It is ridiculous that a carebear columnist is allowed to slander a game like Darkfall. Darkfall is doing very well and the game is only getting better. Just because you aren’t a fan of PvP doesn’t mean you need to trash it and games that are based off it. Just because Darkfall isn’t a WoW killer doesn’t mean they are doing well. EVE is another great example of a game based on PvP that has done very well. Don’t cite facts that are not true.
Im just saying hi to all the DF players that post often in mmorpg.com And the reason why shadowbane died had nothing to do with the pvp, but because of the bugs, you had to point and click to move around and it had too mcuh grind. While in DF, you cans teal city, in shadow bane, you had to destroy the whole base and reconstruct it with your clan money. Personally, thats why i left shadow bane, too mcuh grind.
Ok so about SB being a grind....ummm hotzones with r5 mobs drop like 2mil in 30 minutes.....a tree if you dont have a thief costs 3mil. To whoever said on page 1 of this post it tooks months to build a city....then why when they reset server were there cities up in a day? SB is the furthest thing from a grind that you will find, get max level in less than a day. Final point i have is about point and click combat....u make hotkeys....is it just me or is that obvious? I will never again play a game as awesome as SB. If you people are interested in it follow the link a couple of comments above and readup. As for the article....you obviously never played SB and are a carebear.
Sorry, but if you can honestly mention Shadowbane and "pvp fail" in the same freaking article, then you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. All it means is that you were one of the people too ignorant to understand Shadowbane, who left without giving it a decent try because of the steep learning curve and unforgiving world.
Shadowbane did NOT fail, it was by far the best mmo foundation ever laid. Shadowbane was a groundbreaking success in every single aspect other than graphics and engine quality. Shadowbane did not fail, the people in charge of Shadowbane failed.
We are but a handful of months away from Shadowbane's relaunch now, and it will be better than ever. Maybe now that people are finally starting to realize the absolute pointlessness of modern day cookie cutter mmos, they will give a REAL mmo a second chance.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
The bitter truth is that you can't have true balance unless everyone has access to the same items/power etc.
In what universe do you live in? Apparently not the real one.
Not only is it entirely possible, but most of science and metascience would entirely disagree.
Please name one MMO that is PVP centric where there is perfect balance of diverse classes and been a success.
The only way to achieve balance is to have the same stuff available to all (Pretty much any FPS). Again the ONLY MMOFPS is Planetside and it is as closed to balanced as it comes. However the NC are deemed the most powerful and thus is the most popular and pretty much wins any fight unless outnumbered greatly.
They are not MMOs, but fighting games can be reasonably balanced even though different characters have various over-the-top and overpowered abilities. I actually think the "all powers the same" method of balancing is a trap that developers can fall into, and they then try to achieve this by over-nerfing. It is okay to have overpowered abilities because lets be honest--that's why people play the game. They want to do something dramatic and ridiculously powerful. The key is not to let every character have access to every overpowered ability, and to string people along with some just semi-okay abilities as you space out their levelling to the really good stuff.
Again, witness something like BlazBlue or most modern fighting games. Many characters have "cheap" moves, and yet on the whole they are still rather balanced.
So I know I might get some flak for this, but it's worth mentioning.
Jenning's articles are, indeed, thought-provoking. It is his job, whether you disagree with him or not, to create an article based on his years of experience and, just as important, his clearly voiced opinions. This voice has spurred many debates over the years, and will no doubt spur even more in his future writings. And yet, as much as you can question the voice, you can never question the experience behind it. This man is an MMO legend, and it's good to have him here.
Scott, you're my MMO hero. Some are Carebears, others are hardcore PvPers, I'm just a follower of Lum the Mad.
Excellent article. What wasn't touched was that all of the balancing and re-balancing around PvP usually ends up causing even more damage to the PvE aspect of the game. I know the article wasn't about PvE, but nearly every MMO with PvP has a rather significant PvE portion.
Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but after having played numerous MMOs over the years I've come to the conclusion that balanced PvP in an MMO is inherently impossible. When you have so many factors such as character level, class skills/builds, gear, and a myriad of other variables that have a large influence on the outcome on PvP fights before skill even makes an entrance to the scene.
Personally I stick to RTS and FPS games when I want real, balanced, and truly skill based PvP gaming.
How did I know this article would bring out all the Darkfall fanboys to pile on Lum? Of course, anytime people criticize their precious and don't bow down to their God King Tasos, the fanboys start with their usual antics and rantings.
Nice article overall, Lum. I enjoy your writing here and on your blog. Keep up the good work.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
It seemed like you cited that Shadowbane failed because of their hardcore PvP approach and then went on to state that it failed for every other reason but that. I'm not saying the reasons you gave for for failure were wrong, rather where the connect is between the core gameplay (play to crush, territory control) and the failure.
If Shadowbane had better graphics and was bug free it would have more players than EVE Online. In fact, it sold more copies than DAoC did at release. That's gotta same something.
As for Darkfall, I made the prediction a few days ago that it will become the next best thing and possibly hit a million subs or more. With its current growth spurt that may come true in less time than I predicted (5 years). The only thing that will hold it back is if the developers react to slow to the growth.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Wow somebody sure slapped that article together in a hurry! Here's a tip start more than 20 minutes before your deadline so your throughts are cohesive. Also try to substantiate your claims with facts and source material. You almost had a good article on your hands here.
It's posts like these that demonstrate MMO players to be the worst class of gamers out there. No wonder most MMO forums are a complete trainwreck chock full of sociopaths.
Wow dude, I read that and wow. You should just stop talking, stop posting, just stop period. Your perspective is the cause of the entropic regression of MMORPG's. You are why skilled developers still consider MMO's to be in their infancy.
For all you developers, if you basically don't listen to Scott's lies, and realize he is playing you so he can keep his job, your game will most likely be wildly successful.
So I know I might get some flak for this, but it's worth mentioning. Jenning's articles are, indeed, thought-provoking. It is his job, whether you disagree with him or not, to create an article based on his years of experience and, just as important, his clearly voiced opinions. This voice has spurred many debates over the years, and will no doubt spur even more in his future writings. And yet, as much as you can question the voice, you can never question the experience behind it. This man is an MMO legend, and it's good to have him here. Scott, you're my MMO hero. Some are Carebears, others are hardcore PvPers, I'm just a follower of Lum the Mad. #K
Well, this article disappoints.
It mainly talks about class balancing and I wouldn't say it has provoked much thought.
What it has provoked is a bunch of Darkfall, EvE and Shadowbane fanbois to show up to defend their game in accordance with what was said in the second paragraph:
"Invoking PvP is the Godwin's Law of gaming discussions - in any discussion of game design, the longer the thread, the probability that someone will introduce PvP as either the reason for its subject's success or failure approaches 100%."
But other than that?
There's not a lot of interesting discussion going on.
The article just talks about PvP balance as if it's one on one and that other elements of the game don't factor in much.
There were a few other things touched on (should you listen to fanbois on the forums? How much damage can they do?) but these were by-passed.
And it did seem like the article was rushed.
Next week - how about something on the progress of the GSU and Aion?
I played Shadowbane for longer than i can remember it was a sad day when it closed. SB was the most original MMo to come out ever. It was 1 part game 1 part political masterpiece. I can remember having to forge alliance, Deflect enemy lies being told, Defending jerk off GL's just to keep the nation standing. the nation/guild I was in was threatened many of times with WE WILL WIPE YOU OFF THE MAP, but because of the political aspect of game I could well be a politician and create half truths to keep multiple enemies from joining our foes.
I had true enemies in SB I hated them so much I smiled every time i killed them/took one of their towns, but in truth and many of them knows this I considered them friends as well. Without them SB would of been Dull.
It was a good post, but a bit lengthy. All I got from it were things any PVP'r already knows. I did appreciate the DAoC references because it's still to this day the most thorough pvp experience I've had, but again, I already knew all that.
Something I've always thought about over the years is the way class balancing seems to be done. You always see the roller coaster of big nerfs to X and big buffs to X. I wonder what it'll be like when an OP class and/or spec is acknowledged, and instead of nerfing they try to bring the rest in-line.
/shrug
And for the record, post-nerf locks were still a fantastic class. The sheer utility on it was astounding, it just took a different type of player.
I'm confused. You listed multiple successful PvP games citing unique examples that could have just as easily been PvE problems. Yet somehow PvP breaks games?
Shadowbane, Darfkall, & Age of Camelot are/were awesome PvP games. The only reason Shadowbane & DAoC aren't particularly active anymore is because they are painfully dated. Darkfall is quite successful considering its a hardcore game designed by an independent developer, and continues to grow in scope and success each patch... much like its spaceship consort, Eve... and we all know how successful Eve is.
Next time title your article "how Nerfing can break your game". That was your point, and somehow you simply decided to attribute it to the evil PvPers.
Finally someone with the grapes to stand up and tell the truth about the sacred cow PVP. Scott Jennings you are my hero.
The problem with PVP today is that it is a shell with in the game. Instead of creating rich engaging progressive content, for the PVP part you create a shell where you pit players against each other and then let them create the dynamic. Problem is players are real people and typically want to win at the expense of other real players all the time. You can not control real players in the PVP shell. That being said game balance will always be a never ending struggle with that system. Newer games like Warhammer Online and Aion give you this great start in an engaging world only to find that soon down your road of destiny you HAVE to grind PVP to progress. So you end up feeling like you have been tricked into it, and you kind of have been. Honestly where PVP is concerned it almost seems like it should be a separate game with in the MMO, with out classes but only choices to make as you go in. IMO that is why the old shooter PVP games worked cause if you made bad choices in weapons and armor/vehicles, you could learn from it and make better choices. Once you grind up a MMORPG class your pretty much stuck with the choices that class has and often even altering those choices has penalty in the form if game currency with in a game.
A lot of us are waiting for a real new good quality PVE focused game. Unfortunately the cheaper development scheme of partial content then to the PVP shell has become the rule. I have gone back to WoW [where at least there is enough content so you can avoid the PVP mosh pits] for the 3rd time. The next time I quite[unless they(hopefully) get really smart] , it might even break me of my MMO addiction. I see no hope on the horizon of future games for a long term relationship with one, but I keep looking at least for now.
Oh the irony, of yet another Mythic dev trying to tell the industry how to correctly make games. Or rather how to 'not fail'.
I think the industry is far too young, and full of far too many flops to really start talking about the wisdom of making an MMO. People are already bored with the most successful method of making an MMO (the EQ model), and PvP is still a very young system (in regards to MMOs). It would be foolish to think that PvP is unwanted and pointless, given that the majority of games nowadays have some aspect of PvP in them. It goes a long way towards adding replayability, and when done right it's just plain fun.
Honestly, every decent MMO developer is basically in the same boat atm. They know players want a chance, but no one seems to really know what that change is, or how they will make it. There are current attempts to come up with the next big change, but we'll all have to wait and see as to what that eventually becomes, and whether or not it will be powerful enough to carry the genre forward.
The article had some decent points, but some very short-sighted examples. There was some sound advice in there, but not enough to really bring anything to the table. PvP games are holding their own, they aren't huge successes, but they aren't all failures either. Keep in mind that even WoW has pvp, it may not be it's focus, but it has it's place.
Originally posted by comerb Darkfall is quite successful considering its a hardcore game .
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
Originally posted by comerb Darkfall is quite successful considering its a hardcore game .
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
What you described is a newb problem in darkfall. If you are in a clan, being red dont mean shit. Being red only stop you from going back to capital city, buying stuff from some of your aligned npc's, you cant do any quests and you cant bind on capital alignment stone. Thats about it. Once you leave the newb part, you join a clan and those problem are all gone. So you dont trust anyone that is not in your clan because even blue can kill you. Thats how DF hardcore pvp is. Like in real life, dont talk to strangers. Darkfall teach you that, but instead, they teach you to kill the strangers if you have the possibility or run away from them.
you know what i found funny with your post, you compar it with wow while in wow, you cant even kill your ally's. In DF you can. In wow, you cant team up with the enemy race. In Df you can. in wow, you can trust anyone. And you can tell who are the bad and who are with you since the bad one names are in yellow on top of their heads. The good one names are green.And lol, WOW pvp is like the new NHL 2010. An E-sport. Where is the next pvp gear season 5 is coming out? LOL
I loved the article but not every PvPer dislike balancing. I loved every skill balance update they did for Guild Wars. And it was very much PvP focused game. And I played that game with passionate PvP focus.
I agree that devs should figure out themselves why the game might be broken - they should not listen to the forum warriors as mentioned in this article. I welcome balance updates if the devs know what they are doing.
WAR's release showed how hard balancing is even to an experienced company. The balance in the first month was... horrible. It seemed like they hardly tested the game at all.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by kcc9889 It is ridiculous that a carebear columnist is allowed to slander a game like Darkfall. Darkfall is doing very well and the game is only getting better. Just because you arent a fan of PvP doesnt mean you need to trash it and games that are based off it. Just because Darkfall isnt a WoW killer doesnt mean they are doing well. EVE is another great example of a game based on PvP that has done very well. Dont cite facts that are not true.
Lum The Mad is a "carebear columnist" and not a fan of Pvp?
ROFL
Other than completely missing the point of his article, it would appear that you are lookin' to defend Darkfall against an imagined threat. I think that's one of the reasons the Darkfall community gets the rep it has.
FYI...if you had played an MMO prior to 2002 odds are you'd know who Lum the Mad is, but do yourself a favor, go ahead and google him. Perhaps with some perspective you might re-read the article, and realize the point of view from which he is writing.
If Shadow Bane was launched right, polished, and run and supported correctly, we would still be playing the game this very day. It truely was the only PvP game since UO for us PvPers!
You had me up till this statement. Shadowbane failed cause there just was not enough PvE. all you PVP fanatics can say all you want but without PvE well, PvP games die out. PvE games done right live forever. Just admit it and maybe we get some some more decent mmo's that cover both rather then half ass shit.
Originally posted by comerb Darkfall is quite successful considering its a hardcore game .
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
What you described is a newb problem in darkfall. If you are in a clan, being red dont mean shit. Being red only stop you from going back to capital city, buying stuff from some of your aligned npc's, you cant do any quests and you cant bind on capital alignment stone. Thats about it. Once you leave the newb part, you join a clan and those problem are all gone. So you dont trust anyone that is not in your clan because even blue can kill you. Thats how DF hardcore pvp is. Like in real life, dont talk to strangers. Darkfall teach you that, but instead, they teach you to kill the strangers if you have the possibility or run away from them.
you know what i found funny with your post, you compar it with wow while in wow, you cant even kill your ally's. In DF you can. In wow, you cant team up with the enemy race. In Df you can. in wow, you can trust anyone. And you can tell who are the bad and who are with you since the bad one names are in yellow on top of their heads. The good one names are green.And lol, WOW pvp is like the new NHL 2010. An E-sport. Where is the next pvp gear season 5 is coming out? LOL
so if i join to a clan which is full of these so called "newbs" then magically they are hardcore ?
and in this pvp game me thinks (someone correct if im wrong) when someone is red to me ,means that i can attack him without losing alignment or getting attacked by towers,dunno why you didnt mention those.which is big part of PvP from the beginning.
Wow somebody sure slapped that article together in a hurry! Here's a tip start more than 20 minutes before your deadline so your throughts are cohesive. Also try to substantiate your claims with facts and source material. You almost had a good article on your hands here.
You're just angry b/c he showed how pvp can completely ruin a game. Go back to your hole...
Comments
It is ridiculous that a carebear columnist is allowed to slander a game like Darkfall. Darkfall is doing very well and the game is only getting better. Just because you aren’t a fan of PvP doesn’t mean you need to trash it and games that are based off it. Just because Darkfall isn’t a WoW killer doesn’t mean they are doing well. EVE is another great example of a game based on PvP that has done very well. Don’t cite facts that are not true.
Ok so about SB being a grind....ummm hotzones with r5 mobs drop like 2mil in 30 minutes.....a tree if you dont have a thief costs 3mil. To whoever said on page 1 of this post it tooks months to build a city....then why when they reset server were there cities up in a day? SB is the furthest thing from a grind that you will find, get max level in less than a day. Final point i have is about point and click combat....u make hotkeys....is it just me or is that obvious? I will never again play a game as awesome as SB. If you people are interested in it follow the link a couple of comments above and readup. As for the article....you obviously never played SB and are a carebear.
Sorry, but if you can honestly mention Shadowbane and "pvp fail" in the same freaking article, then you have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. All it means is that you were one of the people too ignorant to understand Shadowbane, who left without giving it a decent try because of the steep learning curve and unforgiving world.
Shadowbane did NOT fail, it was by far the best mmo foundation ever laid. Shadowbane was a groundbreaking success in every single aspect other than graphics and engine quality. Shadowbane did not fail, the people in charge of Shadowbane failed.
We are but a handful of months away from Shadowbane's relaunch now, and it will be better than ever. Maybe now that people are finally starting to realize the absolute pointlessness of modern day cookie cutter mmos, they will give a REAL mmo a second chance.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
In what universe do you live in? Apparently not the real one.
Not only is it entirely possible, but most of science and metascience would entirely disagree.
Please name one MMO that is PVP centric where there is perfect balance of diverse classes and been a success.
The only way to achieve balance is to have the same stuff available to all (Pretty much any FPS). Again the ONLY MMOFPS is Planetside and it is as closed to balanced as it comes. However the NC are deemed the most powerful and thus is the most popular and pretty much wins any fight unless outnumbered greatly.
They are not MMOs, but fighting games can be reasonably balanced even though different characters have various over-the-top and overpowered abilities. I actually think the "all powers the same" method of balancing is a trap that developers can fall into, and they then try to achieve this by over-nerfing. It is okay to have overpowered abilities because lets be honest--that's why people play the game. They want to do something dramatic and ridiculously powerful. The key is not to let every character have access to every overpowered ability, and to string people along with some just semi-okay abilities as you space out their levelling to the really good stuff.
Again, witness something like BlazBlue or most modern fighting games. Many characters have "cheap" moves, and yet on the whole they are still rather balanced.
So I know I might get some flak for this, but it's worth mentioning.
Jenning's articles are, indeed, thought-provoking. It is his job, whether you disagree with him or not, to create an article based on his years of experience and, just as important, his clearly voiced opinions. This voice has spurred many debates over the years, and will no doubt spur even more in his future writings. And yet, as much as you can question the voice, you can never question the experience behind it. This man is an MMO legend, and it's good to have him here.
Scott, you're my MMO hero. Some are Carebears, others are hardcore PvPers, I'm just a follower of Lum the Mad.
#K
Excellent article. What wasn't touched was that all of the balancing and re-balancing around PvP usually ends up causing even more damage to the PvE aspect of the game. I know the article wasn't about PvE, but nearly every MMO with PvP has a rather significant PvE portion.
Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but after having played numerous MMOs over the years I've come to the conclusion that balanced PvP in an MMO is inherently impossible. When you have so many factors such as character level, class skills/builds, gear, and a myriad of other variables that have a large influence on the outcome on PvP fights before skill even makes an entrance to the scene.
Personally I stick to RTS and FPS games when I want real, balanced, and truly skill based PvP gaming.
How did I know this article would bring out all the Darkfall fanboys to pile on Lum? Of course, anytime people criticize their precious and don't bow down to their God King Tasos, the fanboys start with their usual antics and rantings.
Nice article overall, Lum. I enjoy your writing here and on your blog. Keep up the good work.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
If Shadowbane had better graphics and was bug free it would have more players than EVE Online. In fact, it sold more copies than DAoC did at release. That's gotta same something.
As for Darkfall, I made the prediction a few days ago that it will become the next best thing and possibly hit a million subs or more. With its current growth spurt that may come true in less time than I predicted (5 years). The only thing that will hold it back is if the developers react to slow to the growth.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
It's posts like these that demonstrate MMO players to be the worst class of gamers out there. No wonder most MMO forums are a complete trainwreck chock full of sociopaths.
I tried! Unfortunately my word processor choked on the links at the last moment and I missed that one.
http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/12/10/how-to-make-a-game-with-pvp-done-right/
Wow dude, I read that and wow. You should just stop talking, stop posting, just stop period. Your perspective is the cause of the entropic regression of MMORPG's. You are why skilled developers still consider MMO's to be in their infancy.
For all you developers, if you basically don't listen to Scott's lies, and realize he is playing you so he can keep his job, your game will most likely be wildly successful.
Well, this article disappoints.
It mainly talks about class balancing and I wouldn't say it has provoked much thought.
What it has provoked is a bunch of Darkfall, EvE and Shadowbane fanbois to show up to defend their game in accordance with what was said in the second paragraph:
"Invoking PvP is the Godwin's Law of gaming discussions - in any discussion of game design, the longer the thread, the probability that someone will introduce PvP as either the reason for its subject's success or failure approaches 100%."
But other than that?
There's not a lot of interesting discussion going on.
The article just talks about PvP balance as if it's one on one and that other elements of the game don't factor in much.
There were a few other things touched on (should you listen to fanbois on the forums? How much damage can they do?) but these were by-passed.
And it did seem like the article was rushed.
Next week - how about something on the progress of the GSU and Aion?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I played Shadowbane for longer than i can remember it was a sad day when it closed. SB was the most original MMo to come out ever. It was 1 part game 1 part political masterpiece. I can remember having to forge alliance, Deflect enemy lies being told, Defending jerk off GL's just to keep the nation standing. the nation/guild I was in was threatened many of times with WE WILL WIPE YOU OFF THE MAP, but because of the political aspect of game I could well be a politician and create half truths to keep multiple enemies from joining our foes.
I had true enemies in SB I hated them so much I smiled every time i killed them/took one of their towns, but in truth and many of them knows this I considered them friends as well. Without them SB would of been Dull.
Play to Crush
I miss you SB
Xan of CoVE
Vindication for life
It was a good post, but a bit lengthy. All I got from it were things any PVP'r already knows. I did appreciate the DAoC references because it's still to this day the most thorough pvp experience I've had, but again, I already knew all that.
Something I've always thought about over the years is the way class balancing seems to be done. You always see the roller coaster of big nerfs to X and big buffs to X. I wonder what it'll be like when an OP class and/or spec is acknowledged, and instead of nerfing they try to bring the rest in-line.
/shrug
And for the record, post-nerf locks were still a fantastic class. The sheer utility on it was astounding, it just took a different type of player.
I'm confused. You listed multiple successful PvP games citing unique examples that could have just as easily been PvE problems. Yet somehow PvP breaks games?
Shadowbane, Darfkall, & Age of Camelot are/were awesome PvP games. The only reason Shadowbane & DAoC aren't particularly active anymore is because they are painfully dated. Darkfall is quite successful considering its a hardcore game designed by an independent developer, and continues to grow in scope and success each patch... much like its spaceship consort, Eve... and we all know how successful Eve is.
Next time title your article "how Nerfing can break your game". That was your point, and somehow you simply decided to attribute it to the evil PvPers.
Finally someone with the grapes to stand up and tell the truth about the sacred cow PVP. Scott Jennings you are my hero.
The problem with PVP today is that it is a shell with in the game. Instead of creating rich engaging progressive content, for the PVP part you create a shell where you pit players against each other and then let them create the dynamic. Problem is players are real people and typically want to win at the expense of other real players all the time. You can not control real players in the PVP shell. That being said game balance will always be a never ending struggle with that system. Newer games like Warhammer Online and Aion give you this great start in an engaging world only to find that soon down your road of destiny you HAVE to grind PVP to progress. So you end up feeling like you have been tricked into it, and you kind of have been. Honestly where PVP is concerned it almost seems like it should be a separate game with in the MMO, with out classes but only choices to make as you go in. IMO that is why the old shooter PVP games worked cause if you made bad choices in weapons and armor/vehicles, you could learn from it and make better choices. Once you grind up a MMORPG class your pretty much stuck with the choices that class has and often even altering those choices has penalty in the form if game currency with in a game.
A lot of us are waiting for a real new good quality PVE focused game. Unfortunately the cheaper development scheme of partial content then to the PVP shell has become the rule. I have gone back to WoW [where at least there is enough content so you can avoid the PVP mosh pits] for the 3rd time. The next time I quite[unless they(hopefully) get really smart] , it might even break me of my MMO addiction. I see no hope on the horizon of future games for a long term relationship with one, but I keep looking at least for now.
Oh the irony, of yet another Mythic dev trying to tell the industry how to correctly make games. Or rather how to 'not fail'.
I think the industry is far too young, and full of far too many flops to really start talking about the wisdom of making an MMO. People are already bored with the most successful method of making an MMO (the EQ model), and PvP is still a very young system (in regards to MMOs). It would be foolish to think that PvP is unwanted and pointless, given that the majority of games nowadays have some aspect of PvP in them. It goes a long way towards adding replayability, and when done right it's just plain fun.
Honestly, every decent MMO developer is basically in the same boat atm. They know players want a chance, but no one seems to really know what that change is, or how they will make it. There are current attempts to come up with the next big change, but we'll all have to wait and see as to what that eventually becomes, and whether or not it will be powerful enough to carry the genre forward.
The article had some decent points, but some very short-sighted examples. There was some sound advice in there, but not enough to really bring anything to the table. PvP games are holding their own, they aren't huge successes, but they aren't all failures either. Keep in mind that even WoW has pvp, it may not be it's focus, but it has it's place.
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
Generation P
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
What you described is a newb problem in darkfall. If you are in a clan, being red dont mean shit. Being red only stop you from going back to capital city, buying stuff from some of your aligned npc's, you cant do any quests and you cant bind on capital alignment stone. Thats about it. Once you leave the newb part, you join a clan and those problem are all gone. So you dont trust anyone that is not in your clan because even blue can kill you. Thats how DF hardcore pvp is. Like in real life, dont talk to strangers. Darkfall teach you that, but instead, they teach you to kill the strangers if you have the possibility or run away from them.
you know what i found funny with your post, you compar it with wow while in wow, you cant even kill your ally's. In DF you can. In wow, you cant team up with the enemy race. In Df you can. in wow, you can trust anyone. And you can tell who are the bad and who are with you since the bad one names are in yellow on top of their heads. The good one names are green.And lol, WOW pvp is like the new NHL 2010. An E-sport. Where is the next pvp gear season 5 is coming out? LOL
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
I loved the article but not every PvPer dislike balancing. I loved every skill balance update they did for Guild Wars. And it was very much PvP focused game. And I played that game with passionate PvP focus.
I agree that devs should figure out themselves why the game might be broken - they should not listen to the forum warriors as mentioned in this article. I welcome balance updates if the devs know what they are doing.
WAR's release showed how hard balancing is even to an experienced company. The balance in the first month was... horrible. It seemed like they hardly tested the game at all.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Lum The Mad is a "carebear columnist" and not a fan of Pvp?
ROFL
Other than completely missing the point of his article, it would appear that you are lookin' to defend Darkfall against an imagined threat. I think that's one of the reasons the Darkfall community gets the rep it has.
FYI...if you had played an MMO prior to 2002 odds are you'd know who Lum the Mad is, but do yourself a favor, go ahead and google him. Perhaps with some perspective you might re-read the article, and realize the point of view from which he is writing.
If Shadow Bane was launched right, polished, and run and supported correctly, we would still be playing the game this very day. It truely was the only PvP game since UO for us PvPers!
You had me up till this statement. Shadowbane failed cause there just was not enough PvE. all you PVP fanatics can say all you want but without PvE well, PvP games die out. PvE games done right live forever. Just admit it and maybe we get some some more decent mmo's that cover both rather then half ass shit.
What exactly makes Darkfall a hardcore game ?
i´ll take that as WoW is Britney Spears and Darkfall is Berzerker
You know that you go to red when you kill innocent people in darkfall for example,good good all good.
Example Xxxsuperhell666xxX Ork ,goes for some hunting,he finds friendly orks crafting,he slays them because he hates orks and he knows they cant win and then he turns to red.now one of the victims gets his equipment from bank and starts chasing Xxxsuperhell666xxX ,but when he finds him this Xxxsuperhell666xxX is friendly again,because he hired some target dummy from opposite side so you will be the murderer if you attack him.
So what makes Darkfall hardcore??it has good massive battles and you can attack opposite race people with hate and anger in your mind,but what makes it hardcore?
in darkfall you can be harcore babykiller without consequences,and thats pretty far from hardcore to me.
What you described is a newb problem in darkfall. If you are in a clan, being red dont mean shit. Being red only stop you from going back to capital city, buying stuff from some of your aligned npc's, you cant do any quests and you cant bind on capital alignment stone. Thats about it. Once you leave the newb part, you join a clan and those problem are all gone. So you dont trust anyone that is not in your clan because even blue can kill you. Thats how DF hardcore pvp is. Like in real life, dont talk to strangers. Darkfall teach you that, but instead, they teach you to kill the strangers if you have the possibility or run away from them.
you know what i found funny with your post, you compar it with wow while in wow, you cant even kill your ally's. In DF you can. In wow, you cant team up with the enemy race. In Df you can. in wow, you can trust anyone. And you can tell who are the bad and who are with you since the bad one names are in yellow on top of their heads. The good one names are green.And lol, WOW pvp is like the new NHL 2010. An E-sport. Where is the next pvp gear season 5 is coming out? LOL
so if i join to a clan which is full of these so called "newbs" then magically they are hardcore ?
and in this pvp game me thinks (someone correct if im wrong) when someone is red to me ,means that i can attack him without losing alignment or getting attacked by towers,dunno why you didnt mention those.which is big part of PvP from the beginning.
Generation P
What game is in screenshot in page1??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum!! ~Planescape: Torment~
You're just angry b/c he showed how pvp can completely ruin a game. Go back to your hole...
So basically I got Pvp devs should also focus on other areas of a game, Pvp balancing is hard.
Awesome.
Can I get those 5 minutes of my life back?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum