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How could you swing and miss on the principles of the ST IP
Rondo
Member UncommonPosts: 30
I have been shaking my head silently about how Cryptic has approached this project. How the hell could they mess this IP up. Hmm, by not having a few key features that any real STO fan would want and expect.
All they had to do was start coding this game with a few pillars of gameplay
1) Ships with Player crews
a) each player could have chosen to be a Engineer, Science officicer, medical officer, security officer, and instead of havinga "captain" per se, and this is one non IP addition--just allow the players to figure out who wants the mantle on and given time-frame. However, whoever was Captain would be required to make "cruicial decisions" throughout multiple choice PvE story arcs/quests, so the mantle would be important.
b) Factional warfare with these factions: Federation, Klingons, Romulans PSST Crytpic you could have ripped of DAOC's "three realm" idea and put the STO spin on it.
c) Have each ship have a crafting "bay", or engineering area--whatever--you want to call it. Have each class be able to craft down a line that made sense for their class. Make the system in-depth and integrate travel to systems and exploration of new systems/worlds for resources required by all the crafting trees. This would really make questing and exploration both a focus and integral part of the game as a means to an end for crafting "materials".
Also allow player crews to build their own craftingn stations out in deep space on planets where they would have to come back to in order to build larger modules or utilize equipment for certain crafting projects that could not be done on the ships smaller crafting/engineering bays. These waystaions could also be caches for player crews goods, ala caln banks etc for bulk resources etc.
d) Make on-the-surface combat between people FPSMMO--I mean cmon, who would want to see them FPS with a phaser while shooting hostile aliens, or battling a Klingon counter force over a resource area of a peaceful race of alien for some sort of exp etc.
These are just four pillars that I would have used as my foundation and made sure would have been in for launch...no matter what!
I'm not the biggest Trekkie as I would only use my time to actively follow the old crew, tv shows , movies etc; however, the entire series is solid sci-fi and I find a real shame that Cryptic seems to be butchering what I see as a no brainer for what could be a very solid MMO, maybe even an exceptional one.
Comments
Cryptic seems tro be one of those developers that takes a great ip and turns it into mush like Turbine does. From what I understand space will have zones ? How in the heck can you have zones in space but because it is Star Trek the fans will buy it to see if it is any good or not.
Ok good. then you write down exactly how to create a game with those four pillars and come back here. and not just like santas wishlist, but detailed, showing exactly how each and every pillar should work, abd still make it fun for each and every paying costumer. oh, and of course, humanly possible to program, without flaws or gaps in logic. ithink.. 50 pages on ach pillar woud give us a simple, basic picture of how you were thinking.
I really do not like how they have done this, it reminds me way too much of oversimplified games that Cryptic usually do "You know... for kids!"
But at least I have the brains to understand the problems with creating a superadvanced military simulator with 200-2000 ship crews against each other in a persistant world just because some clueless fanatics scream about it
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
If you think we are asking for 200-2000 person crews, you are the one who is clueless.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
"Hey man do you want to go join the giant battle in space?"
"Naw man I can't, I'm the only one from my crew online... I'll just sit here and wait for them to log on."
Sounds fun.
This is one of the few areas where it is actually pretty close to perfect imo... I can't say much about it, but I will pose a question...
How often on the shows do you see them travel from one solar system, or even one planet, to another at impulse power? They go to warp and you see the flying star-field, and then they are in the new place... impulse is for manoeuvering in a limited area.
going to warp and travelling feels pretty much like the IP to me.
They are taking one of the biggest potential IPs available for an MMORPG and doing it quick and cheap, when - if they had done it the right way - could have been HUGE. There is no way in hell they game they are going to release in February is going to be huge. No way.
It's like there is a contest among MMO devs to see who can screw up a major IP the worst.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
In the end it comes down to the fact that it's simply impossible to make a game that pleases everyone, and even more so when it's a game based on an IP like Star Trek.
I would be willing to bet that just amongst those of us here in this forum, that even where we disagree together with the same decisions on Cryptics part, we would probably disagree with each other on how they should have instead been implemented.
If I take the OP for example:
Do I think it would have been fun to have player crews? Yes I do, personally.
Would I have liked to have three factions? Yes I would (I really want to fly a D'deridex so I guess I'm rather biased on that one).
Do I want ground combat to be like an FPS? Most definitely not! That would probably put me off playing the game more than anything Cryptic has done so far.
There simply isn't an all-encompassing perfect Star Trek game. That's not to say I don't think this one couldn't have been made better, because I do, but it still always comes back to the same thing. What's better to me might be worse to someone else. In the end all we can hope is that the game will be fun to play, even if it's not our dream Star Trek game.
I can see some sort of player crews being interesting. With only players taking on the main roles that the main characters of the shows do. When real players or friends are not online to play one of the roles for you then you would have ncp controled people much like henchmen from Guild Wars.
This would allow for players to join the crew only if they want to play and explore together on the same ship. This sort of thing minght be able to please both camps, those that all want to control their own ship as captain, and those that want to be a part of a ship and play with friends.
This is just a very simplified thought of course.
No, that's not it at all.
You don't exclude features that most fans will want. I am certain that most Trek fans (as opposed to just anyone who has ever watched a few episodes or seen 'Wrath of Khan') absolutely want player crews. As an option.
You don't half-ass half of the factions in the game.
There some things you just don't do.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Where are you getting your statistics from?
Did I quote any statistics?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think that response is overly simplified, but it does drive at the main counter-point to why player crews wouldn't work well as the sole form of play.
However, the option for player crew might be interesting. Such as your group beams onto one of the ships, some folks can choose to be crew and the ship will perform at a higher level than can be attained solo. Also, for those who want to be part of the crew but don't want to be red shirt number 5, they can hop aboard smaller shuttle craft tailor made for fighting or support and can harrass the enemy ship under the protection of the main ship.
The other idea's the OP had, like the multiple factions, making engineering bays a place to craft, etc... I agree should have been included in the game.
This is one of the few areas where it is actually pretty close to perfect imo... I can't say much about it, but I will pose a question...
How often on the shows do you see them travel from one solar system, or even one planet, to another at impulse power? They go to warp and you see the flying star-field, and then they are in the new place... impulse is for manoeuvering in a limited area.
going to warp and travelling feels pretty much like the IP to me.
I Know what you are saying but space is an open world. You can't possibly put a spin on this to make it look good.
No, that's not it at all.
You don't exclude features that most fans will want. I am certain that most Trek fans (as opposed to just anyone who has ever watched a few episodes or seen 'Wrath of Khan') absolutely want player crews. As an option.
You don't half-ass half of the factions in the game.
There some things you just don't do.
I'm in complete agreement with you there. I wasn't trying to say that those were not important features, sorry if it came across as such.
On a somewhat related note, I hope you do decide to take Dana up on his offer. It would be very interesting to see you propose a system for player crews because I get the feeling I would enjoy your implementation.
Just let people do a little in-system travel in EvE to see how fast they want zoned travel. Talk about boring.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have it about 1/3 done now. One thing most posters have totally overlooked is the Holodeck as a source of solo content while on board. Not to mention crafting.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This is one of the few areas where it is actually pretty close to perfect imo... I can't say much about it, but I will pose a question...
How often on the shows do you see them travel from one solar system, or even one planet, to another at impulse power? They go to warp and you see the flying star-field, and then they are in the new place... impulse is for manoeuvering in a limited area.
going to warp and travelling feels pretty much like the IP to me.
I Know what you are saying but space is an open world. You can't possibly put a spin on this to make it look good.
I'm not sure how Eve's open "world" works since I have never played. However, it does seem silly that Cryptic wants to "zone" space.
Personally, since I think FPS action would be a detraction, I would have made hit points (renamed) but all "hits" are shown onscreen as misses until the one that kills you (though possibly have injuries that need to be treated...so perhaps "until the one that mostly disables you). Cover and other factors should be important too of course. No FPS, true to the IP, and they have to animate misses anyway. Job done and all it took was a little abstraction.
That is a very interesting idea, Drach. Done right, I think it would be palatable to most players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
to sum all of htis up... Crytpic studios. That's all the reason i need to say and anyone else needs to hear.
There are some basics they could have had. Meaningful non-combat interaction. I know some on the forums think all non-combat just results in "click on dialogue boxes until you get the right answer" but that's easily enough avoidable by not allowing people to "go back in time." Give people dialogue options that might result in loss or death, and then they have to deal with the consquences there. Make all generated planets recorded, and if you do something the locals like, then Starfleet might send you there again because the locals requests the famous Captain X and his crew to resolve the new problem.
I fully admit fleshing out non-combat would take time and a lot of work, but heck, it's supposedly their job to do things properly and it isn't like non-combat games and options are unheard of in video games. Yeah, it would take some work figuring out how to make random NPCs that have some semblance of believability and are a bit memorable, but that's what a Star Trek MMO really needs if you are exploring. Random appearance, generated personalities, etc. It wouldn't be THAT hard to have several thousand stock phrases (with some fill in the blanks) and then have a program that translates stock phrases into a particular vernacular (that flavors things with cultural and other stuff). Blizzard does an extremely basic version of this for players that drink, and that's just whimsy -- quite possible to do something more meaningful. With some time and work, you could probably even have some novel things randomly generated here. Yes, a lot of work, but doable and what a proper Star Trek MMO would demand.
I don't think anyone is complaining about the game not pleasing everyone. They are complaining about the game being shallow and rushed. Valid complaints about ANY game. That it also looks to be a crapfest as far as Star Trek IP goes just makes it worse.
Personally, since I think FPS action would be a detraction, I would have made hit points (renamed) but all "hits" are shown onscreen as misses until the one that kills you (though possibly have injuries that need to be treated...so perhaps "until the one that mostly disables you). Cover and other factors should be important too of course. No FPS, true to the IP, and they have to animate misses anyway. Job done and all it took was a little abstraction.
I would personally be happy with your suggestion too. Somehow people taking multiple phaser hits and continuing to fight as if nothing happened just isn't "right", and my recollection of people fighting with phasers on the shows is that they missed a whole lot more often than they hit.
Unfortunately though I think there would be a lot of people who simply wouldn't understand that this would in effect be the same system (ie X number of shots to kill someone) and we would get a flood of posts along the lines of "my character sucks/this game sucks because I can never hit anything" and those people would quit. Again, not something I would personally have a problem with, because they wouldn't be the sort of people I really want to associate with or play alongside anyway (that might be an oversimplification but I feel there is some truth to it), but from Cryptics point of view they would be losing subs.
I have it about 1/3 done now. One thing most posters have totally overlooked is the Holodeck as a source of solo content while on board. Not to mention crafting.
That would be mighty cool of you.
It kind of pisses me off every time I see someone talk about how everyone wants player crews, but is unwilling to even begin explaining how it might be fun or even keep a player occupied, let alone pay a subscription to participate in.
I actually designed and spent days writing a board game that does have player crews. You had gunners gunning, engineers repairing and modifying the ship, the captain would choose the general direction and objective, science officers scanning for enemy weaknesses and other astral hazards. I had all kinds of interesting mechanics in place for each role. I spent days putting together all the pieces of a demo.
Then I play tested it with some friends. It wasn't just a failure, it was dismally boring. The entire crew could have just as easily been played by one player. No cooperation was necessary, no 'working together' since the goal and how to achieve the goal was always obvious. It played more like a solo game with four phases instead of a coop game with players working together.
If you think that player crews are such a good idea, then try it for yourself. Make the rules and then go through the motions with some friends. You'll see. For one, its not 1/10th as cool as it sounds and it relies on so many contrived mechanics just to keep people busy that it loses everything that makes cooperation fun.
Well, they are going to be losing (or missing entirely) many subs due to their current design.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I agree on all your points beside the player crew thing as that would be extremely dificult to properly implement in an MMORPG and still be fun. For example, what if noone is online to man your science officer spot? Or medical officer? First officer?
Do you replace them with an NPC. If so, how do you make AI so good that it can replace a real person? Not possible with current AI tech.
What if more people want to be captain than a science officer? Would you force people who wants to play a captain to play science officer?
The list of problems goes on and on. It would be very hard to implement such a system imo.
As for zones. Space is virtually endless so how would one create something that models space? You have to have some kind of boundaries since obviously computer resources are not endless. Instancing however I think completely blows. Oh look, Earth #1 is being attacked by Borg but Earth #2 is fine. I mean multi dimensional universes did exist in Star Trek but you certainly could not freely switch between them (unless perhaps if you were a Q).
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