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General: Player Perspectives: Every Man's Greed
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Jaime Skelton returns this week with a look at loot systems in MMOs and their effectiveness amongst players.
World of Warcraft players are generally aware that the newest patch will introduce a new LFG tool, one that forces the Need Before Greed option on any pick-up groups put together through the tool. The Need Before Greed loot option is being changed accordingly to new rule sets, in which in order to roll need, it must be the primary armor type of the class (no mail for paladins, etc.) and must be appropriately statted (no spellpower gear for melee classes.) This naturally upset a portion of the player base, particularly hybrids.
In discussing the change, Ghostcrawler said, "Looting to some extent is always going to have a heavily social component. There's only so much we can do (or should do) to try and 'solve' that problem for players."
The crab is right. Ever since multi-player games have had treasure, loot has been a sensitive social issue among players. Thrust that delicate component into a massive game in which social interaction plays a huge part, and there is no denying that trouble will happen constantly. Feelings get hurt, and not only do personal reputations get hurt, but even the reputations of friends and guilds can get dragged into the mix. I doubt there's a single one of us that hasn't at one point or another been part of loot drama.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.
OH MY GOD...THAT WOULD DESTROY THE WHOLE DKP SYSTEM OR THE GUILD FAVOR SYSTEM. YOU ARE GOING TO SCREW WITH THE WHOLE BROWN NOSE SYSTEM OF PLAY THAT WOW IS BASED ON WHEN IT COMES TO GEAR.
I think greed everything would be reasonable for a purely PUG system. Even though NBG system mentioned would be better than what is current, there will be problems with it.
As for hybrids - they are a plague on class-based RPGs.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Now they could program the NBG for the type of hybrid you are currently specc'd...you would just have to make sure you are specc'd for the gear you want.
This is why I prefer games where crafted gear is the norm.
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
It's been a long long time since I've played WoW but I do remember noticing one specific thing. Almost all players I ever ended up in a group with ALWAYS clicked need if the option was there. It didn't matter what the object was, if they could click need they would. After going through several groups like that and missing out on a ton of loot because of this, I too started doing need everytime I could to compensate for the stuff I missed on.
People truly are greedy and they want every last bit of value they can get, just look at gold buying. People don't need that gold but they will spend real world money repeatedly to get in game value. It's not surprised that the same community will try for every single piece of loot that they can get while in a group.
While my preference is NBG the system does have a few flaws.
The biggest is simply lack of honesty on the part of come players. This is notable in EQII where there is a NBG loot option that the group leader can set. You will always get someone that simply rolls greed on everything.
While this can be very obvious when rolling on class specific upgrades, there is the much more insidious case of collectibles and master rank spells. People will roll NEED on them and then put them up for sale instead of adding them to their collections / scribbing them. There is no way to prove they are doing this, and they know it.
I was one of the people a while back asking for certain enforcements being tacked onto the NBG option in EQII. That the NEED option is not available on items you already had and that when you did win these items via NEED it was autumatically collected / scribed.
No set of developer enforced rules will be perfect, but if done correctly they can certainly help.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
How about a system that binds the object to the player if the NEED option is used to win it? They could also lower or remove the vendor sale price if it was won this way. That way, only the players who will actually use the item will get the higher priority on a roll.
Simply
Make a guild.
Set the loot rules for your guild.
Do no PUGS.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
One of the major issues with this would be:
Normally my main spec for guild raids is Holy Pally(WOW). But i want to build up my alt spec as a ret, i try to pug a raid as a ret, but like normally they have tons of dps but short healers, so they agree that if i come as a healer i can roll on ret gear as my main spec. With the GAME deciding what i can roll need on, it wouldnt allow me to get what i want,,, so i refuse to go as healie, raid gets cancelled, and nobody gets anything.
Regular raids usually arent a problem, its when your missing one or two regulars, how do you FAIRLY let the temp subs your bring in, get a fair shot at gear, which is the reason they are coming, but at the same time dont tick off some regular when the sub wins an item he REALLY wanted.
Hey Dodsfall, I like this idea. One browsing Devs should seriously consider.
My opinion is that the extremely heavy value of loot (in World of Warcraft) mixed with almost complete anonymity (via name changes and server transfers) are a very volatile mixture. Personally, I like games where loot isn't as important. It doesn't trivaialize the game for me, it actually makes the communities less trivial. Players interact differently when there isn't some carrot dangling in front of them. Generally, in my opinion, they behave better and enjoy the game more. Of course I know there are plenty of stat junkies out there that would strongly disagree with me. /hugs
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
That sounds best to me also. The only reason not to do it this way is because alot of players actually like the loot drama.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
In an MMO servers need to maintain a constant 'shame list' of repeat ninjas. This was done when I used to play WoW on Feathermoon server and it worked extremely well. This process means that being on such a list reduces your chances of finding a guild, joining raids, and joining pugs considerably and in the end is enough to isolate a person unless they switch servers. Seriously, would you ninja with that threat over your head?
A more serious issue I think is guilds that organize raids and then deliberately set up looting systems to avoid non-guildies from getting loot. I have observed this first hand where people spend months on months with another guild's raid always thinking they are just unlucky, one has to question how much time you put in before 'unlucky' becomes 'ripped off'.
When DAOC first came out, crafted gear was the best to be had, and what dropped was decent, and could supplement your build (especially while leveling up) but the generally lower quiality (around 89-92%) vs crafted at 98-100% (with a corresponding increase in power) meant people rarely fought for loot drops. Normally if you wanted it you could ask and anyone in your PUG group would give it to you.
It was comical, my first MMORPG was Lineage 1, and there everyone kept all the loot they were lucky enough to pick up, because it could always be sold even in you couldn't use it.
My friend and I went to DAOC and were in our first group around level 10 or so and something dropped and my friend kept it. Someone in the group asked for it and he refused. They insisted that in DAOC people didn't do it that way, that dropped loot was rarely worth selling except to vendors but we didn't beleive them. We both angrily dropped group and stormed off.
Later our guildmates told us we were in error and explained the system and I quickly grew to enjoy.
But darkness fell over the realm, and the spectre of WOW threw its long shadow over the game. Pretty soon, dropped loot become more valuable than crafted, at first only from special encounters such as Dragon raids, but after TOA dropped loot became the norm as the superior way to gear and crafted items were added only to maximize your stats in a particular area.
The end of an era it appears, but it is a system I would prefer to see employed again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason it's not done that way (and I agree that it would be a better way) is that it means players would not have to grind instances nearly as much. Devs want grind - it means less work making new content.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Some very interesting suggestions.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As an old school Dread Lord from Ultima Online, I only like the loot I find on the corpses of my player victims. You all can keep the rest.
Im so expert here becouse Ive never had a problem with passing on something when someone may need it more than me and usually all is pretty civil on raids, but when I played WAR I really like the whole system they had in place for public quests. The players input is put into points and then organized into a simple leaderboard with the top players getting a bag with the biggest chance for rare items.
The best thing about loot that Warhammer did was the repairable gear. That was a great idea, and should have been present in more of the content - like boss drops.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The WH system for Public Quests worked well in those quests, but would not work well in normal sign up quests.
The problem isn't about loot rules its about sheer design.
When the only way to boost your character is by grouping up with a mililion people your just bound to have douches in the raid. Couple that with the fact that nobody wants to spend hours raiding and get nothing out of it. RPGS are all about conquest and reward. You bassically castrate the reward part when you only give the reward for a whole nights effort to a few players.
I didnt mind Monster Hunter loot rules. After you kill it everyone loots and if your lucky you get the item your looking for. Short Simple Sweet. Sometimes it sucked but in systems like that the chance per drop should raise everytime you do it, because I hate seeing noobs get good gear on the first shot, after it took me a million tried just because of sheer luck.
Easy Solution.
Man Up. Stop playing a weak game like WoW.
And find yourself something Full Loot, PvP.
Someone takes the loot you wanted, you can kill them and take it back... If you can..
I think the system of fair loot distribution in Diablo is best.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I played wow from beta til just before TBC expansion and I'm being honest when I say that I've never witnessed so many greedy people. The actions of these people would've got them blacklisted in EQ but they get away with it in WOW daily. I can't really say its because they're 12 year old kids because most of them aren't. They're just self obsessed greedy sons of bitches who want instant gratification.
You'll see a great deal of crying about this change not because as the whiners will say it breaks the game but that it puts a stop to their general greediness.