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Why Alganon is being compared to WoW (according to David Allen)
The following is completely my opinion. I'm not out to personally attack David Allen but to dispute his logic. I'm sure hes probably a very nice person who is very dedicated but I'm still going to debate what I think are some GLARING flaws in his logic.
I recently read the MMO gamer interview with David Allen and found that I actually agreed with a lot more of what he is saying that I expected to. I also found a lot of it to be extremely ironic and disagreed with quite a lot. The following is my dissection of the part that interested me the most. Why Alganon is so much like WoW.
David Allen: Well one big problem is the industry has been flooded with low quality F2P games all trying to ‘take a bite of the WoW pie.’ Most of these games have only one purpose – to make money. The F2P model is popular because it allows lower quality games to make more money. In reality, since WoW, very few quality fantasy-based MMOGs have been released, and those games went out of their way to try and be different from WoW. It’s not uncommon for players who pick up these games find that the features designed to make the game “different,” actually make the game less fun. The designers of these games made a decision to sacrifice “fun” for “different.”
I agree with the low quality games all trying to take a bite out of the WoW pie. The ironic thing is that EXACTLY how I would describe Alganon. A cheap knock-off of Warcraft. I assume he’s talking about AoC and WAR when he says fantasy mmos that went out of their way to be different
And this is where I have a bone to pick. I think he totally misunderstood why those two games and for that matter all other post WoW fantasy mmos, didn’t turn out to be huge success stories. I haven’t played AoC (Having had enough brains to not to be an early adopter) but I certainly have played plenty of WAR and I found it to be quite similar to WoW as far as overall feel went.
However the QUALITY was SORELY lacking. AoC had similar problems all hype no quality at launch.
They would have both been FUN AND DIFFERENT (although not hugely different) had they had higher QUALITY. Its not that they sacrificed fun to be different from WoW they just flat out had serious QA issues and both could have used 6 months to grow up before launch.
David Allen
Players aren’t upset there’s a game that resembles WoW. They’re upset that for the past few years they’ve been bombarded and desensitized by a combination of “weak” games and advertising that sells them on the idea that “similar is bad.” When people say a movie that reminds them of their favorite film, but with a different plot, characters and setting, that means they enjoyed the movie. When you have a meal that reminds you of the home cooking you loved as a kid, that is a great thing. However, for the past few years, every MMOG released has spent millions of dollars trying to convince gamers that “fun doesn’t matter; different is what you want,” and for many gamers, this marketing worked.
Excuse me Mr. Allen I know I’m not a game developer and don’t have a business degree but, I once again think you completely misunderstand reality. Its VERY possible to be fun and different it just takes a little imagination.
It is perfectly possible to make a high fantasy massively multiplayer game that is very different from the current genre (The one dominated by WoW and similar games) that is fun, innovative and a breath of fresh air.
Many people are tired of games that are similar to WoW, but that isn't because of some big brother marketing scheme. Its because they got bored of that style of game because its been getting rammed down their throats constantly.
Once again I fail to comprehend why you think that all these games weren’t fun because they tried to be different.
David Allen
Being compared to the most successful MMOG of all time is not a bad thing. Players don’t want a WoW clone; they do, however, want a game they have just as much fun playing. They want a vibrant immersive world they want to be a part of. They want a control scheme that feels natural to them. They want a game that is fun to play. Alganon provides all of those things. Unfortunately, doing so makes it easy for players who have had their views shaped by the “similar is bad” marketing of other games to focus on these similar aspects.
What it comes down to is this: Alganon is a good solid game people can play and enjoy. If you look for similarities, you will find them. Many of the things that are fun in Alganon are also fun in other games. While this turns some people off, those who take the time to look at Alganon as its own product see that this is only part of what makes Alganon great. The players who look beyond the surface quickly end up becoming our biggest fans.
I certianly agree it all comes down to quality. However being origional is important too.
David I’m sorry but in the long run I just don’t find your game fun. Want to know why? Well besides the fact that its buggy, laggy and unfinished (I understand you ran out of money but for Zul‘jins sake.) it dose nothing new. It doesn’t take any particularly bold steps in any new direction.
It dose what so many, many, mmos (Most of them f2p) have done in the past few years. It takes the WoW formulae, copies the basic infrastructure (UI, crafting, stats, itemization and so on) tacks of a few mildly innovative and poorly implemented ideas and then churns out yet another mediocre high fantasy mmo that is nothing like the product your web site says you are delivering.
Similar isn’t bad. Boring and bland is bad. At least an MMO that is different (See darkfall EVE) has a chance to get things together.
Trying to break into a saturated and dominated market with a product that is unfinished, mediocre and incredibly similar to so many other games? Well lets see how that goes shall we.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
Comments
I have nothing to add really, just wanted to say that I completely agree with your views of Alganon.
I think if the game was F2P with RMT it might have had a chance. Being P2P I see it going the way of Horizons unless a miracle happens.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
David Allen's biggest failing is that he wants to be Nintendo. What I mean is that he wanted Horizon's and Alganon to be like the Wii. Lower graphics can be forgiven if gameplay is outstanding. The problem is he tried to create the Wii, but ended up with a Playstation 2 that only has one controller port and plays only 25% of the games available and no DVD movies. Ya, it works, but when you already have a Playstation 2 available, why buy a poorly built knock off for the same cost?
Darzin -- A Gnome in a Night Elf World
Seems to me that DA believes - or is at least trying to argue - that being P2P = "Better Quality Game" by virtue of the fact that it's not F2P. That's a really simplified summary of course, but in reading his comments, that seems to be the way he thinks. F2P are popular because they're lower quality... Well then what does that say about the fact that games like Perfect World, Allods, RoM and a number of others all demonstrate far higher production quality than Alganon does? The proof is in the playing and, compared to a number of F2P MMOs I've played - in beta, mind you - Alganon would rank with the worst of them.
As for "marketing" that "similar is bad" being the reason people don't like games similar to WoW... Oh really, Mr. Allen? We don't really want something new and different, we're merely brainwashed through marketing to believe we do? Seriously? Is this arm-chair psycho-analysis session free, or is the bill in the mail? That is some of the most blatant, spin-tastic BS I've ever read. It's not that people are sick of getting the same game wrapped in a barely different package... it's just we *think* we are by "clever marketing". Yeah right... we've all been suffering some shared delusion that originality and uniqueness are bad. Give me a freaking break.
Sorry, but the more I read from DA in defense of Alganon, the more full of crap the guy appears. He needs to just shut up with his myopic, self-serving pet theories, and be honest, by saying "Yes, we know there are problems with the game, we know it's missing a lot of the unique features we've hyped about it... and we're doing our best to deliver".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Seems to me that DA believes - or is at least trying to argue - that being P2P = "Better Quality Game" by virtue of the fact that it's not F2P. That's a really simplified summary of course, but in reading his comments, that seems to be the way he thinks. F2P are popular because they're lower quality... Well then what does that say about the fact that games like Perfect World, Allods, RoM and a number of others all demonstrate far higher production quality than Alganon does? The proof is in the playing and, compared to a number of F2P MMOs I've played - in beta, mind you - Alganon would rank with the worst of them.
As for "marketing" that "similar is bad" being the reason people don't like games similar to WoW... Oh really, Mr. Allen? We don't really want something new and different, we're merely brainwashed through marketing to believe we do? Seriously? Is this arm-chair psycho-analysis session free, or is the bill in the mail? That is some of the most blatant, spin-tastic BS I've ever read. It's not that people are sick of getting the same game wrapped in a barely different package... it's just we *think* we are by "clever marketing". Yeah right... we've all been suffering some shared delusion that originality and uniqueness are bad. Give me a freaking break.
Sorry, but the more I read from DA in defense of Alganon, the more full of crap the guy appears. He needs to just shut up, keep his myopic, self-serving pet theories to himself and just be honest, by saying "Yes, we know there are problems with the game, we know it's missing a lot of the unique features we've hyped about it... and we're doing our best to deliver".
I think the guy is seriously out of touch with reality myself. People WANT creativity, origionality and quality. Right now Quest Online has failed to deliver on all three and David Allen is spinning and throwing bull left right and center.
What I wonder is if he HONESTLY believes what he is saying.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
I doubt he does. I think he read the WoW forums and is just repeating the things that the more vocal people there tend to say over and over again. Maybe he's a moron and actually believes it, but I really doubt it. He's telling people what they want to hear in the hopes that they will buy his game before everyone figures out how much it sucks.
Allen's answer to criticisms is usually that you shouldn't compare his game to other games, despite that comparison being his prime design philosophy. He says you could concentrate on whether or not the game is fun. And it isn't. It's shallow, half-finished, and unimaginative. You know what Alganon feels like? It feels like the MMO equivalent of a direct to dvd sequel, without any of the stars from the original. Alganon is the video game version of The Butterfly Effect 2.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
LOL! Best quote yet.
Darzin -- A Gnome in a Night Elf World
This was the most remarkable part of the interview. David Allen has garnered a reputation as some sort of breathtakingly innovative design god, whose marvellous ideas have so far been kept from fruition by the failings of current technology, and of course the treachery of other Davids.
And here he is basically coming out and saying that yes, he has made a derivative game, and yes, he intended to, because people don't want innovation, we only think we do because we've been brainwashed into thinking similar is bad!
Because Alganon is pretty much like your post : Copy&paste what all the other people said and add nothing of significance of your own.
Warhammer didn't fail because it was too much (or too little) like WoW. It failed because it was an incomplete, buggy, shoddy piece of garbage. Much of that slop is still quite apparent even now.
If it had been smooth and polished (with a good end game) at release, it would have been a big hit and most WoW PvPers would now be playing it instead.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Are you talking about my post or Tro's?
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
DA is obviously out of touch with reality in terms of what people want, and why certain games have failed to be large commercial successes.
Perhaps if he actually played a few of them he'd understand better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I say that quality was the BIGGEST factor towards WAR's boom and bust, but I don't think the fact that it was similar to WoW did it too many favors.
If it had higher quality period it would have done well dispite being similar to WoW. If the pvp was WAY better than WoW then likely what you say would be true it would be considered THE pvp fantasy mmo.
As it is WAR suffers from being quite similar to WoW and being at having much, much, lower quality than it should have.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
Aside from having virtually the same player races (other than trolls and goblins), how would you say Warhammer was like WoW? In my opinion, it was very different.
Even scenarios were handled quite a bit differently than WoW's BGs.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Making a game that is too much like WoW has one major, huge CRIPPLING flaw:
You WILL be competing with WoW. Which is, as far as business strategies go, a death sentence.
And from a consumer's point of view:
Why would you want to play a new game which is exactly like an already existing game? Alganon is far too similar to WoW to get it's own consumer base off the ground, the game will not live past it's first year, especially because they can't keep up the same amount of content and updates as Blizzard can.
edit:
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/screenshots/112009/inline/18245.jpg
Holy shit. A female orc warlock in Ashenvale. Or would anyone really say that this is 100% original Alganon?
Playing: WF
Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA
I was staggered by the quotes of Allen's interview too. Not merely a collosal failure of the imagination but a sort of knowing perverse acceptance of it.
Prospective gamers reading such articles are looking for inspiration. A constant disappointment of new games has wrung most of the optimism out of me at this point, but I'll happily read about innovations in design, whether I believe they'll actually come into existance or not. But if the best he can do is: "good, solid game," then how does he expect to achieve at least a groundswell of enthusiastic hopefuls?
But you don't understand all those disappointing games were failures because they tried to be diffferent instead of trying to be fun!
The only reason people are reacting badly to alganon is because they have been bombarded with advertizing that has brainwashed them that similar is bad!
A game developer with a business degree told me so, its gotta be true!
(end of sarcasm) I have to say I respect vision and imagination. I was one of the people who was hoping that Aventurine would actually pull off somthing close to what they origionaly promised with Darkfall. I'm hopeful for SW:TOR although I am a little Leery that they might be biting off a heck of a lot more than they can chew.
I honestly think that a Developer (especially an Indie one) has to be insane to try and make a high fantasy game based off WoW.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!