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Interesting business model
olepi
Member EpicPosts: 3,080
First off, I know nothing about MO or Darkfall. When reading the forums here, it seems like an interesting situation.
As a software developer, it sounds to me like MO is currently being developed. When I hear "place holder", we would say it is "stubbed out". That means the project is under active development, with major systems still being worked on. The interesting part is that they are already charging a premium up-front price for access to what is essentially a work in progress.
It is actually closer to an investment, where you pay up-front for something unfinished that may become a product. If you believe in the developers, and the vision, and the plan, then it makes sense to put up premium money early.
In a normal software environment, alpha test begins once all the systems are plugged together and you actually think you have a product. You certainly test each feature independently, but alpha test of the "game" begins once it is all there. MO sounds like it has not reached that point yet.
Beta test usually begins after alpha testing on a functioning program, meaning the game already has all the features and the features have all been tested at least once. At this point, selected friendly customers are invited to help test what is supposed to be the product.
It is an interesting business model to invite customers to participate in development (pre-alpha) and ask for a premium price for early access. This money then helps continue development. It just might work in the MMO field though.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
Comments
Wrong title. Business model is not about testing, beta or alpha or what ever. You can certainly question SV's approach to doing software test, fo its way of partially financing the development, to keep its customers engaged in the process. Many people like turnkey project: the developer doing all the development and release the product to the customers: here it is, buy it or leave it.
I am sure SV's approach has both advantages and disadvantages for SV and for the players as well,. For SV, the disadvantages is the massive basing by people who are pre-inclined to bash, and by people who fail to understand the design of MO. For the players, the disadvantages is not they have to invest "HUGE" amount of money as some people said, but ... I am sorry that I cannot figure out one if they do not think 100$ is a huge amount. For a sum that people in this part of world usually spend in a weekend pub round, they can play for many months. The game is not finished, it is bugged, it has not been stable. It is frustrating. If you want play a game you alway get what you will, you should definitely not get into beta. Not at release either. Like Microsoft program purchaser, you always begin to use a new version when service pack 1 is released. Beta is another game, a game making game. That is what you get when you pre-order.
The advantage for both SV and players is the game can be released much earlier than it was possible.
And then on top of premium prices, fail to deliver the product on time, and refuse people asking for refunds because it's months late. How long do they think they can sit on people's money without setting themselves up for a class action suit, or losing thier merchant status with Visa/Mastercard?
but you also got to think alot of people are frugal with thier cash i for one dont just go throwing money around at games trying to hit a winner $100 is an amazing amount to me most i pay for games is $20 -$50 at the most and they have to be pretty interesting or offering alot to the table or somethin
You don't have to pre-order, just wait after you know more. Card companies do have a age limit for have a payment card that you can use online. So if you can pay online, you are supposed to have good judgement. I know people do make inpuls buys but what blame SV? Or you can do as the smart guy MiteFiend did, buy the game, play three month, get refund, if tyou are lucky, you can even play after you got your money back. Try to have this tactic as your "business model" and use it everywhere, you may get rich.
i thought you were the guy who got a refund and still had beta access until this morning? why do you keep saying they don't refund money to people when you in fact have received a refund?
You don't have to pre-order, just wait after you know more. Card companies do have a age limit for have a payment card that you can use online. So if you can pay online, you are supposed to have good judgement. I know people do make inpuls buys but what blame SV? Or you can do as the smart guy MiteFiend did, buy the game, play three month, get refund, if tyou are lucky, you can even play after you got your money back. Try to have this tactic as your "business model" and use it everywhere, you may get rich.
but see your also talkin sure there is a age limit but when its mommy or daddy's cc noone asks questions and ive never known a company to give back refunds other then subs to the game once the money is in thier hands your kinda on your own
You got it and are 100% correct sir,about time i can agree with someone on this site lmao.
The term "Beta" is actually mis used big time over the last few yeas,it has become a marketing GIMMICK to create hype and sales,nothing more.It creates a three ring circus of sites offering beta keys for registering ect ect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This is always the trade-off: do you try to go the indie route? or do you get financing by a large company, that then wants to tell you what to do?
Many companies, mine included, have tried to set up "independent" operations, incubators, where innovative ideas can be developed without the ever-present immediate profit concern. This can be partially successful.
If you trust the developers, if you like the vision and the plan, then paying very early in the cycle as a way of funding is interesting. If I were MO, I would give every early subscriber a special coupon for something really good in the game, if and when the game really takes off, like the return on an investment.
As an aside, I would not recommend signing up if you are planning to play for free and then undo your purchase. That would be very detrimental to this model. Also bad juju. Don't pay unless you are going to stay.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
I can assure you of one thing, if someone has purchased the game without knowing what they'll be testing, it means that they haven't read any of the developer posts publicly available, and haven't asked any question at public forums. Whoever asked the current status of the game and what to expect on "beta" has got correct answers. You can verify this yourself by checking the public part of the forum by yourself.
I don't feel sympathy to people complaining about paying for an unfinished game (the game is not released). In software development terms, beta is a featurewise finished product, for a MMORPG kind of project it is more muddy. All of the systems may be developed in isolated places and may be working fine but may fail to work together on the live server, which makes the modules beta, but the game alpha. But these facts were very obvious and publicly available during the purchase phase.
Finally, yes, they are still adding something new with each patch, which makes the test alpha in technical terms
i thought you were the guy who got a refund and still had beta access until this morning? why do you keep saying they don't refund money to people when you in fact have received a refund?
I did get a refund, but only because I purchased the boxed version and didn't recieve it after a extended period of time. Those who bought digital downloads have generally been unsuccessful with getting thier refunds.
SV has thier own QA guys.
There are alpha videos with things we haven't seen in the beta.
You're partially right.
However, not all software firms run on the same model.
Alpha
Internal testing
Beta
External testing
has nothing to do with how far along they are in development.
They can alpha test each module as it's completed, then release that module to the public testers to beta.
They don't need to have everything complete.
The other beta I'm in doesn't offer every portion of the game either and they impliment things as development progresses.
That studio has a LOT of funding and a LOT of developers.
SV has little funding, and something like 18 devs.
Edit;
also, your words: What is SUPPOSED TO BE. That's not the same thing as what is.
Supposed to be doesn't mean the actual product, but what, in the end, will be the actual product.
Yes, I understand that the MMO model might be different than traditional software development. That is the point of my thread.
The software I work on costs about $1 million a copy, and we follow the traditional model: get it working internally as alpha, and then let a few friendly customers help finish the final testing. Of course we could never charge the customers for this.
It is not the same to test the parts: think of a car.
<potential buyer> "How does this car run?"
<developer> "well, the engine runs great, the transmission is smooth, and the brakes work well. We've never actually tested them together in a car yet, that is your job after you buy it."
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
olepi, I tried to make this point more salient to the users in the forums a long time ago, that beta has a standard definition, as does an alpha, and what SV is releasing is barely an alpha. Some of the features like thieving, are still being coded -- and will be dumped into the larger codebase without any regression testing. LOL
It's kind of funny, but also kind of sad. There goes another FFA PvP MMO down the tubes.
olepi, I tried to make this point more salient to the users in the forums a long time ago, that beta has a standard definition, as does an alpha, and what SV is releasing is barely an alpha. Some of the features like thieving, are still being coded -- and will be dumped into the larger codebase without any regression testing. LOL
It's kind of funny, but also kind of sad. There goes another FFA PvP MMO down the tubes.
You're "standard definition" is BS.
Beta
Tested by the public
Alpha
Tested internally by the devs, overseen by the devs.
The guys doing QA are alpha testing.
We do the beta testing.
Not every company beta tests thier software. My bestfriends a QA specialist. He works for a realestate software firm; it's his job to ensure it works when the client gets it, because no one else will ever test the product.
You missed my point.
SV isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.
I've been in other betas, I'm currently in a couple, they're all progressing in the same fashion.
Not everything is "complete" when a beta begins.
This plan will fail if someone will release complete, similar game, not charging customers in advance.
You have option to pay for game X, and start playing right away, or give Star Vault your money and wait (or play incomplete game)...
Star Vault still found customers for their preorder offer - it only means that competition (DF, UO, Eve) wasn't strong enough.
You missed my point.
SV isn't doing anything out of the ordinary.
I've been in other betas, I'm currently in a couple, they're all progressing in the same fashion.
Not everything is "complete" when a beta begins.
How many beta's have you done of non-game, expensive, professional software?
This MMO model that SV is doing is not like any of those that I have been in.
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
How did someone so rational and able to think clearly find their way to these forums?
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with the MO business model, which was always pretty much clearly defined by the dev's from the beginning.
I guess they were supposed to release something in Sept (anyone who really believed that probably owns several bridges right now)
And all too often people do seem to pay their money for betas and expect to be able to "return" the game, a practice I suspect the major credit card companies will clamp down on eventually by not permitting.
People who don't agree with SV's approach to releasing this game should not buy it now. (I'm holding off myself) yet we keep getting threads by "disappointed" purchasers.
What they fail to realize is that more software projects fail than succeed, and MO may well fail. Doesn't make it a scam, just means they couldn't pull it off.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"What they fail to realize is that more software projects fail than succeed, and MO may well fail. Doesn't make it a scam, just means they couldn't pull it off."
See thats where you're wrong. MO is a scam because they failed to pull it off and proceeded to lie about the state of their game by selling pre-orders which guarenteed you beta access...only the game isn't in beta and is no where near ready for the release they claimed unless of course their intention was to release the worst game ever made in the history of MMO's.
Not only that but the boxes are already two months late AND THEY ARE STILL REFUSING TO GIVE PEOPLE REFUNDS. Thats the part that makes MO a scam. I mean how fucking obvious does it need to be for you people? Does Star Vault themself have to literally tell you to your face that they are scamming you for you to believe it? I meanJesus christ...seriously unbelievable
Most of the software projects fail because the developer let the end user enter the test phase too later. MO has a better chance to succeed because the early engagement of the users.
Star Vault had clearly communicated the status of the game, clearly stated their beta strategy. You are only too blind to read. Keep your beta definition to your self. Do you consider yourself as somewhat beta because you are still learning and developing?
So you are contending that SV is not really going to put together a game? This is all just a way to get money, without really developing a game?
Or is it a case that, as always, they grossly underestimated the effort required, are running late, but are totally committed to releasing the best product they can?
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2025: 48 years on the Net.
"So you are contending that SV is not really going to put together a game? This is all just a way to get money, without really developing a game?
Or is it a case that, as always, they grossly underestimated the effort required, are running late, but are totally committed to releasing the best product they can?"
see I'm actually not sure entirely...the thing is that the game is so unbelievably bad that I'm not even sure if they are being serious
but considering the fact that they are refusing refunds despite being very late with the the shipment of their boxes(suppose to have been sent out september) and coupled in with the fact that the game is years from an actual release that wouldn't fail then I seriously have to question whether or not this is a scam
they might actually be serious and really be committed to releasing a quality game but virtually nothing they've done so far has proven this since in it's current state, its the worst MMO I've ever seen/played EVER
You should know about human nature. Do most people want to play a perfect, feature complete game? If you buy a Rolex watch, you want to it being perfect with every part polished, and that they assure you that the watch will be just as that in a hundred years. But if you buy a game, do you want to hear the same thing? Maybe at the beginning. But is it you really want? No! You want to have fun and excitement. After a while you do not feel fun and excitement any more. So you want new features and expansions and you want it being improved. Oh wait, did you say that you wanted it feature complete? What in hell can we do that in this perfect feature complete game? So you quit the game and go to another perfect feature complete game after six months.
So probably for many players, MO is the game to have fun, excitement and expectations. I hope Star Vault will tell us players the roadmap for MO after release while keeping something hidden for suprising us.