<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Tabash</i> <br /> <b> <p>Rule #1 of business : The customer is always right.</p> </b></blockquote> <p>That statement is flat wrong. Sure it holds water if you have ONE customer. What happens when you have more than one and they all disagree? They can't all be right... and you can't possibly remain profitable as a business if you try to make your product suit everyone of them.</p> <p>Whoever coined that phrase was only dealing with one person at a time and was probably selling umbrella cans door to door.</p> <p> </p> <p> </p>
heres how i would invision my MMO (factor in im not a dev and this id just off the cuff, so i not working out the detales here)
And this is the problem - most customers have a long wishlist of what they want in a product without considering the work that is involved or whether or not other people will like it as well.
This reminds me an early episode of The Simpsons. Homer was given the chance to make the car of his dreams at his Brother's car plant.
The logic thinking was since Homer was the "average American" his car design should appeal to the average customer - hence be successful.
As it turned out what Homer wanted in a car was totally different what other customers wanted.
A bad MMO is in the eyes of a beholder - one person may think it's worst game in the world while other person may think it's gold.
Most of the mmo company who started poor like EVE or niche one that we got today like darkfall and mortal online make sandbox mmorpg's with full loot, open world pvp.
They seem to not need too much money or devs(They got around 10 - 30 devs) to make their game because the players make their own content anyway in game. The devs dont need to spend time to hold each players hands in a park to guide them in the next quest, next location or tell them what to do next.
So if those rich company that are rich could make sandbox open world pvp with full loot instead of a theme park, i bet they would spend less time, less money and a small sub base as 30 000 only would be good enough to catch up on the amount of money they spended to make their game and if that game got time to upgrade over time like EVE did, it might end up hitting 300 000 subs one day.
So im just saying, rich company should stop making MMO's like wow. It cost too much and if it fail then its too much money waste. So they should make sandbox instead from now and see how it goes.
So after i readed the new journal, im still at it, Mainstram MMO's sux. Stop doing like wow do just to being at risk to waste money or to get money. stop doing competition with wow. Make an MO that cost less money like sandbox mmorpg's. Thats all im saying. Stop thinking that you will be succeful like wow. Because players will start your game and once theiy figure out its the same like their old game, they will go back there.
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Tabash</i> <br />
<b>
<p>Rule #1 of business : The customer is always right.</p>
</b></blockquote>
<p>That statement is flat wrong. Sure it holds water if you have ONE customer. What happens when you have more than one and they all disagree? They can't all be right... and you can't possibly remain profitable as a business if you try to make your product suit everyone of them.</p>
<p>Whoever coined that phrase was only dealing with one person at a time and was probably selling umbrella cans door to door.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
What color is the umbrella can? Does it have Darth Vader on it? What size is the can? Will this umbrella can work well at my door? Can others use my umbrella can for thier umbrellas? Is this umbrella can better than my neighbor's umbrella can? Can I keep a rifle in the umbrella can? If this umbrella can is made from an Elephant's Foot is it illegal? So how many customers are buying this umbrella can?
Its true that this statement has more "water" with say selling jewlery but where it applies in a mass market is just as valid. Marketing Research is done to find group trends. Group Trends translate into targetable customer desires. When the larger group all agree on a given feature as a whole..."the customer is always right" is the guide to development. What most on forums like this don't understand is those large groups of customers never make vocal thier desires here. They just quietly quit games and move on to thier next entertainment. They will not engage you in debate as they don't care that much.
What most on forums like this don't understand is those large groups of customers never make vocal thier desires here. They just quietly quit games and move on to thier next entertainment. They will not engage you in debate as they don't care that much.
+ 1 10x
no one listens to feedback anyway. seems the thing to do when a game realizes it sucks [which is waaaay after the gamers decided the same] is now to switch to f2p model with micro suck transactions, fire everyone except the guy with the paypal passwords, and make a new game with the same suck, different textures.
"Believe me, every developer on an MMO is trying to make the best MMO ever."
I don't believe you - unless "best" means "most profitable". Devs don't put in things like cash shops, grinds, and dungeon lockout timers to make their games better for the players. Apologia from an industry insider. No surprise it's a puff piece.
"Most profitable" means, lots of people playing it, which requires! You guessed it!!! Wait, maybe not, actually I think you missed the puncline entirely. Quality polished , fun game for the masses. The game you probably hate the most, WoW. Isn't it in their f*king interest to make the best MMO ever?! It's like any other business. You don't even half to be in the industry to understand this. You just half to drop the fact that you are a snobbeling geek and use some common sense. Wait, that's rare too huh...
MMO's are made as well as "Possible", AKA, they will get put on the backburner for the??? Yes, thats right, the reasons stated in the article that you maybe forgot to read...
They have the same business regards as most quality "Customer service stores will". "The customer is always right, even if he's a complete tool". The last part is a inside joke for anybody on the planet who has held a job dealing with people. Actually... My 5 yearold sister understands this as well.
#1 frustration in the MMORPG genre and the biggest reason so many suck? Failure to award additional time and money needed to release a game that is truly ready for launch!
When you've already invested close to $100 million and four years of development time in a title, why do so many publishers fail to see that granting an additional $20 million and another year to development, in exchange for doubling or tripling your chances of having a blockbuster title, is superior to cutting production and releasing a game almost guaranteed to fail?
* Sure, it would be nice if someone would build a game just for you, but it's never going to happen. And it's not entirely about greed. If you're creating something, you want people to enjoy the result of your work. If a large portion of the people out there like something, then you're likely to develop toward that end. Oh, and looking around your favorite forum and citing "A skill-based, open world FFA full-loot PvP sandbox would clean up!" doesn't exactly measure up against the research and business experience these aforementioned financial people bring to the table. They know where the money is. We all do. Some might say "Why do they all want WoW-level returns?" If you went to the bank and they offered you two different types of accounts, "This one pays out 0.25% interest, but it makes a specific group of people around here happy. This other one returns 7.5%, but the thing is, those people don't really enjoy hearing about those accounts." Seriously, where is your money going?
Okay, I've already gone too far with this. First Dev rule is "Don't feed the Trolls." which is not specific to trolls. It just means don't stir the water any more than it already is, because nothing you say will satisfy everyone. You simply can't remedy a forum squall. But I guess if at least one person gets some perspective from this, it's worth the time it took me to create an account and type out my thoughts.
I think that's all the author was probably aiming for, too.
I work in Tech too....not the entertainment vertical ....but SaS ....so alot of similarties to MMO's who also work off the subscription based models. Both you and the author of the article made some good points. However some counters...
1) To the point you made about the WOW model.... I have a 2 word response.... Market Saturation.
You don't get to be successfull by opening the 412th burger joint on a street that has 411 other burger joints on it already. There is a reason why most MMO's never approach WOW level returns. You can't just follow a formula...even if you follow it to a T and expect huge returns.
The companies who really hit the monster successes tend to be the ones that find a product that NO ONE knows they want yet.... hence no one else has built/offered ..... but which a whole lot of people WOULD enjoy if was availble. That's alot riskier and more difficult to do.... and there is a very good chance of bombing. However, when a company does hit something like that right... THAT's the product that will make huge returns..... not WOW clone #347.
2) Let's be honest.....whether the financial people have any degree of competence whatsoever is an utter crapshoot. I don't know if that's true in your industry, but it's certainly true in mine. Sometimes the investors know what thier doing....other times the have absolutely no clue about the vertical they are investing in...... they just heard/read somewhere that the vertical was "hot" and want to be in it... they throw thier money at the guy who gives the best presentation, uses the right buzz-words and has a really good golf handicapp..... whether the project makes a lick of sense to anyone who really understands the vertical or not.
3) Again....not sure about your experiences but from mine..... I can say honestly that it's not that uncommon for huge decisions to be based on absolutely ZERO market research. I've also seen plenty of examples of market research being done and then blatantly ignored when it didn't fit with the results that the executive who ordered it WANTED to see. That's not even considering the quality of the research done....nor the fact that many times the researchers will cook the data because they know the customer who paid them to do it WANT's a particular outcome so that they can turn around and justify the decision....rather then the unvarnished truth.
Sometime major decisions are based upon nothing more then a magizine article that the CEO read.....that has absolutely nothing to do with the particular situation your project is in.....and doesn't translate at all.
I won't speak for you..... but what I've seen with my own eyes in the many years of my own work experience in Tech companies.....more then half the time resembles an episode of the Office....rather then NASA.
Paul Barnett said that World of Warcraft was The Beatles. He said that Warhammer Age of Reckoning was not trying to be The Beatles, they were going to be Led Zeppelin.
Of course, we all know now that they weren't Led Zeppelin. They were Spinal Tap.
The combination of vision, brains and brawn is a rare thing and the industry really doesn't churn out that many MMO's a year. How often do you see a really excellent movie?
The height of mediocrity is the challenge. It's practically a law of nature that most of these productions will be ruled by "nincompoops" on all levels. I like the Beatles just fine. I don't mind when they come on the radio, but I wouldn't buy one of their albums. It's just not my kind of band.
Alot of bands trying to be The Beatles lately. Me, I'm still waiting for Led Zeppelin. I know they'll come on stage one day, it's just a matter of time.
I think the problem is that the Vision is often just wrong. Look at a tight controlled game like Warhammer, Mark Jacobs had a vision, just the wrong one. The game should have been DAoC in the Warhammer world with a WoW interface and combat system. Instead it took too much elements from WoW, like battlegrounds.
They lost tons of players due to exhaustion on the battlegrounds aka scenario's, later on RvR was alot more fun, but the damage had been done. I still remember taking a 1 week break and when I got back it looked like half the server left, seriously. And that was in the second month after release I believe, so people liked the game at first, just as I did.
So after a while this vision was adjusted in a good direction, RvR was promoted and when I rejoined the game I had alot of fun in very active RvR. But now a new problem arises, everyone is doing RvR and no PVE, so PQ's were a ghost town ...
DAoC had PvE and RvR nicely balanced pre-ToA-NF, most DAoC vets will agree with me, I don't understand why Mythic did not try to work on their strong points instead of trying to compete with WoW.
WAR did bring a couple of nice things into the genre, like PQ's and the ToK, but that was not enough.
I really think producer(s) messed up the game with a wrong vision and not learning from the mistakes in the past.
I can give more examples of just plain bad vision, but I'll leave it at this for now.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
To add to this, the only visionaries that have not failed me yet are CCP, I am sure there are others, but I talk about personal experience.
Mythic ( with DAoC and WAR ), SOE ( with SWG ), EA ( with UO ), ... All have failed miserably in long term vision, imho.
Even WoW is not doing so great I think, however their next expansion is more horizontal in nature, so I applaud that, and perhaps are the changes in latest patch not so detrimental after all, and probably even in line with what most people want from Blizzard, on the other hand, everyone familiar with the mmo scene knows you should not always give what people ask, because they don't always know what they actually want
Anyway, just wanted add that.
p.s. Yes Dust514 scared me, and I still think it is a wrong turn, but I hope the damage won't be too big and a PC version will be released soon enough.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Another question I had after thinking about the artice:
If the "real" start of the death spiral for mmo's is its problems with "scope"(release date, financing, feature cuts, etc), then where does the overabundance/overuse of the "fantasy" genre come in to play?
After all...the first complaint I hear all the time from the mmo community is that they are tired of games featuring orcs/goblins/elves/swords/sorcery. And, since choosing the genre is pretty much a designer controlled decision...one that comes BEFORE any money is requested or a date is set, wouldn't that suggest that there are problems in the "vision" of many games BEFORE the "scope" is effected.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, while yes, money and time can make a game "suck"...isn't it possible that some (most?) developers just aren't that creative or imaginative in their ideas in the first place? (as evidenced by the lack of diversity in mmo genres)
First off, when someone here says "its the developers fault", usually he/she does not mean developers in the same sense as a game company. For a game company a dev is some specific job. For us as gamers developers are everyone who do a part in developing the game. So everyone, essentially. And how then can you NOT say its the developers fault? Now yes, before you bog me down with precision of speech, sure I can say "its everyone in charge's fault" but that does sound complicated, so I say "all those who develop the game and have a say in the game" or in short: THE DEVS.
That much been said, one of the basic reasons MMOs fail IMVPO is, outside of these technical reasons, rooted in two failures:
(A) The failure to see through a gamer's eye.
Sorry to say, but I have this fundamental feeling most people involved in development decisions don't have the view of the average player. Everyone in the development team fall in love with some particular part. Its quite simple to proof. I have been in many closed betas in early stages, and there always are many testers who point at all the cruicial issues quite early. But the "devs" (definition see above) simply don't listen. The truth is OUT THERE, it is SAID, but to no avail. They listen to fanbois because thats more comfortable. They delude themselves "it will magically work out". Sorry, I have seen enough intelligent people testing and KNOWING what would be a big issue, and they simply dont listen because many devs have no clue what really works.
(B) The failure to assume artistic power which they dont have
Art is something you need an artist for. A game is broken down in several parts who require a sense for art. You need tailors and amor designers for the gear, you need architects for the houses, you need people with a feeling for landscapes to design cool landscapes. And finally you need REAL AUTHORS to write good story via quests, dialogues and characterizations. A mere programmer won't do! A mere bean counter aka CEO won't do! NONE of these people is qualified in the arts. It is the hubris of programmers to thing, everyone who can hold a pencil can draw a cool clothing or armor design! It is hubris of pixel pushers to think, everyone who knows the alphabet can write good stories! Thats the whole issue! Most games are PLAGUED by the most forseeable stories, the most hollow and cliche quest stories, the most boring dialogues. Dammit, you dont think you are an author just because you can write! I mean, a game does not need a Pulitzer, but when I look at most games and esp. MMORPGs, I could cry tears for the hilariously bad level of writing most quests and stories have!
Those two issues are IMVPO the most grave reason for the many mediocre and sucktastic MMOs we have seen. Visual trash like Warhammer, story trash like post-Tortage AoC. Games which are not so much mired by the financial shortcomings mentioned in the article or the 99%, but by said two issues. At least thats my 2ct about it.
Solutuion:
LISTEN TO YOUR TESTERS!
HIRE SOME GODDAMN ARTISTS AND REAL WRITERS!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"Often these comments are laced with more expletives and leet speek than my example which is understandable since gamers are very passionate and loyal creatures typically complete and utter douchebags, as evidenced by the overwhelmingly douchebaggy responses to this article. Yes, douchebaggy."
I'm sorry, but this article was hilarious. Was I the only one who saw it that way? First, everyone is just entirely too uptight in responding to this thing. It seems like just a bunch of inside detail revealing that the majority of games are underfunded, doomed projects loaded with rampant scope creep and people who couldn't follow a budget if it came with a GPS. These types of things happen every day in corporate America, they just aren't as visible. People lose jobs, massive layoffs occur, and huge losses are incurred because some project manager decided the money set aside to pay for Artist #4 would instead be the public slush fund (read: beer and pizza money), as you can certainly get by with just the 3 artists, right? Ok, it's never that obviously stupid, but hopefully you get the point. This type of buffoonery isn't limited to games. But the article was hilarious, regardless. Well done!
Some devs are like mechanical robots. All brain and no common sense. They don't know what gamers like and sometimes I even wonder if they ever been around a player commnity before.
Have you ever called up a company’s customer service and complained about a product, but then they blamed the problem on some other department in that same company? Does that solve your problem? No. Do you still want satisfaction? Yes.
The problem I have with this article and with most of what “Dev4Aliving” has to say is this: So what now? I still don’t care. No really, I don’t care whose fault it was, or how much money some rich dude put into the project. I don’t care if it was a designer, producer, developer, key grip, or the water guy’s fault the game sucked. After reading this article, while I’m hitting my “cancel subscription” button in my account management screen, I’m not going to be saying to myself: “Well, sure the game was boring, half-done, and a clear copy of WoW. But at least I know it wasn’t Bob Johnson the developers fault!” No, that’s not going to make me feel better about the money I just wasted, and the money your company won’t be receiving. No amount of complaining and explaining to me why it wasn’t you or the dev’s fault isn’t going to change the fact that I’m still not paying for something that sucks. Making, funding, and developing is hard you say? Ok, but you still need to make something that is fun to play, no matter who dropped the ball - in order for me to pay you.
I feel that articles like these and responses from “devs” are just ways to make themselves feel better, and that’s fine, but I really don’t care. I’m sorry you don’t have employment with blizzard, and someone else keeps screwing up your projects, but in the end, it’s the millions of gamers that are paying for your salary, and if the project you’re apart of sucks, then you’re going to be labeled with it. If you don’t like that, then I would suggest another profession. It's pretty obvious now, some MMO companies and/or investors need to spend more time and money finding the source of failure and eliminate it, rather than spend millions of dollars trying to copy something that already has the market cornered.
Have you ever called up a company’s customer service and complained about a product, but then they blamed the problem on some other department in that same company? Does that solve your problem? No. Do you still want satisfaction? Yes. The problem I have with this article and with most of what “Dev4Aliving” has to say is this: So what now? I still don’t care. No really, I don’t care whose fault it was, or how much money some rich dude put into the project. I don’t care if it was a designer, producer, developer, key grip, or the water guy’s fault the game sucked. After reading this article, while I’m hitting my “cancel subscription” button in my account management screen, I’m not going to be saying to myself: “Well, sure the game was boring, half-done, and a clear copy of WoW. But at least I know it wasn’t Bob Johnson the developers fault!” No, that’s not going to make me feel better about the money I just wasted, and the money your company won’t be receiving. No amount of complaining and explaining to me why it wasn’t you or the dev’s fault isn’t going to change the fact that I’m still not paying for something that sucks. Making, funding, and developing is hard you say? Ok, but you still need to make something that is fun to play, no matter who dropped the ball - in order for me to pay you. I feel that articles like these and responses from “devs” are just ways to make themselves feel better, and that’s fine, but I really don’t care. I’m sorry you don’t have employment with blizzard, and someone else keeps screwing up your projects, but in the end, it’s the millions of gamers that are paying for your salary, and if the project you’re apart of sucks, then you’re going to be labeled with it. If you don’t like that, then I would suggest another profession. It's pretty obvious now, some MMO companies and/or investors need to spend more time and money finding the source of failure and eliminate it, rather than spend millions of dollars trying to copy something that already has the market cornered.
In the final result...this is all that will matter. Good post Xanthas.
Have you ever called up a company’s customer service and complained about a product, but then they blamed the problem on some other department in that same company? Does that solve your problem? No. Do you still want satisfaction? Yes. The problem I have with this article and with most of what “Dev4Aliving” has to say is this: So what now? I still don’t care. No really, I don’t care whose fault it was, or how much money some rich dude put into the project. I don’t care if it was a designer, producer, developer, key grip, or the water guy’s fault the game sucked. After reading this article, while I’m hitting my “cancel subscription” button in my account management screen, I’m not going to be saying to myself: “Well, sure the game was boring, half-done, and a clear copy of WoW. But at least I know it wasn’t Bob Johnson the developers fault!” No, that’s not going to make me feel better about the money I just wasted, and the money your company won’t be receiving. No amount of complaining and explaining to me why it wasn’t you or the dev’s fault isn’t going to change the fact that I’m still not paying for something that sucks. Making, funding, and developing is hard you say? Ok, but you still need to make something that is fun to play, no matter who dropped the ball - in order for me to pay you. I feel that articles like these and responses from “devs” are just ways to make themselves feel better, and that’s fine, but I really don’t care. I’m sorry you don’t have employment with blizzard, and someone else keeps screwing up your projects, but in the end, it’s the millions of gamers that are paying for your salary, and if the project you’re apart of sucks, then you’re going to be labeled with it. If you don’t like that, then I would suggest another profession. It's pretty obvious now, some MMO companies and/or investors need to spend more time and money finding the source of failure and eliminate it, rather than spend millions of dollars trying to copy something that already has the market cornered.
So, for everyone on here who is screaming Anti-dev rage. Ever build a game yourselves? Ever even attempt it? There seems to be this fairy-tale expectation of what the world of building games is like. The truth is, it's a lot like any other job, with all the same crap in a different pile.
I've said this before and I'll say this again: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A GAME DESIGNER OR A GAME DEVELOPER TO CRITICIZE A GAME.
Are all film critics film makers? Are all literary critics authors? Are all television critics television producers? In some cases yes they very much are, but in many cases (most cases) no, they are not.
Anyone with an opinion can criticize an MMO, you do not have to be an MMO developer to do so!
What you wrote is nothing more than a stupid fallacy that needs to be shot in the head before its stupidity infects anyone else.
What's really sad is that there is something lacking in a lot of MMORPGs that devs never seem to get, and that's the basic fundamental of "fun". Way too often a game is created that makes the game work, not fun, and then they get the impression that if they make the gamer work really hard for the results, then it will somehow translate to fun. Some games succeeded in that capacity but for different reasons. One was Everquest which required a lot of work to get results sometimes, but that game existed in a time when there wasn't a lot of competition around. It WAS the big boy on the block, so they could do that, and gamers went along with it.
Nowadays, most games are faced with the behemoth that is WoW, and they see it as some albatross that is to be beaten or copied, but what it is actually is a lot of fun. If you play WoW, you play a game that is designed around a lot of fun, and lots of hours of involvement that is nothing but fun. Sure, you might eventually get bored of it, but it's going to bring a lot of fun before that happens. I keep coming back to that game, mainly because it's fun.
I think devs really miss that a lot. Fun. Simple fun.
The point of half of the debates about MMOs stem from a very simple idea. Stop trying to be World of Warcraft and do something else. Yes, lots of people like WoW. Yes, it is making a killing. But just because Blizzard can do it doesn't mean you can!! WoW was a success because of the new things they did, and the new approaches they took to old ideas. It wasn't because they copied previous games. Yeah, being the next WoW would rock. But the next WoW won't be WoW. It'll be something else. Just like the next EQ was WoW, not EQ2.
Dear Devs, DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL. That is the only way you're going to succeed. And even worse, you probably won't succeed if you do something original. But if you don't, you certainly won't win.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Originally posted by Xanthas Have you ever called up a companys customer service and complained about a product, but then they blamed the problem on some other department in that same company? Does that solve your problem? No. Do you still want satisfaction? Yes. The problem I have with this article and with most of what Dev4Aliving has to say is this: So what now? I still dont care. No really, I dont care whose fault it was, or how much money some rich dude put into the project. I dont care if it was a designer, producer, developer, key grip, or the water guys fault the game sucked. After reading this article, while Im hitting my cancel subscription button in my account management screen, Im not going to be saying to myself: Well, sure the game was boring, half-done, and a clear copy of WoW. But at least I know it wasnt Bob Johnson the developers fault! No, thats not going to make me feel better about the money I just wasted, and the money your company wont be receiving. No amount of complaining and explaining to me why it wasnt you or the devs fault isnt going to change the fact that Im still not paying for something that sucks. Making, funding, and developing is hard you say? Ok, but you still need to make something that is fun to play, no matter who dropped the ball - in order for me to pay you. I feel that articles like these and responses from devs are just ways to make themselves feel better, and thats fine, but I really dont care. Im sorry you dont have employment with blizzard, and someone else keeps screwing up your projects, but in the end, its the millions of gamers that are paying for your salary, and if the project youre apart of sucks, then youre going to be labeled with it. If you dont like that, then I would suggest another profession. It's pretty obvious now, some MMO companies and/or investors need to spend more time and money finding the source of failure and eliminate it, rather than spend millions of dollars trying to copy something that already has the market cornered.
And only his second post :-p
Another thing I see a lot is adding stuff to keep us busy and playing. The Devs are better coming out with a game that will only keep us playing for a few months than to have a game with a year of content but we get bored with the game before the free month is up.
They can add content to a good game and we will come back, you cant fix it after its broken. Not without a tremendous amount of work.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Comments
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Tabash</i> <br />
<b>
<p>Rule #1 of business : The customer is always right.</p>
</b></blockquote>
<p>That statement is flat wrong. Sure it holds water if you have ONE customer. What happens when you have more than one and they all disagree? They can't all be right... and you can't possibly remain profitable as a business if you try to make your product suit everyone of them.</p>
<p>Whoever coined that phrase was only dealing with one person at a time and was probably selling umbrella cans door to door.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
And this is the problem - most customers have a long wishlist of what they want in a product without considering the work that is involved or whether or not other people will like it as well.
This reminds me an early episode of The Simpsons. Homer was given the chance to make the car of his dreams at his Brother's car plant.
The logic thinking was since Homer was the "average American" his car design should appeal to the average customer - hence be successful.
As it turned out what Homer wanted in a car was totally different what other customers wanted.
A bad MMO is in the eyes of a beholder - one person may think it's worst game in the world while other person may think it's gold.
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/RZetlin
Most of the mmo company who started poor like EVE or niche one that we got today like darkfall and mortal online make sandbox mmorpg's with full loot, open world pvp.
They seem to not need too much money or devs(They got around 10 - 30 devs) to make their game because the players make their own content anyway in game. The devs dont need to spend time to hold each players hands in a park to guide them in the next quest, next location or tell them what to do next.
So if those rich company that are rich could make sandbox open world pvp with full loot instead of a theme park, i bet they would spend less time, less money and a small sub base as 30 000 only would be good enough to catch up on the amount of money they spended to make their game and if that game got time to upgrade over time like EVE did, it might end up hitting 300 000 subs one day.
So im just saying, rich company should stop making MMO's like wow. It cost too much and if it fail then its too much money waste. So they should make sandbox instead from now and see how it goes.
So after i readed the new journal, im still at it, Mainstram MMO's sux. Stop doing like wow do just to being at risk to waste money or to get money. stop doing competition with wow. Make an MO that cost less money like sandbox mmorpg's. Thats all im saying. Stop thinking that you will be succeful like wow. Because players will start your game and once theiy figure out its the same like their old game, they will go back there.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
What color is the umbrella can? Does it have Darth Vader on it? What size is the can? Will this umbrella can work well at my door? Can others use my umbrella can for thier umbrellas? Is this umbrella can better than my neighbor's umbrella can? Can I keep a rifle in the umbrella can? If this umbrella can is made from an Elephant's Foot is it illegal? So how many customers are buying this umbrella can?
Its true that this statement has more "water" with say selling jewlery but where it applies in a mass market is just as valid. Marketing Research is done to find group trends. Group Trends translate into targetable customer desires. When the larger group all agree on a given feature as a whole..."the customer is always right" is the guide to development. What most on forums like this don't understand is those large groups of customers never make vocal thier desires here. They just quietly quit games and move on to thier next entertainment. They will not engage you in debate as they don't care that much.
+ 1 10x
no one listens to feedback anyway. seems the thing to do when a game realizes it sucks [which is waaaay after the gamers decided the same] is now to switch to f2p model with micro suck transactions, fire everyone except the guy with the paypal passwords, and make a new game with the same suck, different textures.
"Most profitable" means, lots of people playing it, which requires! You guessed it!!! Wait, maybe not, actually I think you missed the puncline entirely. Quality polished , fun game for the masses. The game you probably hate the most, WoW. Isn't it in their f*king interest to make the best MMO ever?! It's like any other business. You don't even half to be in the industry to understand this. You just half to drop the fact that you are a snobbeling geek and use some common sense. Wait, that's rare too huh...
MMO's are made as well as "Possible", AKA, they will get put on the backburner for the??? Yes, thats right, the reasons stated in the article that you maybe forgot to read...
They have the same business regards as most quality "Customer service stores will". "The customer is always right, even if he's a complete tool". The last part is a inside joke for anybody on the planet who has held a job dealing with people. Actually... My 5 yearold sister understands this as well.
Good article.
#1 frustration in the MMORPG genre and the biggest reason so many suck? Failure to award additional time and money needed to release a game that is truly ready for launch!
When you've already invested close to $100 million and four years of development time in a title, why do so many publishers fail to see that granting an additional $20 million and another year to development, in exchange for doubling or tripling your chances of having a blockbuster title, is superior to cutting production and releasing a game almost guaranteed to fail?
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I work in Tech too....not the entertainment vertical ....but SaS ....so alot of similarties to MMO's who also work off the subscription based models. Both you and the author of the article made some good points. However some counters...
1) To the point you made about the WOW model.... I have a 2 word response.... Market Saturation.
You don't get to be successfull by opening the 412th burger joint on a street that has 411 other burger joints on it already. There is a reason why most MMO's never approach WOW level returns. You can't just follow a formula...even if you follow it to a T and expect huge returns.
The companies who really hit the monster successes tend to be the ones that find a product that NO ONE knows they want yet.... hence no one else has built/offered ..... but which a whole lot of people WOULD enjoy if was availble. That's alot riskier and more difficult to do.... and there is a very good chance of bombing. However, when a company does hit something like that right... THAT's the product that will make huge returns..... not WOW clone #347.
2) Let's be honest.....whether the financial people have any degree of competence whatsoever is an utter crapshoot. I don't know if that's true in your industry, but it's certainly true in mine. Sometimes the investors know what thier doing....other times the have absolutely no clue about the vertical they are investing in...... they just heard/read somewhere that the vertical was "hot" and want to be in it... they throw thier money at the guy who gives the best presentation, uses the right buzz-words and has a really good golf handicapp..... whether the project makes a lick of sense to anyone who really understands the vertical or not.
3) Again....not sure about your experiences but from mine..... I can say honestly that it's not that uncommon for huge decisions to be based on absolutely ZERO market research. I've also seen plenty of examples of market research being done and then blatantly ignored when it didn't fit with the results that the executive who ordered it WANTED to see. That's not even considering the quality of the research done....nor the fact that many times the researchers will cook the data because they know the customer who paid them to do it WANT's a particular outcome so that they can turn around and justify the decision....rather then the unvarnished truth.
Sometime major decisions are based upon nothing more then a magizine article that the CEO read.....that has absolutely nothing to do with the particular situation your project is in.....and doesn't translate at all.
I won't speak for you..... but what I've seen with my own eyes in the many years of my own work experience in Tech companies.....more then half the time resembles an episode of the Office....rather then NASA.
Paul Barnett said that World of Warcraft was The Beatles. He said that Warhammer Age of Reckoning was not trying to be The Beatles, they were going to be Led Zeppelin.
Of course, we all know now that they weren't Led Zeppelin. They were Spinal Tap.
The combination of vision, brains and brawn is a rare thing and the industry really doesn't churn out that many MMO's a year. How often do you see a really excellent movie?
The height of mediocrity is the challenge. It's practically a law of nature that most of these productions will be ruled by "nincompoops" on all levels. I like the Beatles just fine. I don't mind when they come on the radio, but I wouldn't buy one of their albums. It's just not my kind of band.
Alot of bands trying to be The Beatles lately. Me, I'm still waiting for Led Zeppelin. I know they'll come on stage one day, it's just a matter of time.
I think the problem is that the Vision is often just wrong. Look at a tight controlled game like Warhammer, Mark Jacobs had a vision, just the wrong one. The game should have been DAoC in the Warhammer world with a WoW interface and combat system. Instead it took too much elements from WoW, like battlegrounds.
They lost tons of players due to exhaustion on the battlegrounds aka scenario's, later on RvR was alot more fun, but the damage had been done. I still remember taking a 1 week break and when I got back it looked like half the server left, seriously. And that was in the second month after release I believe, so people liked the game at first, just as I did.
So after a while this vision was adjusted in a good direction, RvR was promoted and when I rejoined the game I had alot of fun in very active RvR. But now a new problem arises, everyone is doing RvR and no PVE, so PQ's were a ghost town ...
DAoC had PvE and RvR nicely balanced pre-ToA-NF, most DAoC vets will agree with me, I don't understand why Mythic did not try to work on their strong points instead of trying to compete with WoW.
WAR did bring a couple of nice things into the genre, like PQ's and the ToK, but that was not enough.
I really think producer(s) messed up the game with a wrong vision and not learning from the mistakes in the past.
I can give more examples of just plain bad vision, but I'll leave it at this for now.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
To add to this, the only visionaries that have not failed me yet are CCP, I am sure there are others, but I talk about personal experience.
Mythic ( with DAoC and WAR ), SOE ( with SWG ), EA ( with UO ), ... All have failed miserably in long term vision, imho.
Even WoW is not doing so great I think, however their next expansion is more horizontal in nature, so I applaud that, and perhaps are the changes in latest patch not so detrimental after all, and probably even in line with what most people want from Blizzard, on the other hand, everyone familiar with the mmo scene knows you should not always give what people ask, because they don't always know what they actually want
Anyway, just wanted add that.
p.s. Yes Dust514 scared me, and I still think it is a wrong turn, but I hope the damage won't be too big and a PC version will be released soon enough.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
This article is equivalent to telling children not to complain when they can't have ice cream.
Gamers are emotional cry babies and whine when they don't get what they want.
Another question I had after thinking about the artice:
If the "real" start of the death spiral for mmo's is its problems with "scope"(release date, financing, feature cuts, etc), then where does the overabundance/overuse of the "fantasy" genre come in to play?
After all...the first complaint I hear all the time from the mmo community is that they are tired of games featuring orcs/goblins/elves/swords/sorcery. And, since choosing the genre is pretty much a designer controlled decision...one that comes BEFORE any money is requested or a date is set, wouldn't that suggest that there are problems in the "vision" of many games BEFORE the "scope" is effected.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, while yes, money and time can make a game "suck"...isn't it possible that some (most?) developers just aren't that creative or imaginative in their ideas in the first place? (as evidenced by the lack of diversity in mmo genres)
First off, when someone here says "its the developers fault", usually he/she does not mean developers in the same sense as a game company. For a game company a dev is some specific job. For us as gamers developers are everyone who do a part in developing the game. So everyone, essentially. And how then can you NOT say its the developers fault? Now yes, before you bog me down with precision of speech, sure I can say "its everyone in charge's fault" but that does sound complicated, so I say "all those who develop the game and have a say in the game" or in short: THE DEVS.
That much been said, one of the basic reasons MMOs fail IMVPO is, outside of these technical reasons, rooted in two failures:
(A) The failure to see through a gamer's eye.
Sorry to say, but I have this fundamental feeling most people involved in development decisions don't have the view of the average player. Everyone in the development team fall in love with some particular part. Its quite simple to proof. I have been in many closed betas in early stages, and there always are many testers who point at all the cruicial issues quite early. But the "devs" (definition see above) simply don't listen. The truth is OUT THERE, it is SAID, but to no avail. They listen to fanbois because thats more comfortable. They delude themselves "it will magically work out". Sorry, I have seen enough intelligent people testing and KNOWING what would be a big issue, and they simply dont listen because many devs have no clue what really works.
(B) The failure to assume artistic power which they dont have
Art is something you need an artist for. A game is broken down in several parts who require a sense for art. You need tailors and amor designers for the gear, you need architects for the houses, you need people with a feeling for landscapes to design cool landscapes. And finally you need REAL AUTHORS to write good story via quests, dialogues and characterizations. A mere programmer won't do! A mere bean counter aka CEO won't do! NONE of these people is qualified in the arts. It is the hubris of programmers to thing, everyone who can hold a pencil can draw a cool clothing or armor design! It is hubris of pixel pushers to think, everyone who knows the alphabet can write good stories! Thats the whole issue! Most games are PLAGUED by the most forseeable stories, the most hollow and cliche quest stories, the most boring dialogues. Dammit, you dont think you are an author just because you can write! I mean, a game does not need a Pulitzer, but when I look at most games and esp. MMORPGs, I could cry tears for the hilariously bad level of writing most quests and stories have!
Those two issues are IMVPO the most grave reason for the many mediocre and sucktastic MMOs we have seen. Visual trash like Warhammer, story trash like post-Tortage AoC. Games which are not so much mired by the financial shortcomings mentioned in the article or the 99%, but by said two issues. At least thats my 2ct about it.
Solutuion:
LISTEN TO YOUR TESTERS!
HIRE SOME GODDAMN ARTISTS AND REAL WRITERS!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"Often these comments are laced with more expletives and leet speek than my example which is understandable since gamers are very passionate and loyal creatures typically complete and utter douchebags, as evidenced by the overwhelmingly douchebaggy responses to this article. Yes, douchebaggy."
I'm sorry, but this article was hilarious. Was I the only one who saw it that way? First, everyone is just entirely too uptight in responding to this thing. It seems like just a bunch of inside detail revealing that the majority of games are underfunded, doomed projects loaded with rampant scope creep and people who couldn't follow a budget if it came with a GPS. These types of things happen every day in corporate America, they just aren't as visible. People lose jobs, massive layoffs occur, and huge losses are incurred because some project manager decided the money set aside to pay for Artist #4 would instead be the public slush fund (read: beer and pizza money), as you can certainly get by with just the 3 artists, right? Ok, it's never that obviously stupid, but hopefully you get the point. This type of buffoonery isn't limited to games. But the article was hilarious, regardless. Well done!
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
Some devs are like mechanical robots. All brain and no common sense. They don't know what gamers like and sometimes I even wonder if they ever been around a player commnity before.
Have you ever called up a company’s customer service and complained about a product, but then they blamed the problem on some other department in that same company? Does that solve your problem? No. Do you still want satisfaction? Yes.
The problem I have with this article and with most of what “Dev4Aliving” has to say is this: So what now? I still don’t care. No really, I don’t care whose fault it was, or how much money some rich dude put into the project. I don’t care if it was a designer, producer, developer, key grip, or the water guy’s fault the game sucked. After reading this article, while I’m hitting my “cancel subscription” button in my account management screen, I’m not going to be saying to myself: “Well, sure the game was boring, half-done, and a clear copy of WoW. But at least I know it wasn’t Bob Johnson the developers fault!” No, that’s not going to make me feel better about the money I just wasted, and the money your company won’t be receiving. No amount of complaining and explaining to me why it wasn’t you or the dev’s fault isn’t going to change the fact that I’m still not paying for something that sucks. Making, funding, and developing is hard you say? Ok, but you still need to make something that is fun to play, no matter who dropped the ball - in order for me to pay you.
I feel that articles like these and responses from “devs” are just ways to make themselves feel better, and that’s fine, but I really don’t care. I’m sorry you don’t have employment with blizzard, and someone else keeps screwing up your projects, but in the end, it’s the millions of gamers that are paying for your salary, and if the project you’re apart of sucks, then you’re going to be labeled with it. If you don’t like that, then I would suggest another profession. It's pretty obvious now, some MMO companies and/or investors need to spend more time and money finding the source of failure and eliminate it, rather than spend millions of dollars trying to copy something that already has the market cornered.
In the final result...this is all that will matter. Good post Xanthas.
Well said.
I've said this before and I'll say this again: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A GAME DESIGNER OR A GAME DEVELOPER TO CRITICIZE A GAME.
Are all film critics film makers? Are all literary critics authors? Are all television critics television producers? In some cases yes they very much are, but in many cases (most cases) no, they are not.
Anyone with an opinion can criticize an MMO, you do not have to be an MMO developer to do so!
What you wrote is nothing more than a stupid fallacy that needs to be shot in the head before its stupidity infects anyone else.
What's really sad is that there is something lacking in a lot of MMORPGs that devs never seem to get, and that's the basic fundamental of "fun". Way too often a game is created that makes the game work, not fun, and then they get the impression that if they make the gamer work really hard for the results, then it will somehow translate to fun. Some games succeeded in that capacity but for different reasons. One was Everquest which required a lot of work to get results sometimes, but that game existed in a time when there wasn't a lot of competition around. It WAS the big boy on the block, so they could do that, and gamers went along with it.
Nowadays, most games are faced with the behemoth that is WoW, and they see it as some albatross that is to be beaten or copied, but what it is actually is a lot of fun. If you play WoW, you play a game that is designed around a lot of fun, and lots of hours of involvement that is nothing but fun. Sure, you might eventually get bored of it, but it's going to bring a lot of fun before that happens. I keep coming back to that game, mainly because it's fun.
I think devs really miss that a lot. Fun. Simple fun.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
Some?
World of Warcraft is a proof that MMORPG quality should affect schedule/budget and not the other way around.
one factor that bgan to annoy me is the sound(mood)some try to bring
you know like you go see a movie but the movie sound is so bad its a renter
like the game would be good but some sound choice are so fugly that you would rater ear your dog sing instead
The point of half of the debates about MMOs stem from a very simple idea. Stop trying to be World of Warcraft and do something else. Yes, lots of people like WoW. Yes, it is making a killing. But just because Blizzard can do it doesn't mean you can!! WoW was a success because of the new things they did, and the new approaches they took to old ideas. It wasn't because they copied previous games. Yeah, being the next WoW would rock. But the next WoW won't be WoW. It'll be something else. Just like the next EQ was WoW, not EQ2.
Dear Devs, DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL. That is the only way you're going to succeed. And even worse, you probably won't succeed if you do something original. But if you don't, you certainly won't win.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
And only his second post :-p
Another thing I see a lot is adding stuff to keep us busy and playing. The Devs are better coming out with a game that will only keep us playing for a few months than to have a game with a year of content but we get bored with the game before the free month is up.
They can add content to a good game and we will come back, you cant fix it after its broken. Not without a tremendous amount of work.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.