In case you hadn't noticed, lore is what separates MMOs. If there were no lore, Warcraft would be the same as Warhammer, Everquest, LotRO, and all the rest. On a complete level. As it currently stands, these games are similar. Sure, they may have some unique perks, but on the whole, they're pretty much the same. We all know this. Without lore, it'd be even worse. At least if you're killing boars in LotRO, it's near the town of Archet, which looks completely different from killing boars in Westfall.
If that's all that separates MMOs, then there's a problem. The fact is, most MMOs are functionally identical. Sure, the character models might look a little different and there might be slightly different mechanics, but precisely how does the lore of giant battles or warring factions change the fact that you're out killing boars? How do those grand wars and fighting sides affect what you're actually doing in the game? They don't. Do you ever have the opportunity to directly impact the world or is it just a bunch of fanfiction in the background designed to make you think there's a depth to the gameplay that doesn't actually materialize in reality?
Great, you've got warring factions, how often do you actually get into a war between the factions instead of skirmishes between guilds? It just doesn't happen.
Virtually all lore in MMOs is pointless, it's just meaningless backstory that has no application to anything you'll actually be doing. I can't think of any games where the players absolutely have to understand the lore in order to be able to function in the game. It's pointless, it's silly and to say it helps at all with immersion is absurd unless you're immersing yourself in pointless silliness.
Meaningless backstory?
In case you hadn't noticed, lore is what separates MMOs. If there were no lore, Warcraft would be the same as Warhammer, Everquest, LotRO, and all the rest. On a complete level. As it currently stands, these games are similar. Sure, they may have some unique perks, but on the whole, they're pretty much the same. We all know this. Without lore, it'd be even worse. At least if you're killing boars in LotRO, it's near the town of Archet, which looks completely different from killing boars in Westfall.
Of course not. What separate MMOs are game mechanics, class design, itemization and scripted boss fights. Rune-master class in LOTRO plays VERY differently than mages in WOW. That is the key differences. That makes the game.
Who cares about some mumbo jumbo about the ring and what not?
Lore helps define the game and helps to define the world. WoW's lore is deep and rich. Asheron's Call was the same as was EverQuest. Without the lore those games would not have been the games they were. DAoC had good background lore, but I feel it lacked what other games from that time did. Nevertheless, DAoC was one game that truly did make use of it's background lore to define the RvR aspect of the game, the way WoW's does with Horde vs Alliance.
For certain lore was a big part of the appeal of Asheron's Call. The monthly advancements in the storyline and the chance to take part in major events in that story, to influence the outcome of a battle (and have your server look different from the rest)...those were powerful tools in creating a memorable experience.
Most of the "young pups" creating games today don't know how to tell such tales and weave them into a game like that. It's all about numbers and purple shinies to them and those old dogs that could tell the best of tales that are still in the MMO business are either in upper management now (and not actually making the games) or if they are down in the trenches are so damn scared of losing their job that they conform to the focus on min/max factor and contribute to the "let's push this title out", be it ready or not.
Playing Dragon Age right now and it has good lore (when looking at the world information coming into the Codex as you explore). The current "story" is the usual fair, great evil is upon us and we must save the day type deal. The lore, though, would allow this title to be a great sandboxish style MMO, letting players rebuild structures and town that have been ravaged by the Blight, and to establish Chantry holdings and Templar chapter and the like. More than likely, though, Bioware will take the easier path and make it into a thempark MMO (if they do an MMO at all out of it), which would be a waste. The current game is already a themepark, a solo one, and who hasn't joked while growing up about having a themepark all to themselves. Don't need another solo heavy themepark as they are a dime a dozen.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
In case you hadn't noticed, lore is what separates MMOs. If there were no lore, Warcraft would be the same as Warhammer, Everquest, LotRO, and all the rest. On a complete level. As it currently stands, these games are similar. Sure, they may have some unique perks, but on the whole, they're pretty much the same. We all know this. Without lore, it'd be even worse. At least if you're killing boars in LotRO, it's near the town of Archet, which looks completely different from killing boars in Westfall.
If that's all that separates MMOs, then there's a problem. The fact is, most MMOs are functionally identical. Sure, the character models might look a little different and there might be slightly different mechanics, but precisely how does the lore of giant battles or warring factions change the fact that you're out killing boars? How do those grand wars and fighting sides affect what you're actually doing in the game? They don't. Do you ever have the opportunity to directly impact the world or is it just a bunch of fanfiction in the background designed to make you think there's a depth to the gameplay that doesn't actually materialize in reality?
Great, you've got warring factions, how often do you actually get into a war between the factions instead of skirmishes between guilds? It just doesn't happen.
And this is where I mean 99.5% of developers these days just stop with the effort in making a world vs game. Most games have very good plot lines and hooks in them that if they had the gameplay elements to back them would create very memorable play experiences. But, they don't. They just drop the old standard, fallback quests in and throw in a raid or three, wrap it up and sell it for $50.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You probably enjoy a good backstory and lore without realizing it, but that's what it is: a backstory. You don't have to care about it... but it's there if you do.
I prefer games that let you explore the lore on your own time, rather than the ones that shove it in your face like some hyperactive child "Oh! Oh! Look what I did! Isn't it cool?!"
Whether it is or isn't is subjective. The same themes don't appeal to everyone, so I would rather have a generally enjoyable game than one that flaunts it's niche material around like it's important.
Virtually all lore in MMOs is pointless, it's just meaningless backstory that has no application to anything you'll actually be doing. I can't think of any games where the players absolutely have to understand the lore in order to be able to function in the game. It's pointless, it's silly and to say it helps at all with immersion is absurd unless you're immersing yourself in pointless silliness.
Wow..your imagination must be incredible.
/sarcasm off
The "lore" in MMORPGs would really appeal to my imagination.
I've played 10+ mmos, and I cannot name one where I've followed any type of story or quest chain. Usually, I'll get the quest, scroll through all the bs and find the objective at the end.
I play mmos to talk to other real people, not talk to a static npc. MMO content should be player driven, not pre-programmed in. Which is why I am losing interest in mmos. They all seem to be focusing more on story and soloing, and less on the "massive" part of mmos.
MMOs to me are about player vs player competition, and just general BSing with friends. I will quit an mmo on day one If I find I am forced to pay attention to their pre-defined story.
To rephrase my earlier points, picture two options to lore:
Lore that exists only as story, with no tangible connection to the game world that would make any sense.
Lore that exists mostly as story, with some elements connecting to the game world.
The first is pretty much meaningless, as in a jigsaw puzzle, any piece that fits can work, so the history and lore can really be anything and have no impact on gameplay.
Ex. You are stuck in some tutorial, until you click through the maddening 20 boxes of NPC dialogue (i.e. the lore) in just the right order, because the dev's insist you read about lore which has no other impact than as a gateway out of their instanced tutorial zone.
The second is where lore needs to be. If 90% of lore is history, and 10% (and you never know which 10%) is clues to tangible or interactive events or items, then lore has meaning and is worthy of a player's attention.
Ex. A book in a dungeon references a hidden passage within a city, and that passage turns out to lead to an underground sewer complex and a hidden dungeon. (Which will not stay hidden forever, of course, but maybe most players do not know of it initially, so therefore it makes sense to "read books you find in dungeons".)
Think of lore like archaeology: 90% dead ends, 8% clues to the past, 2% gold, gems, and treasure! (metaphorically or literally) Therefore, devs should entice players with lore, rather than force lore upon them.
If lore has no tangible connection with gameplay, then lore IS meaningless. Heck, might as well make up a story that 500 years ago, the world was a modern metropolis, then it all blew up and now we have a crude medieval fantasy setting. Or, 500 years ago, dragons ruled the realms, then were defeated as Man emerged from his castle keeps. Or, 500 years ago there was the "Great Nothing", then the gods snapped their fingers and a medieval fantasy world appeared. Or, GAG, 500 years ago there was Arthas the teenaged Lich King who had a bad upbringing, started some big wars, lost and went into hiding, and now there is a medieval fantasy setting. Bottom line: lore has to tie somewhat to the tangible or it is nothing. Just like our nation's history has relics (i.e., Civil War cannons, laws that came about such as suffrage, etc...). Because if all lore is, is one big story and nothing else, then it really is nothing and deserves to be ignored. Of course, since you mentioned forced dialogue boxes, such as in Fallout, I think you and I are on a different wavelength. I"m talking MMO's; WORLDS. You're talking single-player linear storyline RPG stuff.
Good point, lore or "story" should serve as a starting point of the history of the game. It depends on what type of lore. Trivial facts serve to add immersion. Morrowind has many books talking about the lore, its there for people who want it. That doesn't count as "useless" to me, as that is immersion.
However, if in the lore the humans are struggling to defend a main city, yet if this doesn't actually happen in game, it is entirely useless. As something that SHOULD have an impact on the game, doesn't and just gets lost in the backround.
I think the problem is when players have no power to create their own history. What if the actions of the players had an impact on the game world. So maybe those human players have to defend that city, because if not, the goblin players will take it from them. That is for another topic
"Look down at me and you see a fool, Look up at me and you see a God, Look straight at me and you see yourself." - Charles Manson
As an RPG fan who also enjoys reading; I care about lore.
I find it fun to read about something then experience it in-game; like visiting Rivendell in LOTRO, or the Sarlacc in SWG. I don't consider the story to be as important as the gameplay, but having good, consistent fiction behind a game is a definate bonus for me.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I love the reading about the lore of the game. The immersion into a game is what gets me "hooked". LotRO has great storyline quests. Part of the joy of the game is reading the quests and LotRO has some of the most well-written quests I've come across. Even if in the end it's just a delivery, I want to know why I'm delivering it, and why they can't.
Of course, while I'm standing there reading these quests, I see people come up, click the person and leave. I have hard time understanding why people play an MMORPG, and not read the story. After all. it is a role-playing game.
Agreed! Let's just dump any bit of lore from mmo's. I mean, its not like a story is necessary to create quests, items, classes, and content in general, right?
The only mmo that's currently in the process of being released that I would actually read al the quests/dialogue is swtor because bioware has a way of engrossing you into the story.
One of the main reasons I played Everquest 2 for so long over any other game is because of the story it has...the histroy and the lore. Still, to this day, in that game, can find something that bring back old old memories form Everquest. That kind of lore lives on in games. Even with WoW the story comes from a history of games that Blizzard did, so people that played those warcraft games know that history of the places.
Try to play a game with no histrory or story to it and find how quickly killing 10 rats just to kill 10 rats eats away at your soul.
Story does have a BIG part in any RPG. MMO or not. I found that out in the long years of MMO stagnation. Grind is grind, fantasy is fantasy, blah blah. Until something grabs you kicking and screaming into something these days, most of the lore is missed.
I just started Risen and The Witcher (yes at the same time....what? Is that so wrong?). Man o man...if an MMO could capture the depth and mood of even just these two games, let alone Oblivion or Fallout 3?
What would MMOs be like then?
Hmmmm?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I really enjoyed Asheron's Call when it first came out. I played it constantly and could never get enough. I feel lore is very important in a game as it's what gives a game its depth. Knowing what happened to who and when is integral to progressing the plotline that can be unique to a character.
Lore is what brings me to the game. It provides substance to the world that I'm participating in. To me without lore there isn't much continuity or coherence to the game world. Eye candy graphics and stellar mechanics aren't going to bring a lot of meaning to my character and or my characters persona.
If people are playing just to blow off some steam or a time filler before they head out to dinner I can understand that lore isn't going to be that important to them, but to me lore is the backbone of the game.
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www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Originally posted by BuzWeaver If people are playing just to blow off some steam or a time filler before they head out to dinner I can understand that lore isn't going to be that important to them, but to me lore is the backbone of the game.
I did this with Diablo 2. It did have a story to me, but I did not care because I could get on and off within an hour. The first time through, the story worked. After that...../meh
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers. The story of a game keeps me interested in the game. I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers. The story of a game keeps me interested in the game. I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers. The story of a game keeps me interested in the game. I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore? I think not. And it's BECAUSE they don't READ. Do you read books? I bet you don't. Because, after all....fiction is a LIE. WTF??
Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story. If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS? I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.
I'm 54. I've been playing computer games since the era of Winchester Drives on main frame computers. The story of a game keeps me interested in the game. I don't kill 10 rats to get XP. I kill 10 rats because the widow asked me to help her.
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore? I think not. And it's BECAUSE they don't READ. Do you read books? I bet you don't. Because, after all....fiction is a LIE. WTF??
Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story. If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS? I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.
Here's just a few examples of authors whose works I've read extensively,
Frank Herbert,
Ursula Leguin
Larry Niven
Fritz Leiber
Roger Zelazny
Isaac Asimov
Frederick Pohl
Harlan Ellison
John Varley
Poul Anderson
Greg Bear
William Gibson
Orson Scott Card
Jack Williamson,
Lately I've been trying some newer authors, and I recently finished Unclean Spirits by M.L.N. Hanover.
I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.
I am starting to become an "old" man, and I have played many MMO's since the release of Anarchy Online. This means almost 10 years of hardcore MMO gaming. In these years I have still to meet someone who cares about the lore. I have many friends who plays MMO's, and none of them, including my sons, my sister & her boyfriend, friends at my job etc etc cares about the lore. Reason I bring up this subject, is that recently many, or even most MMO's, has increased focus on its lore, and want their players to have a more including part of it. I find this quite surprising, as this is not what me nor any I know would want an MMO to focus on. Am I just a weird odd statistic with same odd statistical friends? Cause the lore has NEVER been a topic when we have discussed the different MMO's we played. How come the game producers has started to focus on lore, when I feel most of us just give a damn about it anyway...?
I don't know about "not caring for the lore". My fiancee and I LOVED the lore in Ultima Online and LoTRO. In these games though the lore has been built previously. For UO it was built during the whole Ultima series (still MY FAVORITE rpg series ever) and in LoTRO it was obviously built up throughout the books.
So there are people that care about the lore, but at the same time it is a game being played.
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Comments
If that's all that separates MMOs, then there's a problem. The fact is, most MMOs are functionally identical. Sure, the character models might look a little different and there might be slightly different mechanics, but precisely how does the lore of giant battles or warring factions change the fact that you're out killing boars? How do those grand wars and fighting sides affect what you're actually doing in the game? They don't. Do you ever have the opportunity to directly impact the world or is it just a bunch of fanfiction in the background designed to make you think there's a depth to the gameplay that doesn't actually materialize in reality?
Great, you've got warring factions, how often do you actually get into a war between the factions instead of skirmishes between guilds? It just doesn't happen.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Meaningless backstory?
In case you hadn't noticed, lore is what separates MMOs. If there were no lore, Warcraft would be the same as Warhammer, Everquest, LotRO, and all the rest. On a complete level. As it currently stands, these games are similar. Sure, they may have some unique perks, but on the whole, they're pretty much the same. We all know this. Without lore, it'd be even worse. At least if you're killing boars in LotRO, it's near the town of Archet, which looks completely different from killing boars in Westfall.
Of course not. What separate MMOs are game mechanics, class design, itemization and scripted boss fights. Rune-master class in LOTRO plays VERY differently than mages in WOW. That is the key differences. That makes the game.
Who cares about some mumbo jumbo about the ring and what not?
For certain lore was a big part of the appeal of Asheron's Call. The monthly advancements in the storyline and the chance to take part in major events in that story, to influence the outcome of a battle (and have your server look different from the rest)...those were powerful tools in creating a memorable experience.
Most of the "young pups" creating games today don't know how to tell such tales and weave them into a game like that. It's all about numbers and purple shinies to them and those old dogs that could tell the best of tales that are still in the MMO business are either in upper management now (and not actually making the games) or if they are down in the trenches are so damn scared of losing their job that they conform to the focus on min/max factor and contribute to the "let's push this title out", be it ready or not.
Playing Dragon Age right now and it has good lore (when looking at the world information coming into the Codex as you explore). The current "story" is the usual fair, great evil is upon us and we must save the day type deal. The lore, though, would allow this title to be a great sandboxish style MMO, letting players rebuild structures and town that have been ravaged by the Blight, and to establish Chantry holdings and Templar chapter and the like. More than likely, though, Bioware will take the easier path and make it into a thempark MMO (if they do an MMO at all out of it), which would be a waste. The current game is already a themepark, a solo one, and who hasn't joked while growing up about having a themepark all to themselves. Don't need another solo heavy themepark as they are a dime a dozen.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
If that's all that separates MMOs, then there's a problem. The fact is, most MMOs are functionally identical. Sure, the character models might look a little different and there might be slightly different mechanics, but precisely how does the lore of giant battles or warring factions change the fact that you're out killing boars? How do those grand wars and fighting sides affect what you're actually doing in the game? They don't. Do you ever have the opportunity to directly impact the world or is it just a bunch of fanfiction in the background designed to make you think there's a depth to the gameplay that doesn't actually materialize in reality?
Great, you've got warring factions, how often do you actually get into a war between the factions instead of skirmishes between guilds? It just doesn't happen.
And this is where I mean 99.5% of developers these days just stop with the effort in making a world vs game. Most games have very good plot lines and hooks in them that if they had the gameplay elements to back them would create very memorable play experiences. But, they don't. They just drop the old standard, fallback quests in and throw in a raid or three, wrap it up and sell it for $50.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
You probably enjoy a good backstory and lore without realizing it, but that's what it is: a backstory. You don't have to care about it... but it's there if you do.
I prefer games that let you explore the lore on your own time, rather than the ones that shove it in your face like some hyperactive child "Oh! Oh! Look what I did! Isn't it cool?!"
Whether it is or isn't is subjective. The same themes don't appeal to everyone, so I would rather have a generally enjoyable game than one that flaunts it's niche material around like it's important.
Wow..your imagination must be incredible.
/sarcasm off
The "lore" in MMORPGs would really appeal to my imagination.
/sarcasm off
If I was 7 years old.
I've played 10+ mmos, and I cannot name one where I've followed any type of story or quest chain. Usually, I'll get the quest, scroll through all the bs and find the objective at the end.
I play mmos to talk to other real people, not talk to a static npc. MMO content should be player driven, not pre-programmed in. Which is why I am losing interest in mmos. They all seem to be focusing more on story and soloing, and less on the "massive" part of mmos.
MMOs to me are about player vs player competition, and just general BSing with friends. I will quit an mmo on day one If I find I am forced to pay attention to their pre-defined story.
The Official God FAQ
To rephrase my earlier points, picture two options to lore:
Lore that exists only as story, with no tangible connection to the game world that would make any sense.
Lore that exists mostly as story, with some elements connecting to the game world.
The first is pretty much meaningless, as in a jigsaw puzzle, any piece that fits can work, so the history and lore can really be anything and have no impact on gameplay.
Ex. You are stuck in some tutorial, until you click through the maddening 20 boxes of NPC dialogue (i.e. the lore) in just the right order, because the dev's insist you read about lore which has no other impact than as a gateway out of their instanced tutorial zone.
The second is where lore needs to be. If 90% of lore is history, and 10% (and you never know which 10%) is clues to tangible or interactive events or items, then lore has meaning and is worthy of a player's attention.
Ex. A book in a dungeon references a hidden passage within a city, and that passage turns out to lead to an underground sewer complex and a hidden dungeon. (Which will not stay hidden forever, of course, but maybe most players do not know of it initially, so therefore it makes sense to "read books you find in dungeons".)
Think of lore like archaeology: 90% dead ends, 8% clues to the past, 2% gold, gems, and treasure! (metaphorically or literally) Therefore, devs should entice players with lore, rather than force lore upon them.
Good point, lore or "story" should serve as a starting point of the history of the game. It depends on what type of lore. Trivial facts serve to add immersion. Morrowind has many books talking about the lore, its there for people who want it. That doesn't count as "useless" to me, as that is immersion.
However, if in the lore the humans are struggling to defend a main city, yet if this doesn't actually happen in game, it is entirely useless. As something that SHOULD have an impact on the game, doesn't and just gets lost in the backround.
I think the problem is when players have no power to create their own history. What if the actions of the players had an impact on the game world. So maybe those human players have to defend that city, because if not, the goblin players will take it from them. That is for another topic
"Look down at me and you see a fool, Look up at me and you see a God, Look straight at me and you see yourself." - Charles Manson
As an RPG fan who also enjoys reading; I care about lore.
I find it fun to read about something then experience it in-game; like visiting Rivendell in LOTRO, or the Sarlacc in SWG. I don't consider the story to be as important as the gameplay, but having good, consistent fiction behind a game is a definate bonus for me.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I love the reading about the lore of the game. The immersion into a game is what gets me "hooked". LotRO has great storyline quests. Part of the joy of the game is reading the quests and LotRO has some of the most well-written quests I've come across. Even if in the end it's just a delivery, I want to know why I'm delivering it, and why they can't.
Of course, while I'm standing there reading these quests, I see people come up, click the person and leave. I have hard time understanding why people play an MMORPG, and not read the story. After all. it is a role-playing game.
Agreed! Let's just dump any bit of lore from mmo's. I mean, its not like a story is necessary to create quests, items, classes, and content in general, right?
/end sarcasm
The only mmo that's currently in the process of being released that I would actually read al the quests/dialogue is swtor because bioware has a way of engrossing you into the story.
I wouldn't play an MMO if the lore wasn't any good. I like having a reason for doing things.
One of the main reasons I played Everquest 2 for so long over any other game is because of the story it has...the histroy and the lore. Still, to this day, in that game, can find something that bring back old old memories form Everquest. That kind of lore lives on in games. Even with WoW the story comes from a history of games that Blizzard did, so people that played those warcraft games know that history of the places.
Try to play a game with no histrory or story to it and find how quickly killing 10 rats just to kill 10 rats eats away at your soul.
Story does have a BIG part in any RPG. MMO or not. I found that out in the long years of MMO stagnation. Grind is grind, fantasy is fantasy, blah blah. Until something grabs you kicking and screaming into something these days, most of the lore is missed.
I just started Risen and The Witcher (yes at the same time....what? Is that so wrong?). Man o man...if an MMO could capture the depth and mood of even just these two games, let alone Oblivion or Fallout 3?
What would MMOs be like then?
Hmmmm?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I really enjoyed Asheron's Call when it first came out. I played it constantly and could never get enough. I feel lore is very important in a game as it's what gives a game its depth. Knowing what happened to who and when is integral to progressing the plotline that can be unique to a character.
Lore is what brings me to the game. It provides substance to the world that I'm participating in. To me without lore there isn't much continuity or coherence to the game world. Eye candy graphics and stellar mechanics aren't going to bring a lot of meaning to my character and or my characters persona.
If people are playing just to blow off some steam or a time filler before they head out to dinner I can understand that lore isn't going to be that important to them, but to me lore is the backbone of the game.
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i care lol i started with EQ
I did this with Diablo 2. It did have a story to me, but I did not care because I could get on and off within an hour. The first time through, the story worked. After that...../meh
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore? I think not. And it's BECAUSE they don't READ. Do you read books? I bet you don't. Because, after all....fiction is a LIE. WTF??
Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story. If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS? I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Yes, exactly. THIS is what differentiates an mmoRPG from an mmoANYTHINGELSE. I'm playing the game to play a ROLE, to be part of an evolving story.
I also found it comical that someone said "no one in WoW reads the quests." Yes, and that's why THAT particular game is full of people asking stupid questions in general chat about where things are in quests and what they're supposed to do. I think the problem with THAT game, is that a lot of the people that play don't READ period. Oh sure....they may know HOW to read (maybe)....but they don't enjoy reading.
A lot of us "older folks" came from text based MMOs (MUDs, and the like) where reading was a very integral PART of the game. I want to know WHY I'm going to kill "10 rats," as you said. If I wanted to just mindlessly kill things....I'd play an FPS game (and I sometimes DO, if "mindless killing" is what I am in the mood for). lol
It doesn't make any difference WHY you are going to kill ten rats, because the story the NPC is telling you is bullshit, meaningless, basically a lie.
If the game world was dynamic then people would actually be interested in reading the story, because it would not be a lie.
In single player games the NPC says go kill ten rats....Because if you do it will save the town. If you don't the town will be over run with rats, everyone will get the plague and die, and the town will disappear off the map.
And guess what? The NPC is telling the truth! All this will actually happen! and the game world will be forever changed depending on what you do.
In an MMORPG the NPC says the same thing, but he's lying. The town will still be there whether you kill the rats or not. The only thing that actually happens is you get xp and loot, s....
How many rats do I kill, where are they, and what do I get? That's the only things the nPC is saying that are actually true.
Man....do people not exercise their imaginations at ALL anymore? I think not. And it's BECAUSE they don't READ. Do you read books? I bet you don't. Because, after all....fiction is a LIE. WTF??
Some people ARE actually interested in reading the story. If all you want to do is kill shit and "get things," then why don't you get the hell OUT of mmoRPGS and go play yourself a nice speedy little FPS? I don't get your reasoning....OR the reasoning of anyone else that chooses this genre and then hates really....everything ABOUT the genre.
Here's just a few examples of authors whose works I've read extensively,
Frank Herbert,
Ursula Leguin
Larry Niven
Fritz Leiber
Roger Zelazny
Isaac Asimov
Frederick Pohl
Harlan Ellison
John Varley
Poul Anderson
Greg Bear
William Gibson
Orson Scott Card
Jack Williamson,
Lately I've been trying some newer authors, and I recently finished Unclean Spirits by M.L.N. Hanover.
I am currently reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.
I don't know about "not caring for the lore". My fiancee and I LOVED the lore in Ultima Online and LoTRO. In these games though the lore has been built previously. For UO it was built during the whole Ultima series (still MY FAVORITE rpg series ever) and in LoTRO it was obviously built up throughout the books.
So there are people that care about the lore, but at the same time it is a game being played.
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