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Add skill to MMORPG?
Hansen88a
Member UncommonPosts: 7
Hello!
I did play world of warcraft for a long time and also tried Aion and Age of Conan.
Everywhere people complain that there is no skill in these games, most of all WoW. It's just keyboard hotkeys, randomness and auto-hit.
Well my question is; What do you add or remove so that skills matter in these type of MMORPG games?
Suggestion 1: Remove auto-hit, and you aim some of your spells and hits by yourself with a aim like CS. Where you hit matters, hitting head gives like 10% more dmg, rest of body like 5%.
Suggestion 2: Add some basics like, jumping backwards or ducking will avoid the opponents attack, meaning you have to time it. But these type of spells should have a few minutes cooldown.
Suggestion 3: Remove all % factors. Like critical hit, miss %, dodge %, hit %, parry % and so on. Add firm numbers and dont base the system on luck.
What do you think of the 3 suggestions i gave, you think they would work?
Do you know any other game, or have any ideas yourself how to add more skills in these type of games?
Regards,
Hansen
Comments
Darkfall has most of that
Aventurine-hater since December 5, 2009
I think they NEED to implement some way to make them more competitive. A new player should have at least a 30% chance of hitting any player in game. I also feel that hit should do at least 5% of the max health of the other players. That way at least a large group of newer players could take down a higher level players.
I totally area about the removal of auto target but do think that healers need some way of auto targeting though.
I also HATE the radar that is implemented in ANY pvp type game. Where is the surprise? Only there with stealth toons which is pretty lame. I want a warrior to be able to sneak up on me as well.
That would allow melee to be useful in open world pvp.
I also think that healing needs to have some sort max out so a healer could just sit there healing over and over while some max level players ganks over and over again.
This combined with a non Tiered game world would make the game feel more alive if a new player wants to start playing an older game. The tiered games leave empty areas in starter areas and ruins the immersion for new players. There needs to be non-started areas. Cities need to have high and low level content near them to attract higher level players to areas where new players start.
I'm gonna stick my neck out and actually defend WoW by telling you to go and win some high ranked PvP arena matches without skill.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
I didnt start this thread to flame or complain. Im intressted in people's views and ideas on how you can improve the game to increase the skill factor. And i agree with you that high rating wow arena requires skill, but the questions is; how can it require even more skill?
Darkfall AND Mount&Blade (but m&b is singleplayer)
they should totally add a skill that does something like this: does 1 damage for X seconds where X is your post count on the official forums.
would be awesome gag skill.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I'm gonna stick my neck out and actually defend WoW by telling you to go and win some high ranked PvP arena matches without skill.
/agree
Darkfall AND Mount&Blade (but m&b is singleplayer)
I'm currently playing DF and played M&B in the past. I would certainly agree with you.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Poker requires skill but it doesn't mean there isn't a lot of luck involved.
It should some luck, some the character and gear, some skill.
What percentage of each in those three well THAT takes a lot of fine tuning and when it is right is mostly opinion.
I am not sure how much of each but I will saying right now there isn't enough skill involved and auto aiming isn't helping.
They should add skill to mmos...but they won't. People aren't going to play a game all day every day when they realize they suck at it. MMO's now days are about coming up with ways for people to advance their character...for what reason? Just to advance their character. It's pretty lame. MMO's really don't need to take this route. Their could be goals to strive for that are not advancing a character. Darkfall and Eve have the right idea, too bad the games just weren't all that fun to play. I guess i just don't like mmos and don't play them. Would be fun to play something that was as fun as the MUDs were back in the day...
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Could it be that companies who try to implement more skill in MMO gameplay are starting at the wrong end?
Take manual aim for example; it's always a rpg style used as a foundation, and then aiming is added on top.
If they were to take a starting off point from games like Battlefield and then evolve it into a MMO, then perhaps it wouldn't feel so.... clunky.
I might be completely wrong here with all technocal limitations which I am unaware off. But just a thought I had.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
I have always said that if they just make aoe spells/weapons really aoe. And let friendly fire happen that would add a lot to mmo's. So the next time the fighters go rushing into battle and some one casts a fireball well everyone dies.
You shoot an arrow, make sure that your friends are out of the way. Or how about not letting people walk right through someone else on the battlefield. Simple mechanics can go a long way.
Nearly every new single player RPG is using either a more twitch based system (you manually control one character and have the ability to dodge, link combos, etc while if you have other party members the AI takes over) or a more tactical system (tile based games like Fire Emblem). Hotkey mashing, autoattacking, and auto targeting are becoming things of the past. Too bad MMO developers aren't making any more efforts to keep combat more interesting. While there are definitely technical limitations of bringing a combat style like that to MMOs, I think it's still feasible and some of the newer games in 2010 seem to be trying to make a decent effort. Currently most of the "skill" required in MMOs is just a knowledge of the game (what to do in what situation as with WoW Arenas) and basic team dynamics. No other skills like precision and dexterity come into play (okay, technically you could be faster at mashing those hotkeys and react faster on things like healing, dispelling, etc, but I'm willing to bet someone who has quick reflexes isn't going to that much better than someone with slow reflexes with equal knowledge and time investment in current MMOs like WoW).
Take a look at games like Global Agenda, All Points Bulletin, and Planetside 2 for upcoming games with more skill oriented combat systems. Apparently Blade and Soul and The Secret World might also have a more skill oriented combat system too.
Darkfall has full friendly fire and player collision detection.
Aventurine-hater since December 5, 2009
I like Computer Roleplaying Games.
I like First Person Shooters.
if you add enough "player skill" to an RPG, you end up with an FPS.
If you ad enough character progression to an FPS you end up with an RPG.
Why not have both kinds of games?
Yes, there needs to be an FPSMMORPG
@ Ihmotepp
if you add enough "player skill" to an RPG, you end up with an FPS.
If you ad enough character progression to an FPS you end up with an RPG.
Why not have both kinds of games?
Why not produce a full-fledged RPG (MMO) complete with story and immersion etc, but have the combat be styled more like a FPS? I can't think of a single reason why this wouldn't be possible, perhaps not ideal, but possible yes. (More on why this wouldn't be entirely possible below)
@ ;Hansen88a
Everywhere people complain that there is no skill in these games, most of all WoW. It's just keyboard hotkeys, randomness and auto-hit.
Keyboard hotkeys are a part of skill- it's part of making your avatar a more complete extension of yourself. Randomness should always be a factor- it's part of making combat less predictable, and involves on-the-fly decisions. Auto-hit I'll touch on a little lower.
Well my question is; What do you add or remove so that skills matter in these type of MMORPG games?
Suggestion 1: Remove auto-hit, and you aim some of your spells and hits by yourself with a aim like CS. Where you hit matters, hitting head gives like 10% more dmg, rest of body like 5%.
Auto-hit isn't bad. It's more preference than anything else. People who like FPS style play will whine that they can't get 'boom headshot's and counter-complain that people who are lesser skilled shouldn't have any business having 'guaranteed' hits on them.
From a technical standpoint, auto-hit is a godsend. For server-client interactions it's a simple there-back info feed. To calculate placement and at what angle you strike an opponent involves at least 3x as many server-client relays (hello lag) but most importantly it involves *SERVER CALCULATIONS* which is the thing above all else you want to keep to an absolute minimum.
Auto-hit is here to stay where MMO (massively multiplayer online) is concerned. Until every household worldwide is rigged with broadband and AlienWare, auto-hit will be a game mechanic in play from a technical standpoint. I understand the suggestion, but it's not one worth dreaming about. Classic MOFPS games have small maps, pre-determined (max) players in order to optimize interaction time- something the MMO industry needs to at all costs avoid.
Suggestion 2: Add some basics like, jumping backwards or ducking will avoid the opponents attack, meaning you have to time it. But these type of spells should have a few minutes cooldown.
Aion immediately comes to mind. With a previously mentioned auto-hit mechanic, they do a great job involving movement, allowing for a more 'dynamic' combat scheme. Whichever direction key you hit last (up down side) determines your speed, offensive and defensive values. However, it still works on a standard hit-table and incorporates randomness in lieu of active player dictation.
Suggestion 3: Remove all % factors. Like critical hit, miss %, dodge %, hit %, parry % and so on. Add firm numbers and dont base the system on luck.
Please don't. For two reasons:
1. As previously mentioned, the random factors provide reaction-based skill. If you and I cross paths and there is no randomness involved, the outcome will always be determined by a simple summation of: whoever is more powerful, whoever draws first blood. If your optimal output is 100 and mine is 110, you run with 1100hp and I with 1000hp... whoever draws first blood wins based on power ratings.
By allowing random misses or double-damage hits (to name just 2 of possible infinite modifiers), you don't guarantee a like battle but maybe once every 10000 meetings (factorials, yay!), dependant on your system.
2. The emphasis on %-based systems involves another form of skill that is often neglected when running a skill tally: preperation. Allowing individuals to customize their talents, gear, abilities etc allows players to prepare for battle. I can think of nothing more plain than removing a system that incorporates both internal conflict dynamics and external conflict preperation.
Do you know any other game, or have any ideas yourself how to add more skills in these type of games?
Glad you asked.
1. Remove the high, inflated, importance of gear that currently plauges the market. Increasing my total combattant value by over 30% because I'm a simple tier higher than someone is grossly ruining the combat experience. If, among like-level toons, the absolute worst gear imaginable was 90% of what the absolute best gear possible is, then I think we're getting somewhere in terms of gear balancing. It should be *a* factor, but not *the* factor. A 90:100 ratio would basically be giving the 100 'first blood' advantage, that's it. A system like this I find balanced.
2. Game devs need to realize that skill is twofold: micro and macro. Micro skill is twitch, attention to detail, skill. Being able to Mez at just the right time, being able to Blind right after a trinket but before they Deathcoil. Macro skill is a battlefield view and understanding of placement, how this one little skirmish affects and is affected by a larger battle. Part of macro is being able to properly use 'cooldowns' but this is still internalized to the in-your-face combat. I think more can be done with how cooldown abilities are used, but moreso how a single skirmish influences and is influenced by the world at large, surrounding baddies, placement (high ground, chokepoint etc) amongst other things.
Having combat be balanced between the two concepts would allow a very, very fresh, deep, and rewarding combat experience. Furthermore, people who are great at mashing their buttons would have to compete with someone who has a great overall combat understanding, rather than shoebox'ing the combat play into 1 dimensional play (hi Arena!).
3. Customization of abilities. Being able to add or remove affects of a certain ability with varying degrees of freedom (slowing element, stunning element, de/buffing element, d/hot element etc), or multiple affects on a single ability, would be wonderful. Also, and this might prove a nightmare to keep balanced, but allow the creation of abilities using a template that uses a weight system for cost : cast/instant : instant/projectile/melee : affects (mentioned above) : output
Being able to use Fireball, Waterbolt as base abilities, with a super-awesome-padawan-quest that leads me to creating my very own Dustbolt where I get to select how long I want my cast time to be, what affects I want it to have, how much of a cooldown I'm willing to put on it, etc and out pops a cost value associated with my parameters..... WOW! Imagine the depth of combat in a game like this!
Edit: can't seem to avoid spelling and formatting mistakes!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter