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Themepark or Sandbox
bacaloubaca
Member Posts: 35
I was reading a few blogs today written by mmo players and I came across this paragraph:
However the biggest problem plaguing sandbox mmo's is lack of direction and drive. Even though the games have endless potential, when it comes to the players having to do everything for themselves it becomes a little too much. Especially for the casual player such as myself, I like to come home and log on with goals set, and some clear progression to accomplish. I don't know if I could come home from work and have to try and invent something to keep me entertained. (http://www.ensidia.net/community/blogs/92.html)
I think, for me, this hits the nail right on the head. I am a casual player. I don't want to decide what to do, where to go, how to progress in my game world -- I do that 10 hours a day at my job in the real world. My themepark world is where I go to relax.
Why do YOU choose the themepark or the sandbox. Discuss.
Playing: DDO, LOTRO, UO
Favorites: UO, DAoC, Asheron's Call
Waiting For: Nothing
Comments
I freaking hate the casual argument against sandbox games.
Always some player that says he/she has a life and can't do this or can't do that in a sandbox game.
News flash people playing casually only means you can't devote all your time to mmos.
Who made this rule that sandbox mmos can't be played a few hours a week?
Why can't I work on my skills here and there? why can't I explore on my own time? why can't I pvp when I log in?
Suddenly I decide to play a sandbox MMO and can't find the time to run a mission/quest?
It's all bullshit people.
Sandbox games require the same amout of time as a themepark game.
I spent 6 days a week, 4-5+ hours a day raiding in Both EQ and WoW (themepark MMOs) and in Eve I am just satisfied playing 5-15 hours a week in a sandbox game.
Being a casual only means it takes longer to reach certain goals not that a game is impossible to enjoy with that kind of schedule.
Seriously guys its all crap. That dude who wrote that blog is an idiot.
To answer you OP, If i had two good MMOs to play I would say both. I'm casual and that's never stopped me from having a good time even in a hardcore mmo like Eve.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
As a casual i would actually prefer a sandbox. there is no levelling treadmill to fall behind on. UO was a wonderful game besides the pking.
I consider Second Life to be the ultimate sandbox MMO. That said, I'm sometimes at a loss for something to do. I explore a lot and when I explore, I usually find something to do or someone to talk to.
There's a lot to be said for themepark games.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
GARRRR
Not another one.
If we had a merge of all these topics, I swear it would be close to 100 pages.
IN ANY CASE, I usually choose sandbox just because I like the freedom and I like knowing that I don't have to depend on levels to tell what I can kill.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
I agree with the comment passed by the OP. Some players don't find the freedom conducive to their playstyle. However, the conclusion drawn that there can't be casual play in a sandbox seems far fetched.
To me sandboxy games are great for casual play. There are no expectations on the player, so no way to fail to meet expectations. Find something to do that's entertaining and do it. If nothing seems entertaining, then the player isn't a very good match for the game.
If the player and game aren't a good match, that's hardly the fault of the game. The player picked the game, not vice-versa.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
I had no problem finding stuff to do in SWG pre-CU. I could decide on my way home from work what direction i would take when i logged in when i got home. If i should gain XP for my professions, go hunting, PvP, try another profession, maybe some guildie had something fun on the way that i could join. Crafting? Combat? RP? The choices was endless. And i wasnt spoonfed content and had to follow a linear questline or do the same dungeon over and over and over and over again to get some nice shiny gear.
I enjoyed that freedom to play the game just the way i wanted, whenever i wanted with whomever i wanted. IMO it cant be more casual friendly than that.
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
i'm a casual player myself, and i would choose a sandbox over theme park any day. I enjoy the challenge of making my own path and goals
I had no problem finding stuff to do in SWG pre-CU. I could decide on my way home from work what direction i would take when i logged in when i got home. If i should gain XP for my professions, go hunting, PvP, try another profession, maybe some guildie had something fun on the way that i could join. Crafting? Combat? RP? The choices was endless. And i wasnt spoonfed content and had to follow a linear questline or do the same dungeon over and over and over and over again to get some nice shiny gear.
I enjoyed that freedom to play the game just the way i wanted, whenever i wanted with whomever i wanted. IMO it cant be more casual friendly than that.
Well sure SWG had a good amount of freedom, the problem was making those fun. Which most of the time were not. I'll give you crafting, crafting was not to bad. I don't RP, so no comment.
Sandbox is a generalization, as is the OP and most of the replies. Different games have different methods, different games have different objectives but all of them have different means to make your own way to those objectives.
Sandbox description sounds amazing to many people, but at the end of the day it's no less of a general title than FPS, MMO, RPG. Companies have different ideas and projected dreams about each game they make, sandbox is no different. Do what you want and when you want... but within the structure of a game. Just because something is described as such doesnt mean it is for you.
If you love sandbox type games make sure that you read up on the particular title to make sure that what it can provide is what you want to spend up to years in. Nothing is infinite and every budget requires restrictions.
This is the problem with your kind and sandboxes;
~You log in and can't figure out what to do, without be told what to do~
As an example of my kind of player-mentality, going into EVE I knew what the game offered, and from that I knew what I wanted to do... and that's basically anything but mining. I had a good time with it, but I spend far more time with Wurm now (another game you need to figure it out in). I see a lot of people enter these games and ask "what should I do?" - and beyond helpful noob hints to get you up and doing things - NOBODY is going to be able to tell you what you should spend every moment doing, because the sandbox style is to make YOU do that. I got plenty to do in Wurm, making houses, terraforming, mining... all of it because I can *visualize* what I want done in it. Other players can't do that no matter how hard they try, and end up asking "what is the point of this game?" when it's ever-obvious to hundred and thousands of others.
The point is that you are given the tools to whatever you want in these games, go anywhere, but nobody can figure out what the hell they want to DO. It's like those that log in WoW and have tons of set-goals, written out in a neat little quest journal for them, and yet still cave under the pressure of making a decision... these kinds of gamers kill it for everyone else because they scream "lack of content" when they are completely oblivious to what can be done.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Sandbox is my preference, so long as teh crafting is good... and it would be even better if the game wasn't level focused at all. Falling behind my guildmates or friends in games is the biggest killer of enjoyment I experience. I hate solo play, so if I worked odd hours and they went off and levelled without me because they were bored, then I had to do things I really didn't enjoy just to catch up. Saps the fun out of a game like mad.
I prefer sandbox style games, but they also need direction to keep me playing long term. I'm playing EVE right now and enjoying it immensely. The end game in EVE is to own or control space in 0.0 (direction) but you have the freedom to choose how or where you do it.
Theme park - When you just want a game to spend some time.
Snadbox - If want more involving and deep gameplay, a virtual world, simulation.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
What argument? I never made any value judgment about whether one type was better than the other. I merely stated why I prefer a themepark type game over a sandbox -- for me. I also asked for a discussion about why people play one or the other, not which one is better. Show me where I said themeparks were better than sandboxes.
I also never made any allusion that themeparks took more time than sandboxes. I merely described why I prefer a themepark game after a long day of making decisions at my job. My job requires me to make very important decisions and take actions which can have a huge impact on a lot of people ALL DAY LONG. I enjoy playing MMOs but doing this very same thing in a game is the last thing I want to do when I sit down to relax, which is why I generally play themepark games.
You made up an argument because you chose to hear what you wanted to hear from the post and then called the blogger an idiot based on the same misinformation. The last paragraph in your post was all anyone really needed to hear. The rest was an argument just for the sake of arguing and to give you an excuse to needlessly call someone names.
I know that disrespect, name-calling, and trolling are all business as usual on mmorpg.com, but come on, you are capable of growing up just a little bit, don't you think?
Playing: DDO, LOTRO, UO
Favorites: UO, DAoC, Asheron's Call
Waiting For: Nothing
Did you even read the post?
Playing: DDO, LOTRO, UO
Favorites: UO, DAoC, Asheron's Call
Waiting For: Nothing
This is not the only endgame in EvE. There is also the marketing side of EvE and that involves Being a succsessfull component maker controlling several Player owned statins producing needed parts for the other Endgame in Manufacturing which is assembling several final products and cornering the market.
Another endgame is in mining and that involves having a dedicated mining team with a mining capital ship mining in 0.0 for an alliance and raking in cash in the process.
Another endgame is to Trade between NPC stations and Player built Outposts selling hard to get goods to those who need them in 0.0
As to the idea that one thing about themepark games is that its easy to quickly find something to do applies to a well made sandbox game such as in EvE. You just have to think in the longer term, for example you could decide to gather resources or NPC or trade as examples. All thing you can do imediatly and with a long term goal you will know long before logging in what you need to do.
For example you want to PvP but be more than a frigate with a jammer as part of a Wolfpack [in EvE a wolfpack is a small groupe of ships hunting vulnerable ships consisting of several cheap support ships such as jammers and some shooty centred ships], so you decide what ship to aim for, in this example we shall say you like jamming [the mage role in EvE] but want a bigger role in this area so you decide to go for a Blackbird cruiser for its decent pro jamming slot layout and the basic bonuses you get with that ship. So therefore your long term goal would be to earn the cash to afford one [most corps would get you one for free] and to not only get good at the practicle side of jamming by joining many wolfpacks but to also focus on the right skill learning. this will give you plenty of instant goals for at least 2 months.
And then later on you chose your next goal [like jamming still so is there a better ship i can use? or want to change goals to something else]. In a decent sandbox its about setting goals.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Why do MMO fans care so much about what other people play .Why should one style be pick over another i never hear people who play FPS complain about third person shooters or Action Rpg players complain about turn base role playing games.You like Sandboxes fine i hope they make couple good games of that type,You like theme parks i hope they make couple of good games of that type.
The market is big enough for theme parks,sandboxes and hybrid theme park/sandbox games.I don't favor any one type except for good games.Right now they are no great sandboxes they are average ones like Darkfall,Fallen earth,and soon MO,there is a good one EvE but they is no great sandbox game.Their is great theme park in game in WoW and many game good and average theme park games.
It would be good industry to have great Sandbox but if you are making a game and spend 100 million to make.You want to make it back.If you are Sandbox fan you to realize that Sandboxes normal come with full looting or free for all pvp which turn off a large set of gamers.If you are company is just not a smart decision to make a big money sandbox and purposely lose players and make less money when you can make the same game with some rules and get a large player base.I hope some company decide to spend real money on trying to make great sandbox game but if you where making a game which one are you picking the format which would you pick
-11 million subs
- 3.5 million subs
-800,000 subs at one point
-700,000 subs at one point
or
After four years 300,000 subs.
A great sandbox would awesome but i am pretty sure Bill Gates walks up to and says here is a 100 million dollars but there is one catch you have to make a mmorpg and what ever profits you make are yours to keep,I wonder how people would make a sandbox game? A would love to a sandbox game with War or Aion budget but we all understand somewhat why that does not happen.Sorry about the small rant.
Did you even read the post?
Yes, you said you don't want to have to think about what to do and would rather be told to. I'm telling you it has nothing to do with your "worklife" and everything to do with your lack of initiative. My problem is that people look at sandboxes as lacking content, when there is usually tons of tools at your disposal to waste time with. It's not my fault some people simply can't think for themselves, and I've been in tons of sandbox games with people that have no idea what to do with their time having to hold their hand and play the game for them. I am absolutely sure these people, including you, stare at a full quest log in a typical MMO and still have no idea how to spend your time.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Theme park =
"Press this button to have fun"
"But what if it isn't fun"
"then press the one after that and keep going until one is fun"
Sandbox =
"Build your own buttons that you like and press them"
Most gamers today have the attention span of a gnat and therefore want to play the theme park because doing it yourself seems too hard and boring for them as they lose focus quickly. With more kids playing, instant gratification has become more and more popular in my opinion.
I prefer sandbox, because being forced into doing quests and put into a grind until level X is about as fun as eating broken glass whilst listening to Cheryl Cole sing.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Actually i think the reason most new gamers buy and stick with themepark MMO's is because such games are more common and the have a higher profile [such as most retail boxes are for themepark games and games like WoW advertise more]. And once you play a theme park mmo it becomes the style you associate to a mmo and when you see a sandbox game its like WTF!!! what am i supposed to do? where is the first quest giver? and i just finished the quests and now im sitting here with no idea where the next one is? this game has nothing to do im returning to my main mmo.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
So, to reply to the OP - I prefer sandbox-style.
WARNING!! WHAT FOLLOWS IS A WALL OF TEXT!! CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!
With that out of the way, I'll look to expound somewhat the reasons for this preference. While it seems the OP has a job where he is the one in charge / control of things with far-reaching implications hinging on every decision; I however do not have such a job. My job has me following dictated tasks and time-frames / deadlines set by someone else. Even the approaches to the tasks are pre-determined. So, it seems I would be working for the OP... : )
But to attempt to take the other side of his example, I prefer sandbox for the exact opposite reason that he prefers theme-park; I want to be in control of how and when I tackle the tasks put before me. I play these theme-park games and must /sigh fairly frequently because the quests I have are too much like work - Go here; do this; come back here with this. Rinse; repeat. I have no impact, no significance in that world because everyone is doing the SAME thing I am and if I decide to do something outside of the formulaic quests - I am rewarded with severly limited progression of my character compared to the quest-running errand boys/girls.
I want to be able to just go out and do my own thing when I'm looking to relax or unwind; I don't want or need some NPC harranging me to perform this or that task. There's too much handholding in too many MMOs. I come from a PnPRPG background which aside from the graphics not being as nice as I'd like sometimes, : ) is the ULTIMATE sandbox experience. Completing quests in that setting is totally up to you, and how creative you can be with the resources / limitations you have.
SWG was a great game for me. I went out and did what I wanted. Harvested resources to sell to crafters; bought a house and placed it in a cool locale; took out some Rebel bases for cash; hunted a few bounties etc. In MY opinion, it's the sandbox style that is a more rewarding experience for more players because they get more out of inter-social recognition. Players can usually do things in sandbox-style games that are just impossible in theme-park games, (go ahead and build a house in WoW and I'll give you $100. : ) If you had a great crafter char in SWG you would have a reputation as such, not from grinding out rep quests, but from actual players who told other players that you made good stuff. THAT is an achievement! One that leaves you w/ fonder memories of a game than does running rep dailies and getting to exalted and nobody noticing, because EVERYONE is doing the same thing.
I'm ranting now, I apologize. The point is that I can appreciate the OPs point of view at least with regard to how he likes to unwind / relax after a long day @ work, which just so happens to be my workday. You unwind by doing something that is eerily similar to my job; and I unwind doing something eerily similar to yours. We should just switch jobs and we'd both be happy!
(Assuming the salaries were comprable of course. ; )
I agree to that fully. Having started in UO and then SWG for a looong time, I expect a deep experience that has neverending content, and my fav parts being housing/deco/collection. Once I started playing other games they just didn't do it for me and felt extremely shallow.
The difference between a themepark and sandbox is that the latter is more of a cohesive world than a game. You don't play it, you play *in* it.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Oh, and in reference to the actual thread, I prefer hybrids. I don't want the linearity of a purely themepark game, as that just feels small and cramped. Nor do I want the huge and aimless free-roaming virtual world of a sandbox, as that just feels empty and pointless.
Give me a sandbox with themepark content inside it, and I'll be a happer camper. Well, not exactly .. I hate camping spawns, but well, you get the point.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I agree to that fully. Having started in UO and then SWG for a looong time, I expect a deep experience that has neverending content, and my fav parts being housing/deco/collection. Once I started playing other games they just didn't do it for me and felt extremely shallow.
The difference between a themepark and sandbox is that the latter is more of a cohesive world than a game. You don't play it, you play *in* it.
Yea my fist mmo was Neocron [crappy game with classes and levels but it did have skills and implants] my secon was eve.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Actually, it's more like this:
Theme park =
"press this button"
"But what if it isn't fun?"
"find a new game where it is fun"
...
"oh wow, pressing this button is awesome, cool"
Sandbox =
"Build your own buttons that you like and press them"
"Eh, I guess that's cool.. I think the themepark button was better overall though"