You know I've always wondered why developers don't make PvPvE games that separate PvP skills/stats/items from PvE ones more often (if ever?). Sure it'd be more time consuming but would help alleviate problems with balancing for PvP screwing up PvE or vice versa. In essence the it'd be more time consuming thing would balance itself out because you wouldn't be performing a high wire act trying to not break one or the other.
Anyway, good read. And you should have known that if you weren't going to boast about the wonders of PvP in your article then you know you suck, are a carebear, know nothing of MMOs, hate your mom and whatever...
I would love to address these comments. Shadow Bane as a PVP game was a complete success. Yes, it was a horrible launch with bugs, lag and really just a beta, but as a PvP game it did "Crush". there has been nothing like it, build an empire, defend it, make alliances, use politics or watch your Keeps fall. Leveling was simple, easy, and fast, I have no clue where "tedious" leveling came from, being a vet of the game, it was days to reach max level. The character combos and templates and flavors of the month chars, were awesome. Something new always answered the "it" build.
If Shadow Bane was launched right, polished, and run and supported correctly, we would still be playing the game this very day. It truely was the only PvP game since UO for us PvPers!
I think we're in basic agreement. Shadowbane was a fun game for the people that grokked it and wanted free-form PvP - as I said, the basic design was sound. Where it fell down was in execution - players simply weren't willing to put up with the level of bugs and lack of polish. The game never was able to recover from its launch. And by "tedious levelling" - the game was very much not built around PvE, yet required PvE levelling. Monsters in the game were generic, boring bags of semi-mobile XP with little rhyme or reason. Hardcore players didn't care because they got in guild groups and AFK-botted their way to max level. Players not as hardcore got bored and frustrated and left. Thus you had a game with few players, little profitability, and eventual closure.
funny mentioning this since darkfall just revamped their whole pve AI to make it more of a challenge and enjoyable.
love the article. as a non-pvper (carebear) I am quite anti PVP for several reasons first many of the PVPers ive meet seem to be well... jerks immature, wanting to proof how big their manhood is even if it means killing vastly weak and unarmed players, some just like caussing other players pain. game developers do tend to seem to create games in isolation "reinventing the wheel" as it were,, some things need to be the same or similar almost standardized like resizeable windows in the UI (suprising how many games havent included this 20th century advancement) as a "carebear" i tend to follow these pvp rules 1. for the most part I want to be able to choose when I participate in PVP encounters that measn if im farming or mining im not wanting to have to worry about being ganked. i dont want the game play GIMPED to try to force me to PVP. 2. I want different extreems to the PVP areas some being non-lethal so that i can "test the waters" or get some expirence fighting PVPers without the all or nothing risk. 3. I prefer areas or battle lines or neutral zones where I know that PVP occures there. i dont mind if these areas change or fluxuate like areas of control. 4. as a casual player I want to be able to be effective enough to survive long enough to be able to enjoy PVP. if im gonna travel for 2 hours and end up dieing in the first 5 seconds or that the enemy is so advanced there effectivly immune to anything I do that I wont bother showing up. I was going to use EVE for my example since its very hard core PVP and your effectivly not safe anywhere and non-PVPers are 2nd class citizens and they are the ONLY viable scifi MMO operating you either tough out a meger existance or you leave the game,, I have encountered many EVE refugees I thought STO was gonna make EVE into a ghost town but its obvious that STO is not up to the task. anyone ever make a casual player friendly version of EVE let me know (though i do hope they do a better job of adding content to their solar systems and planets)
One reason you cannot make games for both PvErs and PvPers. For eve to cater to you as a gamer it would basically ruin the whole fundamentals of the game.
One of the things I like about eve though is the way they cater to Non Pvpers and Pvpers. Empire space is nice and you can enjoy the game there a lone. But you get into 0.0 and that is where the good mining, production and high ends NPCS and high end paying missions are. In my opinion they are risking more so they deserve bigger payouts. Also if you flipped this around the PvP in eve would simply not work since everyone would huddle empire space.
This is opposed to something like darkfall, where it does not cater to you at all. Or games like lotro or wow where PvP is a soccer (football for those across the pond) tournament.
as a non-pvper (carebear) I am quite anti PVP for several reasons first many of the PVPers ive meet seem to be well... jerks immature, wanting to proof how big their manhood is even if it means killing vastly weak and unarmed players, some just like caussing other players pain.
Alas, that's my impression of the most vocal and militant members of the PvP community.
Real life is FFA PvP with full looting, you know. There's a reason why you don't usually get ganked when you're down at the mall.
There are consequences in the real world for being a jerk...or, as we call them in the real world, after they've faced sanctions for being a jerk, a criminal.
Online games, though, are like online fora: no one knows you're a dog. Anonymity allows for a lot of behaviors that would otherwise be kept in that deep dark place.
The other problem with PvP is that you've got the supreme irony of other maniacal PvPers being your content. Which means that being a jerk will eventually kill your fun.
I remember in SWG there was this guy who claimed to be a big roleplayer, who was an Imperial, yet he couched his role playing in terms of "I'm going to crush your guild". The problem is that guilds are a game construct, not something that exists in the world of Star Wars. What guild or player association a player is in shouldn't make a difference as far as role play is concerned. So it was obvious that he was working out some RL issues with others online...Darth Sidious could feel his anger, I"m sure.
So this guy was undermining his own play experience by being such a rancorous person...he was pissing off his content, his fellow PvPers.
THAT makes PvP an interesting dynamic in a game. The fact that you can have your fun as a gankaholic asshat for only a short period of time before your prey leaves.
Which is why FFA PvP isn't much of a long term business model for an MMO.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Regardless of personal experience with PvP in MMOs, the article was a nice read, and got me thinking. As someone who rarely dabbles in the PvP area myself, I must admit that I've had a constant interest in it. Why I haven't gotten fully into the arena, however, is because I've not felt viable. In my opinion, (a crude one, since I'm still learning about the intricacies of PvP mechanics) a good sense of PvP is when you can take a fresh character and get onto a battlefield and not be crushed by a max-level character who is fully-geared and targeting characters so far below them they just have to twitch to kill them. I've had a bit of this experience games, WoW, AoC, and DaoC being just a few. Now, again, I'm pretty new to the PvP world, but is this sector of games reserved for the "elite"? If so, should it? I enjoy competition, and I'm not someone who pitches a fit when he loses, but I also don't desire to spend countless hours gearing up and researching builds just to have a chance of winning a fight. Maybe I'm making too much of an exaggeration. My point is this: Is there a game, or can one be made, where PvP doesn't feel like a separate enitity in a game; one so entiwined with aspects such as PvE that it moves seamlessly between the two? I think if a solution like this can, or has been, found it would make the experience of a game better. But again, this is just my opinion. I'm very open to hearing what avid PvPers have to say on the topic, their experience and how they adapted to the game playstyle.
Darkfall Online has done an exceptional job of combining PvE and PvP in to one game. It does not feel detached in the least. There are no levels in DFO, as it is a skill based game where skills increase upon use of them. A new player in DFO would have a tough time alone in PvP for sure, but in a guild, with a group, even a newbie can make a difference and end up the winner if they play smart.
Per other comments in this thread, DFO has no stuns or memorize type spells. PvP and PvE go hand in hand are PvP is the most skill based of any game I've played, except UO, but with some more time, DFO may top that as well.
re Polearm debate on DFO forums, it is pretty funny, but they aren't entirely wrong. There was a polearm balance done months ago that felt pretty good; but I don't use PA's so no idea if the complaining has merit or not. I do know that the developer of DFO, AV, plays its own game and makes these decisions based upon their in-game experience, and not just by the level of whining on message boards, which by the way, is the real historical problem with PvP in MMO's. Developers typically lose control to the suits at the top of the corporate entity they are owned by. Fortunately, AV doesn't have this problem to contend with.
Re generalizations about the type of folks that love PvP, I can understand where it comes from. There are some real lunatics that are PvPrs; but they get all the attention. The majority are mature and rarely even use message boards, so they just aren't as vocal. Also, PvPrs hardly have a cornerstone on being jerks. I've seen players use the lack of open PvP to be real asshats in PvE games as well. It's not about PvE or PvP, but about people and the Internet. In my guild of 100 on Darkfall, there isn't 1 jerk as we mutually understand the term, among them.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
DF was the first time since UO i have run into the friendly PK. These are an odd group but they will kill you and loot you but when you go to retrieve your body they will normally hand you back your noob weapon and other gear you need but they don't(which they kept others from ninja looting) and give you a few tips.
Its normally a very good experience.
I am posting way to much in this thread.
Also in regards to PvP and RP. It is normally the best way to RP. Non full loot, ffa rping normally just breaks down into little unconnected drama clubs. UO FFA PvP Allow us to make our own rules and stay united as a community. We would fight each other and not loot, but loot non RPers and griefers. Story lines actually had more consistency to them. Plus it normally drove off the thin skinned RPers who were really good at ruining rp worse then the gankers.
You know I've always wondered why developers don't make PvPvE games that separate PvP skills/stats/items from PvE ones more often (if ever?). Sure it'd be more time consuming but would help alleviate problems with balancing for PvP screwing up PvE or vice versa. In essence the it'd be more time consuming thing would balance itself out because you wouldn't be performing a high wire act trying to not break one or the other.
Eventually - maybe in another five or six years - all the other MMOs will catch up to UO.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I lol'ed, as it were. He talked about forum warriors rushing to the attack in the article and then was promptly swarmed by forum warriors the minute his article went up. It was nice to see people emphasising his point for him.
I lol'ed, as it were. He talked about forum warriors rushing to the attack in the article and then was promptly swarmed by forum warriors the minute his article went up. It was nice to see people emphasising his point for him.
He's no spring chicken to the forum fight either. He is just as much as a forum fighter as the rest of us, probably more.
If you couldnt handle Shadowbanes hardcore system then dont bitch about it, theres a lot of people who will say its among the most original, entertaining MMO's released.
That was just one big whinefest. Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.
I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?
dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple
theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.
lol, I'm trying to read what you typed but its difficult.
He had a point, there's a lot of people who would rather "gank" then "quest" to level up/skill up...but most games don't allow us to do that (DFO and UO I guess in a way)
In the end they just need to make 2 server types always - Hardcore PvP which has no carebear rules AT ALL, full loot, or full bag loot (which means equipment stays) and then of course your classic PvE server with the normal rules.
That was just one big whinefest. Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.
I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?
dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple
theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.
lol, I'm trying to read what you typed but its difficult.
He had a point, there's a lot of people who would rather "gank" then "quest" to level up/skill up...but most games don't allow us to do that (DFO and UO I guess in a way)
In the end they just need to make 2 server types always - Hardcore PvP which has no carebear rules AT ALL, full loot, or full bag loot (which means equipment stays) and then of course your classic PvE server with the normal rules.
The point is,there is no PvP rules
I try to explain this with my lvl1 english (talent in kindness)
theres PvE servers where you cant attack opposite side(kills virtual reality straight in 1 second)
and theres PvP server where you can attack opposite side,they just removed rule from their PvE rules but didnt give anything as substitute.
For example in wow PvP servers are perfect becose theres reason to kill people from opposite side,in matter of fact its more than a reason ,its best part of wows roleplaying cos you might actually really hate that opposite faction.
then theres this allmost new thing called full loot open PvPRPG where you can kill everybody,without a reason or with reason,so when you are PvP player or PvE player,then you are both at the same time,which is very good thing,but now,those rules,theres no rules for this kind of action at the moment.
when they say wiihuu we are full PvP without rules ,its like saying we make war without a reason.
so now on im going to say that Counter Strike is best Full loot PvP RP game in the market at the moment.
Hullo! Nice article. Unapologetic carebear here. (What can I say? I have low tolerance for idiots and asshats, and lord, does PvP bring those out in force.)
Look, I don't mind what you guys do to balance PvP. Over there. Away from me. If it can avoid breaking PvE, I am totally all for it. But when things happen specifically because of PvP that squash a character utterly in PvE... well, I get annoyed.
Anyone play City of Villains? I've never before flat dropped a character to remake them again... until that game. God help stalkers. I'm sure whatever specifically-specced stalker could do a good bit of damage in the VERY LIMITED available PvP and be asshats, but they were subpar at best in PvE unless you were terribly careful. And then the nerf came.
PvE and PvP are two utterly different ballgames. Kudos on WoW for eventually realizing that. I like the "This changes for PvP, not PvE" solution. Best of both worlds, I'll deal with the weird bugs.
To Jennings, Posters, and All. If you couldnt handle Shadowbanes hardcore system then dont bitch about it, theres a lot of people who will say its among the most original, entertaining MMO's released.
was "those" people you and your multiple personalities, because i have never heard ANYONE say that about shadowbane LOL.
Wow somebody sure slapped that article together in a hurry! Here's a tip start more than 20 minutes before your deadline so your throughts are cohesive. Also try to substantiate your claims with facts and source material. You almost had a good article on your hands here.
PvP-focused players are insistent on this - if a class is overpowered, everyone uses it, they use it to kill them, this is bad, and it should stop. Now. Or they’ll leave. And take their entire guild... Of thousands.
LOL this is so true, so true! I've read it so many times on so many boards. All those PvP whiners.. gosh.
I love the way Turbine did PvP or to be precise PvMP in LOTRO. You stay the hell out of my game (PvE) and I'll stay the hell out of your game (Ettenmoors for PvMP). Looove it this way. Separate chat channels, separate everything, almost like 2 different games with exception that you can go to that OTHER game with PvP rules if you want to but not the other way around. Keep those PvPers in their cage, if I want to go PvP, I'll go visit their cage. Otherwise they'd be like dogs in other open PvP games - annoying as hell. Very good solution.
No griefing, no crying in world channel, everything is so nice and quiet, if you disable OOC channel of course. There is another thing - raiding. That one brings a lot of idiots in as well. Not as many as PvP though but still. So, many people prefer to stay away from their "chat" in OOC channel. Funny thing is that they are like a virus, they migrate from one spot to the other. After realising that everyone disabled OOC they've occupied GLFF channel used to find a group. PvPers are in a lot of cases same as raiders - annoying as hell. I guess its just a nature of a player no matter what age their are. They are just being themselves - annoying as hell. I wonder what kind of people they are in a real life. Something make me believe they are not far from what they are in games.
. Shadowbane was the primary proof of this concept - a group of developers who cut their teeth on a hardcore PK mud, and spent years bringing that vision to life, in short bursts between postings on message boards about "not playing games to bake bread, but playing them to CRUSH!" (a direct quote from the game's art director, later memorialized in the game's marketing). When Shadowbane finally launched, it was an innovative sandbox-PvP design that was crippled by game-killing bugs, tedious leveling, and exploit-ridden combat. (In a footnote that cannot be touched for irony, most of the founding developers of Shadowbane later moved on to KingsIsle, and the successful tween-friendly and not at all dark and hardcore MMO Wizard 101.)
I would love to address these comments. Shadow Bane as a PVP game was a complete success. Yes, it was a horrible launch with bugs, lag and really just a beta, but as a PvP game it did "Crush". there has been nothing like it, build an empire, defend it, make alliances, use politics or watch your Keeps fall. Leveling was simple, easy, and fast, I have no clue where "tedious" leveling came from, being a vet of the game, it was days to reach max level. The character combos and templates and flavors of the month chars, were awesome. Something new always answered the "it" build.
If Shadow Bane was launched right, polished, and run and supported correctly, we would still be playing the game this very day. It truely was the only PvP game since UO for us PvPers!
When all is said and done a scripted AI mobile cannot reach anywhere near the playing skills of an averagely intelligent player. The game has to have a very defined play field, such as chess, for an AI to compete with a human and MMORPGs are not so strictly defined. So since MMORPGs are by definition for massively amount of people, why would you then spend your time competing with an AI? Isnt a single player game the natural choice for that?
I don't think its the play field, but more that creatures are defined much different than humans. DF is the perfect example where the mobs are defined very similar to humans, with the ability to produce ranged, melee, and magic attacks.
The bitter truth is that you can't have true balance unless everyone has access to the same items/power etc. Balance is needed in PVP or everyone will just flock to the most powerful be that class/side/build whatever.
The second thing to swallow is the fact that you can't mix PVE and PVP. It simply can't happen as you will NEVER achieve balance. WOW has made this mistake and has lost a ton of players over the last couple years. They have nerfed PVE so much due to PVP that they had to dumb down the PVE content to compensate. It's really pathetic.
Diversity in classes/powers etc does not work in PVP. About the only true MMOFPS is Planetside. Great game, full PVP, tons of fun. The problem? Flavor of the Day. People flock to which ever side is overpowered that day. Thus making the game one sided to a degree even though there are 3 factions.
Replay ability of PVP games is also a downfall. True PVP games usually consist of the same thing done over and over again.
MMO's need to be PVE centric and simply allow duels. Balance the game on PVE and let the PVP settle as it may. Stop trying to cater to BOTH sides and stop trying to quite the Forum complainers. Make your game the way you want it and be done with it. Nerf bats are never a good idea.
While it is true that some HC PVP games do well I have to wonder how well they might do if they allowed players to choose a PVEplay style. Better..be able to toggle between the two.
I played MUDS in the late 70s and noticed a huge difference in the success of these games based on how PVE/PVP was handled. One, Dragonmud, was open pk...kill, loot the player...in many cases just to grief them. The mud had some great areas but never seemed to be able to attract a large following. Contrast this with Aardwolf where a player, and if desired, a guild ,could choose between the 2. FYI, Muds, as a general rule, were free due to licence restrictions on the base code.
Dragonmud failed but Aardwolf had a base of over 6000 (huge for a mud) and recieved enough donations from players to keep expanding and buy equipment and even a T1 line. Everyone was happy. It is still going strong (er) today.
Before I get called a carebear...I was in 2 guilds, both Pk (without the loot player option). Light, a pk but also helpful and NOT a lowbie ganker and before I left, Dominion, which was pretty hard core PK.
The bottom line is MMOs are in business to make money. If they do, they suceed. If they don't they are soon just a memory.
Uncommon sense!
It would make sense to allow both the pvp and pve optional as it would result in a much larger player base. One that would see a some migration of newer pve players to pvp as they got more comfortable with the game.
This approach benifits all players because the larger player base means more profit and keeps the game viable. If you love X game I would think you would want it to do as well as possible....maybe even take the crown from WOW? The fact that some players choose a casual pve existance will never hurt the pvp lovers. They can either be gone if the game doesn't meet thier needs or be a contributer in what keeps a game going....money.
At the very least there should be a restriction that prevents griefing. A new player getting crushed by a player having a large level advantage, so much so they can't even hit them, isn't fun.
There is a forum on Aion where one particularly stauch PVP ONLY. leave if you don't like it turns out to have just over 250 kills. Not bad cept this same player has fewer abyss point than a player with 4 kills. All these kills were players of far lower level players. This is not good for the game. New players leave...with thier subscription fees, friends and, sometimes guilds . They also warn friendsof the poor balance etc. Not good. Certainly not profitable.
Comments
You know I've always wondered why developers don't make PvPvE games that separate PvP skills/stats/items from PvE ones more often (if ever?). Sure it'd be more time consuming but would help alleviate problems with balancing for PvP screwing up PvE or vice versa. In essence the it'd be more time consuming thing would balance itself out because you wouldn't be performing a high wire act trying to not break one or the other.
Anyway, good read. And you should have known that if you weren't going to boast about the wonders of PvP in your article then you know you suck, are a carebear, know nothing of MMOs, hate your mom and whatever...
I think we're in basic agreement. Shadowbane was a fun game for the people that grokked it and wanted free-form PvP - as I said, the basic design was sound. Where it fell down was in execution - players simply weren't willing to put up with the level of bugs and lack of polish. The game never was able to recover from its launch. And by "tedious levelling" - the game was very much not built around PvE, yet required PvE levelling. Monsters in the game were generic, boring bags of semi-mobile XP with little rhyme or reason. Hardcore players didn't care because they got in guild groups and AFK-botted their way to max level. Players not as hardcore got bored and frustrated and left. Thus you had a game with few players, little profitability, and eventual closure.
funny mentioning this since darkfall just revamped their whole pve AI to make it more of a challenge and enjoyable.
That was just one big whinefest.
Don't like pvp, don't do it. or don't play the game. It's really that simple.
I dislike questing, should I cry about it in every other thread too?
The Official God FAQ
dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple
theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.
Generation P
One reason you cannot make games for both PvErs and PvPers. For eve to cater to you as a gamer it would basically ruin the whole fundamentals of the game.
One of the things I like about eve though is the way they cater to Non Pvpers and Pvpers. Empire space is nice and you can enjoy the game there a lone. But you get into 0.0 and that is where the good mining, production and high ends NPCS and high end paying missions are. In my opinion they are risking more so they deserve bigger payouts. Also if you flipped this around the PvP in eve would simply not work since everyone would huddle empire space.
This is opposed to something like darkfall, where it does not cater to you at all. Or games like lotro or wow where PvP is a soccer (football for those across the pond) tournament.
Alas, that's my impression of the most vocal and militant members of the PvP community.
Real life is FFA PvP with full looting, you know. There's a reason why you don't usually get ganked when you're down at the mall.
There are consequences in the real world for being a jerk...or, as we call them in the real world, after they've faced sanctions for being a jerk, a criminal.
Online games, though, are like online fora: no one knows you're a dog. Anonymity allows for a lot of behaviors that would otherwise be kept in that deep dark place.
The other problem with PvP is that you've got the supreme irony of other maniacal PvPers being your content. Which means that being a jerk will eventually kill your fun.
I remember in SWG there was this guy who claimed to be a big roleplayer, who was an Imperial, yet he couched his role playing in terms of "I'm going to crush your guild". The problem is that guilds are a game construct, not something that exists in the world of Star Wars. What guild or player association a player is in shouldn't make a difference as far as role play is concerned. So it was obvious that he was working out some RL issues with others online...Darth Sidious could feel his anger, I"m sure.
So this guy was undermining his own play experience by being such a rancorous person...he was pissing off his content, his fellow PvPers.
THAT makes PvP an interesting dynamic in a game. The fact that you can have your fun as a gankaholic asshat for only a short period of time before your prey leaves.
Which is why FFA PvP isn't much of a long term business model for an MMO.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Darkfall Online has done an exceptional job of combining PvE and PvP in to one game. It does not feel detached in the least. There are no levels in DFO, as it is a skill based game where skills increase upon use of them. A new player in DFO would have a tough time alone in PvP for sure, but in a guild, with a group, even a newbie can make a difference and end up the winner if they play smart.
Per other comments in this thread, DFO has no stuns or memorize type spells. PvP and PvE go hand in hand are PvP is the most skill based of any game I've played, except UO, but with some more time, DFO may top that as well.
re Polearm debate on DFO forums, it is pretty funny, but they aren't entirely wrong. There was a polearm balance done months ago that felt pretty good; but I don't use PA's so no idea if the complaining has merit or not. I do know that the developer of DFO, AV, plays its own game and makes these decisions based upon their in-game experience, and not just by the level of whining on message boards, which by the way, is the real historical problem with PvP in MMO's. Developers typically lose control to the suits at the top of the corporate entity they are owned by. Fortunately, AV doesn't have this problem to contend with.
Re generalizations about the type of folks that love PvP, I can understand where it comes from. There are some real lunatics that are PvPrs; but they get all the attention. The majority are mature and rarely even use message boards, so they just aren't as vocal. Also, PvPrs hardly have a cornerstone on being jerks. I've seen players use the lack of open PvP to be real asshats in PvE games as well. It's not about PvE or PvP, but about people and the Internet. In my guild of 100 on Darkfall, there isn't 1 jerk as we mutually understand the term, among them.
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
DF was the first time since UO i have run into the friendly PK. These are an odd group but they will kill you and loot you but when you go to retrieve your body they will normally hand you back your noob weapon and other gear you need but they don't(which they kept others from ninja looting) and give you a few tips.
Its normally a very good experience.
I am posting way to much in this thread.
Also in regards to PvP and RP. It is normally the best way to RP. Non full loot, ffa rping normally just breaks down into little unconnected drama clubs. UO FFA PvP Allow us to make our own rules and stay united as a community. We would fight each other and not loot, but loot non RPers and griefers. Story lines actually had more consistency to them. Plus it normally drove off the thin skinned RPers who were really good at ruining rp worse then the gankers.
Eventually - maybe in another five or six years - all the other MMOs will catch up to UO.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I lol'ed, as it were. He talked about forum warriors rushing to the attack in the article and then was promptly swarmed by forum warriors the minute his article went up. It was nice to see people emphasising his point for him.
He's no spring chicken to the forum fight either. He is just as much as a forum fighter as the rest of us, probably more.
To Jennings, Posters, and All.
If you couldnt handle Shadowbanes hardcore system then dont bitch about it, theres a lot of people who will say its among the most original, entertaining MMO's released.
I play all ghame
dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple
theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.
lol, I'm trying to read what you typed but its difficult.
He had a point, there's a lot of people who would rather "gank" then "quest" to level up/skill up...but most games don't allow us to do that (DFO and UO I guess in a way)
In the end they just need to make 2 server types always - Hardcore PvP which has no carebear rules AT ALL, full loot, or full bag loot (which means equipment stays) and then of course your classic PvE server with the normal rules.
I play all ghame
Wait...have I missed something or the author is blaming pvp and pvp oriented gamers for all evil in this world ?
I smell a conspiracy theory equal that one about 9/11 inside job.
Shadowbane was a great game with good PVP and easy leveling.
dont like pvp,dont´t do it,or don´t play the game called real life.It´s really not that simple
theres rules and reasons for PvP in real life and there should be rules and reasons for PvP in virtual life.
lol, I'm trying to read what you typed but its difficult.
He had a point, there's a lot of people who would rather "gank" then "quest" to level up/skill up...but most games don't allow us to do that (DFO and UO I guess in a way)
In the end they just need to make 2 server types always - Hardcore PvP which has no carebear rules AT ALL, full loot, or full bag loot (which means equipment stays) and then of course your classic PvE server with the normal rules.
The point is,there is no PvP rules
I try to explain this with my lvl1 english (talent in kindness)
theres PvE servers where you cant attack opposite side(kills virtual reality straight in 1 second)
and theres PvP server where you can attack opposite side,they just removed rule from their PvE rules but didnt give anything as substitute.
For example in wow PvP servers are perfect becose theres reason to kill people from opposite side,in matter of fact its more than a reason ,its best part of wows roleplaying cos you might actually really hate that opposite faction.
then theres this allmost new thing called full loot open PvPRPG where you can kill everybody,without a reason or with reason,so when you are PvP player or PvE player,then you are both at the same time,which is very good thing,but now,those rules,theres no rules for this kind of action at the moment.
when they say wiihuu we are full PvP without rules ,its like saying we make war without a reason.
so now on im going to say that Counter Strike is best Full loot PvP RP game in the market at the moment.
Generation P
Hullo! Nice article. Unapologetic carebear here. (What can I say? I have low tolerance for idiots and asshats, and lord, does PvP bring those out in force.)
Look, I don't mind what you guys do to balance PvP. Over there. Away from me. If it can avoid breaking PvE, I am totally all for it. But when things happen specifically because of PvP that squash a character utterly in PvE... well, I get annoyed.
Anyone play City of Villains? I've never before flat dropped a character to remake them again... until that game. God help stalkers. I'm sure whatever specifically-specced stalker could do a good bit of damage in the VERY LIMITED available PvP and be asshats, but they were subpar at best in PvE unless you were terribly careful. And then the nerf came.
PvE and PvP are two utterly different ballgames. Kudos on WoW for eventually realizing that. I like the "This changes for PvP, not PvE" solution. Best of both worlds, I'll deal with the weird bugs.
was "those" people you and your multiple personalities, because i have never heard ANYONE say that about shadowbane LOL.
Wow somebody sure slapped that article together in a hurry! Here's a tip start more than 20 minutes before your deadline so your throughts are cohesive. Also try to substantiate your claims with facts and source material. You almost had a good article on your hands here.
PvP-focused players are insistent on this - if a class is overpowered, everyone uses it, they use it to kill them, this is bad, and it should stop. Now. Or they’ll leave. And take their entire guild... Of thousands.
LOL this is so true, so true! I've read it so many times on so many boards. All those PvP whiners.. gosh.
I love the way Turbine did PvP or to be precise PvMP in LOTRO. You stay the hell out of my game (PvE) and I'll stay the hell out of your game (Ettenmoors for PvMP). Looove it this way. Separate chat channels, separate everything, almost like 2 different games with exception that you can go to that OTHER game with PvP rules if you want to but not the other way around. Keep those PvPers in their cage, if I want to go PvP, I'll go visit their cage. Otherwise they'd be like dogs in other open PvP games - annoying as hell. Very good solution.
No griefing, no crying in world channel, everything is so nice and quiet, if you disable OOC channel of course. There is another thing - raiding. That one brings a lot of idiots in as well. Not as many as PvP though but still. So, many people prefer to stay away from their "chat" in OOC channel. Funny thing is that they are like a virus, they migrate from one spot to the other. After realising that everyone disabled OOC they've occupied GLFF channel used to find a group. PvPers are in a lot of cases same as raiders - annoying as hell. I guess its just a nature of a player no matter what age their are. They are just being themselves - annoying as hell. I wonder what kind of people they are in a real life. Something make me believe they are not far from what they are in games.
I don't think its the play field, but more that creatures are defined much different than humans. DF is the perfect example where the mobs are defined very similar to humans, with the ability to produce ranged, melee, and magic attacks.
SHADOWBANE was the MOST AWESOME and i hope and pray for a SHADOWBANE 2.
create unique one of a kind characters, jack of all trades or "spec" build
level up quickly
risk/ reward with inventory loot (not equipped items)
incredible daily group and multi group PvP
build a city
burn and destroy a city
...what other game allows you to "peak" or "steal" from another players inventory? ..but if you got caught.. jajajaja
lots of bugs,,, but that was one hella fun PvP game.
Aracaoix-Rogue-Barbarian-Medium Armor-Throwing Axes
The bitter truth is that you can't have true balance unless everyone has access to the same items/power etc. Balance is needed in PVP or everyone will just flock to the most powerful be that class/side/build whatever.
The second thing to swallow is the fact that you can't mix PVE and PVP. It simply can't happen as you will NEVER achieve balance. WOW has made this mistake and has lost a ton of players over the last couple years. They have nerfed PVE so much due to PVP that they had to dumb down the PVE content to compensate. It's really pathetic.
Diversity in classes/powers etc does not work in PVP. About the only true MMOFPS is Planetside. Great game, full PVP, tons of fun. The problem? Flavor of the Day. People flock to which ever side is overpowered that day. Thus making the game one sided to a degree even though there are 3 factions.
Replay ability of PVP games is also a downfall. True PVP games usually consist of the same thing done over and over again.
MMO's need to be PVE centric and simply allow duels. Balance the game on PVE and let the PVP settle as it may. Stop trying to cater to BOTH sides and stop trying to quite the Forum complainers. Make your game the way you want it and be done with it. Nerf bats are never a good idea.
Great read.
While it is true that some HC PVP games do well I have to wonder how well they might do if they allowed players to choose a PVEplay style. Better..be able to toggle between the two.
I played MUDS in the late 70s and noticed a huge difference in the success of these games based on how PVE/PVP was handled. One, Dragonmud, was open pk...kill, loot the player...in many cases just to grief them. The mud had some great areas but never seemed to be able to attract a large following. Contrast this with Aardwolf where a player, and if desired, a guild ,could choose between the 2. FYI, Muds, as a general rule, were free due to licence restrictions on the base code.
Dragonmud failed but Aardwolf had a base of over 6000 (huge for a mud) and recieved enough donations from players to keep expanding and buy equipment and even a T1 line. Everyone was happy. It is still going strong (er) today.
Before I get called a carebear...I was in 2 guilds, both Pk (without the loot player option). Light, a pk but also helpful and NOT a lowbie ganker and before I left, Dominion, which was pretty hard core PK.
The bottom line is MMOs are in business to make money. If they do, they suceed. If they don't they are soon just a memory.
Uncommon sense!
It would make sense to allow both the pvp and pve optional as it would result in a much larger player base. One that would see a some migration of newer pve players to pvp as they got more comfortable with the game.
This approach benifits all players because the larger player base means more profit and keeps the game viable. If you love X game I would think you would want it to do as well as possible....maybe even take the crown from WOW? The fact that some players choose a casual pve existance will never hurt the pvp lovers. They can either be gone if the game doesn't meet thier needs or be a contributer in what keeps a game going....money.
At the very least there should be a restriction that prevents griefing. A new player getting crushed by a player having a large level advantage, so much so they can't even hit them, isn't fun.
There is a forum on Aion where one particularly stauch PVP ONLY. leave if you don't like it turns out to have just over 250 kills. Not bad cept this same player has fewer abyss point than a player with 4 kills. All these kills were players of far lower level players. This is not good for the game. New players leave...with thier subscription fees, friends and, sometimes guilds . They also warn friendsof the poor balance etc. Not good. Certainly not profitable.