I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is.
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is.
WoW has actually hit upon a pretty good formulate to alleviate this problem. Make "hard core" modes that are optional but give better rewards. WoW has that for raids, but it looks like FFXIV could possibly have that for questing with the Guildleve system (let's hope) -- (and one would hope if it is like that for quests intended for leveling then it will also be like that for dungeons and such).
Originally posted by ic0n67 >.> hang on ... you know this and accept this and you still call LORTO a clone of WOW? Long story short on Wednesday night I typed a nice long counter argument to your last post. Lost of example inside and outside the realm of gaming. Talked about industry standards and such . It was really amazing if I do say so myself. Took nearly 3 hours. I ended up accidently hitting a link and it erased everything I wrote... I basically cried myself to sleep that night. Any yes ... I have played FFXI ... since NA launch ... I probably have played more longer and more often than you ... just saying. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=19030
LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin?
I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system.
Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.
If I didn't know different, it's like EQ2, WOW & LOTRO all used the same engine to create their games. It's like how all games developed with Unreal Engine 3 look, feel, react, and work very similarly, from metal of honor to bioshock. They are different and unique games, each with their own story. But it feels more like you're playing an expansion or add-on of the same game rather than a whole new game.
>.> hang on ... you know this and accept this and you still call LORTO a clone of WOW?
Long story short on Wednesday night I typed a nice long counter argument to your last post. Lost of example inside and outside the realm of gaming. Talked about industry standards and such . It was really amazing if I do say so myself. Took nearly 3 hours. I ended up accidently hitting a link and it erased everything I wrote... I basically cried myself to sleep that night.
Any yes ... I have played FFXI ... since NA launch ... I probably have played more longer and more often than you ... just saying. http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=19030
LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin?
I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system.
Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.
If I didn't know different, it's like EQ2, WOW & LOTRO all used the same engine to create their games. It's like how all games developed with Unreal Engine 3 look, feel, react, and work very similarly, from metal of honor to bioshock. They are different and unique games, each with their own story. But it feels more like you're playing an expansion or add-on of the same game rather than a whole new game.
Okay ... first sorry I won't be going into nearly as much detail as I was expecting. I'm still bummed out about wednesday
In industry there are certain things that are borrowed from competitors. The example I had picked out before was the auto industry. At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard. All of those car that have been made since the first one with passenger side airbags were not "clones" of that model. What happened was the industry saw a potential add to their product and they decided to research and add to their models. Air bags, seat belts, automatic transmissions, headlights, turn signals, anti-lock breaks, power steering. All things that have been added to a single make at one point that other makes have saw and adapted into their product.
This is no different in any other industry. Take a look at Project Nadel and Sony's motion detector technology coming on the coat tails of the Wii. Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii? I'd hope not because you'd be wrong and I 'd like to think you are a very well educated person that this is just experiencing a misconception.
Problem I have with calling LORTO (or many "WoW-Clones") a "WoW clone" is calling it a clone. For a game to be a WoW clone you'd almost a precise copy of the game but just skinned differently. I won't argue with you there are WoW Clones out there. I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO. However the things that you do see are things that are becoming industry standards (see above with auto industry). Things that look good and work well in other games that Turbine has turned and used in their game. There things are the things in the user interface you talked about before: Health bars, action bar, etc. Now if you'd like I will go into why they are doing this later int another post but I don't want to type for another hour tonight. Yes it is by design, no it isn't for the sake of copying a game. The one thing you have to remember though. You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest. A lot of interface and game play game from EQ1 and even thing things that did not most had roots in some mechanic of EQ1.
Unreal Engine ... thanks for this fodder. You use a great example here. A lot of developing houses use Unreal. Why? Because it is a quality engine, I assume relatively inexpensive, and they see what other people have done with it and are like "I could do that something like that" or "I could do that but do that better" (see above with auto industry). Now I have not actually played Metal of Honor but if I am not mistaken it is a World War 2 FPS, correct? The major reason you are not seeing a lot similar between Metal of Honor and Bioshock is just that: There is not a lot similar. They two settings are not even comparable. One is a historic fps and the other is a fantasy fps. There are different rules governing each of those universes: mob movements, weapon damage, lightning shooting, etc. However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS. Both have you looking in a first person perspective with your gun in front of you (obviously). You have a hud with health and remaining ammo. You are moving across a map shooting at things getting in your way as you move to your goal. Is Bioshock a "clone" of MoH? No ... they are both FPS that is what they do (see above with auto industry).
Also in the argument is that MoH has something called pedigree to worry about. It is a series and you need to adopt parts of its predecessors in order to continue the series. If it doesn't then it almost becomes a new IP (this is the reason Modern Warfare 2 is called Modern Warfare 2 and not Call of Duty 6). Bioshock's pedigree was from System Shock which was so old that Bioshock was build from the ground up and almost is own IP. To compare Bioshock with MoH you are really comparing a pedigree from 2007 to a pedigree from last millennium.
Digression ... However, the rules governing EQ2, WoW and LORTO all were influenced by Everquest. Everquest was influenced by MMOs like UO and other MUDS. They were influenced by Dungeons and Dragons which was influenced by (you ready for this twist ... ) Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings.
Really FFXI shouldn't even be in this argument ... but I am going to use it anyway. Both FFXI and WoW were influenced by EQ. Both Blizzard and Square (not sure if they were even Square Enix at that time) wanted to break into the MMO market and both looked at EQ which was the game of its age (guess what you are looking above at). The true difference between evolution of WoW and FFXI is the PlayStation 2, more specifically, a mouse. You don't have a mouse on the PS2, you do on a PC. If you did have a mouse on PS2 you would have those action bars (they are called macro bars in FFXI) to click. You can't use the PS2 controller to control the player, camera, and a mouse cursor all at once. The whole menu system that was a staple of the series that differentiates FFXI from all those other MMOs was more a feasibility thing because of the platform the game was developed for.
Back to the point. Is LORTO a clone of WoW? No. Influenced by it? Probably. Not entirely sure if sights were set on WoW or EQ in development. The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself. It is a whole different set of lore and because of that they are very different games. WoW is comprised of two player-controlled factions fighting for control of the world. LORTO (like FFXI might mind you) is a player base coming together to fight a common computer-controlled enemy. It is what equates to PvP vs PvE. If you in LORTO you could choose to side with Sauron or not when you make your toon and you play the game fighting anyone you can from the opposite faction then you would have a problem. Mattering on how the game actually played in that case you might have a clone (as it isn't I can only speculate). If you wanted to look at an MMO that you could call a clone of WoW, maybe you could look at WAR, but I think Warhammer influenced Warcraft a lot more than WoW influenced WAR (point: karma).
I have played both games. I do not get the sense I am playing WoW when I play LORTO or vice versa. If it is a clone you shouldn't be able to tell one game from the other outside of graphics. If you can't tell the difference then that is on you and I can't begin to tell you that you would be wrong about that.
P.S. In another post I'll discuss economies of WoW and like games and FFXI and why they are different. I spent a lot of time on that on Wednesday :-/
I'm sure FF14 would be more successful if it catered to casual players, but if you can solo anything meaningful at all, than it's not exactly targeting typical FFXI players is it? Hmmmm....
It may lure some of 11's players away, but if it's too easy then it definitely won't keep them for long. FFXi doesn't retain players because they don't know any better, they genuinely care about what they've earned!
At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard.
Where has that gotten us? If 'passenger side airbags' were the only single system that was cloned, that'd be fine... But it's that all the cars have the same features, and are virtually identical in every way.
This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.
Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii?
They are taking aspects of the Wii and making something that people want. But the Wii isn't in competition with Microsoft and Sony. MS & Sony are in the hardcore gamer market, and doing very well. Wii is a simple, cheap, fun, easy system. Even if Sony came out with a PS-EASY, it wouldn't sell as well.
The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.
I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.
You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest
The original EQ was the 1970 Toyota Celica (the model T being UO and AC). But where WOW, EQ2, and LOTRO are just the Camry, Accord, and Elantra, FFXI is a whole new class of car. FFXI may not be a Tesla Roadster, but it's at least electric. I'm not sure if the analogy can work through the whole post, but we'll see...
However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS.
I think that's our disagreement. You think I see similarities because they're both FPS. I really see similarities because they're both FPS, made with the unreal engine. Thus they have the same movement styles, the same graphical capabilities, similar HUD look, and similar mob movements. They are very similar because they're made with the same engine.
That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories.
As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.
The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself.
I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word Clone as you are taking a literal definition by clone most people know what Im talking about, there just isnt a good single word to use for:
A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems.
Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.
The bottom line, which you are failing to see, rather spectacularly in fact, is simple... When you strip away the story and lore, and you look at game design, the literal code behind the game. The design of each system, the look and feel of the game...
LOTRO is 90% WOW EQ2 is 95% WOW FFXI is say 30% WOW, if that
Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities.
At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard.
Where has that gotten us? If 'passenger side airbags' were the only single system that was cloned, that'd be fine... But it's that all the cars have the same features, and are virtually identical in every way.
This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.
Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii?
They are taking aspects of the Wii and making something that people want. But the Wii isn't in competition with Microsoft and Sony. MS & Sony are in the hardcore gamer market, and doing very well. Wii is a simple, cheap, fun, easy system. Even if Sony came out with a PS-EASY, it wouldn't sell as well.
The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.
I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.
You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest
The original EQ was the 1970 Toyota Celica (the model T being UO and AC). But where WOW, EQ2, and LOTRO are just the Camry, Accord, and Elantra, FFXI is a whole new class of car. FFXI may not be a Tesla Roadster, but it's at least electric. I'm not sure if the analogy can work through the whole post, but we'll see...
However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS.
I think that's our disagreement. You think I see similarities because they're both FPS. I really see similarities because they're both FPS, made with the unreal engine. Thus they have the same movement styles, the same graphical capabilities, similar HUD look, and similar mob movements. They are very similar because they're made with the same engine.
That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories.
As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.
The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself.
I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word “Clone” as you are taking a literal definition… by ‘clone’ most people know what I’m talking about, there just isn’t a good single word to use for:
A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems.
Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.
The bottom line, which you are failing to see, rather spectacularly in fact, is simple... When you strip away the story and lore, and you look at game design, the literal code behind the game. The design of each system, the look and feel of the game...
LOTRO is 90% WOW
EQ2 is 95% WOW
FFXI is say 30% WOW, if that
Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities.
i still dont understand why people say FFXI and EQ2 are like WoW at all, they both came BEFORE WoW, so you cant say anthing before the game came out is "like" WoW, becuase WoW is "like" them.
EQ2 came out the same month as WOW, but that doesn't really matter... The standard isn't about what comes out first, it's about which is most popular. If a game company comes in and wants to duplicate a system that's well liked in WOW, they aren't doing it because EQ did it 4 years earlier. They're doing it because WOW has the largest playerbase (and they want a large playerbase, so lets copy the people that have what we want).
He's saying none of the games are like WOW, and I'm saying where many other games are like WOW, FFXI is severely not like it.
WOW did what a lot of highly successful inventors do. WOW took from all the best ideas from all the other games out there and brought them together into a single game. Easy. Then they made it so anybody could play (just like the Wii).
FFXI didn't. For a vast majority of their content and system design, FFXI did its own thing.
Take any system that was popular and well received by many players.
WOW Copied the system with a basic copy & paste. - As did LOTRO, EQ2, and too may other games to count.
FFXI asked why people liked the system. They figured out the underlying reasons and improved upon the system, then put it together so it blended flawlessly with the other systems.
That's the difference. SE's attention to detail shines just as brightly as turbine's lack of detail.
I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.
You hit it on the head right there ... no need to go any farther. Camry and Accord are cars that are in the same class just as WoW and LORTO are. The use of the word clone is the problem. Saying that the Accord is a clone of a Camry isn't a valid statement.
The part I left out of my last post that I had apart of the Wednesday fiasco was talking about industry standards and why you use them. What all industry does it is sees and idea that someone does and tries to mimic it. Why? Firstly because it works and secondly because when you have Joe MMOer looking to play a different game you want him to have some semblance of familiarity between products. A great example is between FFXI and the other MMOs out there. Where FFXI the default is to move around with the number pad and other MMOs you are using WASD and a mouse. There is an example on the FFXI forums here where I was talking someone through how to move and they were hellbend on using the mouse (which I warned not to). Why? because he was used to it. Do you know how many people tried and left FFXI just because it was too different? I don't have enough fingers to count the number of people who have come up to me and told me they quit FFXI because the spacebar doesn't make your toon jump. ... entirely true can't make shit like that up. I am not suggesting innovation is a bad thing or FFXI was wrong in anyway ... it is just the way of the world.
Long story short you mimic like this to pull people away from the "best of class" choice, give them an experience that makes them forget the original, then put out version 2 of your product and rely on brand loyalty to drive the sales of your second version. Where as if you started with version 2 your sales would not be as good because the concept would be too foreign to the consumer. * IMPORANT REVELATION * This is kinda where SE did shit a little back asswards. They originally put out a product that was too foreign and are now starting to move back towards the mainstream a little bit ... which gets people up and arms and is the initial reason for this thread ... boy how shit goes in circles. * END REVELATION *
It happens everywhere. I mean the keyboard you are typing on was birthed from the typewriter. When they invented computers they didn't feel the need to change the keyboard to anything that isn't resemble a type writer. Why? Because people were used to it. A QWERTY keyboard layout is not the best layout of letters and typing (there are studies out there if you want to find them). We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.
Did you ever have to explain a computer to a grandparent? A few years back it was hell because it was such a foreign concept (those grandparents have died off and have been replace with slightly more tech savvy ones). You need to keep some familiarity between products or else people get lost. It is kinda like you can only reinvent the wheel so many times.
Quickly on the topic of community: Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another. FFXI today could be full of mmo sociopaths like WoW. It just so happens that the those childish prats for the most part stayed away or were forced out because "the game was too hard (boo-fucking-ho)"
To say that FFXI is any % of WoW is wrong and is a problem when talking to people. WoW might be the gold standard in people minds but people need to think outside the tunnel vision sites like this one breed. Take a step back. FFXI is no 30% of WoW. FFXI is 30% of EQ. To really continue the analogy:
MUDs :: Horse
EQ :: Ford Model T
WoW :: Toyota Camry
LORTO :: Honda Accord
EQ2 :: Ford Focus
FFXI :: Dodge Ram
[EDIT: changed FFXI from an F150 to a Ram to have different car makes for the two different companies]
We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.
Well, the Dvorak keyboard system is hands down better. I mean the max people can get on QWERTY is ~130 WPM and on Dvorak there's people pushing 210+. I've tried to learn it, and had mixed results...
Never got quite up to my old typing speed, cause my boss would see that I'm typing slowly, realize I'm trying to learn Dvorak again, and give me more work... damn smart bosses...
At any rate, back on topic...
Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another.
Well, while I agree it's not programmers themselves, they're really just code monkeys for the developer. But the crux of the issue is that the developers DO control the community to a very large degree. How could you have played FFXI for almost as long as I have and not know that?
The entire reason behind FFXI's excellent community is the design of the systems. If you design systems that penalize you for grouping, people wont group and you get a crappy community out of it. If you design systems that facilitate, promote, even force grouping and player to player interaction, then you get a thriving economy and community out of it. FFXI is the proof of that. Every system is designed for player to player interaction from the AH, Mob drops, critter placement and respawns, spells & abilities, down to the design of the classes themselves.
That's not to say they got it perfect, there's many things that would have helped even more, and they should have done... Maybe this requires a new topic...
It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.
In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC. I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC. I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.
I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs. No, not WoW. I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does. I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump, number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.
I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay. So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics. Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often. He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.
Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics.
I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller. I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.
It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.
In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC. I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC. I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.
I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs. No, not WoW. I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does. I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump, number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.
I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay. So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics. Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often. He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.
Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics.
I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller. I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.
People like to use what they previously used before which is why people think the control for the PC version of FFXI are so terrible. People grew up on the WASD and mouse and that is what they will use and refuse to use anything else. Try now a days to play and FPS where your shoot and/or aim buttons are not on the triggers or bumpers of your controller. No one would play because the controls would be to foreign (and I'd personally think would be a step back in development of the genre).
But to answer your fears... yes FFXIV will use a controller. Developed for the PC and PS3 ... PS3 has no native mouse or keyboard. The ideas of a console would be have all parts of the games have a common thread. Hardware included.
If they wanted to have keyboard and mouse only on FFXIV they would have to include the peripherals with the core game (FFXI did this with the PS2 HDD). It raises the price point and wouldn't be the best marketing strategy because it would make the PS3 version of the game more expensive than the PC version. You could easily spend $30 outside the price of the game for a keyboard and mouse for your PS3 (i did it ... rocketfish keyboard/mouse combo off ebay ... works with PS3/360/PC ... I'd recommend).
Honestly what they best course of action would be would have a Standard version of FFXIV where you get the core game and a Limited edition or some kind in which you also get a limited edition of the PS3 chat pad which could be used for multiple game.
Problem being is there are no function keys of the chat pad ... but then again they could use action bars and not a macro menu in which case meh ....
Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it
Personally I'd like the idea of being about to jump in an out of the game quickly. As FFXI is right now you honestly can't jump on for a half hour if that is all you have time for (and I think they can lose player base with that fact). Truly you need 2-3 hours minimum you can sit down and play FFXI for a full filling experience. I also hate the fact that you need to be married to the game in order to play endgame. There have been linkshell I have been kicked out of because I wasn't camping a king at noon or at 4 am. Not very cool when you consider I work.
Which is exactly why it should be aimed at normal players, and not jobless drop outs who live in their parents basement.
Personally I'd like the idea of being about to jump in an out of the game quickly. As FFXI is right now you honestly can't jump on for a half hour if that is all you have time for (and I think they can lose player base with that fact). Truly you need 2-3 hours minimum you can sit down and play FFXI for a full filling experience. I also hate the fact that you need to be married to the game in order to play endgame. There have been linkshell I have been kicked out of because I wasn't camping a king at noon or at 4 am. Not very cool when you consider I work.
Which is exactly why it should be aimed at normal players, and not jobless drop outs who live in their parents basement.
Its a diffrent genre for a diffrent type of player. before WoW like games EVERYTHING was like ff11 where you needed to set aside a good chunk of time to play it. I work and play FFXI (usualy play for a handful of hours at night and alot more on weekends wich is perfectly fine. Though nowadays you can actually play for 30 mins and get somthing done (FoV made solo or small group grinding much easyer)
I agree some endgame is built for the hardcore, but not as much as you say, hell most of it you just join a shell that does a specific event a couple days of the week. Limbus,Dynamis,Enherjar(sp?),Sky,Sea,ZNMs.....actually most everything execpt for camping HNMs and Kings dont require random and that large of time slots, a couple hours 2-3 time a week works perfect for all the others. Yes you basicly have to have it scheduled but we all have can do it, a life or not.
If you really want a game you can play for a half hour a couple times a week and do everything solo well there are plenty of those out and about since WoWs success. or you can just play a single player RPG (seems like thats the better idea for most people who want those things out of an MMO) Honestly if you have such minmal time you really shouldnt be playing MMO's in the first place.
38% yes?! Omg let final fantasy be final fantasy please. Final Fantasy has always been about having a story with a group of players. Don`t make FFXIV into yet another lame massive single player. Guh! When casual gamers are tired of doing casual things they would want a hardcore game. Please FFXIV, be that hardcore game!
I personal prefer to have a mix of both casual and hardcore content. That way the casual players and hardcore players are happy. It'll also help Square Enix, cause then the player base will be far larger. The casuals will be happy they have content they can access when they have time, and the hardcores will have content to keep them into the game. What seemed to happen to WoW is casuals started complaining and epics are practically being handed out. I really don't want SE going that route.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed: And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" ~Lord George Gordon Byron
Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it
I like how you put this at the end so I had to read through all the boring technical crap. LOL. You should have put this in the beginning so I didn't have to waste my time. :P
Thanks but no thanks.
If they want the PC crowd to move away from huge competition like WoW, they need to make it intuitive for PC Players.
Comments
I never understand why people get upset over how a game is. There is nothing wrong with being a casual player because, to be honest, you should only ever be one and get out and have a life instead of having the light off for 12 hours a day staring at a screen. I mean...my light has only been off 10 hours
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
FFXI one of the best communities ever because it didn't cater to the casuals. FFXIV needs to be the same way or I'll be highly disappointed.
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is.
the problem is ALL games are becomeing solo friendly. there is nothing wrong with wanting group games.
I never said anything about grouping. I like solo and grouping. this thread is about casual gamers, not grouping.
he was just making a point about how the casual dominates the more hardcore so every developer wants a piece of the "solo and easy game" hence why there is such a massive lack of hardcore games since WoW. Thats likely why he is upset over how the game is the way it is.
WoW has actually hit upon a pretty good formulate to alleviate this problem. Make "hard core" modes that are optional but give better rewards. WoW has that for raids, but it looks like FFXIV could possibly have that for questing with the Guildleve system (let's hope) -- (and one would hope if it is like that for quests intended for leveling then it will also be like that for dungeons and such).
LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin?
I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system.
Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.
If I didn't know different, it's like EQ2, WOW & LOTRO all used the same engine to create their games. It's like how all games developed with Unreal Engine 3 look, feel, react, and work very similarly, from metal of honor to bioshock. They are different and unique games, each with their own story. But it feels more like you're playing an expansion or add-on of the same game rather than a whole new game.
LOTRO IS a clone of WOW. Since you have spent so much time in FFXI, do you not agree with the fact that EQ2, WOW, LOTRO and virtually ever game released SINCE WOW is in one side of the spectrum, each with common traits and curious similarities... Where FFXI is a game without an easily comparable twin?
I don't see how you can sit there and say that you don't see the similarities of many games to WOW when you've claimed to play WOW & FFXI. It's not just that they needed the game to be controller-friendly either, it's that they didn't use WOW as a template to constantly refer back to every time they designed a new system.
Now I'm talking about system design (user interface, battle systems, quest system, drop system, crafting, AH and the resulting community atmosphere) maybe you're talking about lore and how they all have unique story lines, races, and ultimate goals.
If I didn't know different, it's like EQ2, WOW & LOTRO all used the same engine to create their games. It's like how all games developed with Unreal Engine 3 look, feel, react, and work very similarly, from metal of honor to bioshock. They are different and unique games, each with their own story. But it feels more like you're playing an expansion or add-on of the same game rather than a whole new game.
Okay ... first sorry I won't be going into nearly as much detail as I was expecting. I'm still bummed out about wednesday
In industry there are certain things that are borrowed from competitors. The example I had picked out before was the auto industry. At one point cars didn't have passenger side airbags; now a days it is pretty standard. All of those car that have been made since the first one with passenger side airbags were not "clones" of that model. What happened was the industry saw a potential add to their product and they decided to research and add to their models. Air bags, seat belts, automatic transmissions, headlights, turn signals, anti-lock breaks, power steering. All things that have been added to a single make at one point that other makes have saw and adapted into their product.
This is no different in any other industry. Take a look at Project Nadel and Sony's motion detector technology coming on the coat tails of the Wii. Are you going to say that Sony and Microsoft are "cloning" the Wii? I'd hope not because you'd be wrong and I 'd like to think you are a very well educated person that this is just experiencing a misconception.
Problem I have with calling LORTO (or many "WoW-Clones") a "WoW clone" is calling it a clone. For a game to be a WoW clone you'd almost a precise copy of the game but just skinned differently. I won't argue with you there are WoW Clones out there. I won't argue with you there are some aspect in WoW that you can see in LOTRO. However the things that you do see are things that are becoming industry standards (see above with auto industry). Things that look good and work well in other games that Turbine has turned and used in their game. There things are the things in the user interface you talked about before: Health bars, action bar, etc. Now if you'd like I will go into why they are doing this later int another post but I don't want to type for another hour tonight. Yes it is by design, no it isn't for the sake of copying a game. The one thing you have to remember though. You need to take a step back from WoW. EQ2, WoW, LORTO, and even FFXI all have roots in the original Everquest. A lot of interface and game play game from EQ1 and even thing things that did not most had roots in some mechanic of EQ1.
Unreal Engine ... thanks for this fodder. You use a great example here. A lot of developing houses use Unreal. Why? Because it is a quality engine, I assume relatively inexpensive, and they see what other people have done with it and are like "I could do that something like that" or "I could do that but do that better" (see above with auto industry). Now I have not actually played Metal of Honor but if I am not mistaken it is a World War 2 FPS, correct? The major reason you are not seeing a lot similar between Metal of Honor and Bioshock is just that: There is not a lot similar. They two settings are not even comparable. One is a historic fps and the other is a fantasy fps. There are different rules governing each of those universes: mob movements, weapon damage, lightning shooting, etc. However you do see similarities ... because they are both FPS. Both have you looking in a first person perspective with your gun in front of you (obviously). You have a hud with health and remaining ammo. You are moving across a map shooting at things getting in your way as you move to your goal. Is Bioshock a "clone" of MoH? No ... they are both FPS that is what they do (see above with auto industry).
Also in the argument is that MoH has something called pedigree to worry about. It is a series and you need to adopt parts of its predecessors in order to continue the series. If it doesn't then it almost becomes a new IP (this is the reason Modern Warfare 2 is called Modern Warfare 2 and not Call of Duty 6). Bioshock's pedigree was from System Shock which was so old that Bioshock was build from the ground up and almost is own IP. To compare Bioshock with MoH you are really comparing a pedigree from 2007 to a pedigree from last millennium.
Digression ... However, the rules governing EQ2, WoW and LORTO all were influenced by Everquest. Everquest was influenced by MMOs like UO and other MUDS. They were influenced by Dungeons and Dragons which was influenced by (you ready for this twist ... ) Tolkien and The Lord of the Rings.
Really FFXI shouldn't even be in this argument ... but I am going to use it anyway. Both FFXI and WoW were influenced by EQ. Both Blizzard and Square (not sure if they were even Square Enix at that time) wanted to break into the MMO market and both looked at EQ which was the game of its age (guess what you are looking above at). The true difference between evolution of WoW and FFXI is the PlayStation 2, more specifically, a mouse. You don't have a mouse on the PS2, you do on a PC. If you did have a mouse on PS2 you would have those action bars (they are called macro bars in FFXI) to click. You can't use the PS2 controller to control the player, camera, and a mouse cursor all at once. The whole menu system that was a staple of the series that differentiates FFXI from all those other MMOs was more a feasibility thing because of the platform the game was developed for.
Back to the point. Is LORTO a clone of WoW? No. Influenced by it? Probably. Not entirely sure if sights were set on WoW or EQ in development. The major thing to look at isn't the aesthetics of the game which you are focusing on. It is the game itself. It is a whole different set of lore and because of that they are very different games. WoW is comprised of two player-controlled factions fighting for control of the world. LORTO (like FFXI might mind you) is a player base coming together to fight a common computer-controlled enemy. It is what equates to PvP vs PvE. If you in LORTO you could choose to side with Sauron or not when you make your toon and you play the game fighting anyone you can from the opposite faction then you would have a problem. Mattering on how the game actually played in that case you might have a clone (as it isn't I can only speculate). If you wanted to look at an MMO that you could call a clone of WoW, maybe you could look at WAR, but I think Warhammer influenced Warcraft a lot more than WoW influenced WAR (point: karma).
I have played both games. I do not get the sense I am playing WoW when I play LORTO or vice versa. If it is a clone you shouldn't be able to tell one game from the other outside of graphics. If you can't tell the difference then that is on you and I can't begin to tell you that you would be wrong about that.
P.S. In another post I'll discuss economies of WoW and like games and FFXI and why they are different. I spent a lot of time on that on Wednesday :-/
I'm sure FF14 would be more successful if it catered to casual players, but if you can solo anything meaningful at all, than it's not exactly targeting typical FFXI players is it? Hmmmm....
It may lure some of 11's players away, but if it's too easy then it definitely won't keep them for long. FFXi doesn't retain players because they don't know any better, they genuinely care about what they've earned!
This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.
They are taking aspects of the Wii and making something that people want. But the Wii isn't in competition with Microsoft and Sony. MS & Sony are in the hardcore gamer market, and doing very well. Wii is a simple, cheap, fun, easy system. Even if Sony came out with a PS-EASY, it wouldn't sell as well.The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord. The original EQ was the 1970 Toyota Celica (the model T being UO and AC). But where WOW, EQ2, and LOTRO are just the Camry, Accord, and Elantra, FFXI is a whole new class of car. FFXI may not be a Tesla Roadster, but it's at least electric. I'm not sure if the analogy can work through the whole post, but we'll see... I think that's our disagreement. You think I see similarities because they're both FPS. I really see similarities because they're both FPS, made with the unreal engine. Thus they have the same movement styles, the same graphical capabilities, similar HUD look, and similar mob movements. They are very similar because they're made with the same engine.That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories.
As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.
I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word Clone as you are taking a literal definition by clone most people know what Im talking about, there just isnt a good single word to use for:
A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems.
Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.
The bottom line, which you are failing to see, rather spectacularly in fact, is simple... When you strip away the story and lore, and you look at game design, the literal code behind the game. The design of each system, the look and feel of the game...
LOTRO is 90% WOW
EQ2 is 95% WOW
FFXI is say 30% WOW, if that
Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities.
This has just led to a severe lack of imagination and true innovation in the auto industry. The Big 3 have been making the same cars year after year instead of coming up with risky changes they all pump out the same crap and that has led to a sharp rise in foreign car sales and in all likelihood will see the end of at least one of these decades old companies.
They are taking aspects of the Wii and making something that people want. But the Wii isn't in competition with Microsoft and Sony. MS & Sony are in the hardcore gamer market, and doing very well. Wii is a simple, cheap, fun, easy system. Even if Sony came out with a PS-EASY, it wouldn't sell as well.The Wii did something innovative. They read the market and took a huge risk coming out with an underpowered, easy-to-use, fun game platform. Without that innovation, nobody would be trying to imitate them.
WOW is a Camry, LOTRO is an Accord.
The original EQ was the 1970 Toyota Celica (the model T being UO and AC). But where WOW, EQ2, and LOTRO are just the Camry, Accord, and Elantra, FFXI is a whole new class of car. FFXI may not be a Tesla Roadster, but it's at least electric. I'm not sure if the analogy can work through the whole post, but we'll see...
I think that's our disagreement. You think I see similarities because they're both FPS. I really see similarities because they're both FPS, made with the unreal engine. Thus they have the same movement styles, the same graphical capabilities, similar HUD look, and similar mob movements. They are very similar because they're made with the same engine.That's not to say I can't enjoy them separately for their stories.
As such, LOTRO, EQ2, and WOW are extremely similar. As they have the same look and feel, and many of identically designed systems, but separate and unique story lines.
I'm not just looking at the aesthetics; I'm looking at system design, community design... basically everything EXCEPT lore. Lore is fine, they all have different lore and story. They have to or they would be sued. Lore and story, yes. I do like the lore of each of the games, and I enjoy the story as it unfolds. That's what you focus on and the source of our argument. That and my use of the word “Clone” as you are taking a literal definition… by ‘clone’ most people know what I’m talking about, there just isn’t a good single word to use for:
A series of systems that all have the identical look and feel of another series of systems from another game. WOW & LOTRO have identical look, feel and underlying design of systems, where FFXI, while influenced by other games, does not have an identical look, feel or underlying design of its systems.
Yes, MMOs are all going to be alike, as you have an avatar that moves through 3d space, you typically have points of some kind be they experience, health, power, etc, you get better as you progress through the game, there are story elements that facilitate you forward through the game, etc.
The bottom line, which you are failing to see, rather spectacularly in fact, is simple... When you strip away the story and lore, and you look at game design, the literal code behind the game. The design of each system, the look and feel of the game...
LOTRO is 90% WOW
EQ2 is 95% WOW
FFXI is say 30% WOW, if that
Of course those #'s are all arbitrary, but they illustrate what I'm trying to say. FFXIV should stick to its roots of being a game set apart from WOW, not try to incorporate what people see as WOW's strengths into itself. FFXI is a great game BECAUSE of its differences, not because of its similarities.
i still dont understand why people say FFXI and EQ2 are like WoW at all, they both came BEFORE WoW, so you cant say anthing before the game came out is "like" WoW, becuase WoW is "like" them.
EQ2 came out the same month as WOW, but that doesn't really matter... The standard isn't about what comes out first, it's about which is most popular. If a game company comes in and wants to duplicate a system that's well liked in WOW, they aren't doing it because EQ did it 4 years earlier. They're doing it because WOW has the largest playerbase (and they want a large playerbase, so lets copy the people that have what we want).
He's saying none of the games are like WOW, and I'm saying where many other games are like WOW, FFXI is severely not like it.
WOW did what a lot of highly successful inventors do. WOW took from all the best ideas from all the other games out there and brought them together into a single game. Easy. Then they made it so anybody could play (just like the Wii).
FFXI didn't. For a vast majority of their content and system design, FFXI did its own thing.
Take any system that was popular and well received by many players.
WOW Copied the system with a basic copy & paste. - As did LOTRO, EQ2, and too may other games to count.
FFXI asked why people liked the system. They figured out the underlying reasons and improved upon the system, then put it together so it blended flawlessly with the other systems.
That's the difference. SE's attention to detail shines just as brightly as turbine's lack of detail.
You hit it on the head right there ... no need to go any farther. Camry and Accord are cars that are in the same class just as WoW and LORTO are. The use of the word clone is the problem. Saying that the Accord is a clone of a Camry isn't a valid statement.
The part I left out of my last post that I had apart of the Wednesday fiasco was talking about industry standards and why you use them. What all industry does it is sees and idea that someone does and tries to mimic it. Why? Firstly because it works and secondly because when you have Joe MMOer looking to play a different game you want him to have some semblance of familiarity between products. A great example is between FFXI and the other MMOs out there. Where FFXI the default is to move around with the number pad and other MMOs you are using WASD and a mouse. There is an example on the FFXI forums here where I was talking someone through how to move and they were hellbend on using the mouse (which I warned not to). Why? because he was used to it. Do you know how many people tried and left FFXI just because it was too different? I don't have enough fingers to count the number of people who have come up to me and told me they quit FFXI because the spacebar doesn't make your toon jump. ... entirely true can't make shit like that up. I am not suggesting innovation is a bad thing or FFXI was wrong in anyway ... it is just the way of the world.
Long story short you mimic like this to pull people away from the "best of class" choice, give them an experience that makes them forget the original, then put out version 2 of your product and rely on brand loyalty to drive the sales of your second version. Where as if you started with version 2 your sales would not be as good because the concept would be too foreign to the consumer. * IMPORANT REVELATION * This is kinda where SE did shit a little back asswards. They originally put out a product that was too foreign and are now starting to move back towards the mainstream a little bit ... which gets people up and arms and is the initial reason for this thread ... boy how shit goes in circles. * END REVELATION *
It happens everywhere. I mean the keyboard you are typing on was birthed from the typewriter. When they invented computers they didn't feel the need to change the keyboard to anything that isn't resemble a type writer. Why? Because people were used to it. A QWERTY keyboard layout is not the best layout of letters and typing (there are studies out there if you want to find them). We could all increase accuracy and efficiency while typing if we changed the keyboard layout, but we don't because it is familiar.
Did you ever have to explain a computer to a grandparent? A few years back it was hell because it was such a foreign concept (those grandparents have died off and have been replace with slightly more tech savvy ones). You need to keep some familiarity between products or else people get lost. It is kinda like you can only reinvent the wheel so many times.
Quickly on the topic of community: Programmers do not control the community; the players do. You cannot program the game to make people play one way or another. FFXI today could be full of mmo sociopaths like WoW. It just so happens that the those childish prats for the most part stayed away or were forced out because "the game was too hard (boo-fucking-ho)"
To say that FFXI is any % of WoW is wrong and is a problem when talking to people. WoW might be the gold standard in people minds but people need to think outside the tunnel vision sites like this one breed. Take a step back. FFXI is no 30% of WoW. FFXI is 30% of EQ. To really continue the analogy:
MUDs :: Horse
EQ :: Ford Model T
WoW :: Toyota Camry
LORTO :: Honda Accord
EQ2 :: Ford Focus
FFXI :: Dodge Ram
[EDIT: changed FFXI from an F150 to a Ram to have different car makes for the two different companies]
Well, the Dvorak keyboard system is hands down better. I mean the max people can get on QWERTY is ~130 WPM and on Dvorak there's people pushing 210+. I've tried to learn it, and had mixed results...
Never got quite up to my old typing speed, cause my boss would see that I'm typing slowly, realize I'm trying to learn Dvorak again, and give me more work... damn smart bosses...
At any rate, back on topic...
Well, while I agree it's not programmers themselves, they're really just code monkeys for the developer. But the crux of the issue is that the developers DO control the community to a very large degree. How could you have played FFXI for almost as long as I have and not know that?
The entire reason behind FFXI's excellent community is the design of the systems. If you design systems that penalize you for grouping, people wont group and you get a crappy community out of it. If you design systems that facilitate, promote, even force grouping and player to player interaction, then you get a thriving economy and community out of it. FFXI is the proof of that. Every system is designed for player to player interaction from the AH, Mob drops, critter placement and respawns, spells & abilities, down to the design of the classes themselves.
That's not to say they got it perfect, there's many things that would have helped even more, and they should have done... Maybe this requires a new topic...
It does turn my stomach a bit to respond to something using WOW as a comparison because I think it is the Wal-Mart of MMOs, but you cannot deny the fact that it is competition.
In my experience I started playing console and gradually upgraded to PC. I got hooked on MMOs from playing FFXI on my PS2, and then when I got my computer, I got another copy for my PC. I immediately had to get a controller for my PC as well because the keyboard controls were complicated for me.
I soon grew tired of FFXI and moved onto other MMOs. No, not WoW. I refused to play WoW because I'm one of those people that like to try things no one else usually does. I got used to the gameplay of the PC using WASD for movement and Spacebar for jump, number keys for the main hotbar, etc etc.
I was really itching for something like FFXI the whole time because I really missed the loads of content and unique teamwork-type gameplay. So I went back to FFXI . I immediately was frustrated with the keyboard controls and turned off by the out-dated graphics. Also my boyfriend is an avid PC Gamer and plays games with me often. He refused to even try playing FFXI with me due to the lack of intuitiveness of the GUI and controls compared to other PC Games.
Now I say other PC Games which do include A LOT of MMOs, but even single-player games on the PC have similar keyboard mechanics.
I really hope this new one does not revolve around the controller. I am not completely against controllers, but they really need to make it easy for both.
People like to use what they previously used before which is why people think the control for the PC version of FFXI are so terrible. People grew up on the WASD and mouse and that is what they will use and refuse to use anything else. Try now a days to play and FPS where your shoot and/or aim buttons are not on the triggers or bumpers of your controller. No one would play because the controls would be to foreign (and I'd personally think would be a step back in development of the genre).
But to answer your fears... yes FFXIV will use a controller. Developed for the PC and PS3 ... PS3 has no native mouse or keyboard. The ideas of a console would be have all parts of the games have a common thread. Hardware included.
If they wanted to have keyboard and mouse only on FFXIV they would have to include the peripherals with the core game (FFXI did this with the PS2 HDD). It raises the price point and wouldn't be the best marketing strategy because it would make the PS3 version of the game more expensive than the PC version. You could easily spend $30 outside the price of the game for a keyboard and mouse for your PS3 (i did it ... rocketfish keyboard/mouse combo off ebay ... works with PS3/360/PC ... I'd recommend).
Honestly what they best course of action would be would have a Standard version of FFXIV where you get the core game and a Limited edition or some kind in which you also get a limited edition of the PS3 chat pad which could be used for multiple game.
Problem being is there are no function keys of the chat pad ... but then again they could use action bars and not a macro menu in which case meh ....
Anywho the moral of the story is ... Go give WoW a shot. It isn't a bad game, the community makes it bad. Don't stop yourself from playing a game you might like just because everyone like it
Personally I'd like the idea of being about to jump in an out of the game quickly. As FFXI is right now you honestly can't jump on for a half hour if that is all you have time for (and I think they can lose player base with that fact). Truly you need 2-3 hours minimum you can sit down and play FFXI for a full filling experience. I also hate the fact that you need to be married to the game in order to play endgame. There have been linkshell I have been kicked out of because I wasn't camping a king at noon or at 4 am. Not very cool when you consider I work.
Which is exactly why it should be aimed at normal players, and not jobless drop outs who live in their parents basement.
Its a diffrent genre for a diffrent type of player. before WoW like games EVERYTHING was like ff11 where you needed to set aside a good chunk of time to play it. I work and play FFXI (usualy play for a handful of hours at night and alot more on weekends wich is perfectly fine. Though nowadays you can actually play for 30 mins and get somthing done (FoV made solo or small group grinding much easyer)
I agree some endgame is built for the hardcore, but not as much as you say, hell most of it you just join a shell that does a specific event a couple days of the week. Limbus,Dynamis,Enherjar(sp?),Sky,Sea,ZNMs.....actually most everything execpt for camping HNMs and Kings dont require random and that large of time slots, a couple hours 2-3 time a week works perfect for all the others. Yes you basicly have to have it scheduled but we all have can do it, a life or not.
If you really want a game you can play for a half hour a couple times a week and do everything solo well there are plenty of those out and about since WoWs success. or you can just play a single player RPG (seems like thats the better idea for most people who want those things out of an MMO) Honestly if you have such minmal time you really shouldnt be playing MMO's in the first place.
38% yes?! Omg let final fantasy be final fantasy please. Final Fantasy has always been about having a story with a group of players. Don`t make FFXIV into yet another lame massive single player. Guh! When casual gamers are tired of doing casual things they would want a hardcore game. Please FFXIV, be that hardcore game!
I personal prefer to have a mix of both casual and hardcore content. That way the casual players and hardcore players are happy. It'll also help Square Enix, cause then the player base will be far larger. The casuals will be happy they have content they can access when they have time, and the hardcores will have content to keep them into the game. What seemed to happen to WoW is casuals started complaining and epics are practically being handed out. I really don't want SE going that route.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron
Hardcore FTW wow = fail for real gamers
I like how you put this at the end so I had to read through all the boring technical crap. LOL. You should have put this in the beginning so I didn't have to waste my time. :P
Thanks but no thanks.
If they want the PC crowd to move away from huge competition like WoW, they need to make it intuitive for PC Players.