You don't have to be a dev to recognize a crap game.
No one said anything about recognizing the quality of a game. The topic was how games can end up at crap quality.
You're clearly unsatisfied with the MMO genre. So instead of complaining on forums, waiting for someone else to "fix" things, I invite you to raise a budget, assemble a team, set up a studio, create a design, schedule out the tasks resulting from that design, and implement on time and on budget.
What, that sounds like a lot of work? And you're not qualified to undertake something like that? Then what makes you an authority on how people carry out any of those jobs?
An opinion is one thing, but when you so effortlessly lay accusations and blame in situations (the development of MMO games) that you clearly have no actual first-hand knowledge of, you're just being a jackass.
Walk through that tunnel, come out the other side, and then tell me you have the answers.
They know where the money is. We all do. Some might say "Why do they all want WoW-level returns?" If you went to the bank and they offered you two different types of accounts, "This one pays out 0.25% interest, but it makes a specific group of people around here happy. This other one returns 7.5%, but the thing is, those people don't really enjoy hearing about those accounts." Seriously, where is your money going?
Of course people want those returns and the reason for those posts isn't because people don't understand that companies want those kinds of returns, it's that they understand that they aren't going to get those returns. But, what game in the industry actually can get those returns besides Blizzard?
Using your bank scenario, what if the bank told you that you only have a 0.25% chance of getting that 7.5% return but you have a 90% chance of getting the 0.25% return and possibly much much more, are you still going to take the 7.5% or are you going to take the 0.25%?
I really wonder who the hell does this market research honestly. WoW has alot of accounts, yeah great we all know that. But, who else does? From what I can tell, the biggest player in the pay to play genre who isn't WoW is EVE Online. A fully sandbox, open world PVP game. It's an indy game that beats the hell out of all the triple A competitors. The game has been around forever, sure. But, being a forum troll and an MMO junkie for years, I have probably seen thousands of people say that the only reason they don't play EVE Online, is because they have no avatar and can't form a connection to their character. Oh, but the game is still number 2? What happened to the market research there?
So, I'm sorry if I didn't take anything from what you wrote. If you're what you say you are, I respect that and I would love to be you. Perhaps, if I was I would be saying the same thing. But the only thing I took from all that you wrote, was the you hire guys who claim to do "Market Research" who probably don't know a damn thing about games or what players want. No matter how much developers want it to be, this genre is not the single player market. It's a completely different being from any other market in gaming.
I would not generalize that 'all' MMO players are dev-haters or trolling witch-hunters trying to bash the dev team any chance they get.
I certainly don't think I 'know it all' or could do it better.. but as an active player who does spend a fair amount of time researching issues and playing the system, I do try to contribute a players perpective on certain 'sucky' issues.
From my observations, you simply cannot expect to get it perfect right out of the gate... as no product is ever truely 'perfect'.. no amount of money or time is going to replace kind of feedback that thousands upon thousands of hours of overall player time can do in a few short months.
I don't think reasonable players have a hard time grasping the concept of why things get cut back or delayed or pushed out a earlier than intended and don't work perfectly. Most players just care if the game is fun and if the bugs don't create unsurmountable issues or cheat them out of game content.
Forums are way to confrontational.. its unfortunate but its simply the nature of the beast. Still.. if your able to sift through the mud.. you find gem players who enjoy the 'hobby' of learning the dev-created game mechanics and get to a player-based level of understanding that can provide substantial feedback on how to correct or at least identify a /sucky element.
MMO's are big, complicated code beasts with potentially thousands of individual players and expectations all seeking their own game adventure. A lot of players DO get that.. wheras Forum trolls don't really care.. its just about hitting 'reply' to argue something anyway.
Articles like this are good reminders as to why something might fall short of our personal expectations. I can live with that.. or try another product... in the end I don't invest anywhere near the time and money the publisher does.. so I can afford to walk away from any MMO at any time I feel like it.
Players are renters after all.. character investment is a falicy.. you don't own anything.. your just renting the opportunity to use the system to interact with other players.
You'd better enjoy the interaction or put your money somewhere else right?
I think the article and almost everyone else is eluding that MMOs are games which keep development over time even after release. Sure, an MMO sucks now, but will it keep sucking? The common gamer mentality is to think 'yes' because most games are static. But MMOs are not, and everything might change within a year of release or so. It could also be the other way around (at least for many); look at Star Wars Galaxies. That certain MMOs suck isn't set in stone, not in the very least, and witch-hunting and its implied pressure has the positive aspect of making the companies try harder, because if they victimize themselves, if they say 'no one is at fault' so we gamers keep silent and disengage from those games we love, then no one wins - the MMO keeps sucking, and we do nothing about it.
The thing is, devs take these things too personally. They have to realize these games are reaching possibly hundreds of thousands of people, or at least tens of thousands. It's your work, and it will be criticized and destroyed as well as praised; this is no high-school project for your friends and family, and you should face that fact with responsibility, because sure, even if things get out of your direct hands, it's still something YOU are developing. NO ONE ELSE can make it right. Blame the publishers and the money-grabbers all you want, but if you let the criticism personally affect you, then you shouldn't be working in such a public medium. Stop trying to evade these things; buckle up and face your audience with dignity.
Originally posted by Dev4ALiving No one said anything about recognizing the quality of a game. The topic was how games can end up at crap quality. You're clearly unsatisfied with the MMO genre. So instead of complaining on forums, waiting for someone else to "fix" things, I invite you to raise a budget, assemble a team, set up a studio, create a design, schedule out the tasks resulting from that design, and implement on time and on budget.
What, that sounds like a lot of work? And you're not qualified to undertake something like that? Then what makes you an authority on how people carry out any of those jobs? An opinion is one thing, but when you so effortlessly lay accusations and blame in situations (the development of MMO games) that you clearly have no actual first-hand knowledge of, you're just being a jackass. Walk through that tunnel, come out the other side, and then tell me you have the answers.
I don't have to be an authority, nor even make unsubstantiated claims of being one.
I make my posts and give my opinions. You are free to argue with them. Claiming some moral superiority through some unproven claim of expertise is irrelevant and merely an attempt to stifle debate.
Resorting to childish name-calling isn't making your posts any more convincing.
I can smell well enough to tell when something is crap, and I know that game companies have profit as #1 concern - not quality games. The latter is just one way of achieving the former.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think this is a good article - informative and a good read.
Generating sparks of brilliance between the design and talent folks is pretty easy, but once you add the guy with the purse strings it almost always changes into something a lot less fun and sparky. Suddenly there are rules and contracts to sign, promises to keep (or lies to tell) and you can't wait until that guy goes off into his corner somewhere.
Down the road, he becomes relevant again and at some point he never goes away. He is a huge part of the audience you're selling to, and you need to keep him happy. In the fine balancing act of bringing ideas to market, the guy with the money is a deal maker or breaker. Until you can satisfy him it's a scramble. But if you can make him happy as well as your target audience, you have achieved WIN.
They know where the money is. We all do. Some might say "Why do they all want WoW-level returns?" If you went to the bank and they offered you two different types of accounts, "This one pays out 0.25% interest, but it makes a specific group of people around here happy. This other one returns 7.5%, but the thing is, those people don't really enjoy hearing about those accounts." Seriously, where is your money going?
Honestly If I had the opportunity to make others happy because of my actions I would make them happy because then I can go to bed happy and proud knowing that I didn't choose money over people and I made a difference. So by what you have said most game developers don't care about what the players what they care about where the money is at. There are a few developers who don't follow the money and make games how they want it and to please their players not their wallets. Take Bioware for example when EA bought them they essentially told them you will not touch our games we make them the way we want them and how players expect them and we don't want you ruining that. That's not exactly what they said but its essentially what they said.
So how come game developers such as the ones who made EVE or even Darkfall decide to do something different, knowing it may fail, they do it for the players they see forums such as these, see what the players are crying for and attempt to make something they may enjoy even if its only a few players.
I think the world as a whole needs to stop worrying about making more money and start worrying about making people happy.
Now I'm not trying to say its the devs fault because its probably not, I just don't think Devs truly care about the players, no offense to you. That's my 2 cents.
Some blame the devs, and some of that can be true, but who I like to blame is those who give the dev's their marching orders. Orders come down from the top and the devs have to do what they are told, unless in some cases they think they are god. I can use a few examples SWG - Helious, LOTRO - Orion. When you have devs like those with the atitude of what I am doing is the way it needs to be despite what the comunity thinks that is when things get sucky.
Oh and then lets do talk balance. When you program something and you not its way over power, leave it that way for 2 years, then go omg its game breaking then fix it, yes players get way upset. DOn't code stuff that makes things way over power, like for instance RK's in lotro everybody knew they were op and that was a fact, now after a year they hend out nerfs. When you program something so far out of balance and then fix it thats when things suck.
Players hate nerf's of any kind so you need to think about what your doing in the first place so as not to nerf the player down later.
Players like a chalange, but they dont want it to be insane on the hard side either. Take for instance Dark Delvings in lotro, that thing was imposible to beat in normal mode so folks went and they exploited it there were 5 distink exploits.. Then 6 months after the fact the beefed up the instance took out 4/6 exploits and made it impossible to beat again. Guess what players figured out the hole and exploited it every night until SOM arived. Now they all just run the one easy instance GS over and over and over.
So players dont want stuff to easy, and they dont want it to hard, but when you make it insane they will expliot it.
So I blame both devs and management for making a sucky game. And even the company sometimes. Just look at NCSOFT or Cryptic you mention those names and its a huge turn off for folks, due to how they run things.
I have played and still do play several games online. .. I think it really boils down to what YOU want in a game. if you want tradeskilling and houses to fill with furniture. . . play the games that allow youto do that. If you want flying mounts. . . well go play that game. If you like to stand around dance and do PVP. . . there are several to choose from and at that point it comes down to the fashion if you happen to be of the female persuasion.
I like the houses and the tradeskilling and the dancing. I could care less for grinding levels, PVP and flying mounts.
There was one game I tried though and I thought it truely did suck. It had notheing to do withmy playing ability. . .. it had everyhting to do withthe type of person it was aimed at. The game is LINEAGE II . . .as far as I am conerned it is the worst game in the world. Maybe not the worst game the world. It is a heavy grind for Adena and level. . . . I mean when a fluff hat with a feather in it costs 140,000,000 Adena. . . . ummmm. . . .. I can play better games than that and choose to go to the "marketplace" and pay $10.00 real money for a better hat. . . . .
Thank you very much. . .but some games do truely suck.
I make my posts and give my opinions. You are free to argue with them. Claiming some moral superiority through some unproven claim of expertise is irrelevant and merely an attempt to stifle debate. Resorting to childish name-calling isn't making your posts any more convincing. I can smell well enough to tell when something is crap, and I know that game companies have profit as #1 concern - not quality games. The latter is just one way of achieving the former.
Debates are based on facts. So far all you've said is "I don't believe it.". Which I believe is a fact. But that's all you got. I've stated a number of factors that I am aware of through direct experience and contribute to the situation which should be considered in an analysis. I don't know it all, nor do I expect I ever will. But I know some.
So, in the spirit of free exchange, what's your opinion on:
* a MMO investor's right to have influence over the development of the product?
* a development house's right to pursue the means with which to pay their employees despite that it might not satisfy YOUR aesthetic tastes?
* the right of a share in a free market to hold a comparable level of influence on said market (most popular movement calls the first shot, followed by second most popular, etc, all the way down to tiny niche)
Great, you can smell a turd. You are a singularly blessed individual. Back to my previous question. Are you just going to keep complaining that someone hasn't come along and wiped your backside or are you going to learn how it's done and change your pants yourself?
Also, this isn't completely directed at you, but a company isn't a single entity. When you say "companies have profit as their #1 concern" you are right, if you mean some individuals in a company. And the rest of us care too, just to a lesser extent, because in order to do what we love for a living, we need to make a living. I'm sure there are people who would love to work on whatever your dream game may be, but not if it means they have to sacrifice their lives and families for it, especially when another game allows them to do it all. Most people involved in making games are amenable to creating all sorts of games, not locked on one dream-like ideal of a specific game.
To Hatter:
Your point is taken on the bank analogy. I think your example is closer to the truth, although the actual numbers probably make it seem like less of a slam dunk in either direction. Higher return is obviously going to be greater risk, but guys who have the means to risk a million plus aren't likely interested in a 2% return. So to get the money, a developer has to explore options that can be both artistically satisfying and also convince someone that the risk is worth it, usually by making SOME game choices that sweeten the projected return for an investor. And to that end, people who actually work on the game are rarely the ones courting investors, so sometimes you get told you have a chance to work on an idea that is only 75% of the game you'd like to make in a perfect world. Most of us can roll with that.
Also, someone else said something to the effect of "grow a thicker skin". You are so right. There is a reason i didn't have an account until today. And that was to keep me from giving in to temptation and getting involved in endless internet arguments. Truth is people will believe what they want to believe and anything I have to offer is only an opinion. Can't fix a forum squall.
They know where the money is. We all do. Some might say "Why do they all want WoW-level returns?" If you went to the bank and they offered you two different types of accounts, "This one pays out 0.25% interest, but it makes a specific group of people around here happy. This other one returns 7.5%, but the thing is, those people don't really enjoy hearing about those accounts." Seriously, where is your money going?
Of course people want those returns and the reason for those posts isn't because people don't understand that companies want those kinds of returns, it's that they understand that they aren't going to get those returns. But, what game in the industry actually can get those returns besides Blizzard?
Using your bank scenario, what if the bank told you that you only have a 0.25% chance of getting that 7.5% return but you have a 90% chance of getting the 0.25% return and possibly much much more, are you still going to take the 7.5% or are you going to take the 0.25%?
I really wonder who the hell does this market research honestly. WoW has alot of accounts, yeah great we all know that. But, who else does? From what I can tell, the biggest player in the pay to play genre who isn't WoW is EVE Online. A fully sandbox, open world PVP game. It's an indy game that beats the hell out of all the triple A competitors. The game has been around forever, sure. But, being a forum troll and an MMO junkie for years, I have probably seen thousands of people say that the only reason they don't play EVE Online, is because they have no avatar and can't form a connection to their character. Oh, but the game is still number 2? What happened to the market research there?
So, I'm sorry if I didn't take anything from what you wrote. If you're what you say you are, I respect that and I would love to be you. Perhaps, if I was I would be saying the same thing. But the only thing I took from all that you wrote, was the you hire guys who claim to do "Market Research" who probably don't know a damn thing about games or what players want. No matter how much developers want it to be, this genre is not the single player market. It's a completely different being from any other market in gaming.
Also, this isn't completely directed at you, but a company isn't a single entity. When you say "companies have profit as their #1 concern" you are right, if you mean some individuals in a company. And the rest of us care too, just to a lesser extent, because in order to do what we love for a living, we need to make a living. I'm sure there are people who would love to work on whatever your dream game may be, but not if it means they have to sacrifice their lives and families for it, especially when another game allows them to do it all. Most people involved in making games are amenable to creating all sorts of games, not locked on one dream-like ideal of a specific game. yadda, yadda, yadda
Also, someone else said something to the effect of "grow a thicker skin". You are so right. There is a reason i didn't have an account until today. And that was to keep me from giving in to temptation and getting involved in endless internet arguments. Truth is people will believe what they want to believe and anything I have to offer is only an opinion. Can't fix a forum squall.
Oh I like this guy!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No one, especially in business wants to do a bad crap piece of work. It doesn't look good on the resume (for one reason) and the only reason one would want to do garbage work is so that one can claim all the expenses for the failure at the end of the tax year. But this doesn't take away the anger and resentment of the employees at the managers who let this happen. Both in terms of pride of work and loss of employment. And profitable meaning successful is a means to an end to make money by having a successful game. There are easier ways to lose money in this world than making MMO's.
Does this mean the consumer is the reason? Yes and no. The failure of MMO designers to make games that the consumers want can be based on bad intel gathered on the consumers or an unrealistic assumption on the part of consumers as to what they want the MMO to be. You can't please all the people out in the hinterlands who want A,B, and C for their MMO and make sure it works with current technology and for a low price per month! The most you can do is fight for your market share and try to keep costs down so you'll have money to make improvments for your upcoming builds in the coming months/years.
I'm sure, looking at the posts so far, that all the...consumers will want to blame the developers for all the MMO's that suck. But each one dying out there is taking someone's dreams with it. So before sticking out a finger and saying "J'accuse!" at all the MMO creators out there. Try seeing it from their point of view first, will ya?
"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." Neitzsche
Game Devs are nerds who think they are rock stars. Rock stars don't ask their fans how to write songs or play guitar.
a) yes they do, they just don't do it as overtly. it's done though market research.
b) I'm pretty sure you'd be the first person in line to raise holy hell if developers ignored their player bases.
I know you're going for the whole I hate everything schtick, and that's fine, but takign a shot at developers for looking for fan input is just silly.
I'm not going for any 'schtick' at all. I praise what is good, and condemn what is bad. It is revealing about the industry that so much fits into the latter category.
Objectivity pleases very few people. They prefer their religion uncluttered with dissenting views.
Fake musicians make music through "market research" which is a fancy way of saying "copy someone else to sell 1,000,000 records!".....And that's been happening with MMO's lately, which is making them suck.
Market research is a surefire way of giving players a predictable, lukewarm experience. Innovation comes from vision and risk-taking. If the developer is actually also a player, then they won't have to test the market to the same extent - they can base their design on their own experience, and that of playing with others. Many of the greatest filmmakers and artists have been writing or performing for themselves first, and their audience second. The really good ones know how to pull this off without being self-indulgent.
Rockstars are out amongst their fans constantly. Their audience can become divided the more the songs pander to expectations., because truly, no-one knows exactly what that new thing they want is until they are experiencing it.
All i can really say is this article did read EXACTLY how i was expecting it to. "designers all want to make the best game, producers want to make the best game. Publishers want to publish the best game." That's the biggest bunch of crock i've ever seen. You say in your article yourself the publishers want a "AAA mmo... and we got a wowkiller" That alone says they're doing it for the money. Most of these games are made for the money and that's it. I mean look at wow, the way it's made is so that they hold that carrot out on a stick infront of you the entire time. The game's not completely great but they do have a great way of getting people addicted which is their goal.
Almost no devloper is truly trying to make a great game, they're trying to make a game that's goign tomake them rich. Look at and name one game publisher who isn't worried about their bottom line? Yeah sure Activision's the worst company out there for it but they're all concerned about it. A person doesn't go and get a job in the game company because they simply love games oh no, they do it because they want to do something that they like doing and get paid for it. After they work on it for awhile, they know that they'll lose interest in the type of games they make. If all you do is program ai all day long, you'll grow bored of playing single player games and will most likely never do them again because you can predict what they're going to do.
Bottom line is... when you said "AAA mmo with y million dollars" the publishers are thinking "they're going to make us a game that's going to be a wow killer" no publisher thinks otherwise. They want to make that game. They want to make the wow killer if it's a sub based game. If it's a cash shop game, they want to know they can make as much as they can possible from the cash shop.
This entire article is biased out of the ass. MMO developers unless they're indy doing their own indy thing are doing it for the money. Well maybe not "all" for the money but a great deal of it. As there's also fame, if you make the wow killer or a game that's got x million players you can know that you can basically pump out the same old shit for years and you'll get paid for it.
So the point was that we should give dev's a permenant break on the forums because their sucky games might not be anyone's fault? Come on. I think mmorpg would go away if it there wasn't a way to vent on the forums. I found this site because I got tired of an mmo. There were things I didn't like and I wanted to talk about it. Most mmo's suck. This site is all about mmo's. You do the math. Might want to rethink this strategy. Poor, poor, poor developers...
My opinion still remains, based on the past few failures:
1. Gross waste of development resources to minimal value-added features- example: CO and its ridiculous focus on costumes which have no effect on gameplay whatsoever...
and...
2. Lack of interesting non-combat, downtime activities. AoC, CO, WAR, absolute, all around failures on this point. So I guess my opinion doesn't sway much, or any, from the column.
There's a reason that management is defined as "overseeing a project", and that when someone screws up, it's referred to as an "oversight".
All of those points are indicative of poor management. The same people that run these games into the ground would end up running any business into the ground - be it a Quicky Mart or a McDonald's franchise.
By and large (from my personal experience) MMO game developers have just enough "artist" in them to hand-wave away a very large part of the realities of designing and running a business - because they are visionaries, misunderstood in their own time and so forth.
It's kind of understandable in a way. A game dev gets promoted up the ladder from QA or CS based on their ideas and capabilities. The erstwhile bug-hunter shows that he's got a fantastic way of putting together game systems to make a really fun and successful game - thus he's make lead producer, head developer and whatever.
But then the studio wants a new game, or that eager beaver wants to strike out on his own and make the game he always dreamed of, and all of a sudden he's not a designer or developer anymore - he's a manager. And large-scale management / leadership is a skill-set he simply doesn't have. Going down in flames would be the expected result here - especially if it's on a high-profile game with a lot of pressure to perform.
Add to that the creeping notion that publishers aren't looking for the "best" game, they're looking for the game that might pull in numbers like WoW (which wasn't the best game either at launch - but simply captured lightning in a bottle and ran with it) and it's not tough to see why most MMOs suck.
Huge wrap-around, seamless world. Extensive character customization. The ability for players to have an affect on said world, such as the ability to terraform like in Wurm. Politics, laws, whatever, crafting and gathering for things like building a place to live, decorate and store things...some mundane everyday life things to take care of, foraging, hunting, gardening whatever is necessary for the type of world...having to eat, drink...but a more real life model that doesn't have you dying if you don't eat/drink every 20 minutes...to make it seem like a real world...a person can go a long time without eating. A real time clock not a scaled down version of time (a night and day cycle). An endurance system that regulates a players ability to achieve certain tasks. Heavy consequences for unprovoked PKing (again...laws). Beautiful graphics and animations to further submerse and draw me into the world. These are things I'd like to see.
Now I myself not being a developer do not really know anything about what goes on in the creation of these games; so far be it from me to criticize the people that try and do bring us these amazing places to play in. In my opinion, I believe that the community is pretty much the blame for how a world plays out and please if you have any bad comments or think I'm an asshole for my opinions, likes/wants, thoughts, please, keep them to yourself...we all know what is said about assholes...oh wait...that's opinions and I'm entitled to my own.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
My definition of "suck" would be that the developers are trying, as the OP stated, to create "wow-killers". To say that and then try to espouse the differences between "Design" and "Vision" is laughable at best. According to your previous statement we know the design and Vision: WoW. Sure, you can't copy it completely, though Alganon is certainly pushing that envelope, but overall that's what is happening.
There seems to be this belief that there is this pool of gamers out there who are not playing WoW but want a WoW-like game. Um, no.
There also seems to be a belief that if you make a game very similar to WoW but different in a few ways you'll syphon off players from WoW. Um, no. Why would they leave something where they are established to start from scratch in virtually the same thing? News flash, they won't.
I'm not knocking WoW for those of you too short-sighted to see my point. The problem is all these developers and investors who can't wake up from the WoW wet-dreams. The problem is that these folks in influential positions have no creativity when it comes to making a game world, inventing new systems and ideas and putting them together to bring the world alive. Just like old school Dungeon Masters/Game Masters on the table-top.
Triple-A developers have locked themselves, with extreme pressure from investors and CEOs no doubt, into a culture of un-originality. We've seen one or two flashes, like PQs in WAR (speaking on that specific system only) and possibly the combat system in AoC (again, speaking only on that specific system). Outside of that, it's the same level based, class based, 2 to 3 "talent" lists for variety, combat heavy, crafting-social systems weak, get-to-the-endgame games.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Companies are too interested in the almighty quick buck, many that are producing these inferior mmopg's have lost sight in what it is to make a sucsessful mmo and that is to design a mmo that gamers actually want to stay, play, and compete in so we do not feel the need to look elsewhere for our mmo home.
You maybe producing these mmo's to make a profit sure what company would'nt, but stop and ask yourselve's at what point should we ask our customers what THEY WANT A MMO TO BE!
So... A game comes out that is shit... And we should blame the buyers for buying it ?
No its the job of the DEVS to put it together. Its part of developers job to MANAGE diffrent elements of the game so they fit together in the final porduct. It doesn't matter if there are billion first time ever seen features...
You can put 1000 geniouses together to make a game. They would do absolutly nothing without some managment. But hey... Developing a a top MMO game is 90% about MANAGMENT.
Thats where games like AOC and WAR failed. Those games cut BILLIONS of corners to get a game out for the PUBLISHER - the other half of the release duo.
If a developer that screws up 90% of the managment of their game ends up standing infront of the puplisher for the 4th time asking for more time (like Funcom) ..... then whos fault is it ?
Excuses, excuses, excuses.... Its easy to make them... but it doesn't make them any more valid.
There are a ton of posters on here that are complaining that companies design something that will make money and how wrong that is.
Talk about completely missing the point, if a game makes money then it was designed correctly becaues enough people found it fun for it to be profitable. It's that simple.
These forums represent the vocal minority of gamers and not where the market is. For example look how many people on here say WoW is terrible and killed MMOs. Well when a game has 11 million subscribers it isn't terrible, it is exactly what the majority of gamers want. It is that simple.
So no there aren't very many devs designing for the posters on these boards because there's not enough of them buying and playing games for it to be worth it.
Comments
No one said anything about recognizing the quality of a game. The topic was how games can end up at crap quality.
You're clearly unsatisfied with the MMO genre. So instead of complaining on forums, waiting for someone else to "fix" things, I invite you to raise a budget, assemble a team, set up a studio, create a design, schedule out the tasks resulting from that design, and implement on time and on budget.
What, that sounds like a lot of work? And you're not qualified to undertake something like that? Then what makes you an authority on how people carry out any of those jobs?
An opinion is one thing, but when you so effortlessly lay accusations and blame in situations (the development of MMO games) that you clearly have no actual first-hand knowledge of, you're just being a jackass.
Walk through that tunnel, come out the other side, and then tell me you have the answers.
Of course people want those returns and the reason for those posts isn't because people don't understand that companies want those kinds of returns, it's that they understand that they aren't going to get those returns. But, what game in the industry actually can get those returns besides Blizzard?
Using your bank scenario, what if the bank told you that you only have a 0.25% chance of getting that 7.5% return but you have a 90% chance of getting the 0.25% return and possibly much much more, are you still going to take the 7.5% or are you going to take the 0.25%?
I really wonder who the hell does this market research honestly. WoW has alot of accounts, yeah great we all know that. But, who else does? From what I can tell, the biggest player in the pay to play genre who isn't WoW is EVE Online. A fully sandbox, open world PVP game. It's an indy game that beats the hell out of all the triple A competitors. The game has been around forever, sure. But, being a forum troll and an MMO junkie for years, I have probably seen thousands of people say that the only reason they don't play EVE Online, is because they have no avatar and can't form a connection to their character. Oh, but the game is still number 2? What happened to the market research there?
So, I'm sorry if I didn't take anything from what you wrote. If you're what you say you are, I respect that and I would love to be you. Perhaps, if I was I would be saying the same thing. But the only thing I took from all that you wrote, was the you hire guys who claim to do "Market Research" who probably don't know a damn thing about games or what players want. No matter how much developers want it to be, this genre is not the single player market. It's a completely different being from any other market in gaming.
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I would not generalize that 'all' MMO players are dev-haters or trolling witch-hunters trying to bash the dev team any chance they get.
I certainly don't think I 'know it all' or could do it better.. but as an active player who does spend a fair amount of time researching issues and playing the system, I do try to contribute a players perpective on certain 'sucky' issues.
From my observations, you simply cannot expect to get it perfect right out of the gate... as no product is ever truely 'perfect'.. no amount of money or time is going to replace kind of feedback that thousands upon thousands of hours of overall player time can do in a few short months.
I don't think reasonable players have a hard time grasping the concept of why things get cut back or delayed or pushed out a earlier than intended and don't work perfectly. Most players just care if the game is fun and if the bugs don't create unsurmountable issues or cheat them out of game content.
Forums are way to confrontational.. its unfortunate but its simply the nature of the beast. Still.. if your able to sift through the mud.. you find gem players who enjoy the 'hobby' of learning the dev-created game mechanics and get to a player-based level of understanding that can provide substantial feedback on how to correct or at least identify a /sucky element.
MMO's are big, complicated code beasts with potentially thousands of individual players and expectations all seeking their own game adventure. A lot of players DO get that.. wheras Forum trolls don't really care.. its just about hitting 'reply' to argue something anyway.
Articles like this are good reminders as to why something might fall short of our personal expectations. I can live with that.. or try another product... in the end I don't invest anywhere near the time and money the publisher does.. so I can afford to walk away from any MMO at any time I feel like it.
Players are renters after all.. character investment is a falicy.. you don't own anything.. your just renting the opportunity to use the system to interact with other players.
You'd better enjoy the interaction or put your money somewhere else right?
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
I think the article and almost everyone else is eluding that MMOs are games which keep development over time even after release. Sure, an MMO sucks now, but will it keep sucking? The common gamer mentality is to think 'yes' because most games are static. But MMOs are not, and everything might change within a year of release or so. It could also be the other way around (at least for many); look at Star Wars Galaxies. That certain MMOs suck isn't set in stone, not in the very least, and witch-hunting and its implied pressure has the positive aspect of making the companies try harder, because if they victimize themselves, if they say 'no one is at fault' so we gamers keep silent and disengage from those games we love, then no one wins - the MMO keeps sucking, and we do nothing about it.
The thing is, devs take these things too personally. They have to realize these games are reaching possibly hundreds of thousands of people, or at least tens of thousands. It's your work, and it will be criticized and destroyed as well as praised; this is no high-school project for your friends and family, and you should face that fact with responsibility, because sure, even if things get out of your direct hands, it's still something YOU are developing. NO ONE ELSE can make it right. Blame the publishers and the money-grabbers all you want, but if you let the criticism personally affect you, then you shouldn't be working in such a public medium. Stop trying to evade these things; buckle up and face your audience with dignity.
I don't have to be an authority, nor even make unsubstantiated claims of being one.
I make my posts and give my opinions. You are free to argue with them. Claiming some moral superiority through some unproven claim of expertise is irrelevant and merely an attempt to stifle debate.
Resorting to childish name-calling isn't making your posts any more convincing.
I can smell well enough to tell when something is crap, and I know that game companies have profit as #1 concern - not quality games. The latter is just one way of achieving the former.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think this is a good article - informative and a good read.
Generating sparks of brilliance between the design and talent folks is pretty easy, but once you add the guy with the purse strings it almost always changes into something a lot less fun and sparky. Suddenly there are rules and contracts to sign, promises to keep (or lies to tell) and you can't wait until that guy goes off into his corner somewhere.
Down the road, he becomes relevant again and at some point he never goes away. He is a huge part of the audience you're selling to, and you need to keep him happy. In the fine balancing act of bringing ideas to market, the guy with the money is a deal maker or breaker. Until you can satisfy him it's a scramble. But if you can make him happy as well as your target audience, you have achieved WIN.
Honestly If I had the opportunity to make others happy because of my actions I would make them happy because then I can go to bed happy and proud knowing that I didn't choose money over people and I made a difference. So by what you have said most game developers don't care about what the players what they care about where the money is at. There are a few developers who don't follow the money and make games how they want it and to please their players not their wallets. Take Bioware for example when EA bought them they essentially told them you will not touch our games we make them the way we want them and how players expect them and we don't want you ruining that. That's not exactly what they said but its essentially what they said.
So how come game developers such as the ones who made EVE or even Darkfall decide to do something different, knowing it may fail, they do it for the players they see forums such as these, see what the players are crying for and attempt to make something they may enjoy even if its only a few players.
I think the world as a whole needs to stop worrying about making more money and start worrying about making people happy.
Now I'm not trying to say its the devs fault because its probably not, I just don't think Devs truly care about the players, no offense to you. That's my 2 cents.
Interesting article.
Some blame the devs, and some of that can be true, but who I like to blame is those who give the dev's their marching orders. Orders come down from the top and the devs have to do what they are told, unless in some cases they think they are god. I can use a few examples SWG - Helious, LOTRO - Orion. When you have devs like those with the atitude of what I am doing is the way it needs to be despite what the comunity thinks that is when things get sucky.
Oh and then lets do talk balance. When you program something and you not its way over power, leave it that way for 2 years, then go omg its game breaking then fix it, yes players get way upset. DOn't code stuff that makes things way over power, like for instance RK's in lotro everybody knew they were op and that was a fact, now after a year they hend out nerfs. When you program something so far out of balance and then fix it thats when things suck.
Players hate nerf's of any kind so you need to think about what your doing in the first place so as not to nerf the player down later.
Players like a chalange, but they dont want it to be insane on the hard side either. Take for instance Dark Delvings in lotro, that thing was imposible to beat in normal mode so folks went and they exploited it there were 5 distink exploits.. Then 6 months after the fact the beefed up the instance took out 4/6 exploits and made it impossible to beat again. Guess what players figured out the hole and exploited it every night until SOM arived. Now they all just run the one easy instance GS over and over and over.
So players dont want stuff to easy, and they dont want it to hard, but when you make it insane they will expliot it.
So I blame both devs and management for making a sucky game. And even the company sometimes. Just look at NCSOFT or Cryptic you mention those names and its a huge turn off for folks, due to how they run things.
I have played and still do play several games online. .. I think it really boils down to what YOU want in a game. if you want tradeskilling and houses to fill with furniture. . . play the games that allow youto do that. If you want flying mounts. . . well go play that game. If you like to stand around dance and do PVP. . . there are several to choose from and at that point it comes down to the fashion if you happen to be of the female persuasion.
I like the houses and the tradeskilling and the dancing. I could care less for grinding levels, PVP and flying mounts.
There was one game I tried though and I thought it truely did suck. It had notheing to do withmy playing ability. . .. it had everyhting to do withthe type of person it was aimed at. The game is LINEAGE II . . .as far as I am conerned it is the worst game in the world. Maybe not the worst game the world. It is a heavy grind for Adena and level. . . . I mean when a fluff hat with a feather in it costs 140,000,000 Adena. . . . ummmm. . . .. I can play better games than that and choose to go to the "marketplace" and pay $10.00 real money for a better hat. . . . .
Thank you very much. . .but some games do truely suck.
Just my opinion.
Debates are based on facts. So far all you've said is "I don't believe it.". Which I believe is a fact. But that's all you got. I've stated a number of factors that I am aware of through direct experience and contribute to the situation which should be considered in an analysis. I don't know it all, nor do I expect I ever will. But I know some.
So, in the spirit of free exchange, what's your opinion on:
* a MMO investor's right to have influence over the development of the product?
* a development house's right to pursue the means with which to pay their employees despite that it might not satisfy YOUR aesthetic tastes?
* the right of a share in a free market to hold a comparable level of influence on said market (most popular movement calls the first shot, followed by second most popular, etc, all the way down to tiny niche)
Great, you can smell a turd. You are a singularly blessed individual. Back to my previous question. Are you just going to keep complaining that someone hasn't come along and wiped your backside or are you going to learn how it's done and change your pants yourself?
Also, this isn't completely directed at you, but a company isn't a single entity. When you say "companies have profit as their #1 concern" you are right, if you mean some individuals in a company. And the rest of us care too, just to a lesser extent, because in order to do what we love for a living, we need to make a living. I'm sure there are people who would love to work on whatever your dream game may be, but not if it means they have to sacrifice their lives and families for it, especially when another game allows them to do it all. Most people involved in making games are amenable to creating all sorts of games, not locked on one dream-like ideal of a specific game.
To Hatter:
Your point is taken on the bank analogy. I think your example is closer to the truth, although the actual numbers probably make it seem like less of a slam dunk in either direction. Higher return is obviously going to be greater risk, but guys who have the means to risk a million plus aren't likely interested in a 2% return. So to get the money, a developer has to explore options that can be both artistically satisfying and also convince someone that the risk is worth it, usually by making SOME game choices that sweeten the projected return for an investor. And to that end, people who actually work on the game are rarely the ones courting investors, so sometimes you get told you have a chance to work on an idea that is only 75% of the game you'd like to make in a perfect world. Most of us can roll with that.
Also, someone else said something to the effect of "grow a thicker skin". You are so right. There is a reason i didn't have an account until today. And that was to keep me from giving in to temptation and getting involved in endless internet arguments. Truth is people will believe what they want to believe and anything I have to offer is only an opinion. Can't fix a forum squall.
Of course people want those returns and the reason for those posts isn't because people don't understand that companies want those kinds of returns, it's that they understand that they aren't going to get those returns. But, what game in the industry actually can get those returns besides Blizzard?
Using your bank scenario, what if the bank told you that you only have a 0.25% chance of getting that 7.5% return but you have a 90% chance of getting the 0.25% return and possibly much much more, are you still going to take the 7.5% or are you going to take the 0.25%?
I really wonder who the hell does this market research honestly. WoW has alot of accounts, yeah great we all know that. But, who else does? From what I can tell, the biggest player in the pay to play genre who isn't WoW is EVE Online. A fully sandbox, open world PVP game. It's an indy game that beats the hell out of all the triple A competitors. The game has been around forever, sure. But, being a forum troll and an MMO junkie for years, I have probably seen thousands of people say that the only reason they don't play EVE Online, is because they have no avatar and can't form a connection to their character. Oh, but the game is still number 2? What happened to the market research there?
So, I'm sorry if I didn't take anything from what you wrote. If you're what you say you are, I respect that and I would love to be you. Perhaps, if I was I would be saying the same thing. But the only thing I took from all that you wrote, was the you hire guys who claim to do "Market Research" who probably don't know a damn thing about games or what players want. No matter how much developers want it to be, this genre is not the single player market. It's a completely different being from any other market in gaming.
My thoughts exactly.
It would be interesting to see a list of MMOs that he considers bad.
--
Michael
Oh I like this guy!
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No one, especially in business wants to do a bad crap piece of work. It doesn't look good on the resume (for one reason) and the only reason one would want to do garbage work is so that one can claim all the expenses for the failure at the end of the tax year. But this doesn't take away the anger and resentment of the employees at the managers who let this happen. Both in terms of pride of work and loss of employment. And profitable meaning successful is a means to an end to make money by having a successful game. There are easier ways to lose money in this world than making MMO's.
Does this mean the consumer is the reason? Yes and no. The failure of MMO designers to make games that the consumers want can be based on bad intel gathered on the consumers or an unrealistic assumption on the part of consumers as to what they want the MMO to be. You can't please all the people out in the hinterlands who want A,B, and C for their MMO and make sure it works with current technology and for a low price per month! The most you can do is fight for your market share and try to keep costs down so you'll have money to make improvments for your upcoming builds in the coming months/years.
I'm sure, looking at the posts so far, that all the...consumers will want to blame the developers for all the MMO's that suck. But each one dying out there is taking someone's dreams with it. So before sticking out a finger and saying "J'accuse!" at all the MMO creators out there. Try seeing it from their point of view first, will ya?
"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." Neitzsche
a) yes they do, they just don't do it as overtly. it's done though market research.
b) I'm pretty sure you'd be the first person in line to raise holy hell if developers ignored their player bases.
I know you're going for the whole I hate everything schtick, and that's fine, but takign a shot at developers for looking for fan input is just silly.
I'm not going for any 'schtick' at all. I praise what is good, and condemn what is bad. It is revealing about the industry that so much fits into the latter category.
Objectivity pleases very few people. They prefer their religion uncluttered with dissenting views.
Fake musicians make music through "market research" which is a fancy way of saying "copy someone else to sell 1,000,000 records!".....And that's been happening with MMO's lately, which is making them suck.
Market research is a surefire way of giving players a predictable, lukewarm experience. Innovation comes from vision and risk-taking. If the developer is actually also a player, then they won't have to test the market to the same extent - they can base their design on their own experience, and that of playing with others. Many of the greatest filmmakers and artists have been writing or performing for themselves first, and their audience second. The really good ones know how to pull this off without being self-indulgent.
Rockstars are out amongst their fans constantly. Their audience can become divided the more the songs pander to expectations., because truly, no-one knows exactly what that new thing they want is until they are experiencing it.
All i can really say is this article did read EXACTLY how i was expecting it to. "designers all want to make the best game, producers want to make the best game. Publishers want to publish the best game." That's the biggest bunch of crock i've ever seen. You say in your article yourself the publishers want a "AAA mmo... and we got a wowkiller" That alone says they're doing it for the money. Most of these games are made for the money and that's it. I mean look at wow, the way it's made is so that they hold that carrot out on a stick infront of you the entire time. The game's not completely great but they do have a great way of getting people addicted which is their goal.
Almost no devloper is truly trying to make a great game, they're trying to make a game that's goign tomake them rich. Look at and name one game publisher who isn't worried about their bottom line? Yeah sure Activision's the worst company out there for it but they're all concerned about it. A person doesn't go and get a job in the game company because they simply love games oh no, they do it because they want to do something that they like doing and get paid for it. After they work on it for awhile, they know that they'll lose interest in the type of games they make. If all you do is program ai all day long, you'll grow bored of playing single player games and will most likely never do them again because you can predict what they're going to do.
Bottom line is... when you said "AAA mmo with y million dollars" the publishers are thinking "they're going to make us a game that's going to be a wow killer" no publisher thinks otherwise. They want to make that game. They want to make the wow killer if it's a sub based game. If it's a cash shop game, they want to know they can make as much as they can possible from the cash shop.
This entire article is biased out of the ass. MMO developers unless they're indy doing their own indy thing are doing it for the money. Well maybe not "all" for the money but a great deal of it. As there's also fame, if you make the wow killer or a game that's got x million players you can know that you can basically pump out the same old shit for years and you'll get paid for it.
So the point was that we should give dev's a permenant break on the forums because their sucky games might not be anyone's fault? Come on. I think mmorpg would go away if it there wasn't a way to vent on the forums. I found this site because I got tired of an mmo. There were things I didn't like and I wanted to talk about it. Most mmo's suck. This site is all about mmo's. You do the math. Might want to rethink this strategy. Poor, poor, poor developers...
*** APPLAUSE ***
Impressive article, that I expected to strongly dislike based on the title (was expecting a trash editorial).
Looking forward to more!
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
My opinion still remains, based on the past few failures:
1. Gross waste of development resources to minimal value-added features- example: CO and its ridiculous focus on costumes which have no effect on gameplay whatsoever...
and...
2. Lack of interesting non-combat, downtime activities. AoC, CO, WAR, absolute, all around failures on this point. So I guess my opinion doesn't sway much, or any, from the column.
There's a reason that management is defined as "overseeing a project", and that when someone screws up, it's referred to as an "oversight".
*shrug*
All of those points are indicative of poor management. The same people that run these games into the ground would end up running any business into the ground - be it a Quicky Mart or a McDonald's franchise.
By and large (from my personal experience) MMO game developers have just enough "artist" in them to hand-wave away a very large part of the realities of designing and running a business - because they are visionaries, misunderstood in their own time and so forth.
It's kind of understandable in a way. A game dev gets promoted up the ladder from QA or CS based on their ideas and capabilities. The erstwhile bug-hunter shows that he's got a fantastic way of putting together game systems to make a really fun and successful game - thus he's make lead producer, head developer and whatever.
But then the studio wants a new game, or that eager beaver wants to strike out on his own and make the game he always dreamed of, and all of a sudden he's not a designer or developer anymore - he's a manager. And large-scale management / leadership is a skill-set he simply doesn't have. Going down in flames would be the expected result here - especially if it's on a high-profile game with a lot of pressure to perform.
Add to that the creeping notion that publishers aren't looking for the "best" game, they're looking for the game that might pull in numbers like WoW (which wasn't the best game either at launch - but simply captured lightning in a bottle and ran with it) and it's not tough to see why most MMOs suck.
Huge wrap-around, seamless world. Extensive character customization. The ability for players to have an affect on said world, such as the ability to terraform like in Wurm. Politics, laws, whatever, crafting and gathering for things like building a place to live, decorate and store things...some mundane everyday life things to take care of, foraging, hunting, gardening whatever is necessary for the type of world...having to eat, drink...but a more real life model that doesn't have you dying if you don't eat/drink every 20 minutes...to make it seem like a real world...a person can go a long time without eating. A real time clock not a scaled down version of time (a night and day cycle). An endurance system that regulates a players ability to achieve certain tasks. Heavy consequences for unprovoked PKing (again...laws). Beautiful graphics and animations to further submerse and draw me into the world. These are things I'd like to see.
Now I myself not being a developer do not really know anything about what goes on in the creation of these games; so far be it from me to criticize the people that try and do bring us these amazing places to play in. In my opinion, I believe that the community is pretty much the blame for how a world plays out and please if you have any bad comments or think I'm an asshole for my opinions, likes/wants, thoughts, please, keep them to yourself...we all know what is said about assholes...oh wait...that's opinions and I'm entitled to my own.
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
My definition of "suck" would be that the developers are trying, as the OP stated, to create "wow-killers". To say that and then try to espouse the differences between "Design" and "Vision" is laughable at best. According to your previous statement we know the design and Vision: WoW. Sure, you can't copy it completely, though Alganon is certainly pushing that envelope, but overall that's what is happening.
There seems to be this belief that there is this pool of gamers out there who are not playing WoW but want a WoW-like game. Um, no.
There also seems to be a belief that if you make a game very similar to WoW but different in a few ways you'll syphon off players from WoW. Um, no. Why would they leave something where they are established to start from scratch in virtually the same thing? News flash, they won't.
I'm not knocking WoW for those of you too short-sighted to see my point. The problem is all these developers and investors who can't wake up from the WoW wet-dreams. The problem is that these folks in influential positions have no creativity when it comes to making a game world, inventing new systems and ideas and putting them together to bring the world alive. Just like old school Dungeon Masters/Game Masters on the table-top.
Triple-A developers have locked themselves, with extreme pressure from investors and CEOs no doubt, into a culture of un-originality. We've seen one or two flashes, like PQs in WAR (speaking on that specific system only) and possibly the combat system in AoC (again, speaking only on that specific system). Outside of that, it's the same level based, class based, 2 to 3 "talent" lists for variety, combat heavy, crafting-social systems weak, get-to-the-endgame games.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Companies are too interested in the almighty quick buck, many that are producing these inferior mmopg's have lost sight in what it is to make a sucsessful mmo and that is to design a mmo that gamers actually want to stay, play, and compete in so we do not feel the need to look elsewhere for our mmo home.
You maybe producing these mmo's to make a profit sure what company would'nt, but stop and ask yourselve's at what point should we ask our customers what THEY WANT A MMO TO BE!
So... A game comes out that is shit... And we should blame the buyers for buying it ?
No its the job of the DEVS to put it together. Its part of developers job to MANAGE diffrent elements of the game so they fit together in the final porduct. It doesn't matter if there are billion first time ever seen features...
You can put 1000 geniouses together to make a game. They would do absolutly nothing without some managment. But hey... Developing a a top MMO game is 90% about MANAGMENT.
Thats where games like AOC and WAR failed. Those games cut BILLIONS of corners to get a game out for the PUBLISHER - the other half of the release duo.
If a developer that screws up 90% of the managment of their game ends up standing infront of the puplisher for the 4th time asking for more time (like Funcom) ..... then whos fault is it ?
Excuses, excuses, excuses.... Its easy to make them... but it doesn't make them any more valid.
There are a ton of posters on here that are complaining that companies design something that will make money and how wrong that is.
Talk about completely missing the point, if a game makes money then it was designed correctly becaues enough people found it fun for it to be profitable. It's that simple.
These forums represent the vocal minority of gamers and not where the market is. For example look how many people on here say WoW is terrible and killed MMOs. Well when a game has 11 million subscribers it isn't terrible, it is exactly what the majority of gamers want. It is that simple.
So no there aren't very many devs designing for the posters on these boards because there's not enough of them buying and playing games for it to be worth it.