is very good, others hates it.

I have often seen you talk about how PvP is briken, yet this post doesn't really tell me much new on the matter. Sieges are broken, minigames suffer at times from the low population. These are 2 things that can be fixed, the rest of the PvP system do work with the newest changes. The classes are better balanced, however casters still have the advantage. The advantage they have is a lot less then what they used to have tho.

finaticd · September 2009

Originally posted by Crashloop

To Finaticd
Most game creators have ideas that never is made alive because the idea proved to be crap or not so good.
4 of 5 things made it into the game so I evaluate those items today. Nothing else PvP related made it in so that is all there is.
the biggest problem with minigames in AoC know would be the lack of players that made the minigames pop up instantly when the game was crowded.
Ya and it is getting worse as populations and especially player activity declines. AoC doesn't have money to X server it but it is an issue. The only real remedy would be more server mergers and better incentives.
There are only 5 pvp levels as you mentioned and the gear you can earn here is decent enough. It doesn't make your character a lot better in PvP over someone who has T2 raid gear, but over blue gear you have an advantage. PvP level 5 gear is equivalent to T1 raid gear in power and it does make a difference after they adjusted the stats.

Ya but my point is 5 levels seems pretty lame, War has 80 which is to many and WoW had 20 or so, also the gear rewards from War and WoW's PvE is on par with end game raiding. Does inferior PvP item rewards cater to PvP players? no, and my post was directed at PvP players.

You are right that melee uses stamina for both combo's and running, however I never saw this as a issue. Yes casters could run away from me, but when they did that meant they couldn't damage me whilst running.
If caster sprints away and you sprint to chase when the caster runs out of stamina he will stop and blow you away with mana when you get there you can only use the auto attackish white damage. It is pretty unba kiting.

the pots does help but they are far from super effective and op. This have given me some interesting fights where I have had to test my skills properly against the opponent.
Pots are cheap to most PvP people, it is the only solution to kiting but it is a bad game mechanic. PvPers shouldn't have to visit the vendor to PvP. Actually, I have been playing titon quest and I hate the pot chugging for PvE, Oh just like flasks for warcraft raiding.

The shields is mostly used that you set them towards the class you fights worst attacks, and it has been very helpful in situations where you fight a class you know.
I would not consider a list of where to put shields vs. X class knowing them inside and out. It was pretty lame doing 5 button press simmon says combo to not do much damage at the end though.

The circle strafing has been reduced to some extent yes, it did still happen whilst I played, but it was not every fight. And wasn't a real problem anymore.
I just used the strafing garbage during win back it is impossible to hit a moving target with an assassin because the range + lag sucks but as an assassin I can out maneavour a polearm. IDK but I know EQ1 and WoW had better collision stuff when strafing.
The thing that for me makes AoC PvP really nice is that the characters are solid, you can't run through them like in WoW, you can use the tank in the group to actually stop an attacking guy reaching the casters as easy as in other games. Some of the world PvP the guild I'm in did we used tanks and soldiers at the front to take the first beating and it did in many times work. it prevented the players we fought to use all their "ammo" on the casters who could stay and kill people relatively safe. Of course players can move around other players, but it still had an initial effect on the attack. Another thing I like is that as a melee you can attack multiple enemies at once, positiong means everything in those fights and you have to think about how you move etc. This is a thing that some people will struggle with mastering and it might seem like a bad thing for those players. But in my opinion AoC melee combat is a thing you have a lot of improvement possibilities in as a player. WoW doesn't have a bad PvP system, the fighting mechansim is ok. But in my opinion it also isn't that much challenging over time. Then again it all boils down to personal preferences on what you or anyone else likes. For me AoC combat system is very good, others hates it.
Ya War had collision mechanics, lol I kind of liked WoW's as I could run through someone and snare them. Wow has a crazy learning curve, there is a big diffrence between a 1300, 1600, 1900, 2200 arena ranked melee and it isn't all gear.
I have often seen you talk about how PvP is briken, yet this post doesn't really tell me much new on the matter. Sieges are broken, minigames suffer at times from the low population. These are 2 things that can be fixed, the rest of the PvP system do work with the newest changes. The classes are better balanced, however casters still have the advantage. The advantage they have is a lot less then what they used to have tho.
The border lands are empty now that guilds have the resources..The is no major point to PvP, etc. All points are epic when this was supposed to be a PvP game and it failed to deliver over a year after release.

Barteaux · September 2009

Age of Conan is one of the best MMO's out on the market, and the single best imo.

One of the core features of the game is the pvp-focus.

A thread like this is obviously just made out of bitterness from a disgruntled former player that got emotionally hurt after the lousy launch.

Reading a claim like this reminds of the post that gave an in-depth explanation into why AoC's graphics really were very bad, even though FC through some conspiracy had made them look good.

Age of Conan is far from perfect, and probably never will be either, but try to at least critizise the game for what it lacks, you just make obvious your personal vendetta by these ridiculous claims.

Crashloop · September 2009

Originally posted by finaticd

Originally posted by Crashloop

To Finaticd
Most game creators have ideas that never is made alive because the idea proved to be crap or not so good.
4 of 5 things made it into the game so I evaluate those items today. Nothing else PvP related made it in so that is all there is.
the biggest problem with minigames in AoC know would be the lack of players that made the minigames pop up instantly when the game was crowded.
Ya and it is getting worse as populations and especially player activity declines. AoC doesn't have money to X server it but it is an issue. The only real remedy would be more server mergers and better incentives.
Server merges will most likely happen if the population doesn't increase and the servers suffer from low population. WAR have done it many times already and most other games have also done this. Merges can have 2 effects tho, it can drive away some people as they feel the fun for them goes away. Or it can actually be a life saver for the population that is left and give them a healthy population to do things. Not really sure how AoC's population is atm Since I don't play the game, but I would guess Aion OB have taken a few guilds from AoC. Within a month or 2 we will see the real effect of Aion launch imo. most people should have reach endgame and started doing it and that is where Aion will show if it have what it takes to keep players there or not.
There are only 5 pvp levels as you mentioned and the gear you can earn here is decent enough. It doesn't make your character a lot better in PvP over someone who has T2 raid gear, but over blue gear you have an advantage. PvP level 5 gear is equivalent to T1 raid gear in power and it does make a difference after they adjusted the stats.

Ya but my point is 5 levels seems pretty lame, War has 80 which is to many and WoW had 20 or so, also the gear rewards from War and WoW's PvE is on par with end game raiding. Does inferior PvP item rewards cater to PvP players? no, and my post was directed at PvP players.

If 5 levels seems lame or not can be discussed. With the XP curve on these 5 levels I see no reason to have more the 10 levels max. the bad thing with PvP levels is that since there is no xp loss everyone will get to max level sooner or later. I would love to see a PvP system that meant effort did pay off, a ranking system where the top spots had to be fought for. PvP gear in AoC does matter, however like the other gear it doesn't matter as much as in WoW or WAR. In WoW having the correct gear is the most important thing. Aoc is a game that always have been advertised with being not so gear dependant. The stat change did change this and gears matter more now then it ever has done. The PvP gear also got an overhaul, but it still isn't needed to use it to PvP. And for me that is great. it means I can wear other gear and get the look I want on my character.

You are right that melee uses stamina for both combo's and running, however I never saw this as a issue. Yes casters could run away from me, but when they did that meant they couldn't damage me whilst running.
If caster sprints away and you sprint to chase when the caster runs out of stamina he will stop and blow you away with mana when you get there you can only use the auto attackish white damage. It is pretty unba kiting.
In this situation I would try 2 things, either CC him with Knockback, stun or whatever or if he is determined to run and CC fails I would let him run, go the other way, stealth up and wait for him to come back. In a run fight the caster will win as melee will run out of stamina, but if a melee chooses to empty himself of stamina he has choosen it himself imo. After the class changes a lot of this issue got easier to deal with since more of the classes had charge abilities. A mage can still run, but isn't it a bit up to the players too if they want to empty themself for stamina? Sure it isn't the ideal situation, but when was it allowed to think creatively when PvPing?

the pots does help but they are far from super effective and op. This have given me some interesting fights where I have had to test my skills properly against the opponent.
Pots are cheap to most PvP people, it is the only solution to kiting but it is a bad game mechanic. PvPers shouldn't have to visit the vendor to PvP. Actually, I have been playing titon quest and I hate the pot chugging for PvE, Oh just like flasks for warcraft raiding.
The vendors who sells the needed pots are almost everywhere so it isn't a real hassle to buy pots they even added the boxes where you can byt 100 pots in the same time. before buying bots was boring as you had to buy one at the time. This however is fixed and any PvP'er who doesn't do it the easy way might need to sit down and plan better :P

The shields is mostly used that you set them towards the class you fights worst attacks, and it has been very helpful in situations where you fight a class you know.
I would not consider a list of where to put shields vs. X class knowing them inside and out. It was pretty lame doing 5 button press simmon says combo to not do much damage at the end though.
Fair point, then don't use the shields. A lot of players never bothered with the shields at all, so whenever I was PvPing and encountered someone who actually used his shield the first thing that meant was to outsmart him by placement etc. Some places in the game that works very good other places you don't have the option. Then we have to use CC and choose the attacks wisely. Shields aren't that imba unless you encounter someone who knows to use them perfectly. And tbh that doesn't go for many of the AoC players

The circle strafing has been reduced to some extent yes, it did still happen whilst I played, but it was not every fight. And wasn't a real problem anymore.
I just used the strafing garbage during win back it is impossible to hit a moving target with an assassin because the range + lag sucks but as an assassin I can out maneavour a polearm. IDK but I know EQ1 and WoW had better collision stuff when strafing.
The strafing did work quite well and it's a bit like the bunnyjumping was back in CS in the old days. Strafing isn't easy to deal with as you say WoW seems to have better hit boxes then AoC. Strafing was the only real PvP issue I kind of disliked since a ranger would be closed to screwed if the trap bug happened or if I couldn't CC him.
The thing that for me makes AoC PvP really nice is that the characters are solid, you can't run through them like in WoW, you can use the tank in the group to actually stop an attacking guy reaching the casters as easy as in other games. Some of the world PvP the guild I'm in did we used tanks and soldiers at the front to take the first beating and it did in many times work. it prevented the players we fought to use all their "ammo" on the casters who could stay and kill people relatively safe. Of course players can move around other players, but it still had an initial effect on the attack. Another thing I like is that as a melee you can attack multiple enemies at once, positiong means everything in those fights and you have to think about how you move etc. This is a thing that some people will struggle with mastering and it might seem like a bad thing for those players. But in my opinion AoC melee combat is a thing you have a lot of improvement possibilities in as a player. WoW doesn't have a bad PvP system, the fighting mechansim is ok. But in my opinion it also isn't that much challenging over time. Then again it all boils down to personal preferences on what you or anyone else likes. For me AoC combat system is very good, others hates it.
Ya War had collision mechanics, lol I kind of liked WoW's as I could run through someone and snare them. Wow has a crazy learning curve, there is a big diffrence between a 1300, 1600, 1900, 2200 arena ranked melee and it isn't all gear.
The arena learning curve is steep no doubt about that, but it is also about having the right classes more and more, atleast that was what arena was about in TBC when I played it. If Blizzard changed this with wotlk then good for them.
I have often seen you talk about how PvP is briken, yet this post doesn't really tell me much new on the matter. Sieges are broken, minigames suffer at times from the low population. These are 2 things that can be fixed, the rest of the PvP system do work with the newest changes. The classes are better balanced, however casters still have the advantage. The advantage they have is a lot less then what they used to have tho.
The border lands are empty now that guilds have the resources..The is no major point to PvP, etc. All points are epic when this was supposed to be a PvP game and it failed to deliver over a year after release.
Hopefully with patch 1.6 they will add towers and such to the borderlands who does make this area a more preferred place to take the fights. Time will show tho, For my part PvP was fun due to the combat system and the different classes. But as you say there was no real point in PvPing other then for fun.

finaticd · September 2009

Originally posted by Barteaux

Age of Conan is one of the best MMO's out on the market, and the single best imo.
One of the core features of the game is the pvp-focus.
A thread like this is obviously just made out of bitterness from a disgruntled former player that got emotionally hurt after the lousy launch.
Reading a claim like this reminds of the post that gave an in-depth explanation into why AoC's graphics really were very bad, even though FC through some conspiracy had made them look good.
Age of Conan is far from perfect, and probably never will be either, but try to at least critizise the game for what it lacks, you just make obvious your personal vendetta by these ridiculous claims.

It lacks PvP, besides a majority of players quiting over the last year and a higher percentage of PvP players leaving over PvE players. I used current player's quotes. Your blind fanboyism is humorous but I'm sorry to say AoC PvP sucks today and that is one of the reason this game is so unpopular today and why the game shrank rather than grew, population wise, after free trials and win backs.

It isn't your fault is Funcom's fault for just not caring enough to fix PvP in this game. However you can't miss lead people this game is not for PvP minded players as the game doesn't support it.

If you keep spamming "AoC is the best MMO on the market" will it ever be true or will people some day believe it? It is far from the best any thing, game play wise. Perhaps graphics and artistic apeal it is OK, but it is a video game so game play should be number 1.

EDIT: the only thing I think I forgot to add about the issues with PvP is there is to much Crowed Control and Stun in this game. I don't remember but either this or warhammer was supposed to be CC lite but this has more CC than Warcraft now and the survivability is no where near warcraft.

nihce · September 2009

Dude seriously I told you before. You have to recheck your facts and get them straight. AoC is bleeding subs (but not as much as you would like though) but mostly due to "nothing to do in PVE". Getting in a minigame with server's best premade and fight another premade is one of the most enjoyable and skill based PVP I have ever encountered in MMO's. The real problem for this game is lack of incentive as to why to PVP - PVP is meaningless. But this can come only after your beloved WoW ruined the genre. PvP should be self sufficient - when I join for minigames with premade and fight another well organised premade I do it BECAUSE IT IS FUN and challenging. Not to get 1k PXP, new armor and shiny thongs. Granted, we all wait for towers and for sieges to be fixed but PVP is rather ok due to superior melee combat mechanics and very fun "weird" classes.

PVE on the other hand is the real problem for the game - right now most guilds and even pugs have bosses on farming and it is quite boring and can be done in 1 day - 2 days to clear everything (evenings ofc). That is the real problem - because after that raiding is closed for a week and PVE players have nothing to do. So please get your facts straight ...

EDIT: surviability : best Bearshaman duels take 30 minutes +

EDIT: time is around noon in Europe and I got aq mini in 2 min after i logged

finaticd · September 2009

I'm sure PvE has issues but my facts mentioned everything you said about PvP and more and it turns out that PvP has major issues.

Incentives work as is seen in all MMOs or Fun works as is seen in Halo 3 ( well halo 3 has a leveling system so maybe it is incentive) to keep players . Look people need a reason to PvP, something to fight over.

Today you may be right as PvP was so bad it has driven off most PvP players and what is left are mostly people who care about PvE.

crunchyblack · September 2009

Originally posted by finaticd

I'm sure PvE has issues but my facts mentioned everything you said about PvP and more and it turns out that PvP has major issues.
Incentives work as is seen in all MMOs or Fun works as is seen in Halo 3 ( well halo 3 has a leveling system so maybe it is incentive) to keep players . Look people need a reason to PvP, something to fight over.
Today you may be right as PvP was so bad it has driven off most PvP players and what is left are mostly people who care about PvE.

We all know in your opinion the pvp is bad, in my opinion its whats keeping me playing.

there are still plenty of pvpers, i would argue that the pvp servers have more players than the pve servers in total.

You say there is nothing to fight over in pvp? Are you serious? Its guild based pvp not faction based, the community isnt divided in chat and in the world. There are also seiges, since the last patch they went from crashing 60% of the time to rarely happening. I personally havent crashed yet, and ill pug siege whenever possible.

I dont know who your getting your information from.

maakaatuu · October 2009

Originally posted by finaticd

Well in summary the 4 types of PvP that the game has are broken today: No bar room brawling, no siege warfare because it does not work most of the time, no pvp mini games due to imbalance and many servers don't have populations for it/ and it has no X-server ability so they are out of luck, No border lands PvP because the resources are worth nothing at all.
I took an hour to write that up and the reason is to show AoC fails at PvP 100%.
There is zero PvP worth it in AoC even the combat system works against them.
The funny thing is people who play AoC an empty game hours a day will make fun of my 1 hour in disproving thier advertising about how great AoC PvP is. I didn't write much it is just this game tried to do so little PvP stuff and failed each time that all I had to do is post the pre release quotes and rebuttle it with stuff written in the last few days. LAST FEW DAYS that is how bad this game is in regards to PvP as there are few posts at all do to being scared of being banned and the low population.

Get real the fans wanting more people and are lying to players in that AoC is still a PvP game...www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3049895#3049895
When in reality AoC fails 100% at PvP and isn't worth anyones time of the day unless thier sallery depends on AoC subscriptions.

There are many better PvP games that's for sure. I think the best part of AoC is the PvE in Tortage (levels 1-20). It kind of goes downhill after that.

Rdlaban · October 2009

fanaticd you fail at many things. Most of all you fail at your plan to make everyone believe that AoC is dead population wise. I wonder why this is so important to you? I for once; play the game and I must say that I have a different conclusion than you. It might also seem that funcom; that should know the number of subs, are disagreeing with you.

I also enjoy some pvp; even over a year a later. But I must admit I take breaks. I do not pvp 24 hours a day; or 16 hours since most ppl need sleep. If I did; it would be getting old. Everything will. Even sex. Hope you get this point and take a good look at how you spend your days and maybe find out that spending 4 hours a day on a game you don't even play might be bad prioritizing of the time you got. On the other hand; better you spill your hate here than in the real world.

Your linking to prove your points its just bad. You link to other discussions on other forums as it would make your arguments more true.... You know you can find links to almost every statement on the Internet? I does not make it any more true. Learn more about information evaluation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_criticism .(oh there is a joke here somewhere; see if you can find it...) Hopefully you would be able to soak up some of the knowledge and be a better debater.

So as a warning to the community; be aware that fanaticd; and his loyal follower LordBonzey is a "hater" and therefore should not be consider a good source of information about the state of the game. If you would like to know more then you can try for yourself at www.ageofconan.com/trial/ or read the mmorpg.com re-review www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/191/view/reviews/load/88

maakaatuu · October 2009

Originally posted by Rdlaban

fanaticd you fail at many things. Most of all you fail at your plan to make everyone believe that AoC is dead population wise. I wonder why this is so important to you? I for once; play the game and I must say that I have a different conclusion than you. It might also seem that funcom; that should know the number of subs, are disagreeing with you.

I also enjoy some pvp; even over a year a later. But I must admit I take breaks. I do not pvp 24 hours a day; or 16 hours since most ppl need sleep. If I did; it would be getting old. Everything will. Even sex. Hope you get this point and take a good look at how you spend your days and maybe find out that spending 4 hours a day on a game you don't even play might be bad prioritizing of the time you got. On the other hand; better you spill your hate here than in the real world.
Your linking to prove your points its just bad. You link to other discussions on other forums as it would make your arguments more true.... You know you can find links to almost every statement on the Internet? I does not make it any more true. Learn more about information evaluation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_criticism .(oh there is a joke here somewhere; see if you can find it...) Hopefully you would be able to soak up some of the knowledge and be a better debater.

So as a warning to the community; be aware that fanaticd; and his loyal follower LordBonzey is a "hater" and therefore should not be consider a good source of information about the state of the game. If you would like to know more then you can try for yourself at www.ageofconan.com/trial/ or read the mmorpg.com re-review www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/191/view/reviews/load/88

AoC is not yet dead population wise but also is not doing well. Subscriptions are still going down and we have this new price drop as solid proof. You really think Funcom would drop the prices if the game was doing well?

I think maybe you need a lesson on how thing work in the business.

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Age of Conan: Not recommended for PvPers over a year latter.

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Age of Conan: Not recommended for PvPers over a year latter.

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