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LordBonezy Asks Why Not Get REAL Community Input?
LordBonezy
Member Posts: 254
More specifically why not prove you are getting community input that is real, instead of just making up your own priorities because however you are getting your input is sacrificing the only resource your company should care about and the only one that is absolutely necessary for the enjoyment of players and survivial of the game, subscribers.
That is right by your actions and continued ineptitude Funcom, Craig Morrison you are bleeding subscribers at a higher rate than ever before in 2009. Added to clarify Title to fit format of other "Why nots"
Clearly this game is not going in the direction most players want it to. The developers if they had a clue would be implementing faster, and better, and in ways many more than a small minority agree with. So in the tradition of Dana Massey who's written quite a few good articles with a simple "Why not" thrown out there.
I ask you all this...
Why not have a poll on the main forums run by the developers, with 5 simple features which could be quickly implemented after selection by the community via a vote. Surely one can see the benefit of proving to the community that features are being implemented that the community as a majority want to see.They wouldn't have to make every development decision with this, but why not involve the community in a more in depth and immediate fashion than sending out these stupid feedback surveys which have not done the job.
Discuss...
Comments
There is one simple answer to your question, why not? Because you listen to the players you have, you read your forums and attempt to make good on complaints there. If there is one thing any developer should know (especially after nge) think about the players you have not those mythical ones you would like to have.
What they should do is focus on their expansion, consoliadte the remaining players into a few servers and see where they end up. That really is their only option at this point. Those who want to play are, those who prefer its gameplay are. Those who do not are not and most likely will never be.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
First off,
Thank you for making this thread, seriously - it has something to talk about other than fishing through someones life story of how to kill funcom.
second, A really, really ,really big thank you for not making this a Xfire numbers thread.
as for the why not,
A poll on the forums if written correctly would , and perhaps could probably be more effective for the following reasons:
as stated earlier, the community can also get some insight of what the majority prefers, and not the minority, clearing out the mystery of if funcom ever listens to the community, or just the minority -- esspecially when the time comes to for the devs to act out.
Also, Polls on forums are perhaps arguably faster in gathering input compared to doing surveys, not to mention also faster for the community. usually surveys would have several answers for you to choose from (only one answer to choose of course), which for some people is too much time when they are on the go.
Not to mention, Funcoms and their surveys leave a lingering concern that some of their options seem to be borderline on "too blantant to not even happen in the game." (example: pvp loot off of players).
That is the Why Not, FunCom dev cycles are insanely slow, and every time they have tried to patch faster than glacial speeds, too many bugs and flaws get released into the live game. Makes you wonder what the large staff they say they have working on the game does with their time. This game of Catch Up they have been playing since launch will probably get worse as they focus on the xpac and all of the issues that will be added after it's release. The hole will keep getting deeper.
The fact they are still unable to make cross-server mini-games speaks volumes about their lack of development abilities.
I say why not because an particularly small fraction ever actually reads the forums on any type of consistant basis. I consider myself a casual player that likes to read forums at work when the time allows. But for many people, they've only got time to consider two choices: play the game or read the forums
Most play the game.
The CORRECT question would be, why isn't there a survey supplied immediately after login but prior to the character screen. Then everyone that plays the game would see the topic of the month and vote as to how it gets implemented. The smart way to do it would be to put the survey subject on a one month development cycle time. You get all month to vote. The next month, they develop while you're looking at the next subject. Third month is release ...
Rinse and repeat and you've got a gauranteed way to get every players input. Just be sure to put an "I'm fine with any decision as this subject doesn't interest me." answer.
That is a great IDEA! How about rather than making it the topic of the month how about making it the implementation poll for the week. So that players can give direct feedback about ideas. I think giving Funcom a month to do anything is way too long and they stretch it out to 3 months just like patches. If they had a poll for the week they could deliver a suggestion the next week or the week after. In any event I think a big part of this would be keeping the community focused on what they are doing, and making it happen without forcing everybody to read the bs they are marketing and waiting months for features which the company decides players want, rather than what was directly polled and voted for.
Sound like fun huh?
That is a great IDEA! How about rather than making it the topic of the month how about making it the implementation poll for the week. So that players can give direct feedback about ideas. I think giving Funcom a month to do anything is way too long and they stretch it out to 3 months just like patches. If they had a poll for the week they could deliver a suggestion the next week or the week after. In any event I think a big part of this would be keeping the community focused on what they are doing, and making it happen without forcing everybody to read the bs they are marketing and waiting months for features which the company decides players want, rather than what was directly polled and voted for.
Sound like fun huh?
Yeah, something like that might work. One thing though..
Many people are under the impression that Funcom doesn't know what's wrong with Age of Conan. Of course they know what's wrong! It's their job to know how players feel about their game, and they have guys reading and posting on this forum (and others) every day.
The problem is that some things just cannot be fixed.
Lets take sieges for example. Sieges have been #1 on Funcom's to-do-list since beta. Funcom has probably spent over 5000 man hours trying to fix them but so far they have failed to do so. My theory is that sieges are just too much for the AoC client to handle. That is the only explanation because they've tried to do it for over 1.5 years.
I think they have had survey upon survey upon survey and made thousands of minor changes based upon them. However the game just had a bad release and the overall concept and design was flawed with the narrow focus on one playstyle. This game is destined to be a niche game like VGSoH
AoC's chance to be a major player was there but in this genre, but with MMO players you only get one or two chances to make a good impression. I myself gave AoC 3 chances, 1 at release, 2nd at server merge, 3rd with 1.05 and each stay lasted shorter than the previous. One of these days developers and their financial backers might learn that if the game does not fulfill reasonable expectations at release, it is doomed. AOC wil stay around just like AO did but it will never see players shoulder to shoulder in Tortage again
I miss DAoC
Maybe I'm wrong but the main forum run by the developers would be asking their current player base unless I'm missing something. Now your suggestion that they need to work on the expansion and forget the idea of adding players assumes that this game is profitable for FC right now and some would probably debate that this is a healthy and profitable game. I mean there is no point in spending 20 million developing an expansion for a game that internally looks like it may not get you that money back and I would imagine it's just what they would be doing if they have far less than the 700k players who originally bought the game.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That is the Why Not, FunCom dev cycles are insanely slow, and every time they have tried to patch faster than glacial speeds, too many bugs and flaws get released into the live game. Makes you wonder what the large staff they say they have working on the game does with their time. This game of Catch Up they have been playing since launch will probably get worse as they focus on the xpac and all of the issues that will be added after it's release. The hole will keep getting deeper.
The fact they are still unable to make cross-server mini-games speaks volumes about their lack of development abilities.
Aye and it puzzles me to see Craig make statements like "our development cycle compares favorably to the industry" I think he may be comparing his dev cycle to Blizzards with WOW which can be slow but they can usually afford to be there product is polished,working and the games fans are happy with it. When you have customers as un happy as some who play AOC clearly are you cannot take Blizzard time you need to get on Turbine or Cryptic cycle. But I've feared that as Magus stated the lack of developmental ability in that studio is much greater than any player has been led to believe. I saw this same thing in SWG pre CU/NGE it was painfully obvious that those guys did not have a clue as to what they were doing and many things in AOC has mirrored the situation over there.
Again it is totally unexcusable to say you are working on an expansion if your core game is not up to par it scream of FC "playing to their strengths" which is marketing without actually delivering I've read comments by them even that development of the expansion will not effect them fixing the live game and I still struggle to understand how having three teams working on a live game an expansion and a new game does not effect the slow pace at which they have worked on this game.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Considering since i joined AoC in april, they have re done completely the stat system, making it more effective, making equipment more effective....rebablanced every class......added a bunch of content.....are now close to a new major patch where they will add a AA syle achievement system, guild leveling in pvp/pve/crafting and they got an interesting expansion in the works.......i would say i LIKE the patch the developers are on.
Clearly your statement that most players dont like the patch AOC is on doesnt address the majority of players. Really isnt it time to get over your hurt emotions from AoC's tragic launch?
If they keep adding in new character building systems (like the renown system) keep adding new content, and keep developing their product, i cant think of any better pathc for a game.
But if you dont like the quick combat, lack of grind, and a trip to endgame that a casual player can make in a resonable amount of time, this isnt going to be a game you like.
Personally I think the game is going the direction many players do want, just because you disagree doesn't make anyone else who might disagree with you wrong. I have loved the changes since I came back to the game, and almost everyone I play with feels the same (apart from a couple who love tradeskills where AoC is weak), but direction wise I would say it is headiung towards where far more players think it should be heading.
The devs have also done a bunch of surveys recently with way more than five questions, I know I have done two in the last month they sent out, one about PVP and one about my experience coming back to the game, so they are definitely taking the feedback in. Hell, games are not a democracy, they don't have to ask us at all, but they do, and way more than I have ever gotten asked by any other devs (hello NCSoft, hello Turbine), so I think Funcom are doing ok in that regard. I don't like all they have done, but it is a fun game and heading in good directions. I just wish they would do more on the rough round the edges polish part. There are many small niggling bugs still enduring from launch, wish they could see to some of those alongside the big changes.
Seems to me you just dont like the fact that it isn't the decisions you would make. Maybe this just isnt the game for you? There are plenty more out there.
With a poll system at log in (weekly, monthly, whatever), then arguements about who was in the majority would be completely moot because you could SEE what the majority of people wanted. The first one would be a simple:
What do you want us to fix first:
1) Random Bug
2) Random Bug
3) Other
4) Don't care
If FC gets more Other than 1 or 2, then they know they're not reading their customers needs properly. But asking or even just reading the forums gives you a very particular sample of players who may, or may not, represent the majority. And what's more, it certainly represents those most passionate and vocal about the game. Wouldn't it also be nice to catch the guy on a free trial and hear what they think is important to fix? Fix it and you might even get a new permanent player. Because just like elections, when your vote counts (or appears to), you become invested and feel that your opinion is included in the decision.
Not sure what you think Funcom could be doing other than what they are that would fall into what players want more? They did gear, balance and content... you want what else exactly? Personally I could care less about PvP so if you want focus there... I doubt its the majority, especially within the casual player base. AoC is not designed to be hardcore, its casual good old hack and slash. The door to Aion is over there
Gear is still mediocre, because sure, they made the stats better, but the end-game gear progression is weak at best, with few methods of attaining gear. Horrible end-game progression.
Balance is still crap, and has been ever since the "balance patch".
Content is still low, takes less time then WoTLK to gear up to a point where you need nothing outside of raids, and that is WoTLK's weak point.
BTW - at release there were far more PvP servers than non-PvP servers. But PvP in AoC is completely broken as well. Anyone who has played the minigames knows how they go, and no attacks in water + guards ruin world PvP. Sieges still crash even this far in. In months of playing it's near impossible to find a decent PvP fight.
Crafting & economy are still horribly weak.
To the "lack of a grind" comment... Leveling to 80 is horrible when that is the only form of content most players have. There is a reason that 90% of the day outside of raids, everyone is "leveling alts" - because there is nothing else to do. I know many people with 6+ alts in AoC - that type of thing is rare in other games, but common in AoC because of the lack of content. Leveling to max level does not take notably less time than any other game, either... duno why people think it caters to casual players very much - it hasnt since they removed power leveling a few months back - it became like every other MMO at that point. Cept not very much to look forward to at the end-game.
The real question is, what would the players NOT want more of....?
Its casual because the ammount of end game isn't overwhelming, because the spread in gear isn't a roadblock to content, because you can advance to 80 without needing to do anything you don't want to. Time to cap doesn't measure into casual, access to content does. In EQ2 and WoW there are more things you can't do as a casual, ungeared toon than you can. That's not true in AoC. So while WoW/EQ2 has more overall content, leaps and bounds to be honest, since I'm essentially locked out from 90% of it... it has less accessible content.
But if there is a low amount of total content, and 90% of it is useless... it has less content actually worth doing. Which means less to actually keep players busy and entertained.
What use is access to content at the endgame if, even playing very casually, you are out of things to do (aside from reroll) in 2-3 week time?
Forum polls = fail. It's estimated 90% of the community never goes to the forum, only the vocal minority. Login polls are the only way to go for community input.
I actually agree with you on this. It was brought up at one time several months ago and I believe it was Famine who said it required a bit of coding to do this. Something along those lines...If curious I guess you can go back and look at all of Famine's posts to dig it up.
EDIT: Link...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2640593#2640593
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
If the game is losing subscribers at a record pace or is not gaining very many with a free trial offer while already having questionable sub numbers then there in fact is something wrong. I've read atleast three posts telling op that "maybe this isn't the game for him" basically because that particular poster doesn't have a problem with what is happening. Again if the retention rates are effected and can effect where and how business is done then there is a problem, as a community I think it will do well for us to remember this and then we can truly help our games grow. I'm certain many people are having a great time in AOC and for them I am glad but at the same time there is no reason we should be against seeing the company do things to excite and involve new and old players alike, now if the changes they make begin to effect the quality of your game play then there is a reason for a community debate but why have one before hand?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If you can cap out and run all the content end game and along the way in 3 weeks... you aren't casual
When I played shortly after launch my Dark Templar got to 34? playing casually in two months time. Figure for me to cap out playing 5-10 hours weekly... 3-6? months give or take.
Personally I think the game is going the direction many players do want, just because you disagree doesn't make anyone else who might disagree with you wrong. I have loved the changes since I came back to the game, and almost everyone I play with feels the same (apart from a couple who love tradeskills where AoC is weak), but direction wise I would say it is headiung towards where far more players think it should be heading.
The devs have also done a bunch of surveys recently with way more than five questions, I know I have done two in the last month they sent out, one about PVP and one about my experience coming back to the game, so they are definitely taking the feedback in. Hell, games are not a democracy, they don't have to ask us at all, but they do, and way more than I have ever gotten asked by any other devs (hello NCSoft, hello Turbine), so I think Funcom are doing ok in that regard. I don't like all they have done, but it is a fun game and heading in good directions. I just wish they would do more on the rough round the edges polish part. There are many small niggling bugs still enduring from launch, wish they could see to some of those alongside the big changes.
Seems to me you just dont like the fact that it isn't the decisions you would make. Maybe this just isnt the game for you? There are plenty more out there.
Some of the changes are positive. However, were it the case they were trending the correct direction the game would be growing not dying.
If you can cap out and run all the content end game and along the way in 3 weeks... you aren't casual
When I played shortly after launch my Dark Templar got to 34? playing casually in two months time. Figure for me to cap out playing 5-10 hours weekly... 3-6? months give or take.
Note that I mentioend 2-3 weeks 'at endgame'.
Many have mentioned it already and I'll just re-highlight it here from the Funcom point of view.
Having forum only polls really don't help in the long run. This is mainly because only a small percent of players actually post on the forums or even read them. That's why we aim for surveys that are mailed out to all active and sometimes inactive customers. So we can get a better turnout that's bigger than a few hundred people or even a few thousand. It is very important we listen to those who take time to share their input in the community. We do take this in as much as we can and it should be obvious by now that our Game Director (Silirrion) also consumes this daily.
I think we are all for client polls when you login. I can't say if and when we would have such a feature but I know it's not something we don't want to do. It's just a matter of finding time to add it as we always have more important issues to address or enhance (siege issues or expansion stuff). In the meantime, just know the community team is always pushing for the said feature because we know how important it is to have when planning our future updates.
Cheers!
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Many have mentioned it already and I'll just re-highlight it here from the Funcom point of view.
Having forum only polls really don't help in the long run. This is mainly because only a small percent of players actually post on the forums or even read them. That's why we aim for surveys that are mailed out to all active and sometimes inactive customers. So we can get a better turnout that's bigger than a few hundred people or even a few thousand. It is very important we listen to those who take time to share their input in the community. We do take this in as much as we can and it should be obvious by now that our Game Director (Silirrion) also consumes this daily.
I think we are all for client polls when you login. I can't say if and when we would have such a feature but I know it's not something we don't want to do. It's just a matter of finding time to add it as we always have more important issues to address or enhance (siege issues or expansion stuff). In the meantime, just know the community team is always pushing for the said feature because we know how important it is to have when planning our future updates.
Cheers!
Let me bring you up to speed her Famine, to have read this 3 page thread in its entirety. Since I'm such a nice guy and of course have your attention once again, I'll give you the lightning bolt that was the brainstormed idea from this discussion.
We already covered the fact that the surveys and polls aren't helping you guys make the right moves. Some of them yes good ideas, good moves, most of them not, as evidenced by the trend in populations, staff cuts, and well you know why. So, what has to happen is change the way you do business, the way you gather intel on the product, the way you implement, and what your priorities are.
The idea is not to have forum polls, of course because we know that you only get marginal response and a marginal segment of the community. The "big idea" is to place a single mutiple choice question with clear and concise distinct choices, right at the log-in screen, that every player of the game can make during their log in. Implement it so that it is not in the way and does not prevent loading but allows your team to get real instant and important feedback. Then you could also have that one poll in game link directly to a discussion thread in the official forums, and give players the chance to refine the direction and choices made.
Of course you can say that you can't say if and when, oh and I notice you did, but, but, fuck that, you can and should say that yes we can and we are going to! Because fact is you can implement something really simple like this in 24 hours with 1or 2 coders and it will give immediate and credible feedback and potent insight into the direction that you need to go, and give you something you can point to for real when it comes to saying yeah, we answered the call of our players, our in game players, because they made the decision on this game design, this game mechanic, this priority.
Keep it simple, keep it direct, and cut the bullshit. Thats where you guys need to go. We look forward to seeing your implementations, not with the expansion, or in the next quarter, or in the next patch, but now. We are looking for real meaningful improvement NOW!
Here's the thing... Really going about doing polls or even going with what people on the forums are saying can and cannot work. it is easy to screw around with a Poll, even on a forum where you need to be a subscriber there are people who can (and will) screw around with the Poll if it isn't done right.
Going with what the people on the forums want? That's great, only chances are you'll end up doing whatever the loudest tend to say. And as much as the Vets of this one game that underwent some changes a few years ago claim, it was the louder people on the forums that I feel led to changes that hurt the game and then ended up getting big changes that really hurt that game.
Wanna know how I would go about it?
Find the Players that really do give a damn about the game. I'm talking the people that post class guides, those who help newbies or are not your run of the mill lolcat pvper and yes even a Role Player or two. Sit those people down and ask what they think and feel should be done with the game. Granted not everyone is going to get along, however I think it would be better to go with people that really do care about the game.