Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
What was the reason?
decade85
Member Posts: 65
I don't mean to ruffle the feathers of all the old SWG vets (me included). What was the reasoning behind the CU? Was there anything wrong with SWG:Pre-NGE from the players perspective?
Just to clarify: What was SOE's reason for the CU (I don't remember, it's been 5 years or so)?
I remember SOE's reason for the NGE, but did any of the players see anything wrong with the game before the NGE?
Comments
Bugs in the then current skills and abilities along with balancing issues. Also add in that it was skill based on not level based which goes against the grain and what SOE feels is a better MMO experience.
craptastic and legendary in its epic fail. This will forever go down as the biggest blunder in MMO history.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
The CU was born of requests from players to fix broken specials and balance professions. When the devs opened up comments on what players wanted to see in the update they were suprised at what the player requested, in fact Thunderheart commented that what the had planned was far short of what players were expecting the update to be.
So then they opened up on what they were going to do and we get the CU, which was the placeholder for the NGE.
Problems with combat balance (particularly the "unhealable" mind pool) in PvP, persistant bugs, lack of directed content, lack of tools for player created content, the general unfinished, unpolished nature of the game.
Players could see the potential in the game, but were frustrated by the seeming inablity of the developers to fulfill it.
The combat system was quite complex, quite deep, and this made it difficult to deal with, particularly when you spent all your time listening to the whines of duelists when the balance was achieved by teamwork in group PvP.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
A lot of what has already been said is what I remember. The mind pool wasn't working well, and there were other imbalances in the game because of buffs and armour. Also, many of the professions were added to the game very shortly before release, and they had a ton of bugs. Work on playable content was also in its very, very early stages when the game was pushed live.
However, this is why players and devs were working on something called the Combat Rebalance. It would have addressed problems with the mind pool, buffs armour etc. Devs were also working on bug fixes and adding content. Had this been implemented, I have no doubt that the game would still be going strong, and that I would be playing it.
Instead of following through on this work, someone made a radical change in the game's direction. Someone at the top of the management structure it seems. I read the adds in StarWars Insider about the CU. It emphasized how it would appeal to those who were enjoying flashy new MMOs like WoW.
We got a level system, like WoW. We got shiny new icons to click for our skills, like WoW. We got magic heals, like WoW, and we got the more WoW-like content of Kashyyk that was released at about the same time as the CU.
People from SOE have said--much after the fact--that there was no intent to copy WoW. If they believe that, then they didn't read their own press that highlighted how many of the changes were specifically designed to appeal to the WoW audience.
Later, we got 9 professions, exactly like WoW; a modified UI that was a lot more like WoW's; an experience bar at the bottom of the screen, exactly like WoW's; and a shift from an ingame economy to a massive focus on loot drops for gear, just like WoW. We also got a profession, eventually that even ripped off its name from WoW: Beastmaster.
So, did we get the CU and then the NGE because the original game had problems? Nope, not at all. Instead of fixing the problems related to the premature launch and staying with the game's vision; the vision itself was changed, it would seem in an attempt to copy other, more successful products.
Really, when I look at the CU, I see WoW in space, but broken. When I look at the NGE, I see more elements of WoW frankensteined onto elements of StarWars Battlefront. WoW may have been the most successful MMO at the time, and Battlefront may have been the most successful StarWars game, but trying to cobble together some kind of hybrid of the two in 3 months development time while erasing all of your players' progress seems like an act of very misguided desperation.
I loved quite alot of what the CU did but the main problem was the levels so you couldn't mix Crafting and Combat.
It has been a LONG time since I played pre-CU SWG but I seem to remember that all of the classes were not balanced at all. For instance, I had a wookie CH who walk up and tame a baby Rancor. After awhile of that baby rancor growing up, I was able to easily solo a whole nest of adult rancors with using nothing but my pet rancor. Combat Medics were just as bad with their poison attacks, or pistoleers who would continuously pistolwhip or even smugglers who would continuously keep knock-down on his target. Most class types had some unintentional exploit. Back then, everything was easy-mode.
From what I remember.... People crying over the game turning into mainly just Jedi, BH, TKA, CM, Rifleman. Alot of classes was left in the dust. I believe they had it right except for a few things. I was getting the nice ribbon tapes used in armor back when it first came out. They waited way to long to implement that system.
Anyone who rolled a wookie at the release was screwed for almost a year until that Raz armor came out. Think thats what it was called look like a trash can. Doctors were no longer needed except to buff people in town. Creature Handlers were nerfed over and over again. Loved the class and they destroyed it and eventually took it out of the game.
They should of left alot of stuff alone. Yet, they seen how popular WoW became and wanted to try and ride the gravy train. They failed horribly. A lot of vets including myself left as soon as they removed their favorite class.
There was a ton of bugs they could not fix... Mind which was mentioned, everyone went for the same armor, bio-engineer never worked right. The dependecy of a pvper having to have little of medic for b stims then they eventually fixed that making doctor a money maker. So much to say so little time before work to spew it out.
SWG was a great game now its a ball of trashy pixels.
Because SWG was added to the Station Pass 2-3 months before the CU I can't help but think that part of the reasoning behind the CU was simply to make it fit into the generic style of the other Station Pass games (i.e. levels/loot based). This simplifcation of SWG I believe would allow for a lot of shared resources between many of SoE's games.
This is the best explanation thus far. Smedley coveted all things WoW (still does) so he saw SWG as the potential vehicle to make a grab at WoW's playerbase - not just once, but twice (NGE). We all can see how well that turned out. Half of the servers are shut down and more than half of the current servers are dying.
John Smedley, Nancy Mcintyre, and Julio Torres were retarded. That was the reason. Oh. And what ArcAngel3 said.
Highlighted for emphasis. The actual result from the CU was NOT what the playerbase was expecting. The players were expecting what is highlighted above, especially in regards to combat. Huge emphasis on FIXING and adding stuff, not a total revision of the system.
If I wanted to play WoW, I would've been playing it already (and I never did).
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
What was the reason?
Subs dropping at a alarming rate coupled with one of the biggest IP in movie/gaming history.
Something had to change, there is no denying that, would they just fix what was broken would have done it for those of us who enjoyed it (pre-cu), but with a IP like that I can simply not think of anyone in business to think a IP like Star Wars should garner just as little as what they had where it kinda tops at 200/300k, sorry not for a IP like that regardless how I feel or felt about pre-cu.. I hated the change but then I know I am a niche gamer when it comes to playing MMORPG's and I definitly want things very different then the mainstream gamers. SWG-pre-cu gave me that, but even in 2007 for 8 months SWG gave me that, but only because I started over with new toons what made the difference as before almost every time I tried to get back I felt the same like some still do.
Obvious for selfish reasons I can not forgive SOE for what they have done, but for logical reasons I can fully understand what they TRIED, just a shame for them it all backfired on them with the NGE instead of getting more peeps into play they lost allot, which would have carried the game good enough in again my selfish kind of thinking, but can not be something we must expect from a IP like Star Wars.
Like others also mentioned the game was indeed released far to early, we stated this loud and clear (constructive on the Oboards in beta) Especialy the second we heard the news about release date. OVerall the code used for pre-cu was to complex, 1 thing fixed got 3 things broken, no matter how many patches they placed.
Regardless these issue's SWG still gave me the best experiance out of my MMORPG games, no MMORPG has ever come close, thought currently playing and enjoying Fallen Earth where for me atleast the community feel is where it should be in a MMORPG, something that to me stood out with the SWG community, atleast at the time we where ingame. totaly different story in today's forums. Game wise Fallen Earth is nothing like SWG, but bits and pieces do give me atleast some of the feel I liked I SWG especialy exploring not only the lands but also skills/combat/crafting as I like games where I am free to a certain extend to explore possibility's and not be guided into a particulair playstyle, but if Fallen Earth want's to get close game-wise with SWG there should be many things added to the game. Just hope they take the route as CCP (Eve), meaning fleshing out what they have now and build upon that, instead of what many games do is ad, ad and ad more content but issue's fail to be adressed (obviously not always)
What happened?
SWG had 200k/300k... SOE/LEC boasted it's great success (which at that point in time, was true).
WoW came along, hit a million subs.
SOE/LEC, drooling over WoW's new definition of success, decided 200k/300k was no longer a great success.
SOE/LEC decided to turn SWG into WoW.
They were unsuccessful.
If they had left the Pre-CU in the game and had fixed the bugs that did hurt it then I believe SWG would have been pulling in at most a million or two.
What SOE didn't see is a good deal of MMO Players tried the WoW monster out and found that they didn't like it, they wanted something that was more open and friendly to the player base. The CU/NGE didn't do anything to help the game, nor has anything SOE done in the past few years. Rather SOE keeps driving any Players off of SWG with the stupid moves they have done.
According to Don Robenfeild, the CU was done because people werent constantly changing professions. They saw this as bad. Because people would soon get bored and quit. (paraphrasing, but it was something like that) In game however, this is when people started having fun and coming back in droves. Happened at the end of the CU to...
Go figure.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Actually, one of the developers who worked on SWG during that time explained that they were experimenting with some way to make combat better, because people were complaining about it.
So the producer tried out an actiony clicky type of shooter prototype and he thought it was fun. The producer said "There is no way we can't implement this system. It must happen." So it did.
It landed, it didn't get the reception SOE thought it would, so they said they needed to back up and regroup. "People are still complaining.... maybe the game isn't Star Warsy and iconic enough?" Whoever suggested that, I don't know.
SOE had bad intel and they thought they made the best choice for what they had. For some reason, the CSRs / community management team weren't giving accurate info. If they did, it was ignored. This is a classic case of why communication is important. The problem is, SOE is slow to change because of that terrible communication. They'll never learn why it went wrong, they only know that it did.
SOE is a dinosaur in the MMO world. They're going to slowly die out if they don't adapt.
Here's some of my source, the other parts of it I've lost over the years from reformatting.
Actually, one of the developers who worked on SWG during that time explained that they were experimenting with some way to make combat better, because people were complaining about it.
So the producer tried out an actiony clicky type of shooter prototype and he thought it was fun. The producer said "There is no way we can't implement this system. It must happen." So it did.
It landed, it didn't get the reception SOE thought it would, so they said they needed to back up and regroup. People are still complaining.... maybe the game isn't Star Warsy and iconic enough? Whoever suggested that, I don't know.
SOE had bad intel and they thought they made the best choice for what they had. For some reason, the CSRs / community management team weren't giving accurate info. If they did, it was ignored. This is a classic case of why communication is important. The problem is, SOE is slow to change because of that terrible communication. They'll never learn why it went wrong, they only know that it did.
SOE is a dinosaur in the MMO world. They're going to slowly die out if they don't adapt.
SOE has been slowly dying for years now. I honestly have no idea how they maintain games like SWG with such low subscription numbers that dwindle constantly. All SWG has done since the NGE is consolidate servers. The content they introduce continually pisses off the community. I stop by their forums every now and then just to check on the game around the time of updates. More often than not the community manager at the time will have posted all the update info then the community has seen that a large portion of 'content' is being introduced into the TCG and they get pissed off.
People still playing SWG must be masochists because I cannot think of any reason to play that game. All the dev team is doing is just pissing off their remaining customers by trying to milk the Star Wars name for as much money as possible. I don't blame them, but at the same time I despise them. And I despise Lucas Arts for allowing it. I mean, their gaming department hasn't done too well since the Jedi Knight series, but come on. Force Unleashed was a good Star Wars game....Republic Commando was even better (imo of course). Jedi Outcast released in....'01? '02? So in that time Lucas Arts has liscenced or produced a four non-terrible Star Wars games...including both KOTOR games.
It's a shame really because there is SO much that can be done in video games with the Star Wars IP. There are so many different RPG-styles that could be explored, more Republic Commando titles that SHOULD be explored and a continuation of the Jedi Knight series that MUST be explored.
If LA really wants to start making big fat bank in gaming off of the Star Wars name again then here's what they need to do:
1. Before the end of this year shut down SWG. This will give ToR a more open field to step in to, ideally.
2. Start production and development of more quality titles in either the RC or Jedi Knight series.
3. Start a CG web mini-series to run in support of either the ToR, RC or JK projects. Possibly both ToR and one of the other projects.
-----
First three steps. I mean call me crazy, but I seem to have a better head for dealing with marketing in this industry than supposed professionals do. I guess it's a good thing that is what I intend to do.
I still think that if they implementedthe CURB, the game would not only reach parity with WoW, but surpass it.
WoW has very narrow appeal. Basically (with a few exceptions) the playerbase consists primarily of adolecent and young adult males who enjoy shooters, sports, and console games.
SWG had a broad appeal. It appealed to not only the above groups, but also, women, professionals, middle aged adults, and the elderly. People who never even played games regularly played Galaxies, because it was far more than a mere "game," it was a means of expression and recreation.
The problem wasn't the design, but bugs, and imbalances that simply weren't attended to.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Yup, they thought the problem was the "vision" of the game, and ignored all of the feedback about bugs and imbalances. I'm referring to head office btw. Some of the devs were doing an admirable job of trying to fix a mess that should have never released when it did.
Smed seems to miss the obvious and come to some bizarre conclusions at times. (e.g. what we need is a level system, 9 iconic professions, less depth, an xp bar at the bottom of the screen, fps combat, the addition of RMT etc.) No Smed, you just need to make your games work properly and stop giving your players (and devs) a hard time.
This.
The unwanted changes were not so much worry over player retention than it was Smedley coveting WoW's playerbase. In Smedley's mind, to get WoW numbers he had to turn SWG into WoW. Unfortunately, the cut & paste development didn't work out for $OE as evidenced by the closed and dying servers.