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Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Darkfall Travelogues!
A game that has many depthful "build" mechanics and doesn't rely on "destroy" mechanics is a good starting point. Ultima Online, SWG (pre nge), ATITD, Second Life are all good examples. Having a small in scope build system/mechanic doesn't a sandbox make. It has to have depth. Compare the scope and detail of the crafting system in SWG (pre nge) to WoW's, LOTRO's or AoC's and you have an example of the difference.
The short of it, freedom of choice, emphasis on nonlinear open worlds that you become a part of and live in, instead of linear worlds with slim options you just play through.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
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"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I really hate cliches. Do you guys get medals for saying sandbox and theme park? How is mission running not theme park?
Here is my point. EvE is a game whose greatest strength is the economy. WoW is a game whose greatest strength is getting everyone involved. That's it. No made up cliches. Just different type games.
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
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Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Would you like to Report SignusM as a Murderer?
Y / N?
Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
Maybe your concept works, but the implementation by current game fails?
Which of the current sandbox games allows effective endgame play for new comers? EvE? come on.
Until you skill up, or level up (which is the same thing), you are just working in progression. Until you are high enough, close enough to the higher tier, you are just cannon fodder in the end game. The progression can be very obvious in the form of levelling up and getting epic gear in purpose names, or slowly building up skills and making your better ship and guns/devices ... its just a description label in terms of difference. It still the same old, same old progression. You want to be level 21 in character? Or level 13 in swords, level 18 in heavy armor, level 12 in dodge, level 18 with bows ...? You want a summary index or an array of digits?
Face of Mankind
Basically players are expected to do just about everything...havent played but did a little reading on it.
Make choices, every action has a reaction type thing...carve out your world how you want.......sounds pretty damn sandbox-esque
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
1) False: In Eve 20 new players in fleet can fly together on newbie ships in 0.0 space and destroy npg ships for money, explore or kill other players small ships. There are videos on youtube of newbie ships used in mass to destroy the transport ships.
2) In WOW you can level up only with mobs and quest. In Eve you can be a great miner without a quest and without a combat skill (only defensive and drone skills needed).. and you can be a crafter without leave a station. In Wow the strenght is the Level. In EVE is the Corp.
3) Have you ever seen the Eve economy complexity?
PS: sorry for my english.
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Would you like to Report SignusM as a Murderer?
Y / N?
Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
Maybe your concept works, but the implementation by current game fails?
Which of the current sandbox games allows effective endgame play for new comers? EvE? come on.
Until you skill up, or level up (which is the same thing), you are just working in progression. Until you are high enough, close enough to the higher tier, you are just cannon fodder in the end game. The progression can be very obvious in the form of levelling up and getting epic gear in purpose names, or slowly building up skills and making your better ship and guns/devices ... its just a description label in terms of difference. It still the same old, same old progression. You want to be level 21 in character? Or level 13 in swords, level 18 in heavy armor, level 12 in dodge, level 18 with bows ...? You want a summary index or an array of digits?
At least in Eve I can be cannon fodder right out of character creation. When I played FFXI on a trial account, I couldn't even party with my friend because I was completely useless.
In my sandbox (I don't play Eve because I find the gameplay boring), a new player could actually be somewhat useful. I used to play Monster Hunter online with the ps2 and even if I didn't have awesome gear, I could still do damage and get the drops from the monsters. It's not that a themepark can't be set up like this, I just don't know of any, besides City of Heroes that has a system that allows low-levels and high-levels to party together where they both get experience points.
Character's in an MMORPG don't have to be defined by their level or levels, that's just a convention that is widely used. This goes back to how do you define an mmorpg in the first place. I just finished the main story missions in Red Faction: Guerilla; most people would consider this an action game, as do I, but it also has rpg elements too such as character progression in the form of acqurining new items, and it's got a mostly open world environment where I can just go around blowing stuff up (which gets me currency to purchase upgrades), or drive around and complete side quests.
Instead of defining a character by a level, perhaps define them by how much they own. It's really just a matter of convention and semantics. I could ramble on and on about my ideas for my perfect game, but then it'd be much more of a mess to read.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Would you like to Report SignusM as a Murderer?
Y / N?
Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
So Sandbox has nothing BEFORE end level?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Chrisel, I said ALWAYS, which would preclude the possibility of it ever having a "before end-game." In other words, it wouldn't.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Sandbox == MMO without quests but enough tools for the players to create their own fun.
Second Life
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I really like the description people are giving here on Eve... Sounds VERY appealing!
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
You know what I hate? People who spin-doctor WoW's features to sound similar to sandbox games, in order to discredit a legitimate categorization of sandbox and theme park. Since when are categories "cliches"? There's a difference, whether you like it or not.
You want a blow-by-blow rebuttal? You've got one.
That's incorrect. First of all, my overall point was that the game itself doesn't stop you from entering 0.0 space, which is a fact. Yes, NPC enemies will attack you, but that can easily be avoided and fled from with some basic gameplay principles in mind warping away, for example.
And yes, many 0.0 alliances will attack you... but not all. Some of them have peace treaties with smaller corporations (or non-enemy player ships in general) to travel through and conduct business safely within their space, free of being destroyed by patrols.
OH MY GOD. IF YOU'RE NEW, YOU MIGHT HAVE ASK AROUND AND TALK TO AN ALLIANCE LEADER TO VISIT 0.0 SPACE IN RELATIVE SAFELY! TALKING?! WHAT'S THAT?! Guess what? In WoW, you can talk until you're blue in the face, but you're not getting to any of the higher-level areas, let alone safely.
This is ridiculous. There's no limit to the potential skill training in EVE, and the possible combinations are mind-boggling. No one has ever reached the cap. And the usefulness of your SP are limited by which ship you're in, of which there is a very large selection. WoW has a level cap and ten classes; this is fact. All WoW classes are combat-based, unlike EVE ships, of which there are a vast variety.
This is complete nonsense. You can mine expensive ore in a starter ship. All you have to do is fly to the asteroid field.
You're actually basing half of your entire argument here on being completely new, by the way. I'm not JUST talking about what new players can do. Older, better skilled and equipped players count, too. We're talking about freedom of play here, not that new players can do anything right on Day 1.
Yeah bro, you can totally make a career out of gathering or crafting alone in World of Warcraft, even though you have to level up your character through combat to advance your gathering skill. In EVE, you can do whatever you damned well please as you gain skill in gathering or crafting.
And WoW doesn't have "gatherer guilds." It's a much simpler system in that game, you load up an add-on and go from node to node collecting stuff. There's far more logistics, exploration and specific equipment involved in EVE gathering, and also a sense of risk. And EVE "crafting" is worlds more complex than anything in WoW.
Also in WoW, you can't make a living doing PvP. You have to support it with other PvE activities, at least last I checked you did (like getting epics from raids and gathering/crafting). In EVE, you can make your ENTIRE LIVING being a pirate. Your fun, your money, new people you meet, everything can literally come from piracy. On a PvP server, you can sort of be like an EVE pirate... but not really. All you do is kill people. You can't score an awesome ship or a load of precious cargo, or hurt your enemy by podding them. That kind of takes away from the experience.
Honestly, comparing the different roles people can play in EVE to the "roles" available in WoW is ridiculous. Your role in WoW is to be a combat character, and gather and craft on the side, if you want. Everything is raid-centric. Don't try to tell me it isn't.
How many threads are there on the WoW server forums recruiting for anything other than a raiding guild, unless it's an RP guild? That's right: None.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Would you like to Report SignusM as a Murderer?
Y / N?
Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
So Sandbox has nothing BEFORE end level?
I'd say a sandbox doesn't focus on "end level". Good sandbox games, like Ultima Online (which didn't have levels) don't ever ask the question "what do we do when you get to the "end". There is no end. There's just living in the world and doing. That may be a foreign concept to most MMO gamers these days b/c they didn't get to experience it in those early games. In those games, the devs didn't write a story to tell you what to do or where to go. They made systems/mechanics that allowed the players to decide those things.
The vast majority of people that get into a game like WoW or Lotro through talking with people and reading up on the game's systems/mechanics start climbing the level treadmill to get to cap so they can raid. Quest and grinding mobs for exp is a means to that end.
In a good sandbox, those people aren't worried about an endgame. They begin gather materials through hunting or harvesting to improve their lot in that world. They get those things to build themselves a house. They hunt animals to get leather to make armor or other items to sell. I think a good sandbox gives you more goals to choose from like building your own boat, or house, or castle, or becoming the head of a successful trade empire. They offer these options as opposed to leveling or skilling up to only (and I say only because, well those are your only choices) go do raids or PvP, which those two are the focus of most games today.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Urge to kill rising... rising... RISING!
Would you like to Report SignusM as a Murderer?
Y / N?
Nah, not this time. ;-)
To me a themepark game has a progression to end-game, whereas a sandbox is always end-game.
Maybe your concept works, but the implementation by current game fails?
Which of the current sandbox games allows effective endgame play for new comers? EvE? come on.
Until you skill up, or level up (which is the same thing), you are just working in progression. Until you are high enough, close enough to the higher tier, you are just cannon fodder in the end game. The progression can be very obvious in the form of levelling up and getting epic gear in purpose names, or slowly building up skills and making your better ship and guns/devices ... its just a description label in terms of difference. It still the same old, same old progression. You want to be level 21 in character? Or level 13 in swords, level 18 in heavy armor, level 12 in dodge, level 18 with bows ...? You want a summary index or an array of digits?
At least in Eve I can be cannon fodder right out of character creation. When I played FFXI on a trial account, I couldn't even party with my friend because I was completely useless.
In my sandbox (I don't play Eve because I find the gameplay boring), a new player could actually be somewhat useful. I used to play Monster Hunter online with the ps2 and even if I didn't have awesome gear, I could still do damage and get the drops from the monsters. It's not that a themepark can't be set up like this, I just don't know of any, besides City of Heroes that has a system that allows low-levels and high-levels to party together where they both get experience points.
Character's in an MMORPG don't have to be defined by their level or levels, that's just a convention that is widely used. This goes back to how do you define an mmorpg in the first place. I just finished the main story missions in Red Faction: Guerilla; most people would consider this an action game, as do I, but it also has rpg elements too such as character progression in the form of acqurining new items, and it's got a mostly open world environment where I can just go around blowing stuff up (which gets me currency to purchase upgrades), or drive around and complete side quests.
Instead of defining a character by a level, perhaps define them by how much they own. It's really just a matter of convention and semantics. I could ramble on and on about my ideas for my perfect game, but then it'd be much more of a mess to read.
This I agree, in WoW combat is mainly level driven. That will be about the same for pretentiously level-less games like darkfall, as you need minimal skill levels (which is just disaggregates of character levels) to deliver a punch. If I still remember EvE correctly, I cannot fly big ships as a day 1 noob, and the devices I can carry are very limited. I will be totally useless in delivering damage.
When it comes to crafting, both games allows some leeway. Currently in WoW you can pretty much harvest without worries about your character level just need harvesting skills, and levelling harvesting skills is trivial. Hit a certain ore and you level up faster than you need, if you want any sizable amount of that ore for crafting. Same for fishing, you need fish to level up cooking, and more fishing that you need to level up fishing.
There are many people who play the WoW economy to get rich. They use add ons like auctioneer.
WoW doesn't really start until you hit max level, 80 at the moment. After that, there is no leveling and PvP is on a more level playing field.
You don't have to raid at 80, many don't. Many pvp in BGs, arenas or world pvp.
EDIT: and you can go anywhere in WoW at 80. You are not barred from any zone.
I will say that Eve is more sand-boxy than WoW, however WoW at 80 is pretty sandboxy too.
Second Life on the other hand, has little in common with WoW. SL is a perfect sand box.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
(Trying to avoid the pyramid of scrolling)
In Eve a day 1 noob wouldn't be able to do that much damage, but athey should be able to use a frigate that has bonuses to electronic warfare and run a support role. Frigates are fragile, of course, but they are also cheap and faster than bigger ships. So it balances out, sort of. I don't think that a new character should be able to do everything a vet player can.
I think characters need to develop as a person plays them to encourage long-term player retention by giving the player something to look forward to. My biggest grief with themepark games is that if my friends out level me then I can longer get exp when I group with them forcing me to catch up or be left behind until I eventually reach max level. Also, to me, another aspect that defines a sandbox game is the viability of the character. I think in a sandbox game that there can be many different options for character development and all of them viable relative to each other. When my friend tried to get me to play FFXI a few years ago I told him that I wanted to go white mage and he told me that if I did that then I would need to level summoner, black mage, or red mage and use one of them as my secondary job or no one would even bother partying with me, which means that aside from the FFXI community being rather stuck up, that if I wanted to sub samurai It'd be a waste and might even hinder my characters chances to succeed.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Fair observation.
Yes very true, if delivering combat (tank, heal or deliver damage) is the focus, WoW is heavily level driven, and at max level, supplemented by gear and player knowledge of the fight and his classes, as well as synergy with other classes.
In a very real sense, that supports my (and other peoples') point: EVE Online doesn't really have an endgame. You can actually play the game as it was meant to be played from Day 1, without leaping onto a monorail track to reach "level 80" so you can finally play the game.
Also unlike WoW, in EVE there is no limit to your personal power. There's no level 80 w/ all epics, be in a large guild, you're done in EVE. There may be a "single most powerful ship" (dreadnaughts), but you can own many different very powerful ships with vastly different purposes, own actual property that appears in the game, control (and build and hog resources in) territory that's within the actual game world, and be part (or even leader) of a massive alliance that literally affects the playing experiences of thousands of other players, the legendary stories that get told about the game on forums like this one (trillion-ISK pyramid schemes, anyone?), and the very face of the game itself.
It's controlling your own destiny, rather than having your destiny controlled for you by a level cap and the strongest gear.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Fair observation.
WoW and sandbox should never be used in the same sentence, seriously.
It's been pointed out many times over in this thread, but you can continue to ignore the points and try to spin a game's description into something it's not. Does it detract from your gameplay by me saying WoW is a themepark style game? No? Then enjoy the game for what it is.
Also, can you have multiple free (as in, you don't pay a red cent for them) accounts in World of Warcraft? Because once you are successful enough in EVE, you essentially don't even have to pay a subscription fee. Someone else pays it for you in exchange for ISK, all in perfect compliance with the EULA.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Excelent post.
Probably the most didatic way Ive seen of explaining what many of us fail to explain in a concise and clear way.
Yes....exactly my thinking!....I just couldn't put it tnto words!
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514