I'm still reading through the posts on this thread, and I'm really enjoying the discussion.
I started playing MMO's in 1995 with The Realm, and have played pretty much all of them since then. I started playing them because I've been roleplaying since 1975 and I thought it would be awesome to step into another world. And it was!
However, I think it's high time that someone brought the "RPG" back into MMO's. Case in point, Warhammer, the game that I have been enjoying with a core group of roleplayers, just shut down the last RP server, Phoenix Throne. I tried to roleplay on the new server, but I was immediately yanked out of the "world" and into "game" due to a plethora of stupid names and people jumping up and down all over like rabbits on amphetamines. So I went back to LotRO. The gameplay isn't as much of what I would like, since I love PvP, but the immersion is my priority, and that game has it in spades.
Companies need to stop calling the game an MMORPG if they can't be arsed enough to support the RPG part.
I read some posts, but they pile up.. Ill try not to repeat what others have said.
What have made people enjoy simplistic games since the dawn of time? - Something different than everyday life - Social interaction - Challenge, ether physical or mental - A sense of accomplishment / excellence
My view of todays MMOs We have leveling games, grinding games, social games..the list goes on. What i feel that all the sub genres have in common is materialism. These games appeal to peoples greed, like a carrot on a string.
And even worse, people feel superior to others becouse they have a blinking sword, fancy armor.. What i realized when playing MMOs is that i dont really enjoy all the time i put in to get that sword. And when i have it, theres a better sword that looks awesome. If i put in more time..
So where am i going with this? If you use countless hours of youre life doing something you dont really enjoy, and paying for it. Then youre just stupid.
Prototyping I really think the entertainment industry as a whole need to rethink theyre whole idea of fun. Experiencing something over and over is usualy horribly boring. To counter that you need a fresh idea. This is the core of the problem. We see things that allready exist, and we get overly focused on it.
Theres allso the prejudice factor that seem to be etched into peoples brains. Before something new become popular it usualy get bashed half to dead. Ironicly everyone get all exited when its up for grabs.
I really dont think games need to be re-invented. As i said, its repetitive. Recycling the really good bits, perfecting it, and adding something new. Thats what id like to see. Reinventing the wheel is fine, but unless you know how to counter gravity i think youre stuck.
The magical hook Nowadays the items we buy in the store are usualy made to break. At some point we need something new, expensive. And its usualy the same as the old, just slightly different.
For games i feel this is a big problem. They spend millions on making a game, and make everything from scratch. Its stupid, why not add hooks?
Hooks are useful, you can hang stuff on them. If you want to hang something else you replace the old thing on the hook.
My point is that someone create something awesome, like a computer program. Then they discard it when it served its purpuse. If they added a hook, they could reuse at least parts of it. Its prolly something beeing used all the time, but considering how timeconsuming and expensive the games have become, i dont think its used enough.
User content The players in a game is a pretty powerful resource. Some people have the skills to create new content. I remeber when Half-Life came out, they had the WorldCraft editor that the players could use to mod the game. Theres been many games since, that allow the users to create something, even if its just a toony character that looks ridiculous.
Ill really like to someone make a game that let the community create something. Iam not talking about pre-created items in a crafting system. Imagine if you were handed a hammer and showel and a voice says "If you follow these rules, you can build a house. However youd like". Id build a nice house, and defend it with my showel.
This type of creating would take a game to a new level. Imagine a clan/guild that have theyre own city. They enforce the law, wich they made. I think the feeling youd get if you walked into that city, it would be alot better than a pre-created town filled with npcs.
With binding contracts between npcs, players and players. There could be real trading and industry.
The nice thing about involving the community is that alot of people get exactly what they want. And the game company just have to set the limits, without doing much work.
End Id like to see proper rewards and greater penalties and risks. The whole grindfest concept need to go. Real life player skills and ingenuity should be what games are about. Not how many bling-blings you have and that you wasted the last years of youre life.
Some realism is allso lacking. When i shoot someone in the head, they should die. And they should not come running back 5 minutes later.
Lastly, the industry wont try major changes as long as people pay them money. You can scream all you like, if you finance a major company, you are to blame. "The customer is allways right".
So, i think the big gaming companies just need a good kick in the right direction.
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
All content these days is hard-coded. As imaginative and well-done as it may be, once you've been through it a few times, it gets stale. Dynamic content would be a welcome addition to the genre. Give the players the tools to create content. Be it, town governance as previously mentioned, or the ability to create dynamic dungeon encounters.
The collective creativity of the players will always trump that of the developers...there are simply more of us.
Create a persistent world and let the collective creativity of your playerbase to run rampant. Not only are you going to save a load in developing expansions, but you are guaranteeing that the playerbase shapes the world to be one that they will always enjoy. If they find something lacking...they have the tools to change it.
"Yep (well successful game, not games). Though if you don't get why, I doubt any further clarification would do you any good. However, for everyone else out there: when a single product dominates a market so that no other product can get a toehold in... yes that does stifle the market."
Oh please. I am a company with the means to develop something. I am a venture capitalist, whatever. Before EQ, do I have any interest in a big investment in MMOs? After EQ is a success, yes now it doesn't look so stupid. Hmm, maybe Blizzard looked at it this way? Who knows? Now after WOW...hey there's big money, POSSIBLY. So maybe its EASIER now?
Your comment only makes sense for a monopoly/oligopoly, where prevention of competition is real. Let's see, before EQ how many new MMOs were there in the previous 5 years? OH,,, one maybe, UO? After EQ, many, and many had some success like DAOC. And after WOW...how many MMOs on the game board? Sure a lot of junk. A lot of disappointments. But that's how it works and it shows people are trying.
And now for more opinion that will gall you...my pick for the most important MMO release of the next year.
STO? Nope. I would like it to be but my money is on the people with resources and a history of success.
Cataclysm. Sorry if that ruins your day. Or maybe I am not sorry. A lot hangs on what innovation comes with this expansion. It could be a big flop, but whatever happens it will be the biggest news of next year.
Or as I say, maybe someone in a garage will make the next killer MMO! Hey, I can dream too.
"...we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO...
"Just take a minute and consider the possibilities that this might open up. How, for example, would someone who had never head of the concept of instancing decide to tackle their content? How would people unfamiliar with raiding and gear grinding handle the concept of an endgame? The possibilities are endless.
"This, my friends, could lead not to the innovation that so many of us have been begging for, but instead to the sense and feeling of true invention that captured so many people's imaginations during the birth of the genre."
I completely disagree. Willful isolation and ignorance is never the correct course of action, it creates a stagnant pool of ideas. In order to fully understand why we have done what we've done, we must examine it carefully and formulate probable solutions from what we know, not from what we don't know.
When we need to design something new, we don't go into a trance-like meditative state and hope the muse strikes in time for the deadline. No, we search for what has been done, why it has been done, how it could be done differently, and how we can improve upon the old formulas if we get no new plausible concepts. It is a very scientific process.
Unfortunately, this process is stripped from game development as people like Bobby Kotick attempt to keep the status quo and live off the fat of the soon-to-be-immobile industry. Complacency leads to stagnancy. We as developers are complacent with our jobs because we're paid to make games, not to innovate. You see where this leads.
New ideas are formulated from old ones. In order to make any use from old ideas, one must first understand them and their nature.
If a developer told to design a massively multiplayer game has never played one, and they are cut off from the rest of the world, the end design will be something akin to the first MUDs - a coarse and unrefined prototype of the MMORPGs we have today. That's taking a step back, not forward.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Innovation stems from knowledge, not ignorance.
These big game developers need to stop trying to 'knock one out of the park' and work on a few niche games where they can take some chances. I don't think the players are a problem here, unless you are trying to get millions of subscribers to try a new MMO game concept. You will have to start off with some niche games, and those features that are successful will filter their way out into the mainstream naturally, or they will fade into game programming obscurity. There is very little innovation now, because everyone is trying to get WoW sub numbers, and they can't afford to gamble their insanely large investments.
SEED THE GAME
Some of you may remember a little game that was dead on arrival called, SEED.
SEED was slated to be a scientific/political (non-combat) game based around player cooperation to deal with a "desert island" scenario where people on a space ship were supposed to land on a far away planet that had been terraformed, but when they arrived, they found out it had not. They also had no communication with Earth, so it was up to them to find a way to survive. (the description on the wiki page is much better than my Cliffs notes.)
The developers had planned to release the game with the players stranded on a breaking down, malfunctioning ship, then let the players ultimately decide how the story and gameplay would evolve with future game development. At least this is how I remember the concept being presented. The whole thing intrigued me to no end, and I was a member of the forums and was in closed beta (read: pre-alpha). The whole project just seemed so interesting and had a ton of potential that wasn't wrapped in combat like nearly all other MMORPG games are.
Unfortunately, they didn't have the funding to pull it off, and they tried to launch the game way too early, which is something we see with a lot of indie games, and it was shut down very shortly after launch. I wish they would have preserved the game's website with all the old forums and information on it, but they took it down.
This game wouldn't have grabbed millions of players, but it had the potential to be an 'EVE' in it's own way. The point is, there are people out there with awesome ideas, but no one will give them money. The responsibility for this genre not evolving lays completely in the laps of the corporations who will only fund "sure wins" that rarely ever win. Yes, it's their money, but they are the ones killing this genre if anything truly is. It's no coincidence that the Movie industry has a lot of regurgitated movies these days too. The same people and companies who are dumbing down the movies, are doing the same thing to the games.
It's marketing 101, really. Design your product for the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR to ensure the largest market. The only problem is, that leaves a good portion of people who don't want stupid products, out in the cold. We are also a ripe market just waiting to be tapped if anyone had the balls to do so.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
On a slightly unrelated note, someone asked "Where are the MMOFPSes?" "Where are the MMORTSes?" For MMOFPSes, let me think of a few... Planetside, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate London... oh dear. It appears they have all failed! In this case, I think publishers may be quite right in being wary. Yet: Huxley is still coming, and Fallen Earth (indie-ish) does seem to have some success. Which is good news right?
I'm glad you mention FPS mmos - they're something I quite enjoy.
But in a similar vein to my earlier post...
Tabula Rasa may eventually have been a great game. I played it at release. The FPS was a breath of fresh air. It had a great atmosphere, with ships flying around and dropping mobs off, and mobs attacking cities and players able to attack and re-take said cities. TR had one of the most alive gameworlds I've ever played in.
But TR was going to be one thing and then halfway through its development cycle they decided to make a wholly new game. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that when they reached their deadline for release, the game wasn't actually finished.
TR's failure is no reflection at all on the type of mmo it tried to be.
Hellgate London... As a single player game, I enjoyed it. But I looked at the $15 a month subscription fee and the semi-mmo that would get me and immediately labelled it a rip-off. There was no way I was ever going to play the online version. I think it's like CO charging a subscription AND having an item mall. It's overpriced. Overpriced products don't sell - short of some seriously orgasmic marketing.
I never played Planetside so don't know why it bombed, but I doubt it was because it coloured outside the lines.
But Darkfall I have played. Really enjoyed the FPS again, but it was plagued by some seriously poor game design elements. FPS definitely isn't its problem.
These failures all have clearly identifiable causes and they have nothing to do with trying to be different.
These big game developers need to stop trying to 'knock one out of the park' and work on a few niche games where they can take some chances. I don't think the players are a problem here, unless you are trying to get millions of subscribers to try a new MMO game concept. You will have to start off with some niche games, and those features that are successful will filter their way out into the mainstream naturally, or they will fade into game programming obscurity. There is very little innovation now, because everyone is trying to get WoW sub numbers, and they can't afford to gamble their insanely large investments. .....
The point is, there are people out there with awesome ideas, but no one will give them money. The responsibility for this genre not evolving lays completely in the laps of the corporations who will only fund "sure wins" that rarely ever win. Yes, it's their money, but they are the ones killing this genre if anything truly is. It's no coincidence that the Movie industry has a lot of regurgitated movies these days too. The same people and companies who are dumbing down the movies, are doing the same thing to the games.
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
These big game developers need to stop trying to 'knock one out of the park' and work on a few niche games where they can take some chances. I don't think the players are a problem here, unless you are trying to get millions of subscribers to try a new MMO game concept. You will have to start off with some niche games, and those features that are successful will filter their way out into the mainstream naturally, or they will fade into game programming obscurity. There is very little innovation now, because everyone is trying to get WoW sub numbers, and they can't afford to gamble their insanely large investments. .....
The point is, there are people out there with awesome ideas, but no one will give them money. The responsibility for this genre not evolving lays completely in the laps of the corporations who will only fund "sure wins" that rarely ever win. Yes, it's their money, but they are the ones killing this genre if anything truly is. It's no coincidence that the Movie industry has a lot of regurgitated movies these days too. The same people and companies who are dumbing down the movies, are doing the same thing to the games.
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
Thanks for the reply, and I agree. I didn't know that about Icarus. I bought FE and started playing it, but exploration is a huge gaming feature for me (I learned) and the desert southwest as presented in FE was too boring to hold my interest. I wish them well in their plans to make an MMO creation platform.
Spore: I followed Spore for a long time before launch, and became interested in the methods they used to program it. Namely, the procedural generation / procedural animation which was used. That technology has the potential to really level the playing field for smaller game developers as it matures. One of the biggest expenses and time sinks in game dev is the art assets. Being able to "generate" most those assets with code rather than create them manually could save millions on a large MMO, especially when you need to populate huge game maps with natural looking terrain, flora and fauna.
Check out this indy game in development that is almost all procedurally generated. It's a real trip:
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
From the article: "...we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO... "Just take a minute and consider the possibilities that this might open up. How, for example, would someone who had never head of the concept of instancing decide to tackle their content? How would people unfamiliar with raiding and gear grinding handle the concept of an endgame? The possibilities are endless. "This, my friends, could lead not to the innovation that so many of us have been begging for, but instead to the sense and feeling of true invention that captured so many people's imaginations during the birth of the genre."
I completely disagree. Willful isolation and ignorance is never the correct course of action, it creates a stagnant pool of ideas. In order to fully understand why we have done what we've done, we must examine it carefully and formulate probable solutions from what we know, not from what we don't know.
When we need to design something new, we don't go into a trance-like meditative state and hope the muse strikes in time for the deadline. No, we search for what has been done, why it has been done, how it could be done differently, and how we can improve upon the old formulas if we get no new plausible concepts. It is a very scientific process.
Unfortunately, this process is stripped from game development as people like Bobby Kotick attempt to keep the status quo and live off the fat of the soon-to-be-immobile industry. Complacency leads to stagnancy. We as developers are complacent with our jobs because we're paid to make games, not to innovate. You see where this leads.
New ideas are formulated from old ones. In order to make any use from old ideas, one must first understand them and their nature.
If a developer told to design a massively multiplayer game has never played one, and they are cut off from the rest of the world, the end design will be something akin to the first MUDs - a coarse and unrefined prototype of the MMORPGs we have today. That's taking a step back, not forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Innovation stems from knowledge, not ignorance.
I think the idea of having an entirely new crop of developers create something novel is what we all want to see. That is to say, sometimes we do need to reinvent the wheel. Thinking stems from ignorance -ignorance is what allows a person to pursue knowledge. So in the case of games, finding potential flaws in the current model of MMORPGs and correcting them is definitely something worth doing as it leads to innovation, but it doesn't lead to invention as I think Mr. Wood was saying.
World of Warcraft is a prime example of developers innovating the current genre. They had a goal in mind: "Let's make a game that anyone can get into, and let's have it so people can share this experience easily together." The end result was an extremely popular game, but it wasn't something new.
So, while it's not necessary for a developer to have never played an MMORPG before to make something really awesome, I think it is necessary to take a step back - away from the bounds that have defined MMORPGs thus far - to do something really new.
Take the Katamari series for example. There was nothing like it before and it ended up being a big hit. There is room for a new experience in MMORP gaming, the question is: Who is going to step up and make it?
The idea that the entire MMORPG genre need to be rebooted is a frivolous idea at best. The entire MMORPG genre has been to one type of player (ie. those of us who enjoy mindless quests and grind), with the few exceptions (Ex. Eve Online, Sims Online, Second Life etc.). Now in order for those of us who are rather sick of the norm, there needs to be change in how MMORPG's are designed.
Instead of being designed to the majority, which in the corporate mind generates money, design the game to fit the individual. If the individual enjoys what he/she sees then and only then will they invest both time and money into a game. The corporate mindset as it is now only sees that it does not necessarily matter what the individual experiences, but rather what the majority experiences. If the majority is feeling happy then in turn the majority will stay, but this is clearly wrong. If the majority is happy, but the individual lacks an experiences he himself enjoys by himself then their is no reason to stay after they lose their initial euforia.
Example you are at a party everyone is enjoying themselves, but then you come to the realization that you are no longer necessary to the party and are being ignored, well then you leave, nobody notices or cares. It is only afterwards that you realise you have started a chain reaction your friend which you invited over noticed you leave, and this in turn causes him and everyone else to leave around the same time. The party sucks its only the people who make it fun. (unless of course it is rather early and your just a jackass and a loner)
Just like sheep if we no longer feel on an individual scale that we are happy we will follow suit and leave. In order to keep the sheep keep it happy or at least make it think other sheep are there.
How do you make a game to fit the individual, well now that is hard, and this could also be why corporate dislikes the idea, because it takes money and a shit load of time. Players need a presence among their peers, in order to accomplish this each individual therefore must be unique (ie. player created objects, avatars weapons). When a player walks into a room filled with noobs they will ask questions about how they did something because nobody else has done it. In a sense the creation of an MMORPG is the creation of an entirely new world through physics, chemistry, and biology, and must adjust dramatically over time just like the four seasons (without the global warming).
The idea that the entire MMORPG genre need to be rebooted is a frivolous idea at best. The entire MMORPG genre has been to one type of player (ie. those of us who enjoy mindless quests and grind), with the few exceptions (Ex. Eve Online, Sims Online, Second Life etc.). Now in order for those of us who are rather sick of the norm, there needs to be change in how MMORPG's are designed.
Instead of being designed to the majority, which in the corporate mind generates money, design the game to fit the individual. If the individual enjoys what he/she sees then and only then will they invest both time and money into a game. The corporate mindset as it is now only sees that it does not necessarily matter what the individual experiences, but rather what the majority experiences. If the majority is feeling happy then in turn the majority will stay, but this is clearly wrong. If the majority is happy, but the individual lacks an experiences he himself enjoys by himself then their is no reason to stay after they lose their initial euforia. Example you are at a party everyone is enjoying themselves, but then you come to the realization that you are no longer necessary to the party and are being ignored, well then you leave, nobody notices or cares. It is only afterwards that you realize you have started a chain reaction your friend which you invited over noticed you leave, and this in turn causes him and everyone else to leave around the same time. The party sucks its only the people who make it fun. (unless of course it is rather early and your just a jackass and a loner) Just like sheep if we no longer feel on an individual scale that we are happy we will follow suit and leave. In order to keep the sheep keep it happy or at least make it think other sheep are there.
How do you make a game to fit the individual, well now that is hard, and this could also be why corporate dislikes the idea, because it takes money and a shit load of time. Players need a presence among their peers, in order to accomplish this each individual therefore must be unique (ie. player created objects, avatars weapons). When a player walks into a room filled with noobs they will ask questions about how they did something because nobody else has done it. In a sense the creation of an MMORPG is the creation of an entirely new world through physics, chemistry, and biology, and must adjust dramatically over time just like the four seasons (without the global warming).
Sandbox games like pre-NGE SWG handled this by giving us many options and combinations of options so that not only could we build a fairly unique character, but we could also forge our own story through the game, however we wanted to express and experience it. That was gameplay from an individual level. Some people chose to play the hero roles, but many people did not. Some just wanted to explore or create, some wanted to be social or political.
As broken as SWG was, it was enough of a sandbox to hand us the tools to do this, and get out of our way, whether on purpose or accident. We didn't feel like we were playing a game. We felt like we were projecting ourselves into a virtual world, and most of the time the real world fell away through immersion. I'm not saying SWG was the end-all be-all of games. I'm saying that we have moved away from creating deep, diverse game worlds, and have literally thrown everyone into Disneyland expecting them to remain entertained when they ride the same or similar rides over and over again for months on end.
These combat theme parks leave out the those people who enjoy things other than combat, and you end up with a game full of the same aggressive people, and no artists, scientists, musicians, etc. This is one of the reasons they are boring for me, and they are becoming boring to more and more people as time goes on. Once you've spent a couple years playing theme-parks, they are all the same. SEED intrigued me because it was a completely different take on MMO play. I would have liked to have seen how that game evolved had it been properly funded.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't think MMOs are in a decline, consider this ask any person who's got a character on any grind game thats over level 50 (50% to end game) which they like more console games or MMOs. I'm confident they'll say MMO. I know personally whenim on anything but an MMO, i feel like im completely wasting my time, id rather read a book... So what im getting at is, MMos will never die the genre is now a foundation for newer things to come.
Personally, Ive found that games that don't force level grinds just so you can get to the next area or match your friends, to be much more interesting.
Take Wurm online for instance its a small game mostly due to a lack of dev interest in getting to big, also its limited funding however its a game with little to no developer made content, you have forests deserts and oceans things you'd find on any world, and the players make the world amazing and interesting. Lets consider that on wow games your gonna dungeon crawl and fight monsters and so on, but why? why are you doing thous things as am, player i mean, its certainly not for the flavor text your didn't read, no its to grind to the next level so you can get a moment of breath before moving on to the next grind, id like to see my effort reflected in the world im entering, if i attack and kill 50 worgs they better be dead for awhile because how can 50 worgs be born (spawn) in one patch of woods ever few seconds?
Take mortal online for instance, no levels just skills, now ill admit fresh landed and thous who have had time to train up they're skillz are on two different levels, the game is so much more interesting when you can log in, give it a few hours not months, and your already a big help to your friends or guild.I mean even if i cant swing the best sword as fast or often i can still toss around a few heals that do sway a battle in our favor.
Honest, I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people. How can it be so interesting when you can barely make an impact on the world. In real life, most anything you do effects the people around you, how is it ok for us all to have exactly the same experience. I say death to the single player games posing as MMOs.
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
"Yep (well successful game, not games). Though if you don't get why, I doubt any further clarification would do you any good. However, for everyone else out there: when a single product dominates a market so that no other product can get a toehold in... yes that does stifle the market." Oh please. I am a company with the means to develop something. I am a venture capitalist, whatever. Before EQ, do I have any interest in a big investment in MMOs? After EQ is a success, yes now it doesn't look so stupid. Hmm, maybe Blizzard looked at it this way? Who knows? Now after WOW...hey there's big money, POSSIBLY. So maybe its EASIER now? Your comment only makes sense for a monopoly/oligopoly, where prevention of competition is real. Let's see, before EQ how many new MMOs were there in the previous 5 years? OH,,, one maybe, UO? After EQ, many, and many had some success like DAOC. And after WOW...how many MMOs on the game board? Sure a lot of junk. A lot of disappointments. But that's how it works and it shows people are trying. And now for more opinion that will gall you...my pick for the most important MMO release of the next year. STO? Nope. I would like it to be but my money is on the people with resources and a history of success. Cataclysm. Sorry if that ruins your day. Or maybe I am not sorry. A lot hangs on what innovation comes with this expansion. It could be a big flop, but whatever happens it will be the biggest news of next year. Or as I say, maybe someone in a garage will make the next killer MMO! Hey, I can dream too.
Meridian 59, The Realm, UO, Lineage, just to name a few. There were quite a few more if you put the small effort in to looking them up.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by MindTrigger Sandbox games like pre-NGE SWG handled this by giving us many options and combinations of options so that not only could we build a fairly unique character, but we could also forge our own story through the game, however we wanted to express and experience it. That was gameplay from an individual level. Some people chose to play the hero roles, but many people did not. Some just wanted to explore or create, some wanted to be social or political. As broken as SWG was, it was enough of a sandbox to hand us the tools to do this, and get out of our way, whether on purpose or accident. We didn't feel like we were playing a game. We felt like we were projecting ourselves into a virtual world, and most of the time the real world fell away through immersion. I'm not saying SWG was the end-all be-all of games. I'm saying that we have moved away from creating deep, diverse game worlds, and have literally thrown everyone into Disneyland expecting them to remain entertained when they ride the same or similar rides over and over again for months on end.
I don't want to turn this great thread into a crazy SWG/NGE discussion, but this post reminded me of one of those "aha" moments I've had with this genre.
It was post NGE change, and the uproar was still very heated. There was this long thread on their forums about the Scout profession, which had been dropped. Folks were sharing their stories about hunting and camping with friends, capturing great screenshots, and the fun RP they experienced with the profession (while also ranting/raving about its demise).
A dev was dropping little posts in the discussion, and at one point, in an seemingly snarky tone, asked how folks could actually have "fun" doing virtual camping. The post caused an immediate firestorm.
For me, though, it was an "aha" moment. One that, now, seems to reflect more and more of the industry (and not just the NGE developers). That dev specifically, and most of that team probably, had a VERY DIFFERENT "philosophy" regarding what is "fun" and what mmo's should do...at least, different from what the players of THAT game had. The change may even have been as benign as going from "do what ever makes you happy" to "everybody likes adventures"...but, it was a change none the less. Changes in "philosophy" make a much bigger impact than most expect, because the change never stops at one place. It permeates the entire game.
Recently, I followed a game that planned to be single-player with an innovative online component. Over two years, the philosophy changed from that to a game that was equal in single and multiplayer modes, to, finally, an mmo that needs subscription fees, with an unequal single player experience that is designed more as a preview.
As you can imagine, the change in philosophy over those two years rubbed A LOT of players the wrong way, lead to a lot of lost fans, and hurt the final product (thanks to the mish-mash of designs that got cobbled together from the different time periods of the games development life).
Point being: The developers did more damage by changing their ideas on WHAT they wanted their game to be than if they had just stuck it out with what they originally envisioned. AND, the issue was compounded by the fact that the NEW philosophy was even FURTHER away from what the players philosophy was. That's poor execution...no matter what FIELD you are in.
I could go on...but no need to blather. Thanks for the reminder of that "aha" moment....its something I hadn't thought about in a while, and its fitting that this thread would bring it back up.
Comic books have had thier ups and downs in industry. In 1989, comics got a boost of attention because the first "Batman" movie came out. This set off chains of reactions to the whole of the comic industry. New publishers popped up along with tons of new writers and artists. Were they any good? Some were great while others were shlock dealers. The way comics were reguarded changed, Marvel went public with its stock and more movies were commissioned. You would think it was a good period for comics, right?
By the time that "Batman and Robin" the forth film bombed at the box office and was an insult to comic fans the comic industry was killing itself. Greedy publishers were more into marketing Multi-covers of the same issues with thin stories and lower and lower panel count. Some books even released more than one issue per month to follow season trends of buyers. The industry standards suffered and quality of product dropped. A comic could be sold merrily on its cover rather than being of any deep significance. Was it all bleak? No, there were a few gems among the shlock but they were very few.
This period in comic industry is knows as the "Speculator Era". Folks were not reading books as often as they were buying them as investments. This trend encouraged publisher to get the comics out as fast and often as possible reguardless of content. Marvel and DC Comics were guilty but other publishers didn't help as some books amounted to artists making intersting "splash pages" after "splash pages" with little connection of story. A splash page is a one pic panel used to set a stage of a story.
Publishers went bankrupt in the mid-90's as customers quit buying this shlock. Have the practices stopped? Mostly, but a few still use these practices to maximize sales to the Hard Core comic fans.
I believe the MMO genere is in a type of "Speculator Era" with the success of WOW like the first "Batman" movie. What will come of this period of the genere of poor low quality games rushed to market before they are playable? The MMO genere as a whole will be found to be un-viable as a whole at some point and development and funding will dry up. It will be left with only a few companies supporting a handful of popular games with little entry. IP holders will ignore pitchmen in mass and find new ways to captialize on thier franchies without as high an investment. If MMO's continue the current trend, investors will become wise and pass on such projects.
Can this direction change? Sure, but it takes educated investors willing to take a chance. It takes folks willing to sacrifice investment time for a good product. It will also take a product to be released that is on par in quality to WOW. A product that is designed with long term goals and not "get rich quick" box sales marketing. It will take a dev team that is professional and dedicated to making that product the best they have ever done. If a member slacks or doesn't take the product seriously, transfer or fired. "Divas are left at the door."
Its just a game, right? Is 11 million subscriptions just a game to a investor?
These big game developers need to stop trying to 'knock one out of the park' and work on a few niche games where they can take some chances. I don't think the players are a problem here, unless you are trying to get millions of subscribers to try a new MMO game concept. You will have to start off with some niche games, and those features that are successful will filter their way out into the mainstream naturally, or they will fade into game programming obscurity. There is very little innovation now, because everyone is trying to get WoW sub numbers, and they can't afford to gamble their insanely large investments. .....
The point is, there are people out there with awesome ideas, but no one will give them money. The responsibility for this genre not evolving lays completely in the laps of the corporations who will only fund "sure wins" that rarely ever win. Yes, it's their money, but they are the ones killing this genre if anything truly is. It's no coincidence that the Movie industry has a lot of regurgitated movies these days too. The same people and companies who are dumbing down the movies, are doing the same thing to the games.
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
There are a number of 'mmorpg in a box' development packages already available.
Can't read through 93 replies to see if anyone else has said this, so sorry if it's been said
Jon, you say "we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO, and had their own set of ideas about how best to handle the idea of taking the core of a role playing game, either the electronic version or the pen and paper version, and create an online world that will allow thousands of players to exist and interact within."
I would argue that is exactly what the developers are doing WRONG. The people who developed those other games were developers too, so in essence, you're recycling someone else's game into a different form, and relying on technology development to support it. This is why MMOs cost so freakin' much time and effort (not money, they're pretty cheap products actually) and virtually always disappoint - everywhere you fail in technology, you fail the game design.
I would say that it's far better to take the environment of an MMO, make it the best it can possibly be, and then see what kind of games we can play in it. And I don't mean minigames, I mean "how big and awesome of a game can we pull off with what we've got to work with?"
Right there, you sidestep all of the typical bull you need to go through to make a game work in an MMO. Now you can go ahead and hire game design people to make something that's as fun to play as it can be within the limits of the system. This is where you'll see the innovation that you (and we all) want, because you're giving the design people freedom to innovate, instead of compromising or outright cutting their great, innovative ideas because the technology won't support it (or will cost too much to do so).
I just thought of something- this is pretty much what Cryptic is doing. They created an engine and are now using it for Champions Online and Star Trek Online - two radically different gameplay experiences. Hmmmm.....
Originally posted by MindTrigger Sandbox games like pre-NGE SWG handled this by giving us many options and combinations of options so that not only could we build a fairly unique character, but we could also forge our own story through the game, however we wanted to express and experience it. That was gameplay from an individual level. Some people chose to play the hero roles, but many people did not. Some just wanted to explore or create, some wanted to be social or political. As broken as SWG was, it was enough of a sandbox to hand us the tools to do this, and get out of our way, whether on purpose or accident. We didn't feel like we were playing a game. We felt like we were projecting ourselves into a virtual world, and most of the time the real world fell away through immersion. I'm not saying SWG was the end-all be-all of games. I'm saying that we have moved away from creating deep, diverse game worlds, and have literally thrown everyone into Disneyland expecting them to remain entertained when they ride the same or similar rides over and over again for months on end.
I don't want to turn this great thread into a crazy SWG/NGE discussion, but this post reminded me of one of those "aha" moments I've had with this genre.
It was post NGE change, and the uproar was still very heated. There was this long thread on their forums about the Scout profession, which had been dropped. Folks were sharing their stories about hunting and camping with friends, capturing great screenshots, and the fun RP they experienced with the profession (while also ranting/raving about its demise).
A dev was dropping little posts in the discussion, and at one point, in an seemingly snarky tone, asked how folks could actually have "fun" doing virtual camping. The post caused an immediate firestorm.
Did anyone tell him "the same way you used to have fun just hanging around with your friends, before you had your brain replaced with an eggplant"?
From the article: "...we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO... "Just take a minute and consider the possibilities that this might open up. How, for example, would someone who had never head of the concept of instancing decide to tackle their content? How would people unfamiliar with raiding and gear grinding handle the concept of an endgame? The possibilities are endless. "This, my friends, could lead not to the innovation that so many of us have been begging for, but instead to the sense and feeling of true invention that captured so many people's imaginations during the birth of the genre."
I completely disagree. Willful isolation and ignorance is never the correct course of action, it creates a stagnant pool of ideas. In order to fully understand why we have done what we've done, we must examine it carefully and formulate probable solutions from what we know, not from what we don't know.
When we need to design something new, we don't go into a trance-like meditative state and hope the muse strikes in time for the deadline. No, we search for what has been done, why it has been done, how it could be done differently, and how we can improve upon the old formulas if we get no new plausible concepts. It is a very scientific process.
Unfortunately, this process is stripped from game development as people like Bobby Kotick attempt to keep the status quo and live off the fat of the soon-to-be-immobile industry. Complacency leads to stagnancy. We as developers are complacent with our jobs because we're paid to make games, not to innovate. You see where this leads.
New ideas are formulated from old ones. In order to make any use from old ideas, one must first understand them and their nature.
If a developer told to design a massively multiplayer game has never played one, and they are cut off from the rest of the world, the end design will be something akin to the first MUDs - a coarse and unrefined prototype of the MMORPGs we have today. That's taking a step back, not forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Innovation stems from knowledge, not ignorance.
I think the idea of having an entirely new crop of developers create something novel is what we all want to see. That is to say, sometimes we do need to reinvent the wheel. Thinking stems from ignorance -ignorance is what allows a person to pursue knowledge. So in the case of games, finding potential flaws in the current model of MMORPGs and correcting them is definitely something worth doing as it leads to innovation, but it doesn't lead to invention as I think Mr. Wood was saying.
World of Warcraft is a prime example of developers innovating the current genre. They had a goal in mind: "Let's make a game that anyone can get into, and let's have it so people can share this experience easily together." The end result was an extremely popular game, but it wasn't something new.
So, while it's not necessary for a developer to have never played an MMORPG before to make something really awesome, I think it is necessary to take a step back - away from the bounds that have defined MMORPGs thus far - to do something really new.
Take the Katamari series for example. There was nothing like it before and it ended up being a big hit. There is room for a new experience in MMORP gaming, the question is: Who is going to step up and make it?
And are gamers open-minded enough to accept it?
Knowledge is never inhibiting, closed-mindedness is.
Ignorance is bliss and willful complacency (it is taking solace in the belief that there is nothing new to explore). It is what defines a closed-minded and mentally stagnant individual.
When you are taught how to do something, or how not to do something, you are establishing dogma and what is known as "functional fixation." That is closed-mindedness: establishing a conclusion and law instead of a theory. Theories can change and be flexible, laws cannot. When one cannot reconsider their position on something, they can be considered defiantly ignorant and closed-minded.
The more you know, the better. But what also matters is how you know.
Innovation happens in a non-linear way: a not-so-obvious solution to a simple problem. You cannot get that unless you understand the problem and what has already been attempted to solve it (lest you be doomed to repeat it).
World of Warcraft took the idea of Ultima Online and Everquest, as is evident from the UI, journal, and combat mechanics, and simply perfected it. The world's innovators are forgotten when the perfectionists take the gold and polish it. You are silly to believe that WoW is an original and innovative concept.
Needless to say, the designer of Katamari Damacy had played many video games before coming up with his own idea.
"Lead developer Keita Takahashi said that the team was aiming for four key points in developing the game: novelty, ease of understanding, enjoyment, and humor. Iwatani compared the game to Namco's Pac-Man, which focused on simplicity and innovation, and served as a template for future games from the company. At one point during development, Takahashi "proactively ignored" advice from Namco to increase the complexity of the game."
Is there anything ignorant about this man? He chose to decline the established dogma of his publisher, and to great success. Had he been ignorant, he would have listened to what he was told by Namco, and we would not have the fun game that is Katamari Damacy.
Will Wright is another open-minded individual. He thought up Sim City after playing with a level editor for one of his earlier games. He admitted that the level editor was more entertaining than the game itself, and so he wanted to play with that idea and make it into something other people could enjoy.
If he had never played a video game or even worked on one, we would not have had Sim City, The Sims, or SPORE's amazing creature creator.
Ignorance does not breed innovation. Functional fixation does not breed innovation.
Knowledge and open-minded theory application are the keys to creative invention.
First let me say that I am an ex Red 5 Studios, Blizzard, and Origin Programmer / Designer so I know a LOT about the internals of MMO's. With that, here is my plan... "The Paradoxical Plan" for my MMO Futures.
I have taken it upon myself to reinvent this genre by reinventing the way a video game company works. My first change is the new term GGU for Gargantuan Game Universe vs. Massively Multiplayer Online. Think of it as the Anarchy Online model of one server versus multiple "Shards" or "Servers", whatever your brand is calling them.
I am doing something I believe (I may be wrong though) that no one else has done. I am putting all my design, programming, hr, and any future docs for the development of this game on the net. I want other game studios to rip us off so other people know they stole something from us. A clear and presense of who came up with what. We may have come up with the idea, but you implemented it better than us, that's cool, but as a programmer and designer I want a track record... So I am starting one. I encourage other companies to SHOW they are not greedy like this. I dare them to. This is how I am planning and, "crosses-fingers" will get a successful company that isn't about making money but about making great games the players want to make.
Below is a link to my personal forums. It includes things such as my religion, psychic and supernatural phenomenon that I have seen, stories from the video game industry, sexual and profane material, so it is an 18+ site. (I haven't checked the legal issues of this, I am just being cautious.)
Go to that link, agree to go to the forms. (Sorry for redirecting people from your forums to mine, but I encourage them to stay here!) Or open another tab, drink a jolt, and join me in the world of video game development.
Go to the VAIN17 forum to find the link to my design docs and such and I dare you to code them faster than me. lol.
I find it interesting that this article discusses that the industry needs a reboot and what it would take to have a new kind of MMORPG made... when there is one already listed on this very site that is under development to do that very thing. The game is changing much of what is normal in the clone MMOs we play.
I became interested in the game when I read the forums here and learned that it is not a grind MMO game. There are no monsters that pop back into existance to kill over and over. The world is not static, time moves on the world changes every day. Monsters and NPCs live lives, have agendas. Player actions can affect changes in the world. Players live personal stories and don't do the same little dumb quests that everyone else does. NPCs don't stand around and hand out the same quests to all players. Quests are big fantasy novel style non-linear adventures that differ for each player based on the players actions during the quests. And much more.
Sure, it's not done, and from what they have said, still early in graphics (though far in technology and design). But... it is an innnovative new MMO that breaks the mold. Perhaps you should ask the devs at MMO Magic what it is taking to make a new kind of MMO? The game is Citadel of Sorcery, and yes, I'm a big fan, but this is exactly the kind of game this article is about, and it is being made now.
There's nothing to discuss! To "reboot'', designers should simply come up with a new way to conceive quests and questing.
And the genre will be "re-imagined"... they simply have to see quests outside of their "box" and wow's box. Personally, modesty aside, I can come up with 20 new ways to do quests(as generic concept of doing tasks). What about reversing the quest concept? The routine says you take a quest from a damn NPC with his DAMN exclamation mark, and then you go to the cued place. What if you just pass by places, "do something" to them, so in a way you assign yourself a task, then you summarize what you have done, your "achievements", not as in how many rats' testicles you've collected naturally, but for example what building you destroyed, which person you killed, if you extinguished fire, irrigated a field, then you go to an NPC whose profession feels linked to what you did, a hunter, a farmer, vendor, trader, and SEE if your custom "voluntary" quest gives rewards, with a calculation of relevance.
Just an idea.
Beside questing everythng is secondary, character progression is the activity we do the most, and obviously it's the one that determines the game's "personality", if it's either a clone of WoW-subgenre or not.
take a game like the old SWG (i dont care if you dont want to hear about swg). Take the crafting and resource gathering it had then. Instead of making the player log into the game and walk around each planet, design a browser based interface that players could just open their browser, log in, and see each planet. From there they could still manually sample each spot on the planet to find the highest concentration. Then either place and gather resources from the browser as well, or put in an order for a player in game to do it. Offering payment of whatever, cash, % of the take, special xp that the in game player could use for whatever.
Make it so the browser player gets additional perks for having friends to help or as neighbors or whatever.
let crafters use the browser too. To craft, advertise, search prices, restock vendors, ect..make it so they get additional bonus for getting friends to help or be nieghbors. Let them place orders for in game players to transfer goods, or supply looted materials.
Make money from advertising or small fee's that could be bypassed by getting more friends to help or be neighbors. give them game time credits if they ever want to sub to the real game, where they could view and decorate their shops. Charge higher prices, bypass the need to pay for work orders to be filled by players. You could even have set prices that browser users must use to control inflation and supply standard equipment so it's always available to newer players for good prices. or let in game players sell bad resources to them because they get perks for having more browser friends that let them condense large amounts of crap into very tiny amounts of good resources only usable in the browser, or they can pay to bypass this and re-sell in game at set prices. or sub and sell them for whatever to whoever. But these kind of abilities are from gaining new friends in the browser portion. So someone could just use a browser alt, but they would still have to bring in friends to gain abilities. Allow the browser crafter to pay a lower sub to alter their browser char to a crafting only char only access crafting skills in game..no combat.
Just generic ideas off the top of my head, but the more in depth systems you have, the more groups you could target and offer web based clients to. the more people you get to play there, the more people will switch over to subscriptions. The more your game will be acceptable to the masses, NOT accessable only.
Now this might not get 10 million subs, but it might get you 100k more, or keep your game supplied with new people. Why make an entirely new free web based mmo thats free to play and try to tempt them to buying things they don't want, instead of easing them into an already made cash cow, and doing so because they and their friends want to.
Obviously there are alot of things wrong with what i suggested, but they're just suggestions. I know it wouldnt work as described above. But it's an idea, rather than following SOE down the shitter. It would be rather easy to experiement instaed of designing a game based off your spying abilities and horrible marketing.(except blizz, they know how to do both:))
Chaeper than buying a company and hoping they can reproduce their success when no one else can.
It would be free-basing inspiration to current designers too if they could get something like that started. The different ways to do it are endless.
Spelling and grammer errors are there for a reason if anyone bothers to read this drivel.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
There have been some positive developments on this front. Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos. That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences. I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else. Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule. And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors. The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
Thanks for the reply, and I agree. I didn't know that about Icarus. I bought FE and started playing it, but exploration is a huge gaming feature for me (I learned) and the desert southwest as presented in FE was too boring to hold my interest. I wish them well in their plans to make an MMO creation platform.
Spore: I followed Spore for a long time before launch, and became interested in the methods they used to program it. Namely, the procedural generation / procedural animation which was used. That technology has the potential to really level the playing field for smaller game developers as it matures. One of the biggest expenses and time sinks in game dev is the art assets. Being able to "generate" most those assets with code rather than create them manually could save millions on a large MMO, especially when you need to populate huge game maps with natural looking terrain, flora and fauna.
Check out this indy game in development that is almost all procedurally generated. It's a real trip:
I used to follow FE back before they abandoned certain core elements of the original game design which in my mind removed a lot of the fun factor for me personally and also doomed the game to general mediocrity. So I know about the platform stuff. I suspect if FE had been more successful so would everyone else by now. But I don't think it's quite lived up to their expectations of being a good showcase MMO for their product.
That indy game looks interesting... Not sure about the artwork though - it'd be like playing an mmo inside a Monet.
Comments
I'm still reading through the posts on this thread, and I'm really enjoying the discussion.
I started playing MMO's in 1995 with The Realm, and have played pretty much all of them since then. I started playing them because I've been roleplaying since 1975 and I thought it would be awesome to step into another world. And it was!
However, I think it's high time that someone brought the "RPG" back into MMO's. Case in point, Warhammer, the game that I have been enjoying with a core group of roleplayers, just shut down the last RP server, Phoenix Throne. I tried to roleplay on the new server, but I was immediately yanked out of the "world" and into "game" due to a plethora of stupid names and people jumping up and down all over like rabbits on amphetamines. So I went back to LotRO. The gameplay isn't as much of what I would like, since I love PvP, but the immersion is my priority, and that game has it in spades.
Companies need to stop calling the game an MMORPG if they can't be arsed enough to support the RPG part.
Help me, BioWare, you're my only hope.
I read some posts, but they pile up..
Ill try not to repeat what others have said.
What have made people enjoy simplistic games since the dawn of time?
- Something different than everyday life
- Social interaction
- Challenge, ether physical or mental
- A sense of accomplishment / excellence
My view of todays MMOs
We have leveling games, grinding games, social games..the list goes on.
What i feel that all the sub genres have in common is materialism.
These games appeal to peoples greed, like a carrot on a string.
And even worse, people feel superior to others becouse they have a blinking sword, fancy armor..
What i realized when playing MMOs is that i dont really enjoy all the time i put in to get that sword. And when i have it, theres a better sword that looks awesome. If i put in more time..
So where am i going with this? If you use countless hours of youre life doing something you dont really enjoy, and paying for it. Then youre just stupid.
Prototyping
I really think the entertainment industry as a whole need to rethink theyre whole idea of fun.
Experiencing something over and over is usualy horribly boring.
To counter that you need a fresh idea. This is the core of the problem.
We see things that allready exist, and we get overly focused on it.
Theres allso the prejudice factor that seem to be etched into peoples brains.
Before something new become popular it usualy get bashed half to dead. Ironicly everyone get all exited when its up for grabs.
I really dont think games need to be re-invented. As i said, its repetitive.
Recycling the really good bits, perfecting it, and adding something new. Thats what id like to see.
Reinventing the wheel is fine, but unless you know how to counter gravity i think youre stuck.
The magical hook
Nowadays the items we buy in the store are usualy made to break.
At some point we need something new, expensive. And its usualy the same as the old, just slightly different.
For games i feel this is a big problem. They spend millions on making a game, and make everything from scratch. Its stupid, why not add hooks?
Hooks are useful, you can hang stuff on them. If you want to hang something else you replace the old thing on the hook.
My point is that someone create something awesome, like a computer program. Then they discard it when it served its purpuse.
If they added a hook, they could reuse at least parts of it. Its prolly something beeing used all the time, but considering how timeconsuming and expensive the games have become, i dont think its used enough.
User content
The players in a game is a pretty powerful resource. Some people have the skills to create new content.
I remeber when Half-Life came out, they had the WorldCraft editor that the players could use to mod the game. Theres been many games since, that allow the users to create something, even if its just a toony character that looks ridiculous.
Ill really like to someone make a game that let the community create something. Iam not talking about pre-created items in a crafting system.
Imagine if you were handed a hammer and showel and a voice says "If you follow these rules, you can build a house. However youd like".
Id build a nice house, and defend it with my showel.
This type of creating would take a game to a new level. Imagine a clan/guild that have theyre own city. They enforce the law, wich they made.
I think the feeling youd get if you walked into that city, it would be alot better than a pre-created town filled with npcs.
With binding contracts between npcs, players and players. There could be real trading and industry.
The nice thing about involving the community is that alot of people get exactly what they want. And the game company just have to set the limits, without doing much work.
End
Id like to see proper rewards and greater penalties and risks. The whole grindfest concept need to go. Real life player skills and ingenuity should be what games are about. Not how many bling-blings you have and that you wasted the last years of youre life.
Some realism is allso lacking. When i shoot someone in the head, they should die.
And they should not come running back 5 minutes later.
Lastly, the industry wont try major changes as long as people pay them money.
You can scream all you like, if you finance a major company, you are to blame.
"The customer is allways right".
So, i think the big gaming companies just need a good kick in the right direction.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
I would have to agree with Regen.
All content these days is hard-coded. As imaginative and well-done as it may be, once you've been through it a few times, it gets stale. Dynamic content would be a welcome addition to the genre. Give the players the tools to create content. Be it, town governance as previously mentioned, or the ability to create dynamic dungeon encounters.
The collective creativity of the players will always trump that of the developers...there are simply more of us.
Create a persistent world and let the collective creativity of your playerbase to run rampant. Not only are you going to save a load in developing expansions, but you are guaranteeing that the playerbase shapes the world to be one that they will always enjoy. If they find something lacking...they have the tools to change it.
"Yep (well successful game, not games). Though if you don't get why, I doubt any further clarification would do you any good. However, for everyone else out there: when a single product dominates a market so that no other product can get a toehold in... yes that does stifle the market."
Oh please. I am a company with the means to develop something. I am a venture capitalist, whatever. Before EQ, do I have any interest in a big investment in MMOs? After EQ is a success, yes now it doesn't look so stupid. Hmm, maybe Blizzard looked at it this way? Who knows? Now after WOW...hey there's big money, POSSIBLY. So maybe its EASIER now?
Your comment only makes sense for a monopoly/oligopoly, where prevention of competition is real. Let's see, before EQ how many new MMOs were there in the previous 5 years? OH,,, one maybe, UO? After EQ, many, and many had some success like DAOC. And after WOW...how many MMOs on the game board? Sure a lot of junk. A lot of disappointments. But that's how it works and it shows people are trying.
And now for more opinion that will gall you...my pick for the most important MMO release of the next year.
STO? Nope. I would like it to be but my money is on the people with resources and a history of success.
Cataclysm. Sorry if that ruins your day. Or maybe I am not sorry. A lot hangs on what innovation comes with this expansion. It could be a big flop, but whatever happens it will be the biggest news of next year.
Or as I say, maybe someone in a garage will make the next killer MMO! Hey, I can dream too.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
From the article:
"...we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO...
"Just take a minute and consider the possibilities that this might open up. How, for example, would someone who had never head of the concept of instancing decide to tackle their content? How would people unfamiliar with raiding and gear grinding handle the concept of an endgame? The possibilities are endless.
"This, my friends, could lead not to the innovation that so many of us have been begging for, but instead to the sense and feeling of true invention that captured so many people's imaginations during the birth of the genre."
I completely disagree. Willful isolation and ignorance is never the correct course of action, it creates a stagnant pool of ideas. In order to fully understand why we have done what we've done, we must examine it carefully and formulate probable solutions from what we know, not from what we don't know.
When we need to design something new, we don't go into a trance-like meditative state and hope the muse strikes in time for the deadline. No, we search for what has been done, why it has been done, how it could be done differently, and how we can improve upon the old formulas if we get no new plausible concepts. It is a very scientific process.
Unfortunately, this process is stripped from game development as people like Bobby Kotick attempt to keep the status quo and live off the fat of the soon-to-be-immobile industry. Complacency leads to stagnancy. We as developers are complacent with our jobs because we're paid to make games, not to innovate. You see where this leads.
New ideas are formulated from old ones. In order to make any use from old ideas, one must first understand them and their nature.
If a developer told to design a massively multiplayer game has never played one, and they are cut off from the rest of the world, the end design will be something akin to the first MUDs - a coarse and unrefined prototype of the MMORPGs we have today. That's taking a step back, not forward.
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Innovation stems from knowledge, not ignorance.
These big game developers need to stop trying to 'knock one out of the park' and work on a few niche games where they can take some chances. I don't think the players are a problem here, unless you are trying to get millions of subscribers to try a new MMO game concept. You will have to start off with some niche games, and those features that are successful will filter their way out into the mainstream naturally, or they will fade into game programming obscurity. There is very little innovation now, because everyone is trying to get WoW sub numbers, and they can't afford to gamble their insanely large investments.
SEED THE GAME
Some of you may remember a little game that was dead on arrival called, SEED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_%28computer_game%29
SEED was slated to be a scientific/political (non-combat) game based around player cooperation to deal with a "desert island" scenario where people on a space ship were supposed to land on a far away planet that had been terraformed, but when they arrived, they found out it had not. They also had no communication with Earth, so it was up to them to find a way to survive. (the description on the wiki page is much better than my Cliffs notes.)
The developers had planned to release the game with the players stranded on a breaking down, malfunctioning ship, then let the players ultimately decide how the story and gameplay would evolve with future game development. At least this is how I remember the concept being presented. The whole thing intrigued me to no end, and I was a member of the forums and was in closed beta (read: pre-alpha). The whole project just seemed so interesting and had a ton of potential that wasn't wrapped in combat like nearly all other MMORPG games are.
Unfortunately, they didn't have the funding to pull it off, and they tried to launch the game way too early, which is something we see with a lot of indie games, and it was shut down very shortly after launch. I wish they would have preserved the game's website with all the old forums and information on it, but they took it down.
This game wouldn't have grabbed millions of players, but it had the potential to be an 'EVE' in it's own way. The point is, there are people out there with awesome ideas, but no one will give them money. The responsibility for this genre not evolving lays completely in the laps of the corporations who will only fund "sure wins" that rarely ever win. Yes, it's their money, but they are the ones killing this genre if anything truly is. It's no coincidence that the Movie industry has a lot of regurgitated movies these days too. The same people and companies who are dumbing down the movies, are doing the same thing to the games.
It's marketing 101, really. Design your product for the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR to ensure the largest market. The only problem is, that leaves a good portion of people who don't want stupid products, out in the cold. We are also a ripe market just waiting to be tapped if anyone had the balls to do so.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I'm glad you mention FPS mmos - they're something I quite enjoy.
But in a similar vein to my earlier post...
Tabula Rasa may eventually have been a great game. I played it at release. The FPS was a breath of fresh air. It had a great atmosphere, with ships flying around and dropping mobs off, and mobs attacking cities and players able to attack and re-take said cities. TR had one of the most alive gameworlds I've ever played in.
But TR was going to be one thing and then halfway through its development cycle they decided to make a wholly new game. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that when they reached their deadline for release, the game wasn't actually finished.
TR's failure is no reflection at all on the type of mmo it tried to be.
Hellgate London... As a single player game, I enjoyed it. But I looked at the $15 a month subscription fee and the semi-mmo that would get me and immediately labelled it a rip-off. There was no way I was ever going to play the online version. I think it's like CO charging a subscription AND having an item mall. It's overpriced. Overpriced products don't sell - short of some seriously orgasmic marketing.
I never played Planetside so don't know why it bombed, but I doubt it was because it coloured outside the lines.
But Darkfall I have played. Really enjoyed the FPS again, but it was plagued by some seriously poor game design elements. FPS definitely isn't its problem.
These failures all have clearly identifiable causes and they have nothing to do with trying to be different.
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
Thanks for the reply, and I agree. I didn't know that about Icarus. I bought FE and started playing it, but exploration is a huge gaming feature for me (I learned) and the desert southwest as presented in FE was too boring to hold my interest. I wish them well in their plans to make an MMO creation platform.
Spore: I followed Spore for a long time before launch, and became interested in the methods they used to program it. Namely, the procedural generation / procedural animation which was used. That technology has the potential to really level the playing field for smaller game developers as it matures. One of the biggest expenses and time sinks in game dev is the art assets. Being able to "generate" most those assets with code rather than create them manually could save millions on a large MMO, especially when you need to populate huge game maps with natural looking terrain, flora and fauna.
Check out this indy game in development that is almost all procedurally generated. It's a real trip:
http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I think the idea of having an entirely new crop of developers create something novel is what we all want to see. That is to say, sometimes we do need to reinvent the wheel. Thinking stems from ignorance -ignorance is what allows a person to pursue knowledge. So in the case of games, finding potential flaws in the current model of MMORPGs and correcting them is definitely something worth doing as it leads to innovation, but it doesn't lead to invention as I think Mr. Wood was saying.
World of Warcraft is a prime example of developers innovating the current genre. They had a goal in mind: "Let's make a game that anyone can get into, and let's have it so people can share this experience easily together." The end result was an extremely popular game, but it wasn't something new.
So, while it's not necessary for a developer to have never played an MMORPG before to make something really awesome, I think it is necessary to take a step back - away from the bounds that have defined MMORPGs thus far - to do something really new.
Take the Katamari series for example. There was nothing like it before and it ended up being a big hit. There is room for a new experience in MMORP gaming, the question is: Who is going to step up and make it?
And are gamers open-minded enough to accept it?
Which FF Character Are You?
The idea that the entire MMORPG genre need to be rebooted is a frivolous idea at best. The entire MMORPG genre has been to one type of player (ie. those of us who enjoy mindless quests and grind), with the few exceptions (Ex. Eve Online, Sims Online, Second Life etc.). Now in order for those of us who are rather sick of the norm, there needs to be change in how MMORPG's are designed.
Instead of being designed to the majority, which in the corporate mind generates money, design the game to fit the individual. If the individual enjoys what he/she sees then and only then will they invest both time and money into a game. The corporate mindset as it is now only sees that it does not necessarily matter what the individual experiences, but rather what the majority experiences. If the majority is feeling happy then in turn the majority will stay, but this is clearly wrong. If the majority is happy, but the individual lacks an experiences he himself enjoys by himself then their is no reason to stay after they lose their initial euforia.
Example you are at a party everyone is enjoying themselves, but then you come to the realization that you are no longer necessary to the party and are being ignored, well then you leave, nobody notices or cares. It is only afterwards that you realise you have started a chain reaction your friend which you invited over noticed you leave, and this in turn causes him and everyone else to leave around the same time. The party sucks its only the people who make it fun. (unless of course it is rather early and your just a jackass and a loner)
Just like sheep if we no longer feel on an individual scale that we are happy we will follow suit and leave. In order to keep the sheep keep it happy or at least make it think other sheep are there.
How do you make a game to fit the individual, well now that is hard, and this could also be why corporate dislikes the idea, because it takes money and a shit load of time. Players need a presence among their peers, in order to accomplish this each individual therefore must be unique (ie. player created objects, avatars weapons). When a player walks into a room filled with noobs they will ask questions about how they did something because nobody else has done it. In a sense the creation of an MMORPG is the creation of an entirely new world through physics, chemistry, and biology, and must adjust dramatically over time just like the four seasons (without the global warming).
Sandbox games like pre-NGE SWG handled this by giving us many options and combinations of options so that not only could we build a fairly unique character, but we could also forge our own story through the game, however we wanted to express and experience it. That was gameplay from an individual level. Some people chose to play the hero roles, but many people did not. Some just wanted to explore or create, some wanted to be social or political.
As broken as SWG was, it was enough of a sandbox to hand us the tools to do this, and get out of our way, whether on purpose or accident. We didn't feel like we were playing a game. We felt like we were projecting ourselves into a virtual world, and most of the time the real world fell away through immersion. I'm not saying SWG was the end-all be-all of games. I'm saying that we have moved away from creating deep, diverse game worlds, and have literally thrown everyone into Disneyland expecting them to remain entertained when they ride the same or similar rides over and over again for months on end.
These combat theme parks leave out the those people who enjoy things other than combat, and you end up with a game full of the same aggressive people, and no artists, scientists, musicians, etc. This is one of the reasons they are boring for me, and they are becoming boring to more and more people as time goes on. Once you've spent a couple years playing theme-parks, they are all the same. SEED intrigued me because it was a completely different take on MMO play. I would have liked to have seen how that game evolved had it been properly funded.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I don't think MMOs are in a decline, consider this ask any person who's got a character on any grind game thats over level 50 (50% to end game) which they like more console games or MMOs. I'm confident they'll say MMO. I know personally whenim on anything but an MMO, i feel like im completely wasting my time, id rather read a book... So what im getting at is, MMos will never die the genre is now a foundation for newer things to come.
Personally, Ive found that games that don't force level grinds just so you can get to the next area or match your friends, to be much more interesting.
Take Wurm online for instance its a small game mostly due to a lack of dev interest in getting to big, also its limited funding however its a game with little to no developer made content, you have forests deserts and oceans things you'd find on any world, and the players make the world amazing and interesting. Lets consider that on wow games your gonna dungeon crawl and fight monsters and so on, but why? why are you doing thous things as am, player i mean, its certainly not for the flavor text your didn't read, no its to grind to the next level so you can get a moment of breath before moving on to the next grind, id like to see my effort reflected in the world im entering, if i attack and kill 50 worgs they better be dead for awhile because how can 50 worgs be born (spawn) in one patch of woods ever few seconds?
Take mortal online for instance, no levels just skills, now ill admit fresh landed and thous who have had time to train up they're skillz are on two different levels, the game is so much more interesting when you can log in, give it a few hours not months, and your already a big help to your friends or guild.I mean even if i cant swing the best sword as fast or often i can still toss around a few heals that do sway a battle in our favor.
Honest, I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people. How can it be so interesting when you can barely make an impact on the world. In real life, most anything you do effects the people around you, how is it ok for us all to have exactly the same experience. I say death to the single player games posing as MMOs.
"If they had played the game, theyd probably be far more upset. Dragon Age also features digital prostitutes, lesbians, rather clean three way sex, inter-species erotica, war, decapitation, thinly veiled social commentary, alcohol, drug addiction, slavery, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, genocide, the death of children, demons, and more blood than a vampire drinking game." -Dana Massey
Meridian 59, The Realm, UO, Lineage, just to name a few. There were quite a few more if you put the small effort in to looking them up.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I don't want to turn this great thread into a crazy SWG/NGE discussion, but this post reminded me of one of those "aha" moments I've had with this genre.
It was post NGE change, and the uproar was still very heated. There was this long thread on their forums about the Scout profession, which had been dropped. Folks were sharing their stories about hunting and camping with friends, capturing great screenshots, and the fun RP they experienced with the profession (while also ranting/raving about its demise).
A dev was dropping little posts in the discussion, and at one point, in an seemingly snarky tone, asked how folks could actually have "fun" doing virtual camping. The post caused an immediate firestorm.
For me, though, it was an "aha" moment. One that, now, seems to reflect more and more of the industry (and not just the NGE developers). That dev specifically, and most of that team probably, had a VERY DIFFERENT "philosophy" regarding what is "fun" and what mmo's should do...at least, different from what the players of THAT game had. The change may even have been as benign as going from "do what ever makes you happy" to "everybody likes adventures"...but, it was a change none the less. Changes in "philosophy" make a much bigger impact than most expect, because the change never stops at one place. It permeates the entire game.
Recently, I followed a game that planned to be single-player with an innovative online component. Over two years, the philosophy changed from that to a game that was equal in single and multiplayer modes, to, finally, an mmo that needs subscription fees, with an unequal single player experience that is designed more as a preview.
As you can imagine, the change in philosophy over those two years rubbed A LOT of players the wrong way, lead to a lot of lost fans, and hurt the final product (thanks to the mish-mash of designs that got cobbled together from the different time periods of the games development life).
Point being: The developers did more damage by changing their ideas on WHAT they wanted their game to be than if they had just stuck it out with what they originally envisioned. AND, the issue was compounded by the fact that the NEW philosophy was even FURTHER away from what the players philosophy was. That's poor execution...no matter what FIELD you are in.
I could go on...but no need to blather. Thanks for the reminder of that "aha" moment....its something I hadn't thought about in a while, and its fitting that this thread would bring it back up.
I hope, I can draw a good corolation with this.
Comic books have had thier ups and downs in industry. In 1989, comics got a boost of attention because the first "Batman" movie came out. This set off chains of reactions to the whole of the comic industry. New publishers popped up along with tons of new writers and artists. Were they any good? Some were great while others were shlock dealers. The way comics were reguarded changed, Marvel went public with its stock and more movies were commissioned. You would think it was a good period for comics, right?
By the time that "Batman and Robin" the forth film bombed at the box office and was an insult to comic fans the comic industry was killing itself. Greedy publishers were more into marketing Multi-covers of the same issues with thin stories and lower and lower panel count. Some books even released more than one issue per month to follow season trends of buyers. The industry standards suffered and quality of product dropped. A comic could be sold merrily on its cover rather than being of any deep significance. Was it all bleak? No, there were a few gems among the shlock but they were very few.
This period in comic industry is knows as the "Speculator Era". Folks were not reading books as often as they were buying them as investments. This trend encouraged publisher to get the comics out as fast and often as possible reguardless of content. Marvel and DC Comics were guilty but other publishers didn't help as some books amounted to artists making intersting "splash pages" after "splash pages" with little connection of story. A splash page is a one pic panel used to set a stage of a story.
Publishers went bankrupt in the mid-90's as customers quit buying this shlock. Have the practices stopped? Mostly, but a few still use these practices to maximize sales to the Hard Core comic fans.
I believe the MMO genere is in a type of "Speculator Era" with the success of WOW like the first "Batman" movie. What will come of this period of the genere of poor low quality games rushed to market before they are playable? The MMO genere as a whole will be found to be un-viable as a whole at some point and development and funding will dry up. It will be left with only a few companies supporting a handful of popular games with little entry. IP holders will ignore pitchmen in mass and find new ways to captialize on thier franchies without as high an investment. If MMO's continue the current trend, investors will become wise and pass on such projects.
Can this direction change? Sure, but it takes educated investors willing to take a chance. It takes folks willing to sacrifice investment time for a good product. It will also take a product to be released that is on par in quality to WOW. A product that is designed with long term goals and not "get rich quick" box sales marketing. It will take a dev team that is professional and dedicated to making that product the best they have ever done. If a member slacks or doesn't take the product seriously, transfer or fired. "Divas are left at the door."
Its just a game, right? Is 11 million subscriptions just a game to a investor?
There have been some positive developments on this front.
Icarus (the folk who made Fallen Earth) set out with a plan not just to develop Fallen Earth, but to develop an MMO development platform, with which they'd make Fallen Earth. In a way, Fallen Earth is just a product sample - their ultimate goal is to entice others to use their platform to make other mmos.
That kind of platform opens up interesting possibilities. I don't know what their precise funding model is, but they seem to be claiming on their site to be able to halve development costs. That means mmo developers using their platform can feasibly develop mmos for smaller audiences.
I see that kind of trend continuing, whether with Icarus or someone else.
Spore is another excellent example - the creature editor allows anyone to create whole, moving creatures from individual parts and with almost unlimited scope for variation. And the amount of data each creature design requires is miniscule.
And of course there's the TES construction modules, and many strategy games before it have allowed users to create their own maps with terrain editors.
The technology is there and I think it's only a matter of time before we see affordable "make-your-own-mmo" packages that will allow for the kind of variety you'd like to see.
There are a number of 'mmorpg in a box' development packages already available.
Can't read through 93 replies to see if anyone else has said this, so sorry if it's been said
Jon, you say "we would have to find qualified, competent developers who had never played an MMO, and had their own set of ideas about how best to handle the idea of taking the core of a role playing game, either the electronic version or the pen and paper version, and create an online world that will allow thousands of players to exist and interact within."
I would argue that is exactly what the developers are doing WRONG. The people who developed those other games were developers too, so in essence, you're recycling someone else's game into a different form, and relying on technology development to support it. This is why MMOs cost so freakin' much time and effort (not money, they're pretty cheap products actually) and virtually always disappoint - everywhere you fail in technology, you fail the game design.
I would say that it's far better to take the environment of an MMO, make it the best it can possibly be, and then see what kind of games we can play in it. And I don't mean minigames, I mean "how big and awesome of a game can we pull off with what we've got to work with?"
Right there, you sidestep all of the typical bull you need to go through to make a game work in an MMO. Now you can go ahead and hire game design people to make something that's as fun to play as it can be within the limits of the system. This is where you'll see the innovation that you (and we all) want, because you're giving the design people freedom to innovate, instead of compromising or outright cutting their great, innovative ideas because the technology won't support it (or will cost too much to do so).
I just thought of something- this is pretty much what Cryptic is doing. They created an engine and are now using it for Champions Online and Star Trek Online - two radically different gameplay experiences. Hmmmm.....
I don't want to turn this great thread into a crazy SWG/NGE discussion, but this post reminded me of one of those "aha" moments I've had with this genre.
It was post NGE change, and the uproar was still very heated. There was this long thread on their forums about the Scout profession, which had been dropped. Folks were sharing their stories about hunting and camping with friends, capturing great screenshots, and the fun RP they experienced with the profession (while also ranting/raving about its demise).
A dev was dropping little posts in the discussion, and at one point, in an seemingly snarky tone, asked how folks could actually have "fun" doing virtual camping. The post caused an immediate firestorm.
Did anyone tell him "the same way you used to have fun just hanging around with your friends, before you had your brain replaced with an eggplant"?
I think the idea of having an entirely new crop of developers create something novel is what we all want to see. That is to say, sometimes we do need to reinvent the wheel. Thinking stems from ignorance -ignorance is what allows a person to pursue knowledge. So in the case of games, finding potential flaws in the current model of MMORPGs and correcting them is definitely something worth doing as it leads to innovation, but it doesn't lead to invention as I think Mr. Wood was saying.
World of Warcraft is a prime example of developers innovating the current genre. They had a goal in mind: "Let's make a game that anyone can get into, and let's have it so people can share this experience easily together." The end result was an extremely popular game, but it wasn't something new.
So, while it's not necessary for a developer to have never played an MMORPG before to make something really awesome, I think it is necessary to take a step back - away from the bounds that have defined MMORPGs thus far - to do something really new.
Take the Katamari series for example. There was nothing like it before and it ended up being a big hit. There is room for a new experience in MMORP gaming, the question is: Who is going to step up and make it?
And are gamers open-minded enough to accept it?
Knowledge is never inhibiting, closed-mindedness is.
Ignorance is bliss and willful complacency (it is taking solace in the belief that there is nothing new to explore). It is what defines a closed-minded and mentally stagnant individual.
When you are taught how to do something, or how not to do something, you are establishing dogma and what is known as "functional fixation." That is closed-mindedness: establishing a conclusion and law instead of a theory. Theories can change and be flexible, laws cannot. When one cannot reconsider their position on something, they can be considered defiantly ignorant and closed-minded.
The more you know, the better. But what also matters is how you know.
Innovation happens in a non-linear way: a not-so-obvious solution to a simple problem. You cannot get that unless you understand the problem and what has already been attempted to solve it (lest you be doomed to repeat it).
World of Warcraft took the idea of Ultima Online and Everquest, as is evident from the UI, journal, and combat mechanics, and simply perfected it. The world's innovators are forgotten when the perfectionists take the gold and polish it. You are silly to believe that WoW is an original and innovative concept.
Needless to say, the designer of Katamari Damacy had played many video games before coming up with his own idea.
"Lead developer Keita Takahashi said that the team was aiming for four key points in developing the game: novelty, ease of understanding, enjoyment, and humor. Iwatani compared the game to Namco's Pac-Man, which focused on simplicity and innovation, and served as a template for future games from the company. At one point during development, Takahashi "proactively ignored" advice from Namco to increase the complexity of the game."
Is there anything ignorant about this man? He chose to decline the established dogma of his publisher, and to great success. Had he been ignorant, he would have listened to what he was told by Namco, and we would not have the fun game that is Katamari Damacy.
Will Wright is another open-minded individual. He thought up Sim City after playing with a level editor for one of his earlier games. He admitted that the level editor was more entertaining than the game itself, and so he wanted to play with that idea and make it into something other people could enjoy.
If he had never played a video game or even worked on one, we would not have had Sim City, The Sims, or SPORE's amazing creature creator.
Ignorance does not breed innovation. Functional fixation does not breed innovation.
Knowledge and open-minded theory application are the keys to creative invention.
First let me say that I am an ex Red 5 Studios, Blizzard, and Origin Programmer / Designer so I know a LOT about the internals of MMO's. With that, here is my plan... "The Paradoxical Plan" for my MMO Futures.
I have taken it upon myself to reinvent this genre by reinventing the way a video game company works. My first change is the new term GGU for Gargantuan Game Universe vs. Massively Multiplayer Online. Think of it as the Anarchy Online model of one server versus multiple "Shards" or "Servers", whatever your brand is calling them.
I am doing something I believe (I may be wrong though) that no one else has done. I am putting all my design, programming, hr, and any future docs for the development of this game on the net. I want other game studios to rip us off so other people know they stole something from us. A clear and presense of who came up with what. We may have come up with the idea, but you implemented it better than us, that's cool, but as a programmer and designer I want a track record... So I am starting one. I encourage other companies to SHOW they are not greedy like this. I dare them to. This is how I am planning and, "crosses-fingers" will get a successful company that isn't about making money but about making great games the players want to make.
Below is a link to my personal forums. It includes things such as my religion, psychic and supernatural phenomenon that I have seen, stories from the video game industry, sexual and profane material, so it is an 18+ site. (I haven't checked the legal issues of this, I am just being cautious.)
www.spiraledsouls.com/
Go to that link, agree to go to the forms. (Sorry for redirecting people from your forums to mine, but I encourage them to stay here!) Or open another tab, drink a jolt, and join me in the world of video game development.
Go to the VAIN17 forum to find the link to my design docs and such and I dare you to code them faster than me. lol.
-Jenuine "Daniel" Lee Buckler
-Jenuine "Daniel" Lee
I find it interesting that this article discusses that the industry needs a reboot and what it would take to have a new kind of MMORPG made... when there is one already listed on this very site that is under development to do that very thing. The game is changing much of what is normal in the clone MMOs we play.
I became interested in the game when I read the forums here and learned that it is not a grind MMO game. There are no monsters that pop back into existance to kill over and over. The world is not static, time moves on the world changes every day. Monsters and NPCs live lives, have agendas. Player actions can affect changes in the world. Players live personal stories and don't do the same little dumb quests that everyone else does. NPCs don't stand around and hand out the same quests to all players. Quests are big fantasy novel style non-linear adventures that differ for each player based on the players actions during the quests. And much more.
Sure, it's not done, and from what they have said, still early in graphics (though far in technology and design). But... it is an innnovative new MMO that breaks the mold. Perhaps you should ask the devs at MMO Magic what it is taking to make a new kind of MMO? The game is Citadel of Sorcery, and yes, I'm a big fan, but this is exactly the kind of game this article is about, and it is being made now.
There's nothing to discuss! To "reboot'', designers should simply come up with a new way to conceive quests and questing.
And the genre will be "re-imagined"... they simply have to see quests outside of their "box" and wow's box. Personally, modesty aside, I can come up with 20 new ways to do quests(as generic concept of doing tasks). What about reversing the quest concept? The routine says you take a quest from a damn NPC with his DAMN exclamation mark, and then you go to the cued place. What if you just pass by places, "do something" to them, so in a way you assign yourself a task, then you summarize what you have done, your "achievements", not as in how many rats' testicles you've collected naturally, but for example what building you destroyed, which person you killed, if you extinguished fire, irrigated a field, then you go to an NPC whose profession feels linked to what you did, a hunter, a farmer, vendor, trader, and SEE if your custom "voluntary" quest gives rewards, with a calculation of relevance.
Just an idea.
Beside questing everythng is secondary, character progression is the activity we do the most, and obviously it's the one that determines the game's "personality", if it's either a clone of WoW-subgenre or not.
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take a game like the old SWG (i dont care if you dont want to hear about swg).
Take the crafting and resource gathering it had then. Instead of making the player log into the game and walk around each planet, design a browser based interface that players could just open their browser, log in, and see each planet. From there they could still manually sample each spot on the planet to find the highest concentration. Then either place and gather resources from the browser as well, or put in an order for a player in game to do it. Offering payment of whatever, cash, % of the take, special xp that the in game player could use for whatever.
Make it so the browser player gets additional perks for having friends to help or as neighbors or whatever.
let crafters use the browser too. To craft, advertise, search prices, restock vendors, ect..make it so they get additional bonus for getting friends to help or be nieghbors. Let them place orders for in game players to transfer goods, or supply looted materials.
Make money from advertising or small fee's that could be bypassed by getting more friends to help or be neighbors. give them game time credits if they ever want to sub to the real game, where they could view and decorate their shops. Charge higher prices, bypass the need to pay for work orders to be filled by players. You could even have set prices that browser users must use to control inflation and supply standard equipment so it's always available to newer players for good prices. or let in game players sell bad resources to them because they get perks for having more browser friends that let them condense large amounts of crap into very tiny amounts of good resources only usable in the browser, or they can pay to bypass this and re-sell in game at set prices. or sub and sell them for whatever to whoever. But these kind of abilities are from gaining new friends in the browser portion. So someone could just use a browser alt, but they would still have to bring in friends to gain abilities.
Allow the browser crafter to pay a lower sub to alter their browser char to a crafting only char only access crafting skills in game..no combat.
Just generic ideas off the top of my head, but the more in depth systems you have, the more groups you could target and offer web based clients to. the more people you get to play there, the more people will switch over to subscriptions. The more your game will be acceptable to the masses, NOT accessable only.
Now this might not get 10 million subs, but it might get you 100k more, or keep your game supplied with new people.
Why make an entirely new free web based mmo thats free to play and try to tempt them to buying things they don't want, instead of easing them into an already made cash cow, and doing so because they and their friends want to.
Obviously there are alot of things wrong with what i suggested, but they're just suggestions. I know it wouldnt work as described above. But it's an idea, rather than following SOE down the shitter. It would be rather easy to experiement instaed of designing a game based off your spying abilities and horrible marketing.(except blizz, they know how to do both:))
Chaeper than buying a company and hoping they can reproduce their success when no one else can.
It would be free-basing inspiration to current designers too if they could get something like that started. The different ways to do it are endless.
Spelling and grammer errors are there for a reason if anyone bothers to read this drivel.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Thanks for the reply, and I agree. I didn't know that about Icarus. I bought FE and started playing it, but exploration is a huge gaming feature for me (I learned) and the desert southwest as presented in FE was too boring to hold my interest. I wish them well in their plans to make an MMO creation platform.
Spore: I followed Spore for a long time before launch, and became interested in the methods they used to program it. Namely, the procedural generation / procedural animation which was used. That technology has the potential to really level the playing field for smaller game developers as it matures. One of the biggest expenses and time sinks in game dev is the art assets. Being able to "generate" most those assets with code rather than create them manually could save millions on a large MMO, especially when you need to populate huge game maps with natural looking terrain, flora and fauna.
Check out this indy game in development that is almost all procedurally generated. It's a real trip:
http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html
I used to follow FE back before they abandoned certain core elements of the original game design which in my mind removed a lot of the fun factor for me personally and also doomed the game to general mediocrity. So I know about the platform stuff. I suspect if FE had been more successful so would everyone else by now. But I don't think it's quite lived up to their expectations of being a good showcase MMO for their product.
That indy game looks interesting... Not sure about the artwork though - it'd be like playing an mmo inside a Monet.