Because game design isn't about creating games people like, it's about satisfying the ultra-niche. Right? (So this is what it's like being a rebel against good game design. It feels odd. Sort of like my ideas aren't entirely thought out, but it doesn't matter because I'm a rebel. I'm allowed to be vague and criticize the system even though I have no clear solutions (and my unclear solutions are status quo in disguise.))
I'm a "rebel"? He he.
Think you missed the point entirely of the post I quoted, and you seem to have been quite offended in the process. Cute.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You're not going to find the type of gameplay you want in a big-name AAA MMO, for the simple reason that the millions of casual gamers those types of games require to make any money would never be able to figure it out and/or find it entertaining.
There are games that have the type of emergent gameplay you seem to be asking for - EvE and Darkfall come up a lot. They'll never be huge by modern standards but they make enough to make it worth their dev's time to continue to invest in them.
Basically? Because except for the graphics, games, especially MMORPGS, haven't evolved much from the "keep eating dots until they are all gone, and watch out for the ghosts" days and neither have a large percentage of the player base. I have a couple of ways to fix this one, wait ten years until computer technology advances far enough that game developers with true vision and talent can make some really sophisticated and entertaining games. OR figure out a way to make current game developers stop creating shyte games targeting the lowest common denominator. There is no real point in putting forth the effort of making a truly innovative game when the biggest part of your player base if deprived of their leveling treadmill of a game, would be just as happy to spend their entire day lighting ants on fire with a magnifying glass, eating their own feces, and/or masturbating.
Lol.
If this was my thread, I'd have my answer.
Because game design isn't about creating games people like, it's about satisfying the ultra-niche. Right?
(So this is what it's like being a rebel against good game design. It feels odd. Sort of like my ideas aren't entirely thought out, but it doesn't matter because I'm a rebel. I'm allowed to be vague and criticize the system even though I have no clear solutions (and my unclear solutions are status quo in disguise.))
Rebel against GOOD game design? Absolutely not. *Ultra-niche games are death for an MMO company and most of the niche games I've played are just as guilty of this behavior as the big boys. My complaint is about game companies using the same old schtick just to fill time instead of giving players something fun to do. The same crap leveling treadmill that worked for the last fifteen games is good enough for this one kind of thing. I've hacked and slashed my way through tons of inoffensive and damn near immobile animals in games since the early 80s, and in MMORPGS since the late 90s. You would think that by this time game companies could come up with something at least a bit more original than another round of whack-a-mole. Considering most of your posts on this site are on how MMORPGs can be improved, I'd figure you would be able to grasp this simple idea. I guess you were just too busy being offended by the idea that I feel moronic and sheep-like gamers are just as guilty for this state of events as the gaming companies themselves. That or maybe you really do enjoy burning ants, eating your own feces and/or masturbating.
* Side note: Since the only MMORPG that has been a runaway financial success is World of Warcraft, I pretty much consider all MMO games save that one as niche games. And frankly I'd be willing to bet that if Blizzard had just put all that time, money, thought and energy wasted on Wow into games such as Diablo 3 or new intellectual properties, they would have made a hell of a lot more money (and spent far less) than they did from Wow.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Like what has been already stated...the only games that will allow that kind of gameplay, that kind of emmersion, are sandbox games...
They are out there...hopefully the future will bring even more...
You wont find any mobs that will give you the intelligence that other people will...Games like DF and EVE and hopefully DAWNTIDE (whenever it comes out) make other players the biggest enemies and there is no way any mob will ever top that.
PLAYING: NOTHING!!! PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
Funny how your responses fit my own solution, I am a dreamer, a creator of worlds at the age of 16, onceI get in that dark world of demons called the MMO industry I am going to make it big because I am a rebel against this button mashing theme park quest driven oppression.
The only reason I have heard this hasn't been done is because games are to cater the majority and that's why investors feel safe, but I figured out two things:
All the retards are already on wow and wow clones playing endlessly, I doubt they will come out of it to play new wow clones. (Not saying all wow players are retards, only that all retards are in wow, gameplay wise)
I think the mature population that isn't playing an MMO and expecting a revolutionizing one to play is big enough to fund for a single MMO.
And I will admit I am a fan of the sandbox MMO and am oriented towards it, but even that is sorely shallow (Player's are given all the load to carry out RP).
A good game's objective is to have players unite to complete some sort of world objective Like i have read in Magic of the Gods story where the city where all the major trade was was under the leadership of a dwarf king which doesn't allow non dwarf races inside causing the players to unite against this injustice to non dwarves.
If there were a sandbox game where the player's managed their own cities and towns in order to fight this "living world" with "intelligent AI " attacks in which quests would directly be formed and created reflecting both the "living world' and "player society" such as a paper on the message board saying "kill this guy that has been Pking lvl 5 n00bs" and get a fat reward depending on how much trouble he has caused being posted by the victims or "This city is going to be under attack in Saturday at dawn (Between 7 AM PST and 9 AM PST) be sure to enlist and get reward and reputation for the city.
The point of mankind is that a game can be effectively player driven, the only problem with the game is the lack of GM "living world" events to fill out those huge gaps of no content, have the AI constantly screw with player's cities and trade routes, maybe some goblins are getting pretty aggressive and start killing a lot of poor players on the roads (Traveling AI searching to kill players in a determined zone) and then someone posts a quest to send a large party to kill these off so players may cross the roads safely again.
A non static player run world is the perfect RP experience in my opinion.
Face of ManKind (Feel free to skip this part if you want to start posting, but it is worth the read)
I recently started playing Face of Mankind and joined the FDC (Basically the "army"), it was hilarious.
I started in space which gave me a few choices of which location to port in to, I chose NYC.
I port in NYC and some female avatar started shooting at me...I was pretty scared and ran away ( Minor adrenaline rush ;p ) until I lost her, then I started talking in faction chat and someone told me to "report to" SS Yukon, I finally get there, he "gets me geared up" putting me in army uniform and I proceed to...this is the best part...I proceed to a class, where my teacher is a player, I am sitting in a chair with a bunch of other players, they keep copy pasting rules and later I answer a test and pass "class 101".
Then I proceed to scout Tokyo with my group, the leader of the group which is a sergeant is making us patrol and showing us proper combat formation to deal with mercenary scumbags.
Note (In the army, trainees and privates are not allowed to act on their own and must always consult a sergeant unless they want to receive a massive penalty and mistrust), if civilians start shooting each other, I can't shoot anyone because according to the army rules "I don't know who started it".
My first situation is where I am sitting on a bench staring at some pink haired civilian dancing (Using dance taunt all the time) so I get my objective completed, she is suddenly shot and a LOT of army and cop trainees surround her (me included), and everyone is like "wHat hAppEned, someone report this?", and the dancer claims she was shot and keeps badmouthing us threatening to hire mercenaries to get revenge on her killer.
I could also tell the tale of how about 80 of us went to a fortress to defend it from aliens but i don;t want to make this post too long, long story short, the game is completely player run, no NPCs at all besides the terminals which are basically machines for buying and storing items.
The point of mankind is that a game can be effectively player driven, the only problem with the game is the lack of GM "living world" events to fill out those huge gaps of no content, have the AI constantly screw with player's cities and trade routes, maybe some goblins are getting pretty aggressive and start killing a lot of poor players on the roads (Traveling AI searching to kill players in a determined zone) and then someone posts a quest to send a large party to kill these off so players may cross the roads safely again. A non static player run world is the perfect RP experience in my opinion.
Just wish GM really meant GM and not server support. It would really strengthen ( player/group/faction/entire server ) morale if they would just spawn random bosses in populated areas, single out player/group in front of everyone to make them pass some test of courage/strength/defense/etc , environment changes drastic ones, switch up mob locations, randomize on the fly, i'm ranting now. :P
Got to learn to kill something to gain courage to kill bigger creatures?
You know, I actually see your point, but I have to ask if anyone really needs to go kill two-hundred and fifty house cats before they are ready to take on a mountain lion. Also I have to ask the question after all this time, why is combat still the only way to advance levels in most mmorpgs?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Basically? Because except for the graphics, games, especially MMORPGS, haven't evolved much from the "keep eating dots until they are all gone, and watch out for the ghosts" days and neither have a large percentage of the player base. I have a couple of ways to fix this one, wait ten years until computer technology advances far enough that game developers with true vision and talent can make some really sophisticated and entertaining games. OR figure out a way to make current game developers stop creating shyte games targeting the lowest common denominator. There is no real point in putting forth the effort of making a truly innovative game when the biggest part of your player base if deprived of their leveling treadmill of a game, would be just as happy to spend their entire day lighting ants on fire with a magnifying glass, eating their own feces, and/or masturbating.
Lol.
If this was my thread, I'd have my answer.
Because game design isn't about creating games people like, it's about satisfying the ultra-niche. Right?
(So this is what it's like being a rebel against good game design. It feels odd. Sort of like my ideas aren't entirely thought out, but it doesn't matter because I'm a rebel. I'm allowed to be vague and criticize the system even though I have no clear solutions (and my unclear solutions are status quo in disguise.))
Rebel against GOOD game design? Absolutely not. *Ultra-niche games are death for an MMO company and most of the niche games I've played are just as guilty of this behavior as the big boys. My complaint is about game companies using the same old schtick just to fill time instead of giving players something fun to do. The same crap leveling treadmill that worked for the last fifteen games is good enough for this one kind of thing. I've hacked and slashed my way through tons of inoffensive and damn near immobile animals in games since the early 80s, and in MMORPGS since the late 90s. You would think that by this time game companies could come up with something at least a bit more original than another round of whack-a-mole. Considering most of your posts on this site are on how MMORPGs can be improved, I'd figure you would be able to grasp this simple idea. I guess you were just too busy being offended by the idea that I feel moronic and sheep-like gamers are just as guilty of this state of events as the gaming companies themselves. That or maybe you really do enjoy burning ants, eating your own feces and/or masturbating.
* Side note: Since the only MMORPG that has been a runaway financial success is World of Warcraft, I pretty much consider all MMO games save that one as niche games. And frankly I'd be willing to bet that if Blizzard had just put all that time, money, thought and energy wasted on Wow into games such as Diablo 3 or new intellectual properties, they would have made a hell of a lot more money (and spent far less) than they did from Wow.
The yellow-highlighted part in your first post is where you're a rebel against good game design. Because you insinuate games shouldn't be made so that the lowest common denominator have fun.
I'm not offended in the slightest, was just poking a little fun at your post is all. People capable of being offended don't belong on the internet
I think innovation has its place in MMORPGs, but this particular thread didn't really present a strong argument for what's bad about the current games. For starters, I don't even remember the last MMORPG where I killed a rat. It was a long time ago. And the thread's more general theme just lacks merit: I don't see most MMORPGs having players fight uninteresting monsters (at least not with a frequency where a thread is necessary to complain about it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We are tasked with killing rats because the formulaic PvE MMO is centered on character development. By starting off with some insignificant creature to kill, developers can drag out the levelling process and theoretically milk subscriptions longer...
As mentioned, developers could just add 'smart' mobs and NPC's but I honestly think that the average PvE'er wants an easy and predictable experience.
Players were very poor, I think there was perma death (But the gods FYI GM would probably have compassion), plus they planned to make player made items very valuable compared to the games resources which would encourage crafting as a very profitable activity.
Combat was discouraged because mobs wouldn't drop money and were very dangerous, the best way to make money in the game when it started was fishing and even then you had to get a spear and learn how to fish from an NPC in some island.
In the game there were like 3 merchants, two of them were NPCs and the third was an actual player which had a house somewhere.
The game didn't have proper housing where you could easily get a house, but rather there was a wandering NPC dwarf that ahd his own crew of workers which would make a house for you if you could find him (Don't know if you had to pay him though).
And a lot of other things, there were armies, players really mattered (I'd rather be a hero for being the only merchant or fisherman than for doing static quests and killing huge mobs which EVERYONE HAS KILLED), those are fake heroes, there weren't any thieves or assassins but there could have been if someone tried to, I loled at the evil Overlord.
This game really encouraged RP, unlike wow. I really hope this game gets off the ground again.
Comments
I'm a "rebel"? He he.
Think you missed the point entirely of the post I quoted, and you seem to have been quite offended in the process. Cute.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You're not going to find the type of gameplay you want in a big-name AAA MMO, for the simple reason that the millions of casual gamers those types of games require to make any money would never be able to figure it out and/or find it entertaining.
There are games that have the type of emergent gameplay you seem to be asking for - EvE and Darkfall come up a lot. They'll never be huge by modern standards but they make enough to make it worth their dev's time to continue to invest in them.
Lol.
If this was my thread, I'd have my answer.
Because game design isn't about creating games people like, it's about satisfying the ultra-niche. Right?
(So this is what it's like being a rebel against good game design. It feels odd. Sort of like my ideas aren't entirely thought out, but it doesn't matter because I'm a rebel. I'm allowed to be vague and criticize the system even though I have no clear solutions (and my unclear solutions are status quo in disguise.))
Rebel against GOOD game design? Absolutely not. *Ultra-niche games are death for an MMO company and most of the niche games I've played are just as guilty of this behavior as the big boys. My complaint is about game companies using the same old schtick just to fill time instead of giving players something fun to do. The same crap leveling treadmill that worked for the last fifteen games is good enough for this one kind of thing. I've hacked and slashed my way through tons of inoffensive and damn near immobile animals in games since the early 80s, and in MMORPGS since the late 90s. You would think that by this time game companies could come up with something at least a bit more original than another round of whack-a-mole. Considering most of your posts on this site are on how MMORPGs can be improved, I'd figure you would be able to grasp this simple idea. I guess you were just too busy being offended by the idea that I feel moronic and sheep-like gamers are just as guilty for this state of events as the gaming companies themselves. That or maybe you really do enjoy burning ants, eating your own feces and/or masturbating.
* Side note: Since the only MMORPG that has been a runaway financial success is World of Warcraft, I pretty much consider all MMO games save that one as niche games. And frankly I'd be willing to bet that if Blizzard had just put all that time, money, thought and energy wasted on Wow into games such as Diablo 3 or new intellectual properties, they would have made a hell of a lot more money (and spent far less) than they did from Wow.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Like what has been already stated...the only games that will allow that kind of gameplay, that kind of emmersion, are sandbox games...
They are out there...hopefully the future will bring even more...
You wont find any mobs that will give you the intelligence that other people will...Games like DF and EVE and hopefully DAWNTIDE (whenever it comes out) make other players the biggest enemies and there is no way any mob will ever top that.
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
Funny how your responses fit my own solution, I am a dreamer, a creator of worlds at the age of 16, onceI get in that dark world of demons called the MMO industry I am going to make it big because I am a rebel against this button mashing theme park quest driven oppression.
The only reason I have heard this hasn't been done is because games are to cater the majority and that's why investors feel safe, but I figured out two things:
And I will admit I am a fan of the sandbox MMO and am oriented towards it, but even that is sorely shallow (Player's are given all the load to carry out RP).
A good game's objective is to have players unite to complete some sort of world objective Like i have read in Magic of the Gods story where the city where all the major trade was was under the leadership of a dwarf king which doesn't allow non dwarf races inside causing the players to unite against this injustice to non dwarves.
If there were a sandbox game where the player's managed their own cities and towns in order to fight this "living world" with "intelligent AI " attacks in which quests would directly be formed and created reflecting both the "living world' and "player society" such as a paper on the message board saying "kill this guy that has been Pking lvl 5 n00bs" and get a fat reward depending on how much trouble he has caused being posted by the victims or "This city is going to be under attack in Saturday at dawn (Between 7 AM PST and 9 AM PST) be sure to enlist and get reward and reputation for the city.
The point of mankind is that a game can be effectively player driven, the only problem with the game is the lack of GM "living world" events to fill out those huge gaps of no content, have the AI constantly screw with player's cities and trade routes, maybe some goblins are getting pretty aggressive and start killing a lot of poor players on the roads (Traveling AI searching to kill players in a determined zone) and then someone posts a quest to send a large party to kill these off so players may cross the roads safely again.
A non static player run world is the perfect RP experience in my opinion.
____________________________________________________________________________
Face of ManKind (Feel free to skip this part if you want to start posting, but it is worth the read)
I recently started playing Face of Mankind and joined the FDC (Basically the "army"), it was hilarious.
I started in space which gave me a few choices of which location to port in to, I chose NYC.
I port in NYC and some female avatar started shooting at me...I was pretty scared and ran away ( Minor adrenaline rush ;p ) until I lost her, then I started talking in faction chat and someone told me to "report to" SS Yukon, I finally get there, he "gets me geared up" putting me in army uniform and I proceed to...this is the best part...I proceed to a class, where my teacher is a player, I am sitting in a chair with a bunch of other players, they keep copy pasting rules and later I answer a test and pass "class 101".
Then I proceed to scout Tokyo with my group, the leader of the group which is a sergeant is making us patrol and showing us proper combat formation to deal with mercenary scumbags.
Note (In the army, trainees and privates are not allowed to act on their own and must always consult a sergeant unless they want to receive a massive penalty and mistrust), if civilians start shooting each other, I can't shoot anyone because according to the army rules "I don't know who started it".
My first situation is where I am sitting on a bench staring at some pink haired civilian dancing (Using dance taunt all the time) so I get my objective completed, she is suddenly shot and a LOT of army and cop trainees surround her (me included), and everyone is like "wHat hAppEned, someone report this?", and the dancer claims she was shot and keeps badmouthing us threatening to hire mercenaries to get revenge on her killer.
I could also tell the tale of how about 80 of us went to a fortress to defend it from aliens but i don;t want to make this post too long, long story short, the game is completely player run, no NPCs at all besides the terminals which are basically machines for buying and storing items.
____________________________________________________________________________
Got to learn to kill something to gain courage to kill bigger creatures?
Just wish GM really meant GM and not server support. It would really strengthen ( player/group/faction/entire server ) morale if they would just spawn random bosses in populated areas, single out player/group in front of everyone to make them pass some test of courage/strength/defense/etc , environment changes drastic ones, switch up mob locations, randomize on the fly, i'm ranting now. :P
You know, I actually see your point, but I have to ask if anyone really needs to go kill two-hundred and fifty house cats before they are ready to take on a mountain lion. Also I have to ask the question after all this time, why is combat still the only way to advance levels in most mmorpgs?
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Lol.
If this was my thread, I'd have my answer.
Because game design isn't about creating games people like, it's about satisfying the ultra-niche. Right?
(So this is what it's like being a rebel against good game design. It feels odd. Sort of like my ideas aren't entirely thought out, but it doesn't matter because I'm a rebel. I'm allowed to be vague and criticize the system even though I have no clear solutions (and my unclear solutions are status quo in disguise.))
Rebel against GOOD game design? Absolutely not. *Ultra-niche games are death for an MMO company and most of the niche games I've played are just as guilty of this behavior as the big boys. My complaint is about game companies using the same old schtick just to fill time instead of giving players something fun to do. The same crap leveling treadmill that worked for the last fifteen games is good enough for this one kind of thing. I've hacked and slashed my way through tons of inoffensive and damn near immobile animals in games since the early 80s, and in MMORPGS since the late 90s. You would think that by this time game companies could come up with something at least a bit more original than another round of whack-a-mole. Considering most of your posts on this site are on how MMORPGs can be improved, I'd figure you would be able to grasp this simple idea. I guess you were just too busy being offended by the idea that I feel moronic and sheep-like gamers are just as guilty of this state of events as the gaming companies themselves. That or maybe you really do enjoy burning ants, eating your own feces and/or masturbating.
* Side note: Since the only MMORPG that has been a runaway financial success is World of Warcraft, I pretty much consider all MMO games save that one as niche games. And frankly I'd be willing to bet that if Blizzard had just put all that time, money, thought and energy wasted on Wow into games such as Diablo 3 or new intellectual properties, they would have made a hell of a lot more money (and spent far less) than they did from Wow.
The yellow-highlighted part in your first post is where you're a rebel against good game design. Because you insinuate games shouldn't be made so that the lowest common denominator have fun.
I'm not offended in the slightest, was just poking a little fun at your post is all. People capable of being offended don't belong on the internet
I think innovation has its place in MMORPGs, but this particular thread didn't really present a strong argument for what's bad about the current games. For starters, I don't even remember the last MMORPG where I killed a rat. It was a long time ago. And the thread's more general theme just lacks merit: I don't see most MMORPGs having players fight uninteresting monsters (at least not with a frequency where a thread is necessary to complain about it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We are tasked with killing rats because the formulaic PvE MMO is centered on character development. By starting off with some insignificant creature to kill, developers can drag out the levelling process and theoretically milk subscriptions longer...
As mentioned, developers could just add 'smart' mobs and NPC's but I honestly think that the average PvE'er wants an easy and predictable experience.
So... As was also mentioned, play a sandbox.
I looked more into magic of the gods and I found something VERY interesting, just reading the page MAKES ME NEED TO PLAY THE GAME:
I want to play it
Some interesting stuff that was going on:
Players were very poor, I think there was perma death (But the gods FYI GM would probably have compassion), plus they planned to make player made items very valuable compared to the games resources which would encourage crafting as a very profitable activity.
Combat was discouraged because mobs wouldn't drop money and were very dangerous, the best way to make money in the game when it started was fishing and even then you had to get a spear and learn how to fish from an NPC in some island.
In the game there were like 3 merchants, two of them were NPCs and the third was an actual player which had a house somewhere.
The game didn't have proper housing where you could easily get a house, but rather there was a wandering NPC dwarf that ahd his own crew of workers which would make a house for you if you could find him (Don't know if you had to pay him though).
And a lot of other things, there were armies, players really mattered (I'd rather be a hero for being the only merchant or fisherman than for doing static quests and killing huge mobs which EVERYONE HAS KILLED), those are fake heroes, there weren't any thieves or assassins but there could have been if someone tried to, I loled at the evil Overlord.
This game really encouraged RP, unlike wow. I really hope this game gets off the ground again.
Give this page a read people XD.