I don't like Funcom much but in this case it doesn't seem they did anything wrong.
They put out an offer that if you extend your time by buying another 3 months you get items. You chose to do that and got billed. Game time is non refundable so you can not get a refund.
It isn't a companies fault (even a bad one) when you don't read the agreement that you're choosing and then get mad at the mistake you yourself made.
Not sure why the "its your fault" crowd isn't getting it yet.
I am not saying Funcom is WRONG within the agreement in their refusal to refund the purchase I made by mistake, my mistake but a mistake none the less.
What I am saying is that they aren't doing anything RIGHT by me by chosing to keep my money under the agreement instead of refunding me thereby doing the RIGHT thing by my to... key word here... KEEP me happy.
$35 is a tiny ammount of money to lose a customer for life over. Thats it, thats the whole point. I do however think the offer should have been given to existing customers as thank you for seeing them through the first year. Also not liking how the offer just keeps getting better and better over time. Got another email for my other account today with the latest offer. So first it was reduced rates, then reduced rates with minor rewards, now reduced rates minor rewards and the stuff you get from subbing anyway advertised as special somehow "Free Level 50 Character!" err ya if you already have one
Not sure why the "its your fault" crowd isn't getting it yet. I am not saying Funcom is WRONG within the agreement in their refusal to refund the purchase I made by mistake, my mistake but a mistake none the less. What I am saying is that they aren't doing anything RIGHT by me by chosing to keep my money under the agreement instead of refunding me thereby doing the RIGHT thing by my to... key word here... KEEP me happy. $35 is a tiny ammount of money to lose a customer for life over. Thats it, thats the whole point. I do however think the offer should have been given to existing customers as thank you for seeing them through the first year. Also not liking how the offer just keeps getting better and better over time. Got another email for my other account today with the latest offer. So first it was reduced rates, then reduced rates with minor rewards, now reduced rates minor rewards and the stuff you get from subbing anyway advertised as special somehow "Free Level 50 Character!" err ya if you already have one
Be sure to fill us in as to how VISA handles this. I'm pretty sure they are going to refund you and slap Funcom down hard with another notice of credit conduct.
Funcom didn't do anything wrong, immoral, shady or whatever.
FEES are NOT refundable. Period. You clicked "I Agree" to that when you log in to the game. Not sure why you think you are entitled to a refund regardless. It's not like you can accidently click a button and sub for a year by mistake. You had to login to the master account, you had to click on subscriptions, you had to check which one you wanted, etc.
They are doing a promotion now for veteran rewards. If you pay for X months you'll get some ingame rewards. You now have these rewards, so quit complaining about it cost you $35. You KNEW that when you subscribed.
Funcom didn't do anything wrong, immoral, shady or whatever. FEES are NOT refundable. Period. You clicked "I Agree" to that when you log in to the game. Not sure why you think you are entitled to a refund regardless. It's not like you can accidently click a button and sub for a year by mistake. You had to login to the master account, you had to click on subscriptions, you had to check which one you wanted, etc. They are doing a promotion now for veteran rewards. If you pay for X months you'll get some ingame rewards. You now have these rewards, so quit complaining about it cost you $35. You KNEW that when you subscribed.
exactly!
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by SirPaco
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
(())
In this case I honestly feel that the wording in "extend" was clearly written and the onus is on the customer to understand what any deals are and encompass.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
In this case I honestly feel that the wording in "extend" was clearly written and the onus is on the customer to understand what any deals are and encompass.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
OP says hes not looking for more trouble or controversy or to waste his time taking Funcom to court. Rest assured I have no such ethical or legal misgivings about threatening suit against Funcom however I have no case.
What I do know is Visa did the right thing and kept another customer while Funcom did not and lost one.
You can judge for yourselves and let your arrogant Funcom/AOC fanboi-ism stuff a sock in it, should you choose to judge, Avery and company, but the fact are these.
As a company you shouldn't be asking for money for goods or services in this case, virtual time which you haven't delivered if you aren't also willing to refund that money immediately should the time not be consumed in any form. Legally you have no right to accept payment for services or goods not delivered and refused by the customer.
Clearly in this situation the time, which is a good or service, service in this case, could not have possibly been rendered because payment was accepted for months in advance of an existing subscription.
Visa isn't stupid, and for the life of me I can't understand why anybody here, save you fanbois would want to have them side with a company who wasn't willing to refund money for undelivered product. Suppose you were to buy a car from Ford or Honda, and you paid in advance, and wouldn't be getting your car for 2 months because you custom ordered it. Suppose you also changed your mind, and wanted to go with a different option and had not have the vehicle delivered. Would you all support Ford or Honda keeping all of your money without refunding you because you changed your mind? Such is not a good practice for any company and Visa knows this, other companies know this, economics delivers the best product at the best price, companies who would stipulate that they offer no refunds ever, once they have your money its theirs no matter what wouldn't carry much business and they would be shut out by Visa and Visa's competitors and be handling their transactions in cash, these kind of businesses are basically load sharks and drug dealers.
Congratulations Funcom this month you hit another new low. By the way guys, how are populatlons looking lately? Not so rosey is reality in the land of Hyboria.
In this case I honestly feel that the wording in "extend" was clearly written and the onus is on the customer to understand what any deals are and encompass.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
I just wanted to clear this part up right here...
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund.
If you buy season tickets to a football game and you have not received them you can cancel at anytime up until the point where you cause the seller to take a loss for your return. For example if you tried to return them after an event they would not be obligated to refund you legally because it after they delivered you access to the game. Which is both what the NFL and Funcom would be delivering in your case. However if you returned them with a reasonable enough time for them to attempt to re-sell the tickets you would be entitled to a refund. A virtual subscription is not a fixed resource like tickets are to a fixed capacity stadium. Funcom can sell as many subscriptions as their servers can provide via capacity whereas a stadium would have a fixed capacity. The difference between your analogy which is a good one but does not really apply, and the OPs situation, is that he was unknowingly purchasing an extension to an existing subscription for a service which would not be provided until a later time, so it would be impossible for him to consume the good or service. Meaning that Funcom has no legal right to refuse refund of the money. A better analogy would be if you accidently purchased tickets for the next season of football in addition to the existing season upon which we are already in. Would it be right for the NFL to deny you a refund for a mistaken purchase, for a good or service which you could not possibly consume until a very reasonable date for them to resell the tickets? Of course not. At least not legally or ethically.
If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund.
Suppose you pay for a 1 yr membership starting January 1 2010, and you paid for it today. If you decide to cancel tomorrow, that is a reasonable enough time for the gym to re-sell the membership slot and they can't legally not-refund you for payment of a good or service you have not yet received. This is simple business law, and it is the law. Suppose you cancel in February, regardless if you went to the gym or not, you would certainly not be able to legally get a refund for January, however for the months after February you may be able to depending on your contract. It gets tricky once you have received service in a time period and then it depends largely upon what contract you signed, and which state the company is based in, or which nation.
If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund.
Again depends if you received any of the service, or if you canceled a reasonable time before the company could recoup your lost sale without incurring losses as a result of your cancellation.
If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
The reason you are legally bound to pay in those circumstances is that you are securing the license to use a tangible, scarce resource, virtual resources are so intangible and digital resources are far from scare. When you rent the car, even if it sits in the driveway for the week, you are denying the ability of the company you are renting from, of renting that vehicle out to another party. Funcom can make no such claim on a virtual subscription in the future, i.e. they take not loss if you have not activated the subscription and you cannot have used the service in the future because it is not physically possible. The TV service is similar, however if a technician has to come to the house to install a dish or hook up a cable, they are providing a tangible good or service, Funcom is not. Certainly not for a good or service which they are billing for in the future which you cannot have access to without time travel.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
OP states that he was confused by the offer and the wording or whatever, the legal burden lays on both parties to mutually understand the terms of the agreement, since no loss would be incurred by Funcom by refunding the money since they had not delivered the service they stood to come out even just as the consumer did.
First off, subscription fees are non-refundable. They always have been. They (probably) always will be. Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable. So trying to get your fee back was pointless. Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended. I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Funcom didn't do anything wrong, immoral, shady or whatever. FEES are NOT refundable. Period. You clicked "I Agree" to that when you log in to the game. Not sure why you think you are entitled to a refund regardless. It's not like you can accidently click a button and sub for a year by mistake. You had to login to the master account, you had to click on subscriptions, you had to check which one you wanted, etc. They are doing a promotion now for veteran rewards. If you pay for X months you'll get some ingame rewards. You now have these rewards, so quit complaining about it cost you $35. You KNEW that when you subscribed.
They tried to collect a fee for a good or service they didn't deliver and could not possibly deliver because the customer was already in an existing subscription billing cycle. You can't legally refuse to refund money for goods or services you have not delivered if you stand to lose no value which you would not have held if you had not made the sale in the first place.
It is too bad they could not find an amicable resolution for both their customer and their company. Nothing like good and honest impartial and real exprience, to spread via word of month rather than this type of thing which we have come to expect from Funcom right?
In this case I honestly feel that the wording in "extend" was clearly written and the onus is on the customer to understand what any deals are and encompass.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
Hello again! Sorry I took so long to reply to your message, I was actually banned for 3 days (no idea why, but meh... )
Anyway, to answer your post, I guess maybe you did read it, but are not computing what was written, so I will simply write again what was written numerous times in other words so that you will perhaps understand it. With this objective in mind, I will take your examples :
- If you buy a season ticket to a football game and the season starts in 3 months YOU CAN get refunded within the cooling off period, especially if you buy the season ticket on the phone or through the internet.
- If you pay for 1 year gym membership that starts in 3 months YOU CAN get refunded within the coolind off period especially if you buy it on the phone or through the internet.
- If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them YOU CAN get refunded during the cooling off period, again, this is even more the case if you do the transaction over the phone or through the internet.
- If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV, I have no idea about this one as it is unclear to me what your saying...
- Now lastly, for my favourite one BECAUSE I HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THIS MYSELF, the hire a car situation ; if you hire a car and decide to change your mind before the set date, YOU CAN get your money back (I have done this myself).
Now with the hire a car example, you're actually saying "if you hire it but don't drive it", then in that case, you can not get your money back because it's not dependent on whether you drive it or not. If the period has actually started, it is more difficult, but most companies "who have good business practice" will give you a partial refund.
Please allow me to put forward two very important points that need to be clear :
1. The law that was put into place in 2000 and that is valid in all EU was particularly aimed at transactions that take place over the phone or across the internet. Please go ahead and read it if you find it interesting. There is a seperate law that covers normal transactions.
2. And let me say this again in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom do not have a legal imperative to pay that money back (which they do btw), it is bad business practice, unethical, and illustrative of a desperate situation not to do so.
Also, with respect to your last paragraph, just because you put it in writing doesn't always cover you, that would be to easy. The laws that are there to protect teh consumer disregard anything that was writen in the contract or to the customer.
And lastly, just becaues LOTRO did the same does not mean they had a legal right to do so.
edit --> to the OP I just thought of something. As part of my civil inssurance, one of the services that is provided is legal protection. This service allows me to go to court and claim on anything free of charge while only paying if the claim is successful. Also, they take care of everything, including lawyers etc, you might have that as well, most people don't know about it
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
I thought i would have a quick nose see what i could find out as this thread seems to be bouncing from one side to the other each with strong arguments
In the case of services, the cooling-off period normally ends seven working days after the day the order was made - or after written confirmation is received.
Now i didnt see the date in which you extended the subscription and the same as when you notified them of not wanting the services.
The only thing I did try looking into and could not find anything out is Distance selling regulations regarding renewal of services. You in a way renewed your service prior to it ending and me personally would see that as not being covered by the distance selling regulations due to you already have a running service with funcom.
The other thing is that its worded as an extension now that might mean that your cooling off period could be when you took your first 3 month sub which has already passed the 7 days of purchase.
Im not saying this is fact as with all legal things it can vary depending on the situation
also that has some good reading on the general situation but does not go into great depth.
Im not saying what funcom have done is right and some would say it would be best practice to refund your money however its very grey on where they stand on it.
I thought i would have a quick nose see what i could find out as this thread seems to be bouncing from one side to the other each with strong arguments http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792577 In the case of services, the cooling-off period normally ends seven working days after the day the order was made - or after written confirmation is received. Now i didnt see the date in which you extended the subscription and the same as when you notified them of not wanting the services. The only thing I did try looking into and could not find anything out is Distance selling regulations regarding renewal of services. You in a way renewed your service prior to it ending and me personally would see that as not being covered by the distance selling regulations due to you already have a running service with funcom. The other thing is that its worded as an extension now that might mean that your cooling off period could be when you took your first 3 month sub which has already passed the 7 days of purchase. Im not saying this is fact as with all legal things it can vary depending on the situation http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf also that has some good reading on the general situation but does not go into great depth. Im not saying what funcom have done is right and some would say it would be best practice to refund your money however its very grey on where they stand on it.
It really is an interesting case.
Please allow me one comment on what you wrote (I believe your other points have been covered already) :
It would apply if the purchase is done over the internet even it is a subscription for a game that was bought over the counter because that is precisely why the "broken seal" argument does not apply --> the focus of the claim is on the subscription part of the contract, so even if you cant get a refund for a software that has been opened (broken seal), you can for a subscription.
Again, this is personal opinion, I am in no way a legal expert
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
All good and fine but at the end of the day... VISA put through the reversal, money is back in my account as of yesterday and that number is cancelled so Funcom can't bill me regardless of how they feel about it.
All good and fine but at the end of the day... VISA put through the reversal, money is back in my account as of yesterday and that number is cancelled so Funcom can't bill me regardless of how they feel about it.
I didnt want to give them a card, so I changed the billing option to cash and got my 14 days that way. After all the billing junk that used to happen I will not trust them not to bill me later.
I have had a similar situation in the past. I clicked on a resub by mistake and promptly called the MMO company(it wasnt FC) and was told I wouldnt be able to have a refund. However, since the resub hadnt went into effect yet, and since I hadnt benefitted from any goods or services from the future transaction, Visa fully refunded my money. I dont know about what is right by law or what is wrong by law, only that when I have a problem with credit charges, Visa always comes through for me.
THAT, my friends, is good customer service.
Funcom may want to pay attention to Visa's customer relations, because if they did, they would still have the OP as a happy customer instead of a lost customer who will not recommend the game to people who asks about it.
maybe if Visa does that (and I am not being sarcastic here) it is because it is legal for them to do so.
And if it is legal for them to do so, it emplies that the transaction can legally be cancelled, and if that is the case, the company is in the wrong for refusing to.
Honestly, I am not sure at all about these two sentences ad I can myself see one or to potential issues, but it kind of makes sense
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
First off, subscription fees are non-refundable. They always have been. They (probably) always will be. Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable. So trying to get your fee back was pointless. Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended. I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
First off, subscription fees are non-refundable. They always have been. They (probably) always will be. Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable. So trying to get your fee back was pointless. Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended. I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith.
You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration.
If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does.
First off, subscription fees are non-refundable. They always have been. They (probably) always will be. Says clearly in the TOS you clicked "I Agree" to login that the fees are not refundable. So trying to get your fee back was pointless. Second, when I took advantage of the new subscription plan it didn't bill me til my current cycle ended. I did the the helm right away, though the extra vet tokens didn't show up til my cycle began again.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith. You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration. If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does. Case closed. Don't like my response fuck off.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
Pretty much Lordbonezy's credibility went out the window once he admitted he's never played AoC, hates Funcom and just generally wants them to fail.
This would be like me posting on the EQ1 forums about how much Everquest sucks, SOE sucks, or whatever, even though I haven't played it in over 5 years. Don't think any EQ players would take me seriously either.
Anyhoo, the OP isn't entitled to a refund. Very doubtful Visa would refund the money either. When you dispute a charge, they do an investigation which includes contacting the party that charged you in the first place. When Funcom tells Visa that the subscription fee was charged and is non-refundable, provides the documentation the OP clicked "I Agree" to to prove that, Visa will deny the claim.
Some people just hate Funcom. Just like some hate SOE or Blizzard. Doesn't matter what that company does or doesn't do, they will refuse to play their games and post everywhere their irrational corporate hate speech where ever they can.
Pretty much Lordbonezy's credibility went out the window once he admitted he's never played AoC, hates Funcom and just generally wants them to fail. This would be like me posting on the EQ1 forums about how much Everquest sucks, SOE sucks, or whatever, even though I haven't played it in over 5 years. Don't think any EQ players would take me seriously either. Anyhoo, the OP isn't entitled to a refund. Very doubtful Visa would refund the money either. When you dispute a charge, they do an investigation which includes contacting the party that charged you in the first place. When Funcom tells Visa that the subscription fee was charged and is non-refundable, provides the documentation the OP clicked "I Agree" to to prove that, Visa will deny the claim. Some people just hate Funcom. Just like some hate SOE or Blizzard. Doesn't matter what that company does or doesn't do, they will refuse to play their games and post everywhere their irrational corporate hate speech where ever they can.
I never said I didn't play AOC. I played from Launch until October 2008. I left, but played with a friends acct here and there to see sieges since the game died on my server before we got to sieges. In 2009 I came back during the initial free trials and played from a week before them until a week or two after. So yeah I played and I never said I didn't. What I did not play is WOW, said that on more than one occassion. I don't play AOC currently because of the enumerated reasons I've detailed. So you can shut the hell up about my credibility. I know this game well and I know this company too well, apparently you don't so stay silent grasshopper.
OP already got his refund. We already explained why. Its too complex for you just let it go, you need to have at least an 8th grade understand of the law clearly you don't.
It absolutely does matter what a company does, and Funcom is no exception and they are not an exception that prooves a rule. If you enjoy the game great. Its a better game than it was. The company is a dying company which has seen the best employees jump ship in favor of better opporunities, which is why the pace of improvement is so slow and incompetent and why they are forcing layoffs, being not profitable means you cant pay people to stay. Had Funcom delivered a polished and finished and functional product none of us would be talking about any of this. They didn't, its not my fault and it is a fact.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens). Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith. You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration. If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does. Case closed. Don't like my response fuck off.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
All in red still stands. If you have an issue with Funcom fine but the rest of us don't care. Move on with your life. No one cares about your opinion, that’s why you get some much hate all the time. Everyone is tired of your trolling. Get over yourself already and grow up.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
All in red still stands. If you have an issue with Funcom fine but the rest of us don't care. Move on with your life. No one cares about your opinion, that’s why you get some much hate all the time. Everyone is tired of your trolling. Get over yourself already and grow up.
Comments
I don't like Funcom much but in this case it doesn't seem they did anything wrong.
They put out an offer that if you extend your time by buying another 3 months you get items. You chose to do that and got billed. Game time is non refundable so you can not get a refund.
It isn't a companies fault (even a bad one) when you don't read the agreement that you're choosing and then get mad at the mistake you yourself made.
Not sure why the "its your fault" crowd isn't getting it yet.
I am not saying Funcom is WRONG within the agreement in their refusal to refund the purchase I made by mistake, my mistake but a mistake none the less.
What I am saying is that they aren't doing anything RIGHT by me by chosing to keep my money under the agreement instead of refunding me thereby doing the RIGHT thing by my to... key word here... KEEP me happy.
$35 is a tiny ammount of money to lose a customer for life over. Thats it, thats the whole point. I do however think the offer should have been given to existing customers as thank you for seeing them through the first year. Also not liking how the offer just keeps getting better and better over time. Got another email for my other account today with the latest offer. So first it was reduced rates, then reduced rates with minor rewards, now reduced rates minor rewards and the stuff you get from subbing anyway advertised as special somehow "Free Level 50 Character!" err ya if you already have one
Be sure to fill us in as to how VISA handles this. I'm pretty sure they are going to refund you and slap Funcom down hard with another notice of credit conduct.
Funcom didn't do anything wrong, immoral, shady or whatever.
FEES are NOT refundable. Period. You clicked "I Agree" to that when you log in to the game. Not sure why you think you are entitled to a refund regardless. It's not like you can accidently click a button and sub for a year by mistake. You had to login to the master account, you had to click on subscriptions, you had to check which one you wanted, etc.
They are doing a promotion now for veteran rewards. If you pay for X months you'll get some ingame rewards. You now have these rewards, so quit complaining about it cost you $35. You KNEW that when you subscribed.
exactly!
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
OP says hes not looking for more trouble or controversy or to waste his time taking Funcom to court. Rest assured I have no such ethical or legal misgivings about threatening suit against Funcom however I have no case.
What I do know is Visa did the right thing and kept another customer while Funcom did not and lost one.
You can judge for yourselves and let your arrogant Funcom/AOC fanboi-ism stuff a sock in it, should you choose to judge, Avery and company, but the fact are these.
As a company you shouldn't be asking for money for goods or services in this case, virtual time which you haven't delivered if you aren't also willing to refund that money immediately should the time not be consumed in any form. Legally you have no right to accept payment for services or goods not delivered and refused by the customer.
Clearly in this situation the time, which is a good or service, service in this case, could not have possibly been rendered because payment was accepted for months in advance of an existing subscription.
Visa isn't stupid, and for the life of me I can't understand why anybody here, save you fanbois would want to have them side with a company who wasn't willing to refund money for undelivered product. Suppose you were to buy a car from Ford or Honda, and you paid in advance, and wouldn't be getting your car for 2 months because you custom ordered it. Suppose you also changed your mind, and wanted to go with a different option and had not have the vehicle delivered. Would you all support Ford or Honda keeping all of your money without refunding you because you changed your mind? Such is not a good practice for any company and Visa knows this, other companies know this, economics delivers the best product at the best price, companies who would stipulate that they offer no refunds ever, once they have your money its theirs no matter what wouldn't carry much business and they would be shut out by Visa and Visa's competitors and be handling their transactions in cash, these kind of businesses are basically load sharks and drug dealers.
Congratulations Funcom this month you hit another new low. By the way guys, how are populatlons looking lately? Not so rosey is reality in the land of Hyboria.
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
Hope this clears it up some.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
They tried to collect a fee for a good or service they didn't deliver and could not possibly deliver because the customer was already in an existing subscription billing cycle. You can't legally refuse to refund money for goods or services you have not delivered if you stand to lose no value which you would not have held if you had not made the sale in the first place.
It is too bad they could not find an amicable resolution for both their customer and their company. Nothing like good and honest impartial and real exprience, to spread via word of month rather than this type of thing which we have come to expect from Funcom right?
There were two main points from the discussion that took place in this thread (which you probably did not read because it is long but np I will conclude it for you) are
- that since the customer was purchasing an extension to a subscription which has yet to take effect since he still has 1 month game time before that subscribtion starts, there is a VERY strong case for him to get his money back. (in many cases the cooling off period does not require a valid reason for canceling, there is NO ONUS ON THE CUSTOMER AT ALL)
- that in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom were not legally obliged to refund the money, common sense, good business practice and reasonable customer oriented policy (which is crucial in a MMORPG since customers NEED to come back) should have pushed those fools to refund the money.
No need to assume, I did read the whole thing which is why I replied. Sorry there is no case. If you buy a season ticket to a football game but never go you do not get a refund. If you pay for 1 yr gym membership there is no refund. If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them there is no refund. If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV there is no refund. If you hire a car for 1 week and it is a set price but you do not drive it anywhere there is no refund.
FC are well within their right to not refund. The writing was clear, the deal clear, it is a payment now and not at end of current cycle subscripton, We paid for a life time sub for father in law for LOTRO before the offer ended and it was a pay upfront offer. He still had 4 months left that he already paid for - didnt get that back.
Hello again! Sorry I took so long to reply to your message, I was actually banned for 3 days (no idea why, but meh... )
Anyway, to answer your post, I guess maybe you did read it, but are not computing what was written, so I will simply write again what was written numerous times in other words so that you will perhaps understand it. With this objective in mind, I will take your examples :
- If you buy a season ticket to a football game and the season starts in 3 months YOU CAN get refunded within the cooling off period, especially if you buy the season ticket on the phone or through the internet.
- If you pay for 1 year gym membership that starts in 3 months YOU CAN get refunded within the coolind off period especially if you buy it on the phone or through the internet.
- If you pay for 12 driving lessons in a package upfront and don't take them YOU CAN get refunded during the cooling off period, again, this is even more the case if you do the transaction over the phone or through the internet.
- If you subscribe on contract to TV and take TV package that is PPV, I have no idea about this one as it is unclear to me what your saying...
- Now lastly, for my favourite one BECAUSE I HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THIS MYSELF, the hire a car situation ; if you hire a car and decide to change your mind before the set date, YOU CAN get your money back (I have done this myself).
Now with the hire a car example, you're actually saying "if you hire it but don't drive it", then in that case, you can not get your money back because it's not dependent on whether you drive it or not. If the period has actually started, it is more difficult, but most companies "who have good business practice" will give you a partial refund.
Please allow me to put forward two very important points that need to be clear :
1. The law that was put into place in 2000 and that is valid in all EU was particularly aimed at transactions that take place over the phone or across the internet. Please go ahead and read it if you find it interesting. There is a seperate law that covers normal transactions.
2. And let me say this again in the worst case scenario, even if Funcom do not have a legal imperative to pay that money back (which they do btw), it is bad business practice, unethical, and illustrative of a desperate situation not to do so.
Also, with respect to your last paragraph, just because you put it in writing doesn't always cover you, that would be to easy. The laws that are there to protect teh consumer disregard anything that was writen in the contract or to the customer.
And lastly, just becaues LOTRO did the same does not mean they had a legal right to do so.
edit --> to the OP I just thought of something. As part of my civil inssurance, one of the services that is provided is legal protection. This service allows me to go to court and claim on anything free of charge while only paying if the claim is successful. Also, they take care of everything, including lawyers etc, you might have that as well, most people don't know about it
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
I thought i would have a quick nose see what i could find out as this thread seems to be bouncing from one side to the other each with strong arguments
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792577
In the case of services, the cooling-off period normally ends seven working days after the day the order was made - or after written confirmation is received.
Now i didnt see the date in which you extended the subscription and the same as when you notified them of not wanting the services.
The only thing I did try looking into and could not find anything out is Distance selling regulations regarding renewal of services. You in a way renewed your service prior to it ending and me personally would see that as not being covered by the distance selling regulations due to you already have a running service with funcom.
The other thing is that its worded as an extension now that might mean that your cooling off period could be when you took your first 3 month sub which has already passed the 7 days of purchase.
Im not saying this is fact as with all legal things it can vary depending on the situation
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
also that has some good reading on the general situation but does not go into great depth.
Im not saying what funcom have done is right and some would say it would be best practice to refund your money however its very grey on where they stand on it.
It really is an interesting case.
Please allow me one comment on what you wrote (I believe your other points have been covered already) :
It would apply if the purchase is done over the internet even it is a subscription for a game that was bought over the counter because that is precisely why the "broken seal" argument does not apply --> the focus of the claim is on the subscription part of the contract, so even if you cant get a refund for a software that has been opened (broken seal), you can for a subscription.
Again, this is personal opinion, I am in no way a legal expert
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
All good and fine but at the end of the day... VISA put through the reversal, money is back in my account as of yesterday and that number is cancelled so Funcom can't bill me regardless of how they feel about it.
I didnt want to give them a card, so I changed the billing option to cash and got my 14 days that way. After all the billing junk that used to happen I will not trust them not to bill me later.
I have had a similar situation in the past. I clicked on a resub by mistake and promptly called the MMO company(it wasnt FC) and was told I wouldnt be able to have a refund. However, since the resub hadnt went into effect yet, and since I hadnt benefitted from any goods or services from the future transaction, Visa fully refunded my money.
I dont know about what is right by law or what is wrong by law, only that when I have a problem with credit charges, Visa always comes through for me.
THAT, my friends, is good customer service.
Funcom may want to pay attention to Visa's customer relations, because if they did, they would still have the OP as a happy customer instead of a lost customer who will not recommend the game to people who asks about it.
maybe if Visa does that (and I am not being sarcastic here) it is because it is legal for them to do so.
And if it is legal for them to do so, it emplies that the transaction can legally be cancelled, and if that is the case, the company is in the wrong for refusing to.
Honestly, I am not sure at all about these two sentences ad I can myself see one or to potential issues, but it kind of makes sense
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith.
You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration.
If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does.
[MOD EDIT]
Wrong, If and only if you are into the subscription. In this case the new sub doesn't begin until 2010. Non-refundable applies to already inside subscription period billings. Funcom is of course trying to hold onto every $ they can and they have no shame or good reputation to hang onto. Thankfully they don't do more in the world than make poorly implemented games that have good graphics, i.e. like handel real money transactions like Visa. Visa did the right thing for the consumer in this instance which is exactly what ethically an impartial party would have decided, and what legally a court case would have entitled the consumer too as well.
Sorry LordBonezy, but YOU are wrong.
The OP was complaining that he was charged, since he was charged he IS in the new subscription cycle. Therefore, He is Not Entitled To A Refund. Period. He already received the product, vet rewards in this case, so cannot get a refund. No If's And's or But's about it. You can try to spin this however you want, that doesn't change the simple fact that he didn't "accidently" subscribe (I already posted that's not possible), he already is in his new cycle and he already received his product (game time and vet tokens).
Your irrational Funcom Hate does nothing to validate or support your erroneous arguments.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith.
You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration.
If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does.
Case closed. Don't like my response fuck off.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
Pretty much Lordbonezy's credibility went out the window once he admitted he's never played AoC, hates Funcom and just generally wants them to fail.
This would be like me posting on the EQ1 forums about how much Everquest sucks, SOE sucks, or whatever, even though I haven't played it in over 5 years. Don't think any EQ players would take me seriously either.
Anyhoo, the OP isn't entitled to a refund. Very doubtful Visa would refund the money either. When you dispute a charge, they do an investigation which includes contacting the party that charged you in the first place. When Funcom tells Visa that the subscription fee was charged and is non-refundable, provides the documentation the OP clicked "I Agree" to to prove that, Visa will deny the claim.
Some people just hate Funcom. Just like some hate SOE or Blizzard. Doesn't matter what that company does or doesn't do, they will refuse to play their games and post everywhere their irrational corporate hate speech where ever they can.
I never said I didn't play AOC. I played from Launch until October 2008. I left, but played with a friends acct here and there to see sieges since the game died on my server before we got to sieges. In 2009 I came back during the initial free trials and played from a week before them until a week or two after. So yeah I played and I never said I didn't. What I did not play is WOW, said that on more than one occassion. I don't play AOC currently because of the enumerated reasons I've detailed. So you can shut the hell up about my credibility. I know this game well and I know this company too well, apparently you don't so stay silent grasshopper.
OP already got his refund. We already explained why. Its too complex for you just let it go, you need to have at least an 8th grade understand of the law clearly you don't.
It absolutely does matter what a company does, and Funcom is no exception and they are not an exception that prooves a rule. If you enjoy the game great. Its a better game than it was. The company is a dying company which has seen the best employees jump ship in favor of better opporunities, which is why the pace of improvement is so slow and incompetent and why they are forcing layoffs, being not profitable means you cant pay people to stay. Had Funcom delivered a polished and finished and functional product none of us would be talking about any of this. They didn't, its not my fault and it is a fact.
Get over it.
Well perhaps I am wrong. However that doesn't change the fact that Visa saw it our way. Probably very likely because we were right and not wrong. Its not about being right or wrong or hating funcom though I do, and it isn't irrational whatsoever. I dont have AOC, but I do hate Funcom and am happy to see them deprived of money they would take freely and not refund without delivering a good or service.
I'm not spinning shit. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or deliberate attempt to extend his subscription and then retract that extension, a reasonable amount of time before it began. If you don't consume a good or service you have the right to a refund if it has not been delivered forthwith.
You are being irrational because you can't live with not liking Funcom oh no oh dear how will I ever go on living? Grow up Visa kept a customer by doing the right thing, Funcom lost a customer by doing the wrong thing. If you think they have it wrong thats your opinion and you are entitled just like me. Its also bizniz law that you can't take money from consumers even by mistake if you don't provide something for it, its called consideration.
If there is no consideration there is no contract. If I put money on the table and promise to pay for something but have not received it because it is scheduled to be delivered at a future date, I am entitled to the refund of my consideration. The only reason I would not be is if because of my promise to purchase and subsequent cancelling I some how prevented Funcom from making money with someone else with that same good or service, in which they lose the value of their consideration, at which point they are entitled to compensation for the loss of value of their part of the "consideration". Since there was no resulting loss in value to Funcom's consideration, and there was no consumption of the product or service during that subscription period for the customer, legally there was no contract to take money for services or goods, and Funcom was legally obligated to refund the money. Visa knows this because they process millions of transactions daily, Funcom hasn't processed more than few tens of thousands and they clearly have no interest in maintaining a reputation or valuing customers the same way Visa does.
Case closed. Don't like my response fuck off.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
All in red still stands. If you have an issue with Funcom fine but the rest of us don't care. Move on with your life. No one cares about your opinion, that’s why you get some much hate all the time. Everyone is tired of your trolling. Get over yourself already and grow up.
If you don't have AOC then STOP POSTING ON THE AOC FORUMS!
All in red still stands. If you have an issue with Funcom fine but the rest of us don't care. Move on with your life. No one cares about your opinion, that’s why you get some much hate all the time. Everyone is tired of your trolling. Get over yourself already and grow up.
Signed!
Exactly my thoughts
He wants to make a ball out of shit here...
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.