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If not grind.. then what?
Synthetick
Member Posts: 977
Over the past few years the cries and complaints about the "grind" within an MMO have gotten pretty severe. I understand the complaints, and most of them are valid, but when looking at the situation as a whole, isn't the entire concept behind an MMO grind?
Most people will tell you that they consider grinding to be to repeat a given action over and over. But in the MMO world, with the restrictions as far as our character and the world is confined to, isn't everything within the MMO a grind? People complain about mob grinding, quest grinding, profession grinding, PVP grinding, gear grinding, you name it, we grind it.
People bring up points about how certain games disguise the grind but I just don't see it. No matter how much text you lay upon an action in an MMO and call it a quest, it's still grinding it out, all the way to max level or skillcap. I've also noticed how in games, we'll say, WOW, most people look at the end-game resource gathering and whathaveyou as farming, completely separating what they're doing from actually grinding, but isn't it just another term with the same definition?
I guess my confusion comes since I started out in '99 on Asheron's Call. Quests were very limited, the levels inbetween were great, and leveling consisted of nothing but grinding mobs; out in the wild, in dungeons, it was nothing but grinding. I enjoyed all 4 years I played very much; even towards the end of my playtime when Caulcano fellows were the best XP around, and it consisted of a fellowship standing ontop of eachother, in the same spot, most of them attended macroing, killing the same things. I remember being level 72 and Coral fellows on Aerlinthe (sp?) isle or whatever were the best XP around, clocking in a total of 5mil xp an hour and that wasn't even a fraction of my level. I played my archer pretty hardcore for 6+ months and was only level 115 out of 126. Then I play a game like Aion, which people complain about the grind, and I just don't see it. I really don't see it in most MMOs out now.
Dry spots are rough when it's a theme-park quest grind game, but is it really that bad? When the majority of players can get max level, or close, within two months, is it really that big of a grind? These aren't really my questions, tho. My question is:
With all the complaints about a grind in an MMO and if developers could completely remove the concept behind grinding, what would we be left with? What are your ideas, as the community, to eliminate the grind? If not grind, then what?
Comments
So, literally, if we took away the grind aspect of the game -- lets say in an extreme case of taking away experience and leveling of any kind -- then we'll be left with stories and people within an MMORPG. I believe various forms of grinding have been placed into MMORPG's as a way to keep the player population occupied in albeit a fairly cheap way. Its an attempt to maintain the interest and get the consumers to keep paying their subscriptions. If a player ran out of things to do in an MMORPG and truely accomplished everything there is within it, there would be no reason for a player to keep paying.
On the flip side, I mentioned how we'll be left with story and people. It would be pretty much be left up to chance if this were to be the case to maintain the subscribers within the game. Plus, for a developer to maintain interest with the more "hardcore" players, it would be impossible for them to keep up if it were left up to them to create these stories. In a way, the MMO companies need various forms of grind to maintain revenue so they can keep paying the people to release new content (story). I don't think grinding is something necessary for players and its more of a cheap barrier perceived by many of us. It's like what players are left with at the end of the whole story just to keep them distracted long enough for the next set of storylines. Personally, I would prefer a more open environment where the players have more of an impact on the stories created rather than being steered by the writers as a player myself.
I believe the industry is starting to become more and more developed and the current MMO audience is starting to find their own flavors and likes/dislikes within MMO's. There's definitely a lot of new opportunity out there that could be done to the genre, but I think its really up to the independent developers to take the risks because we all know the major companies won't because of various reasons that we may or may not know of as consumers.
Basically, with everything that I said, the only way you can really eliminate the grind would be in a sandbox which emphasizes players and the community a bit more in terms of affecting the environment they play in. Then, on top of that, you would have to eliminate all ways to progress and just allow people to pick their own skill sets, abilities, equipment etc. from the beginning and let them go at it in terms of influencing each other in a game world or the game world itself even. Maybe balance it out with a point system within each area (like skills, assets, etc.) You would take away the economic game in terms of having to save up cash to buy things but other limits can be put into place such as limited backpack room and equipment based on skills etc. It would be an interesting take on what a game like this would accomplish.
In my opinion, I'd rather see the developers create smaller quality games or a game with plenty of tools so the players can create quality content.
I believe in working for something good. I believe nothing worth having is easy to come by. I believe in a challenging game experience. Grinding is not quality content, worth doing, or challenging. The only thing is offers is a time sink. Instead, developers need to entertain us. I point to Dragon Age as an example. I do understand that single player games are easier to make than MMO's for several reasons, but I guess I'm an extremist when I say I want a quality product or none at all. Close up the entire genre in my opinion, before releasing another pile of crap.
People say that MMO's cost a lot of money, and developers can afford only to give us low quality content. Well, then the world isn't ready for MMO's yet. If you're not going to do something good or right, then don't do it at all. So create a fun, rewarding, and entertaining game experience, without needless time-sinks or don't even bother. I do understand that some people feel that MMO's were meant to be played for years. Judging from my first 3 years playing DAoC, I agreed with this. However, I've thought about this and as saturated as the genre is now, I'd rather play each MMO, if made right, for a month or two and then buy the next one, then buy 1 MMO, and play it for years only because I'm being forced to grind to get anywhere or anything.
My second solution is creating an open world, full of danger and rewards for the adventurous, but also allowing players to create their own content. The modding community would love this, the developers could focus on creating quality content and save money, and the players would have a more open world to play in, that could last for years, since we're creating and shaping our own world.
I guess it depends on what you perceive as grind. For me, I feel that killing mobs for xp constitudes as grinding, and I hate that in games. At least in quest based games (even though people refer to them as quest grinds, go figure) there is a goal you work towards. Of course, leveling up is a goal, but killing mobs just for that is extremely monotonous. I prefer games that reward you for questing, so it's like breaking down the grind into more managable portions, and I am fine with that.
Every single game is going to have a grind. The closest thing to the game that the above poster described (out of all the games I've played) is EVE Online, and even then there is a grind there, where you have to 'grind' missions and npc pirates to get enough isk to support your later endevors.
Hence, I feel that if you find it fun, you will continue to play it, whether there is grind or not in the first place. Though I have to admit that I really like the idea of a game being based on storylines and missions, rather than killing mobs. Like Guild Wars for example. The only grind you can find in the game would be the titles (which, I have to admit, I have no patience for) and farming, but the quests barely have any grind in them. You only kill mobs to reach a certain place that is necessary to complete the mission.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
First of all let me explain what I think is the past mentality of prestige in a MMO and what it is now.
Long ago MMOs were about max level for the most part. Those at max level had a obvious advantage over those that were slow to level. It was a time when that in itself was a awe inspiring feat among the inexperienced. It's like coming in first in a marathon and never having ran one before. Those that dropped out of the race reluctantly praised those with the patience to finish. Even though 90% of the populance shun those that did in some way.
Enter WoW and the perception of max level as a status quo being successfully crapped on. It was then traded in for the loot whore bandwagon we have now as a pseudo marker of status in MMOs. But before this was going on a battle of PvP vs PvE was occuring with PvE clearly coming out on top.
But by this time MMOs multiplied by 100 and range from any number of variations with 4 always constant fundamentals:
Leveling process (mobs, questing, dailies)
PvE max-level system (loot, raiding, achievements)
PvP conflict system (battlegrounds, open world, arenas)
Social systems (crafting, lore, player/npc-based economies)
And coming up with the right mix of these systems can sometimes hinder a game if not balanced correctly. Make leveling too long and those that have been exposed to countless leveling systems grow weary of it mighty fast. Top that with a game that focuses on PvP as a endgame feature and you have a situation of trying to mix sugar in ice water..........
Sure it will eventually dissolve but most people are more likely to grow bored long before it does.
And now we are at the point were many of the players coming down from their high off WoW will be exposed to even more tedious leveling processes that don't have effective social systems in place to hook players long enough and poor PvE/PvP systems to keep them hooked.
Somthing has to give and I think levels will be the first to go.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Didt read all your post but how bout some good content/story to follow instead of grind/wack a mole to lvl?
Playing Darkfall EU1 Server
Grind simply describes a measure of how repetitive/tedious a game is. It's a granular thing, but all players typically hvae a certain threshold of tolerance towards it (and that threshold can actually change as the player's tastes change.)
Pattern discovery is at the heart of the majority of the reason players find games fun. So whether it occurs at 6 hours or 600 hours, the moment pattern discovery slows down and the player feels they've figured out all the game's patterns they care about, it no longer provides the same level of fun and they describe it as grindy or they quit. Obviously this can occur even before the player has seen all of the patterns in the game, as it doesn't matter whether the game becomes staggeringly interesting 600 hours into the game if hours #6-599 are the exact same repetitive gameplay.
Point being: "if not grind then what?" isn't the question to ask. It's more "What's the right rate of new gameplay patterns to introduce to players?" which involves the question "How many patterns is too many?"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well you have story immersion and RP, as examples of different directions a game can take. But in an MMO both are hard to implement. Take the Baulder's Gate series, or any other good game with a solid, immersive storyline and add a group of multiplaying, 13 year olds and you quickly understand why MMO's have a hard time maintaining immersion. To secure that sense of immersive play, you need complete control of your environment. One kid shouting "noob!" will bring you right out of that story. The problem is compounded with RP intensive games. The learning curve is high (but returns the greatest rewards in my opionion) and typically requires a sizeable management team to facilitate good role play.
Smaller community oriented games like Neverwinters Nights succeeds where MMO's fail because they typically have more control over story and RP elements. Their management teams (or Gaming Masters if you will) are typically small, and consist of trusted friends and veteran players. The quality of those management teams vary greatly and are typically in line with the success or failure of those communities. To do this in an MMO, a gaming company would need to guarantee a higher quality management team, which means significantly higher overhead, and a smaller annual bottom line.
I think the real answer here, would go to the next game that supports player driven oversight of the game community successfully, manages their overhead cost structure, and is able to maintain a high quality immersive environment. Which is probably much easier said than done (can you imagine the trust involved? Corporate types allowing their players to manage their hundred-million dollar game environments- they'd break into instant cold sweats at the idea). But this is the real golden ticket out of the grind. Everything else is just substitute.
A grind is a trivialized progression repeated ad infinitum. If you make a game complex enough that it is not mechanically repetitive then its not a grind anymore. But that requires a good design, not a mediocre design. Some will tell you all games are a grind, but thats because they have given up hope of seeing a well designed game.
but what is an example of such a complex game?
Honestly though, it is my belief that the concept of a grind isn't so much something that stems from the game itself (though some games are more inducive to the grind than others), but instead, from the players. Multiplayer MMORPGs are perhaps the best example because as long as player A has something player B doesn't have, be it levels, gear, status, prestige or what have you, no matter how good a developer makes a game or to what lengths they go through to disguise the grind, the players will create one themselves. Players in general will always look for the fastest way to get from point a to point b and anything in between is just a grind to the top.
I suppose there're numerous theories out there to explain why this is so. I mean, one could say it comes from the sense that players are worthless until they are the max level or that the "real game" doesn't begin until then, but either way, players simply don't seem to care about what's in the middle when they can so easily see what comes at the end. Single player games aren't quite as inducive to this issue because, for one, they don't already know what they're missin gout on and secondly, the game actually ends "at the end" and the entire game up until that point builds towards a climax meaning the majority of your time in a game is spend playing through it, not sitting at the top.
I would rather they let you lvl up fast in like a week, to get familar with your character, buy just grinding on mobs where they actually give you good xp and a few quest. Then save all that time and energy of theirs they would have spent in low lvl dungeons and quest and put into the endgame
Like I said in the WoW post the grind has actually been re-deployed. It's less honest than a straight up level grind.
Weee! I made it to level 80 without grinding now look at the tasks ahead.
Rep grinding
Factions item grind
Grinding obscured low percentage drops in raids/groups (Why can't I take Rivendare's mount the first time? I am dismounting him)
PVP grind
And obnoxiously so forth. No thanks.
One answer is already being called in the right direction, allowing players to create content.
CoX Mission Architect is one such step headed in the right direction. I'm sure there have been attempts in the past though but give a recent example.
Another answer was previously suggested by someone long ago.
Possible penalties on solo, group, and raid gear if attempting opposite of their specific design, a design in which they'd be buffed in their specific function.
Third is keep making content.
You'd actually need multiple teams, each equally large, focusing on solo, group, and raid. Probably impossible in cost but it would be the only way to satisfy everybody.
Fourth is bring back the explorers, socializers, and PKers.
You'd need maps that change dynamically or would be hard to just post away
Give socializers things they need without forcing it on others
WoW's PVP before blizzard made guards spawn redicously/made NPCs unattackble and/or a populated PVP server with no restrictions to satisfy the PKers.
Beatnik59's post explains what happened to them.
Fifth, D&D has a more reasonable measurement of stats. Implement this to combat the min/max crowd. At least lower the excess numbers down.
That's all I have for now.
Edit: Added "k" for the correct username
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
With the frequency this question comes up and the perception that 'grind' is acceptable in one's paid entertainment, I get the feeling that of this new generation there can't be but a fraction of 1% of them that has a job they like.
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