Obviously, other people seems to be the big problem here. BUT..what can a game developer really do about that? Not much considering the real problem is the World we live in. So on that note, I'm not going to mention the things that a developer has no control over, like community.
that being said here is my list of issues that kill immersion:
Sound and Music - The greatest movies have the best sound and soundtrack. Try watching lord of the rings or Star Wars or Braveheart without the awesome sound effects and music. doesn't quite work does it? This should be applied to all games, whether you listen to the ingame music or not.
Invisible Walls
Instanced zones instead of open world zones. i.e. WoW does this well, EQ2 does not.
Lack of storyL Gotta give me story in more than just quest text and background lore. I point to FFXI and LOTRO for prime examples of how to do it right.
Basically that's my main immersion breakers. Sure, that jerk that ran by with the stupid name like xxxSepirothxxx is annoying but every world has it's idiots lol.
Okay, 4 things more than anything kill the immersion for me.
1. Community
It's not that it's a community of assholes that kills it for me, they could be roleplaying one. It's that it's a community of asshats complaining about RL issues in a game because they can't find anyone in RL that gives a damn to listen to their problems. Even more than that, just any mention of RL where it's not necessary, such as "brb, ____ calls" or "omg, this JUST HAPPENED" or some kind of "this is what's happening in my life" when you just get on kind of kills the feeling that i'm in so and so fantasy world unless of course, you're all in the medium and just looking to be social, in which RL could be a valid subject.
I'll go so far as to agree with public chat channels. If I want to be immersed, I want the only chat to be within talk/shout range and there shouldn't be a chat log. If you don't hear it., they should have to repeat it and the text input box should only come up when you want to talk, with a bubble above your head (that doesn't follow the screen when you turn) displaying speech. Well what if we're being invaded? A damn town crier can tell me. Not some nub on the other end of the continent.
2. Gameplay
I absolutely hate when gameplay isn't immersive. Games like EvE, when I spend more time clicking the same things over and over whenever something needs changed to keep power levels steady kills the feeling of immersion in a game. Whatever the action is, I want to feel part of it all the time, not just 3/4 of the time. Though 3/4 of the time is better than I can say for some games, it still isn't good immersion. Hell, watching numbers crunch in MUDs can even be immersive. It's watching combat from a different perspective, sort of like Martine from Tad Williams' book series, Otherland (if anyone gets the reference). I just want to feel part of the combat, and some games don't do it for me.
3. Having a small world
I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't feel immersed when I can reach the edge of the world in anything less than an hour in any direction. It feels way too small and doesn't feel realistic at all. I can understand in sci-fi games where I can jump in the blink of an eye, but in games where you're on land in a fantasy/modern/historical setting and there's hardly any space, there's no point. The immersion is dead to me.
4. Bad quests
I'm not some hired gun and I'm not some manservant either, I don't want all of my quests to be fetch this or kill that. There needs to be variety or it needs to be sandbox where I can make what I want of the game. At least in sandbox games, I can make my own quests.
Bad user intergace - games like shadowbane or anarchy online I just couldn't get past it
Bad gameplay - some games I just can't feel like I am in control or feel like I am actually hitting someone or getting hit
Games that don't have seemless worlds and bad game world design. Large open worlds that still have areas of higher population AND far out areas where you will hardly see anyone really makes the game feel alive. Add into the whether, night and day, seasonal changes, they all make the game FEEL alive. I will never forget in Asheron's Call when it would go from day to night, or start raining, or when the seasons would change the world would change with it. It really FELT alive.
Lack or unique areas, equipment (want dropped based AND craft based), or enemies
Lack of a fun PvP content and a good endgame. Could be a keep based or a zone based CTF or zone control etc. Something to make me want to play in a competitive fashion in groups or a duel type system.
CHEATING - rampant cheater just ruins a game.
Macroning - when this gets bad the game just doensn't feel alive
ELITEism - If I can't feel like I can compete without playing the game 24/7 it just isn't fun
Community
Lack of things to do - quests, exploration, pvp type games/stuff
People randomly emoting. They're usually not funny and look awkward. Especially "naked mailbox dancers". Actually, Leifeldian females in MMOs is what bugs me. When a "hawt elf" is swinging a sword, that looks heavier, than she does and clips through her boobs - that's where I draw the line.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
On the topic at hand, I could write numerous articles about immersion, but I will try to summarize.
On community:
Games don't take themselves seriously enough.
This is what I believe leads to the "bad community" in the sense of horrendous names, bad emotes, and general idiocy.
Human beings are surprisingly malleable creatures. You drop one in a professional environment, and they tend to act professional. In games like WoW, that is filled to the brim with pop culture and idiocy, people will adapt and begin taking a similar mindset.
Adding depth and difficulty to the game helps to promote a degree of professionalism. In old EQ people tended to not dick around in pugs, as they knew it could wipe them and set everyone back hours creating a disdain towards them by the rest of the community. And yes, there will always be exceptions. Its the nature of numbers.
But, Look at today's games. Does death really matter in any of them? Do people have anything to fear being branded outcast by their peers for childish behavior? Does personal identity even still exist in the mmo gamespace?
Small Personal things that kill immersion for me:
First person perspective not being the norm.
Being inundated with "quests".
Voice Chat causes more harm than good, in my opinion. Typing tends to make people more concise and leaves it there for other people to see when they get to it.
People who are incapable of forming somewhat correct words and sentences. U, ur, ne1, 2, etc... Oftentimes I want to shoot people when I see that much butchering of language. I have seen college level papers turned in written like that. Shorthand has permeated our society too much. It is disgusting, and I believe we are all stupider for having been exposed to it.
...There's quite a bit more, but after visualizing my last point, I need to go blow off some steam.
On the topic at hand, I could write numerous articles about immersion, but I will try to summarize.
On community:
Games don't take themselves seriously enough.
This is what I believe leads to the "bad community" in the sense of horrendous names, bad emotes, and general idiocy.
Human beings are surprisingly malleable creatures. You drop one in a professional environment, and they tend to act professional. In games like WoW, that is filled to the brim with pop culture and idiocy, people will adapt and begin taking a similar mindset.
Adding depth and difficulty to the game helps to promote a degree of professionalism. In old EQ people tended to not dick around in pugs, as they knew it could wipe them and set everyone back hours creating a disdain towards them by the rest of the community. And yes, there will always be exceptions. Its the nature of numbers.
But, Look at today's games. Does death really matter in any of them? Do people have anything to fear being branded outcast by their peers for childish behavior? Does personal identity even still exist in the mmo gamespace?
Small Personal things that kill immersion for me:
First person perspective not being the norm.
Being inundated with "quests".
Voice Chat causes more harm than good, in my opinion. Typing tends to make people more concise and leaves it there for other people to see when they get to it.
People who are incapable of forming somewhat correct words and sentences. U, ur, ne1, 2, etc... Oftentimes I want to shoot people when I see that much butchering of language. I have seen college level papers turned in written like that. Shorthand has permeated our society too much. It is disgusting, and I believe we are all stupider for having been exposed to it.
...There's quite a bit more, but after visualizing my last point, I need to go blow off some steam.
Signed.
Except for the first-person part, but still.
I like the point about "inseriousness" of games. Unles it makes sense in setting, like CO, for example, it really needs to go.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
1. Chat tabs. While chat bubbles arent the solution I would suggest that any chat has only the range of a chat bubble! I remember guild meetings where we would all meet in the guild house and talk "in the room" so to speak....now its all done on chat panels from every part of the map which doesnt do much for getting that community feeling going.
2. Vent type chat. Sure they can help in pvp or raids etc but like many of you have said, it is a bit of a downer hearing the heroic leader of your raid is Alvin the Chipmunk.
3. Player names.
4. Over-instancing.
UO beta, etc etc ---> present day. Currently in LOTRO while waiting for another DAOC to arrive!.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
1. Community.
This is not something the developers can control directly.. but they can indirectly. WoW for example. Is designed with alot of "immersive" factors. Zoneless world, huge amount of lore. But, they counteract those things with easy quests, question marks, number crunching raids, and purple shines. They also made the game available to all intelligence levels.. so even the most idiotic of people are able to play it. "CAN I HAV 1G PLZ, 4 SORD"? or any of the chuck norris, and innappropriate content that people talk about in the open chat channels. Sometimes I wonder where the parents are.
2. Silly names
Kind of hard to feel like your in Norrath, or Azeroth, or Hyboria when your trying to adventure with a guy named "FEARDOTDOT" or "BLACKWARRIOR" yet the character is like a mage or something. Or better yet, the people who name their characters the "class". So, mages are "FROSTMAGE" or "FIREMAGE" or "TREEDRUID". Then the people who don't even use nouns as names.. like.. "Istabyou" or "pewpewlazerz". And finally the unoriginal names.. like Legolas, Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall and the many variations of. This also spreads to guild names with stuff like <At Least we took Stables>, <The Gnome Depot>, <OMGWTFBBQ>. There was a guild recruiting the last time I played WoW.. in trade channel (why?) I can't remember the guilds name.. but the ad went something lke this..
"<stupidguildname> is recruiting. We are a weed based guild. We are looking for like minded individuals who want to have fun and are interested in Chronic. 18+ only PST"
and they were serious..
3. Allowing kids to play.
I know I will get crucified for this, but I have a 2 year old myself and I still get completely annoyed by all the kids that play these games. They have xbox and wii for that. These games should be complicated enough that a kid wouldn't want to play it. If not that, there should be a way to restrict servers to ages. They do it with porn, why not MMO's? Sure its not just kids who cause issues.. but I would guess that the majority of the trash talkers and general idiots in game are not 18. Age of Conan was supposed to be an adult game.. and you see where that went. I don't remember playing with alot of youngsters in UO or EQ... there were a few.. but they were usually the well mannered intelligent ones. Since you can play WoW on a toaster, every halo player on the planet can install it and play on his emachines.
4. Easymode.
Quests that are marked to be easy to find. Linear quests and quest areas where quests follow each other in a row. Mini maps that tell you where things are that you've never been to previously. Mobs that drop aggro after you run away for a few seconds. No death penalty. Being able to travel anywhere easily. It should be hard to get from one part of the world to the far reaches of the other. Too much stuff is soloable. Addons that do more than change the UI slightly.
5. Voice Chat
There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it. I listen to other people's whiny and annoying voices all day long while I am at work. MMO's are my way to have interaction without having to deal with the "real" side of people. Everyone is supposed to be somene else for the time they are playing. So, like someone else said.. if your an orc.. I don't want to hear a 13 year old boys voice talking about random nonsense. I also don't want to hear a 30 year old, complain about the game over vent. As a matter of fact, I don't want to hear anything at all other than the games music and sound effects.
6. Instancing.
Instanced dungeons, Instanced PVP, Instances ANYTHING.. it all screws up immersion for me. I want to see other people adventuring. It bothers me knowing 400 other people are killing Van Cleef at the same time, yet they will never see each other.
7. Leet Speak and excessive use of acronyms.
I mentioned this somewhat previously.. but when all you see in chat is.. "LF1M VC PST" or "LF BS PST" it kind of kills any immersion there may have been. Is it really that hard to spell out the words?
My general conclusion is that people are rude and lazy... On that same note.. game developers are comprised of alot of these rude and lazy people and thus the games are catered for those people because the rest of us are in a minority.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
5. Voice Chat There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it.
When people say they need Vent to Coordinate, I always laugh and think back to the elaborate CH chains from EQ.
1. Community. This is not something the developers can control directly.. but they can indirectly. WoW for example. Is designed with alot of "immersive" factors. Zoneless world, huge amount of lore. But, they counteract those things with easy quests, question marks, number crunching raids, and purple shines. They also made the game available to all intelligence levels.. so even the most idiotic of people are able to play it. "CAN I HAV 1G PLZ, 4 SORD"? or any of the chuck norris, and innappropriate content that people talk about in the open chat channels. Sometimes I wonder where the parents are.
2. Silly names Kind of hard to feel like your in Norrath, or Azeroth, or Hyboria when your trying to adventure with a guy named "FEARDOTDOT" or "BLACKWARRIOR" yet the character is like a mage or something. Or better yet, the people who name their characters the "class". So, mages are "FROSTMAGE" or "FIREMAGE" or "TREEDRUID". Then the people who don't even use nouns as names.. like.. "Istabyou" or "pewpewlazerz". And finally the unoriginal names.. like Legolas, Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall and the many variations of. This also spreads to guild names with stuff like <At Least we took Stables>, <The Gnome Depot>, <OMGWTFBBQ>. There was a guild recruiting the last time I played WoW.. in trade channel (why?) I can't remember the guilds name.. but the ad went something lke this.. "<stupidguildname> is recruiting. We are a weed based guild. We are looking for like minded individuals who want to have fun and are interested in Chronic. 18+ only PST" and they were serious.. 3. Allowing kids to play. I know I will get crucified for this, but I have a 2 year old myself and I still get completely annoyed by all the kids that play these games. They have xbox and wii for that. These games should be complicated enough that a kid wouldn't want to play it. If not that, there should be a way to restrict servers to ages. They do it with porn, why not MMO's? Sure its not just kids who cause issues.. but I would guess that the majority of the trash talkers and general idiots in game are not 18. Age of Conan was supposed to be an adult game.. and you see where that went. I don't remember playing with alot of youngsters in UO or EQ... there were a few.. but they were usually the well mannered intelligent ones. Since you can play WoW on a toaster, every halo player on the planet can install it and play on his emachines. 4. Easymode. Quests that are marked to be easy to find. Linear quests and quest areas where quests follow each other in a row. Mini maps that tell you where things are that you've never been to previously. Mobs that drop aggro after you run away for a few seconds. No death penalty. Being able to travel anywhere easily. It should be hard to get from one part of the world to the far reaches of the other. Too much stuff is soloable. Addons that do more than change the UI slightly. 5. Voice Chat There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it. I listen to other people's whiny and annoying voices all day long while I am at work. MMO's are my way to have interaction without having to deal with the "real" side of people. Everyone is supposed to be somene else for the time they are playing. So, like someone else said.. if your an orc.. I don't want to hear a 13 year old boys voice talking about random nonsense. I also don't want to hear a 30 year old, complain about the game over vent. As a matter of fact, I don't want to hear anything at all other than the games music and sound effects. 6. Instancing. Instanced dungeons, Instanced PVP, Instances ANYTHING.. it all screws up immersion for me. I want to see other people adventuring. It bothers me knowing 400 other people are killing Van Cleef at the same time, yet they will never see each other. 7. Leet Speak and excessive use of acronyms. I mentioned this somewhat previously.. but when all you see in chat is.. "LF1M VC PST" or "LF BS PST" it kind of kills any immersion there may have been. Is it really that hard to spell out the words?
My general conclusion is that people are rude and lazy... On that same note.. game developers are comprised of alot of these rude and lazy people and thus the games are catered for those people because the rest of us are in a minority.
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Game crashing alot and long queue lines...that kills it for me. :P As for public chat channels, being that it seems that most folks are newbies coming from that "well-known" game...none of them can read it seems, as they use trade for chat and general chat for trade, and tend to hold all their conversations on the shout and or yell channels. Mainly because it seems they are attracted by the pretty red font. And perhaps that gives them a feeling of being important or noticed.
In the old days..or back in the day as it is termed now, yell or shout were used for "emergencies"....to warn of danger.......
My solution, turn off chat channels that are full of sillyness. End of problem.
I prefer guild chat, as I don't tend to join guilds full of immature asshats. :P
1. Community. This is not something the developers can control directly.. but they can indirectly. WoW for example. Is designed with alot of "immersive" factors. Zoneless world, huge amount of lore. But, they counteract those things with easy quests, question marks, number crunching raids, and purple shines. They also made the game available to all intelligence levels.. so even the most idiotic of people are able to play it. "CAN I HAV 1G PLZ, 4 SORD"? or any of the chuck norris, and innappropriate content that people talk about in the open chat channels. Sometimes I wonder where the parents are.
2. Silly names Kind of hard to feel like your in Norrath, or Azeroth, or Hyboria when your trying to adventure with a guy named "FEARDOTDOT" or "BLACKWARRIOR" yet the character is like a mage or something. Or better yet, the people who name their characters the "class". So, mages are "FROSTMAGE" or "FIREMAGE" or "TREEDRUID". Then the people who don't even use nouns as names.. like.. "Istabyou" or "pewpewlazerz". And finally the unoriginal names.. like Legolas, Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall and the many variations of. This also spreads to guild names with stuff like <At Least we took Stables>, <The Gnome Depot>, <OMGWTFBBQ>. There was a guild recruiting the last time I played WoW.. in trade channel (why?) I can't remember the guilds name.. but the ad went something lke this.. "<stupidguildname> is recruiting. We are a weed based guild. We are looking for like minded individuals who want to have fun and are interested in Chronic. 18+ only PST" and they were serious.. 3. Allowing kids to play. I know I will get crucified for this, but I have a 2 year old myself and I still get completely annoyed by all the kids that play these games. They have xbox and wii for that. These games should be complicated enough that a kid wouldn't want to play it. If not that, there should be a way to restrict servers to ages. They do it with porn, why not MMO's? Sure its not just kids who cause issues.. but I would guess that the majority of the trash talkers and general idiots in game are not 18. Age of Conan was supposed to be an adult game.. and you see where that went. I don't remember playing with alot of youngsters in UO or EQ... there were a few.. but they were usually the well mannered intelligent ones. Since you can play WoW on a toaster, every halo player on the planet can install it and play on his emachines. 4. Easymode. Quests that are marked to be easy to find. Linear quests and quest areas where quests follow each other in a row. Mini maps that tell you where things are that you've never been to previously. Mobs that drop aggro after you run away for a few seconds. No death penalty. Being able to travel anywhere easily. It should be hard to get from one part of the world to the far reaches of the other. Too much stuff is soloable. Addons that do more than change the UI slightly. 5. Voice Chat There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it. I listen to other people's whiny and annoying voices all day long while I am at work. MMO's are my way to have interaction without having to deal with the "real" side of people. Everyone is supposed to be somene else for the time they are playing. So, like someone else said.. if your an orc.. I don't want to hear a 13 year old boys voice talking about random nonsense. I also don't want to hear a 30 year old, complain about the game over vent. As a matter of fact, I don't want to hear anything at all other than the games music and sound effects. 6. Instancing. Instanced dungeons, Instanced PVP, Instances ANYTHING.. it all screws up immersion for me. I want to see other people adventuring. It bothers me knowing 400 other people are killing Van Cleef at the same time, yet they will never see each other. 7. Leet Speak and excessive use of acronyms. I mentioned this somewhat previously.. but when all you see in chat is.. "LF1M VC PST" or "LF BS PST" it kind of kills any immersion there may have been. Is it really that hard to spell out the words?
My general conclusion is that people are rude and lazy... On that same note.. game developers are comprised of alot of these rude and lazy people and thus the games are catered for those people because the rest of us are in a minority.
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Those are pretty much my reasons. With the exception of the instancing.
In truth it's certain types of players that ruin it for me. Vent is a huge downer and I try never to use it if I can. sometimes it can be a boon but as a day to day game thing it makes me not want to play.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
1. Community. This is not something the developers can control directly.. but they can indirectly. WoW for example. Is designed with alot of "immersive" factors. Zoneless world, huge amount of lore. But, they counteract those things with easy quests, question marks, number crunching raids, and purple shines. They also made the game available to all intelligence levels.. so even the most idiotic of people are able to play it. "CAN I HAV 1G PLZ, 4 SORD"? or any of the chuck norris, and innappropriate content that people talk about in the open chat channels. Sometimes I wonder where the parents are.
2. Silly names Kind of hard to feel like your in Norrath, or Azeroth, or Hyboria when your trying to adventure with a guy named "FEARDOTDOT" or "BLACKWARRIOR" yet the character is like a mage or something. Or better yet, the people who name their characters the "class". So, mages are "FROSTMAGE" or "FIREMAGE" or "TREEDRUID". Then the people who don't even use nouns as names.. like.. "Istabyou" or "pewpewlazerz". And finally the unoriginal names.. like Legolas, Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall and the many variations of. This also spreads to guild names with stuff like <At Least we took Stables>, <The Gnome Depot>, <OMGWTFBBQ>. There was a guild recruiting the last time I played WoW.. in trade channel (why?) I can't remember the guilds name.. but the ad went something lke this.. "<stupidguildname> is recruiting. We are a weed based guild. We are looking for like minded individuals who want to have fun and are interested in Chronic. 18+ only PST" and they were serious.. 3. Allowing kids to play. I know I will get crucified for this, but I have a 2 year old myself and I still get completely annoyed by all the kids that play these games. They have xbox and wii for that. These games should be complicated enough that a kid wouldn't want to play it. If not that, there should be a way to restrict servers to ages. They do it with porn, why not MMO's? Sure its not just kids who cause issues.. but I would guess that the majority of the trash talkers and general idiots in game are not 18. Age of Conan was supposed to be an adult game.. and you see where that went. I don't remember playing with alot of youngsters in UO or EQ... there were a few.. but they were usually the well mannered intelligent ones. Since you can play WoW on a toaster, every halo player on the planet can install it and play on his emachines. 4. Easymode. Quests that are marked to be easy to find. Linear quests and quest areas where quests follow each other in a row. Mini maps that tell you where things are that you've never been to previously. Mobs that drop aggro after you run away for a few seconds. No death penalty. Being able to travel anywhere easily. It should be hard to get from one part of the world to the far reaches of the other. Too much stuff is soloable. Addons that do more than change the UI slightly. 5. Voice Chat There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it. I listen to other people's whiny and annoying voices all day long while I am at work. MMO's are my way to have interaction without having to deal with the "real" side of people. Everyone is supposed to be somene else for the time they are playing. So, like someone else said.. if your an orc.. I don't want to hear a 13 year old boys voice talking about random nonsense. I also don't want to hear a 30 year old, complain about the game over vent. As a matter of fact, I don't want to hear anything at all other than the games music and sound effects. 6. Instancing. Instanced dungeons, Instanced PVP, Instances ANYTHING.. it all screws up immersion for me. I want to see other people adventuring. It bothers me knowing 400 other people are killing Van Cleef at the same time, yet they will never see each other. 7. Leet Speak and excessive use of acronyms. I mentioned this somewhat previously.. but when all you see in chat is.. "LF1M VC PST" or "LF BS PST" it kind of kills any immersion there may have been. Is it really that hard to spell out the words?
My general conclusion is that people are rude and lazy... On that same note.. game developers are comprised of alot of these rude and lazy people and thus the games are catered for those people because the rest of us are in a minority.
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Newp you're not the only one......and like me, and the poster you quoted, we seem to be in the minority now, when it comes to naming.
I have never ever been required to change a character name because it was inappropriate or it copied a name from a movie or book...basically INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
People have no imaginations these days, don't roleplay their characters..hence they are proud of names such as IpwnedURface..etc.
Twelve year olds. As for segregation, I agree and don't agree. Segregation of servers based on age won't work. Segregation based on roleplay doesn't work, that just encourages the griefer asshats. Some people take joy in ruining others game play because they are so very sad in and of themselves.
Don't see a solution to this....other than as time goes on, there will be less and less of us "old-school" players and more and more of the other kind..........just remember 11 million newbies from that "other" game, coming to a game near you.
That will be the progression. More hand holding more nerf debates....I'm glad I am almost at the end of my gaming....been planning to retire from it, as these days it seems the games (other than recent rpgs) have all gone the way of either rmt or Wow clones.
And the current communities for the most part.........make me shake my head.
To be honest, I'm fine with a lot of things, so I'm not really bothered with whether I am immersed in a game or not. I just take it as what it is; a game, something to enjoy and take out my fustrations on the hapless monsters that come my way. Hence, I am perfectly fine with silly names (I have about one or two myself actually, but they're still relevant to the game world anyway, since they are named in the style of Ritualist skills), and chat about real life issues. After all, we do need to vent sometimes, especially if there is no one on our side of the world who will actually listen.
However, what really, really annoys me, is flame wars. Nothing annoys me more than walking into a city amid a raging flame war, with swear words left right center. I absoutely hate swearing; nothing puts me off a man more than swearing, especially if the person doesn't even have a valid reason to swear in the first place. Either I turn off the chat, or I just get out of there.
To be honest, I'm fine with a lot of things, so I'm not really bothered with whether I am immersed in a game or not. I just take it as what it is; a game, something to enjoy and take out my fustrations on the hapless monsters that come my way. Hence, I am perfectly fine with silly names (I have about one or two myself actually, but they're still relevant to the game world anyway, since they are named in the style of Ritualist skills), and chat about real life issues. After all, we do need to vent sometimes, especially if there is no one on our side of the world who will actually listen. However, what really, really annoys me, is flame wars. Nothing annoys me more than walking into a city amid a raging flame war, with swear words left right center. I absoutely hate swearing; nothing puts me off a man more than swearing, especially if the person doesn't even have a valid reason to swear in the first place. Either I turn off the chat, or I just get out of there.
Ah yes..cussing. I just put it down to people learning a new swear word and having to practice it alot to see what effect it has. :P
Easy enough to turn the chat channel off..most times I find they interfere with private chat anyways. Most games these days have a feature where you can click the chat tab and uncheck it from the line up. Not a game breaker for me, and if I don't wish to be subjected or be a captive audience to someone's idiocy...thats what I do.
If you want immersion, choose a single-player game. MMO's are not immersive. Chat alone is an immersion wrecker. Even when chat is about the game, it isn't in character, just LFG etc...And when the Chuck Norris jokes start, time for the combat only tab.
You know....I pretty much agree with that. And it's probably why I really really enjoy games like Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. For the length of time I'm playing it.....I AM a vampire, and all that "being" a vampire entails.
There is no way to have that kind of immersion in an MMO. SOME human being will f**k it up. That being said, I still enjoy MMOs, but I suppose I have come to expect them to NOT be so immersive. If only someone could make a single player RPG where the game doesn't have a clear ending, and lasts for years and years always offering new quests and parts of the world to explore.....
Endgame. Being stuck in a god damn dungeon,raid or instance pvp item farm kills immersion for me. I go from playing in a living breathing world, exploring new zones to waiting on Raid lock out timers and pvp queues.
This for me also.
I mean, going back over and over to get a certain item, where everything is identical to the last time visited.
"Hey, didn't I just kill you yesterday?! You don't recognize me kicking your ass the other day? Why not just give me what I want now and save yourself some ground-licking pain huh?"
Comments
Obviously, other people seems to be the big problem here. BUT..what can a game developer really do about that? Not much considering the real problem is the World we live in. So on that note, I'm not going to mention the things that a developer has no control over, like community.
that being said here is my list of issues that kill immersion:
Sound and Music - The greatest movies have the best sound and soundtrack. Try watching lord of the rings or Star Wars or Braveheart without the awesome sound effects and music. doesn't quite work does it? This should be applied to all games, whether you listen to the ingame music or not.
Invisible Walls
Instanced zones instead of open world zones. i.e. WoW does this well, EQ2 does not.
Lack of storyL Gotta give me story in more than just quest text and background lore. I point to FFXI and LOTRO for prime examples of how to do it right.
Basically that's my main immersion breakers. Sure, that jerk that ran by with the stupid name like xxxSepirothxxx is annoying but every world has it's idiots lol.
Okay, 4 things more than anything kill the immersion for me.
1. Community
It's not that it's a community of assholes that kills it for me, they could be roleplaying one. It's that it's a community of asshats complaining about RL issues in a game because they can't find anyone in RL that gives a damn to listen to their problems. Even more than that, just any mention of RL where it's not necessary, such as "brb, ____ calls" or "omg, this JUST HAPPENED" or some kind of "this is what's happening in my life" when you just get on kind of kills the feeling that i'm in so and so fantasy world unless of course, you're all in the medium and just looking to be social, in which RL could be a valid subject.
I'll go so far as to agree with public chat channels. If I want to be immersed, I want the only chat to be within talk/shout range and there shouldn't be a chat log. If you don't hear it., they should have to repeat it and the text input box should only come up when you want to talk, with a bubble above your head (that doesn't follow the screen when you turn) displaying speech. Well what if we're being invaded? A damn town crier can tell me. Not some nub on the other end of the continent.
2. Gameplay
I absolutely hate when gameplay isn't immersive. Games like EvE, when I spend more time clicking the same things over and over whenever something needs changed to keep power levels steady kills the feeling of immersion in a game. Whatever the action is, I want to feel part of it all the time, not just 3/4 of the time. Though 3/4 of the time is better than I can say for some games, it still isn't good immersion. Hell, watching numbers crunch in MUDs can even be immersive. It's watching combat from a different perspective, sort of like Martine from Tad Williams' book series, Otherland (if anyone gets the reference). I just want to feel part of the combat, and some games don't do it for me.
3. Having a small world
I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't feel immersed when I can reach the edge of the world in anything less than an hour in any direction. It feels way too small and doesn't feel realistic at all. I can understand in sci-fi games where I can jump in the blink of an eye, but in games where you're on land in a fantasy/modern/historical setting and there's hardly any space, there's no point. The immersion is dead to me.
4. Bad quests
I'm not some hired gun and I'm not some manservant either, I don't want all of my quests to be fetch this or kill that. There needs to be variety or it needs to be sandbox where I can make what I want of the game. At least in sandbox games, I can make my own quests.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
People randomly emoting. They're usually not funny and look awkward. Especially "naked mailbox dancers". Actually, Leifeldian females in MMOs is what bugs me. When a "hawt elf" is swinging a sword, that looks heavier, than she does and clips through her boobs - that's where I draw the line.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I laughed.
On the topic at hand, I could write numerous articles about immersion, but I will try to summarize.
On community:
Games don't take themselves seriously enough.
This is what I believe leads to the "bad community" in the sense of horrendous names, bad emotes, and general idiocy.
Human beings are surprisingly malleable creatures. You drop one in a professional environment, and they tend to act professional. In games like WoW, that is filled to the brim with pop culture and idiocy, people will adapt and begin taking a similar mindset.
Adding depth and difficulty to the game helps to promote a degree of professionalism. In old EQ people tended to not dick around in pugs, as they knew it could wipe them and set everyone back hours creating a disdain towards them by the rest of the community. And yes, there will always be exceptions. Its the nature of numbers.
But, Look at today's games. Does death really matter in any of them? Do people have anything to fear being branded outcast by their peers for childish behavior? Does personal identity even still exist in the mmo gamespace?
Small Personal things that kill immersion for me:
First person perspective not being the norm.
Being inundated with "quests".
Voice Chat causes more harm than good, in my opinion. Typing tends to make people more concise and leaves it there for other people to see when they get to it.
People who are incapable of forming somewhat correct words and sentences. U, ur, ne1, 2, etc... Oftentimes I want to shoot people when I see that much butchering of language. I have seen college level papers turned in written like that. Shorthand has permeated our society too much. It is disgusting, and I believe we are all stupider for having been exposed to it.
...There's quite a bit more, but after visualizing my last point, I need to go blow off some steam.
I laughed.
On the topic at hand, I could write numerous articles about immersion, but I will try to summarize.
On community:
Games don't take themselves seriously enough.
This is what I believe leads to the "bad community" in the sense of horrendous names, bad emotes, and general idiocy.
Human beings are surprisingly malleable creatures. You drop one in a professional environment, and they tend to act professional. In games like WoW, that is filled to the brim with pop culture and idiocy, people will adapt and begin taking a similar mindset.
Adding depth and difficulty to the game helps to promote a degree of professionalism. In old EQ people tended to not dick around in pugs, as they knew it could wipe them and set everyone back hours creating a disdain towards them by the rest of the community. And yes, there will always be exceptions. Its the nature of numbers.
But, Look at today's games. Does death really matter in any of them? Do people have anything to fear being branded outcast by their peers for childish behavior? Does personal identity even still exist in the mmo gamespace?
Small Personal things that kill immersion for me:
First person perspective not being the norm.
Being inundated with "quests".
Voice Chat causes more harm than good, in my opinion. Typing tends to make people more concise and leaves it there for other people to see when they get to it.
People who are incapable of forming somewhat correct words and sentences. U, ur, ne1, 2, etc... Oftentimes I want to shoot people when I see that much butchering of language. I have seen college level papers turned in written like that. Shorthand has permeated our society too much. It is disgusting, and I believe we are all stupider for having been exposed to it.
...There's quite a bit more, but after visualizing my last point, I need to go blow off some steam.
Signed.
Except for the first-person part, but still.
I like the point about "inseriousness" of games. Unles it makes sense in setting, like CO, for example, it really needs to go.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
My wife yelling at me to take out the trash breaks all the immersion for me. 8p
1. Chat tabs. While chat bubbles arent the solution I would suggest that any chat has only the range of a chat bubble! I remember guild meetings where we would all meet in the guild house and talk "in the room" so to speak....now its all done on chat panels from every part of the map which doesnt do much for getting that community feeling going.
2. Vent type chat. Sure they can help in pvp or raids etc but like many of you have said, it is a bit of a downer hearing the heroic leader of your raid is Alvin the Chipmunk.
3. Player names.
4. Over-instancing.
UO beta, etc etc ---> present day.
Currently in LOTRO while waiting for another DAOC to arrive!.
1. Community.
This is not something the developers can control directly.. but they can indirectly. WoW for example. Is designed with alot of "immersive" factors. Zoneless world, huge amount of lore. But, they counteract those things with easy quests, question marks, number crunching raids, and purple shines. They also made the game available to all intelligence levels.. so even the most idiotic of people are able to play it. "CAN I HAV 1G PLZ, 4 SORD"? or any of the chuck norris, and innappropriate content that people talk about in the open chat channels. Sometimes I wonder where the parents are.
2. Silly names
Kind of hard to feel like your in Norrath, or Azeroth, or Hyboria when your trying to adventure with a guy named "FEARDOTDOT" or "BLACKWARRIOR" yet the character is like a mage or something. Or better yet, the people who name their characters the "class". So, mages are "FROSTMAGE" or "FIREMAGE" or "TREEDRUID". Then the people who don't even use nouns as names.. like.. "Istabyou" or "pewpewlazerz". And finally the unoriginal names.. like Legolas, Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall and the many variations of. This also spreads to guild names with stuff like <At Least we took Stables>, <The Gnome Depot>, <OMGWTFBBQ>. There was a guild recruiting the last time I played WoW.. in trade channel (why?) I can't remember the guilds name.. but the ad went something lke this..
"<stupidguildname> is recruiting. We are a weed based guild. We are looking for like minded individuals who want to have fun and are interested in Chronic. 18+ only PST"
and they were serious..
3. Allowing kids to play.
I know I will get crucified for this, but I have a 2 year old myself and I still get completely annoyed by all the kids that play these games. They have xbox and wii for that. These games should be complicated enough that a kid wouldn't want to play it. If not that, there should be a way to restrict servers to ages. They do it with porn, why not MMO's? Sure its not just kids who cause issues.. but I would guess that the majority of the trash talkers and general idiots in game are not 18. Age of Conan was supposed to be an adult game.. and you see where that went. I don't remember playing with alot of youngsters in UO or EQ... there were a few.. but they were usually the well mannered intelligent ones. Since you can play WoW on a toaster, every halo player on the planet can install it and play on his emachines.
4. Easymode.
Quests that are marked to be easy to find. Linear quests and quest areas where quests follow each other in a row. Mini maps that tell you where things are that you've never been to previously. Mobs that drop aggro after you run away for a few seconds. No death penalty. Being able to travel anywhere easily. It should be hard to get from one part of the world to the far reaches of the other. Too much stuff is soloable. Addons that do more than change the UI slightly.
5. Voice Chat
There is not one person who can give me a valid reason why voice chat "must" be used in order to complete game content. I did all the hardest encounters back in the day on the games that still had hard content.. without it. Don' t sit here and try to tell me that we can't clear a WoW raid without having to use it. I listen to other people's whiny and annoying voices all day long while I am at work. MMO's are my way to have interaction without having to deal with the "real" side of people. Everyone is supposed to be somene else for the time they are playing. So, like someone else said.. if your an orc.. I don't want to hear a 13 year old boys voice talking about random nonsense. I also don't want to hear a 30 year old, complain about the game over vent. As a matter of fact, I don't want to hear anything at all other than the games music and sound effects.
6. Instancing.
Instanced dungeons, Instanced PVP, Instances ANYTHING.. it all screws up immersion for me. I want to see other people adventuring. It bothers me knowing 400 other people are killing Van Cleef at the same time, yet they will never see each other.
7. Leet Speak and excessive use of acronyms.
I mentioned this somewhat previously.. but when all you see in chat is.. "LF1M VC PST" or "LF BS PST" it kind of kills any immersion there may have been. Is it really that hard to spell out the words?
My general conclusion is that people are rude and lazy... On that same note.. game developers are comprised of alot of these rude and lazy people and thus the games are catered for those people because the rest of us are in a minority.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
I don't get "immersed." I take it for what it is. A game.
When people say they need Vent to Coordinate, I always laugh and think back to the elaborate CH chains from EQ.
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Game crashing alot and long queue lines...that kills it for me. :P As for public chat channels, being that it seems that most folks are newbies coming from that "well-known" game...none of them can read it seems, as they use trade for chat and general chat for trade, and tend to hold all their conversations on the shout and or yell channels. Mainly because it seems they are attracted by the pretty red font. And perhaps that gives them a feeling of being important or noticed.
In the old days..or back in the day as it is termed now, yell or shout were used for "emergencies"....to warn of danger.......
My solution, turn off chat channels that are full of sillyness. End of problem.
I prefer guild chat, as I don't tend to join guilds full of immature asshats. :P
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Those are pretty much my reasons. With the exception of the instancing.
In truth it's certain types of players that ruin it for me. Vent is a huge downer and I try never to use it if I can. sometimes it can be a boon but as a day to day game thing it makes me not want to play.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So I'm not the only one :O?
I hate when people choose to not spell out words >_> Sometimes they will say a word and leave out ONE letter, in a attempt to be lazy?
I also dislike voice chat, and hate games where they try and force you to use it, being a female gamer the pressure to do so is even worse. Unfortunatley the internet is a breeding ground for immaturity and morons. Those of us who hold ourselves to a higher standard have a hard time in this world.
Kids playing... See Mabinogi.. What should be one of the most unique and adorable MMO's is ruined by the most childish community you will ever play in. The players use "mods" with such blatant disregard for the rules that cheating is encouraged by half of the community! It's sad really..
Silly names? Yep I hate them too. I always go through a lot trying to pick a good name for my character. I actually use baby naming sites and look for names I like the best. When and If I ever have a daughter i'm good to go when it comes to naming her :O
I can't understand why people use gross and stupid names when they name their characters. I'm sure you don't need examples of these, so I won't give any.
Newp you're not the only one......and like me, and the poster you quoted, we seem to be in the minority now, when it comes to naming.
I have never ever been required to change a character name because it was inappropriate or it copied a name from a movie or book...basically INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
People have no imaginations these days, don't roleplay their characters..hence they are proud of names such as IpwnedURface..etc.
Twelve year olds. As for segregation, I agree and don't agree. Segregation of servers based on age won't work. Segregation based on roleplay doesn't work, that just encourages the griefer asshats. Some people take joy in ruining others game play because they are so very sad in and of themselves.
Don't see a solution to this....other than as time goes on, there will be less and less of us "old-school" players and more and more of the other kind..........just remember 11 million newbies from that "other" game, coming to a game near you.
That will be the progression. More hand holding more nerf debates....I'm glad I am almost at the end of my gaming....been planning to retire from it, as these days it seems the games (other than recent rpgs) have all gone the way of either rmt or Wow clones.
And the current communities for the most part.........make me shake my head.
To be honest, I'm fine with a lot of things, so I'm not really bothered with whether I am immersed in a game or not. I just take it as what it is; a game, something to enjoy and take out my fustrations on the hapless monsters that come my way. Hence, I am perfectly fine with silly names (I have about one or two myself actually, but they're still relevant to the game world anyway, since they are named in the style of Ritualist skills), and chat about real life issues. After all, we do need to vent sometimes, especially if there is no one on our side of the world who will actually listen.
However, what really, really annoys me, is flame wars. Nothing annoys me more than walking into a city amid a raging flame war, with swear words left right center. I absoutely hate swearing; nothing puts me off a man more than swearing, especially if the person doesn't even have a valid reason to swear in the first place. Either I turn off the chat, or I just get out of there.
Main characters:
Jinn Gone Quiet (Guild Wars)
Princess Pudding (Guild Wars)
Endgame.
Being stuck in a god damn dungeon,raid or instance pvp item farm kills immersion for me.
I go from playing in a living breathing world, exploring new zones to waiting on Raid lock out timers and pvp queues.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Ah yes..cussing. I just put it down to people learning a new swear word and having to practice it alot to see what effect it has. :P
Easy enough to turn the chat channel off..most times I find they interfere with private chat anyways. Most games these days have a feature where you can click the chat tab and uncheck it from the line up. Not a game breaker for me, and if I don't wish to be subjected or be a captive audience to someone's idiocy...thats what I do.
Being able to easily solo to the level cap while doing pointless quests that don't affect the gameworld.
bots.10orsochar
I need more vespene gas.
I noticed some of you pointing you that it´s just a game.
Yes it is just a game but there are a ways to insert some degree if realism without dumbing everything down and still mainting the the "fun factor".
Dumbed down games attract ...well... not so bright people.
Usually they re the ones being the loudest and most annyoing.
www.rocklynn.se
Zones with loading screens and lots of instances of those zones.
'Worlds' that consist of narrow little corridors where you progress from one end to the other.
Getting single digit fps.
Poor UI design.
You know....I pretty much agree with that. And it's probably why I really really enjoy games like Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. For the length of time I'm playing it.....I AM a vampire, and all that "being" a vampire entails.
There is no way to have that kind of immersion in an MMO. SOME human being will f**k it up. That being said, I still enjoy MMOs, but I suppose I have come to expect them to NOT be so immersive. If only someone could make a single player RPG where the game doesn't have a clear ending, and lasts for years and years always offering new quests and parts of the world to explore.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The fact that nothing I do in the game world actually affects the world. Everything respawns and quests are repeated over and over again.
I miss events that AC used to host monthly; if I remember correctly. The world was changing and it felt like you actually made a difference.
This for me also.
I mean, going back over and over to get a certain item, where everything is identical to the last time visited.
"Hey, didn't I just kill you yesterday?! You don't recognize me kicking your ass the other day? Why not just give me what I want now and save yourself some ground-licking pain huh?"