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Questgrinders, timesinks social interaction and MMO mentality
Goronian
Member Posts: 724
Since I've joined the site, I've been doing nothing, but ranting endlessly, about things I don't like. Oh, no, sorry, I've been doing this since I was born.
Nevertheless, I'll try to put a new spin on things by not being negative to one game/subgenre in particular, but rather to MMOs as a whole.
And hey, I've got a disclaimer this time. I do not hate WoW, nor do I really hate questgrinders. I find them a bit shallow, true, but fun in their own right and, with a proper mindset, can easily get into them. And now, onto my topic.
I'll get risky right from the start, and say, that MMOs really stopped evolving somwehere between the release of DAoC and WoW. Aside from, perhaps, EVE nothing new has been introduced since and the situation isn't about to change in the recent years. EQI introduced the sologrinder mentality, DAoC showed us how to build good PvP on that framework and WoW basically combined the two and threw away all the things it considered meaningless. We clear on that? Good.
Let's think back for a while. MMORPGs were not created yesterday, five, or even ten years ago. Lot of things have changed between the generations. But one things prevailed, finding it's way into every single MMO that was ever released. Timesink.
Let's be honest here, devs want money. And the best way to make them is to force players to spend time on their game, by wasting it. Now, that's understandable, you can't fill everything with content, so you have to make players spend more time on said content, by hindering them. Some games make it straight - you go to place A and grind monster B until you get C experience to get level D. Modern soloquestgrinders are a little more subtle, by making you run huge distances with nothing to do inbetween (I'm looking at you, Windriders), but nevertheless, you're still wasting your time. I know, I'm not opening anyone's eyes here, but it's part of a discussion, right?
I'm getting to the main part now. Whatever genre we're in, we will have timesinks, in one way or another. Why not make them enjoyable?
I've been trialing a lot of games lately and wasting a lot of money on the "first free month". I've played nearly every MMORPG on the market in one way or another. And once the nostalgia of the games, that I've played beofre fades, I always realise one thing.
I do not enjoy your timesinks.
Every single one of them is a race to the finish. You don't get to "really" play the game, untill you're about ten-twenty levels from the cap, where the gear roulette starts. In sandboxes you can't really do anything, unless your stats are high enough, which is still a form of levelling. And the worst part? You're pretty much alone, while you're doing it, since the percentage of old/new players in most MMO's on market is insane. And nobody wants to slosh around with a newbie.
There are ways of improving the situation. One, the most obvious, is to make timesink more interesting. Different combat systems (at least on a level, of what CO does, with aggressive high-speed combat. However systems, that rely more on tactic, rather than brute force would be more, than welcome) are some of the easiest ways to go and so are the more varied quests.
But there are problems with those soultions as well - no matter, how hard you try, they can and do get repetetive. That's the point, where one factor, that separates MMO's from other games comes. Social Interaction.
When I was a kid, first reading about UO and EQI in gaming magazines, not even having access to the internet, the whole concept blew my mind. It felt kinda like "virtual reality", that 80's and 90's media liked so much. And in a way, it was - thousands of people, potentially all across the world, doing stuff together.
"But Goronian!",- You say,- "that's forced grouping! I don't like forced grouping! I pay my 14.95 for a month of updating content and I don't want to see no kids on mah lawn, 'till I let them!"
And... You know what? I don't like forced grouping either. Because forced grouping = PUGs. And PUGs = four-five idiots, who don't know how to play and are not willing to learn. Or two hours of waiting in less populated games.
Grouping should be something integral and ultimately rewarding in a game. In most games, ironically, it is, since you need those grouping skills for the gear roulette in the future. Bu there's the catch - there's almost nobody to actually group with in any meaningfull way on those lower levels. So you either solo or group with your RL mates, which, again, won't teach how to play properly.
I remember back on the Russian EQII server, the first time I played a MMO in my life. Me and a guy, I met a week ago got gnoll costumes and went out of our way to just screw with newbies in a lowbie zone, all in character. Was the most fun I had in any game to date. It nearly made all the times I spaced out of boredom worth it.
Oooh, hear that sound? That's my last point dropping. The most fun people have in MMOs... Invariably comes from other people. Be it their guild, their RL and OL mates or simply strangers, walking around. The genre could've never kickd off without the "MO" in the title. Humans, by nature, are social animals. We either evolved that way, were created that way ir both, it doesn't really matter. We need social interaction. The games stagnate and die because of the lack of community to form around it, except when they die because of company politics. But nevertheless...
What am I trying to say with all this? I'm not really sure. My bottom line would be "MMOs are not really enjoyable, if you take social interaction out, since there's not much game in it". But frankly, I'm out of ideas. Unless you bring RL friends, there's barely a point in starting any game, unless you're ready to spend a huge part of it with no one to interact with.
I don't know about you. But I'm not sure if there's anything for me in the genre anymore.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Comments
I used to think the same thing bro. I've recently gone back to A Tale in the Desert, found LOVE and duked it out in Face of Mankind and I'm getting a new love for the genre.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
I like PUGs. It's the only reason I play MMORPGs.
Make a game that promotes meaningful PUGs BEFORE raiding and the end game, 'cause I don't care to raid, and I'm in.
EQ had great PUGs.
If you can do that without "forced grouping" (and I did play WoW and did not see it there) that's great.
I have been in about two or three good PUGs in my whole MMO experience. Maybe the games themselves are to blame.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I agree with the OP.
He might not have expressed it the best possible way, but in essence he is right and delivered the message.
I liked when our genre didnt had a "grouping/party" system.
When people could either followed each other and played together or not.
Or they were together because they were socializing and enjoyed each other, or not.
No need for a system to balance, to share loot/xp, to give bonuses, to limit number of players to try to force a balanced experience.
Some of it came as nice features, "oh, if you group you get bonuses" "oh if you group you share xp" "oh if you group the loot is shared"... improvements to easy peoples lifes, but what I see is the subrepticious design decisions below the surface, forcing and limiting the players at the same time in different areas, all for the sake of balance.
Limiting number of players so they dont zerg the content, so they limit number of members in a group and anything above that cant attack, or cant loot, or dont get xp, or any form of punishment. Forcing a certain play style. Forcing the use of the archetypes and steryotiped roles for each class/build. Suplementing ARTIFICIAL needs.
The grouping came with so many drawbacks and side-effects. It actually became a hinder in many games. Games with stupid class and level systems... again the Everquest School of MMORPG design decisions... everything is so controlled and limited and specified that its a problem to find people eligible for grouping, or to the same content, or to fill a specific role, at the same level, etc...
The systematized grouping mechanics slaved people. People didnt played together because they found each other in the open ended massive world, well, nowadays there arent open ended massive worlds, everything is instanced, because the game companies dont care about the overall experience, just the cheap ass infra structure and technology. More proffit.
In the old days you found people in a certain area, doesnt matter the degree in wich their character had evolved, it wasnt about classes, we werent divided by classes, we werent segregated in builds, we could do anything, people would always found ways to be usefull, they were in the same area, doing something similar, they could play together and help each other, there was your GROUPING, a natural one.
Not artificial grouping by forced mechanics who are always a side effect of mmorpgs design decisions based on levels, classes, instances, quests. All those things SEPARATE PEOPLE, because they act as pre-requisites to form bounds. The grouping mechanics is counter-productive.
Abolish any sort of grouping mechanics and the problem goes away? No. What Im saying is that grouping mechanics cant work in MMORPGs whose design decisions structure itself in levels, classes, instances, quests and many other "conditions".
Most problems are side effects of the evolution of MMORPGs from Everquest.
Instead of keeping it simple, they made systems for things werent necessary, they got caught in the web. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.
I love the evolution comment. I think MMO creativity become a common place once there is cheaper 3rd party tools to lessen the cost of making an mmo.
I agree with the social aspect of MMO's. The best times in game are in good groups or with a good guild or RL friends to interact with. Solo without interaction of some kind gets boring in MMO's do to the mechanics of the games.
The big question is how to get an increase in interaction without forcing content on players that they don't want to do. A big part of it is the community and just plain quantity of players in the game to interact with. A game can have the best group mechanics that is un-forced and fun for everyone. But if there isn't enough players to group with, it won't work.
IMHO, slowing down the leveling or skilling or players to keep players in the same areas longer would make a game better for grouping. Having enough content to last for 6 months to a year of 24/7 game play would help. Plenty of group quests with gear that would last for weeks at a time to increase the desire to group. The problem is many players believe the game doesn't start till end game and want to speed to the end. Anything in the way of end game is a grind. And combine that with game devs that know this and only have content that lasts just weeks to end game. Then force the raid hampster wheel to try to keep subs.
Another problem is that one mans timesink is anothers most fun part of the game. That most fun part of the game is someone elses worst fear. There are millions of ideas of what is a perfect game. Combining all of the different player ideas of what is fun is impossible. Maybe it will come down to server types. PvE solo, PvE group, PvP solo, PvP group, small group instances, raid instances, open world PvP, FFA PvP, full loot PvP and all of the above. Then players can choose the way they want to play.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Ah, good old UO and AC.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I agree, especially with the "slowing down" part. In a way, that must be a psychological feature, as well as a gameplay-enforced. The "rush to end-level" is beyond ridiculous, really. Most of the content IS low-level to compensate for all this levelling.
And this is not a question of sanboxes VS questgrinders. They all have their share of problems.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I sympathize withe the OP. Doesn't it seem like the majority of players actually enjoy the action and stats over the community and roleplaying aspects of todays MMORPGs? Why wouldn't the developers cater to them then?
The only saving grace that I've found is that you can play the game however you want to. There are still alot of players who value social interaction over loot upgrades.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Haven't found players like that yet. And boy, did I try.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Haven't found players like that yet. And boy, did I try.
There's hundreds of social guilds in World of Warcraft. Guilds full of folks that your average elite player would call scrubs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I have been in about two or three good PUGs in my whole MMO experience. Maybe the games themselves are to blame.
I agree with you. PUGs suck and it's not just the games but the players. When the whole point of grouping is to use other people to get personal reward, of course the experience is going to suck. There's no reason why you ought to go out of your way to help anyone else in the group, if they die, you can just recruit someone else. Screw 'em all, get as much as you can.
No wonder I can't stand PUGs.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Did OP play WoW in the first year? I literally interacted with hundreds of people during that, just because it was soloable doesn't mean everybody soloed. Grouping was pretty integral, and was rewarded without being forced.
But the trouble is that MMOs have fewer players in the lowbie and mid-level zones once they mature, making grouping much more difficult and changing the feel of the game entirely. If the game is successful it might draw enough of a stream new players and alts to keep the zones busy, but it's always only a matter of time until they become dead.
The forcedquestgrinders probably come from developers who don't know how to balance things. Copying WoW now makes no sense, because the levelling in WoW now is designed for servers where 95% of the players are already at level cap, so blizz want to get new players through the barren zones as quickly as possible while maintaining some sort of semblance of a levelling curve.
The concept of servers really needs to be re-thought. As much as I hate it, more populated worlds split into channels may be a future solution.
When WoW was in it's first year I didn't even have the access to the internet, being russian and poor. So no, of course not.
See... There are quite a number of players doing PuGs or just running around. Problem is, they're never interested in social interaction for more, than an hour, since they, most likely, will never see me again and I will not affect their future gameplay experience in any way. There is currently no need for a united community, even server-wide.
There's hundreds of social guilds in World of Warcraft. Guilds full of folks that your average elite player would call scrubs.
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I tried a few of those guilds. Didn't work out. Everyone was too busy playing with their RL mates or roleplaying mpreg angsting blelf DK's, who are somehow still alive. Oh, and even these guys were at least lvl 75. Excuse me, but I'm not really looking forward to playing the game solo. Don't tell me about "playing with my RL friends". They refuse to play anything, that's not F2P.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I have been in about two or three good PUGs in my whole MMO experience. Maybe the games themselves are to blame.
Maybe I should make a signature expressing my dismay that I find myself championing old EQ so much these days. God, I thought by this point that things would be so much better.
But anyway, Goronian, I think you have some misconceptions about EQ because you said it invented the solo grinding experience. Now it's true (despite what some people will say) that you could solo in EQ. It helped if you picked a class which was good at it. But the primary thing to do in EQ was grouping and Pick-up groups were the primary form of grouping prior to high levels and prior to the changing focus of the game. I'm mostly talking about the first few years of EQ and I'm not talking about raiding.
Think about this...EVERY DAY...when you logged into EQ you would get into a PUG unless you intentionally avoided it because you felt like being alone. And most of those groups were just fine. Occassionally you would get stuck with an idiot or an asshole but that was more the exception than the rule. In the four plus years I played EQ I can only remember one time when a guy was such a jerk that I actually kicked him out of my group (and he was a cleric). Of course I wasn't always the group leader but I wasn't shy about starting groups so it wasn't uncommon for me to be the leader.
Sometimes you got a guy who was kind of a jerk but not so bad you couldn't put up with it and even that created some social fun when people started /whispering to each other making jokes about the guy behind his back. Sometimes you got an idiot who did stupid things and, well, that's just the way it goes but even that gave you some funny stories to tell your friends, like, "This guy was such an idiot he bound himself on the INSIDE of the unrest zone line and got caught in a death loop."
But think about that, Goronian. Back in old EQ we did pick-up groups with people EVERY DAY and the vast majority of those groups were friendly and fun. The people you were grouped with would actually chat with you. And there were usually other groups of people around in the same zone doing their own thing and that added another layer to the social experience.
And when you grouped with people it wasn't like in some modern games where you are technically grouped put really you're all just running around doing your own thing. No, when you grouped in EQ you worked together as a group. People would really and truly notice it if you did a good job. When your group got in trouble you were ALL in trouble together. When you did well it was because everyone in the group was doing their job.
And this was the common day to day experience in the game...EVERY DAY.
And people wonder why some of us old EQ players miss it so much and they try to say you can get the same thing from modern games. Yeah, right....I wish. If you think social interaction is the key to mmorpgs then, my God, I wish you could have been there in the first few years of EQ. And it wasn't just the grouping it was the whole atmosphere in that game but the grouping was the backbone of it all.
I have been in about two or three good PUGs in my whole MMO experience. Maybe the games themselves are to blame.
Maybe I should make a signature expressing my dismay that I find myself championing old EQ so much these days. God, I thought by this point that things would be so much better.
But anyway, Goronian, I think you have some misconceptions about EQ because you said it invented the solo grinding experience. Now it's true (despite what some people will say) that you could solo in EQ. It helped if you picked a class which was good at it. But the primary thing to do in EQ was grouping and Pick-up groups were the primary form of grouping prior to high levels and prior to the changing focus of the game. I'm mostly talking about the first few years of EQ and I'm not talking about raiding.
Think about this...EVERY DAY...when you logged into EQ you would get into a PUG unless you intentionally avoided it because you felt like being alone. And most of those groups were just fine. Occassionally you would get stuck with an idiot or an asshole but that was more the exception than the rule. In the four plus years I played EQ I can only remember one time when a guy was such a jerk that I actually kicked him out of my group (and he was a cleric). Of course I wasn't always the group leader but I wasn't shy about starting groups so it wasn't uncommon for me to be the leader.
Sometimes you got a guy who was kind of a jerk but not so bad you couldn't put up with it and even that created some social fun when people started /whispering to each other making jokes about the guy behind his back. Sometimes you got an idiot who did stupid things and, well, that's just the way it goes but even that gave you some funny stories to tell your friends, like, "This guy was such an idiot he bound himself on the INSIDE of the unrest zone line and got caught in a death loop."
But think about that, Goronian. Back in old EQ we did pick-up groups with people EVERY DAY and the vast majority of those groups were friendly and fun. The people you were grouped with would actually chat with you. And there were usually other groups of people around in the same zone doing their own thing and that added another layer to the social experience.
And when you grouped with people it wasn't like in some modern games where you are technically grouped put really you're all just running around doing your own thing. No, when you grouped in EQ you worked together as a group. People would really and truly notice it if you did a good job. When your group got in trouble you were ALL in trouble together. When you did well it was because everyone in the group was doing their job.
And this was the common day to day experience in the game...EVERY DAY.
And people wonder why some of us old EQ players miss it so much and they try to say you can get the same thing from modern games. Yeah, right....I wish. If you think social interaction is the key to mmorpgs then, my God, I wish you could have been there in the first few years of EQ. And it wasn't just the grouping it was the whole atmosphere in that game but the grouping was the backbone of it all.
Darnit, my keyboard is soaked with drool now.
THIS is what I want from a game, for f's sake. Why can't I have it?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
