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Game looks both impressive and disappointing
rolandhadley
Member Posts: 22
The more I read about this game the more I am both impressed and completely frustrated by what I hear at the same time.
First, the impressive parts. The production values look fantastic. The look of the world, the look of characters, the look of combat; all seem incredible - a thousand times better than SWG. I have no doubts that combat will be great to watch and will probably be fun too. The detailed story will probably be excellent too, allowing quests that pull you into the Star Wars mythos and go way beyond kill x or fedex. It's also cool how your quest decisions will impact your character development in a real way.
At the same time, it looks to me like it will ultimately be a fairly ordinary game that doesn't vary from the WoW formula in its fundamental aspects. Here are what I see as the dullest aspects of the game:
--No sense of a wideopen sandbox world. In changing it up from SWG, they look to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The best part of SWG was that you could go anywhere. Like old games like the old AC, high level creatures wouldn't be far from weak ones, giving a sense of danger and unpredictability. From what I've read, SWTOR will use the old level-based zones. "You are now in the level 22-24 zone. You are now in the 25-27 zone. You are now in the level 28-30 zone." Yawn. Level based zones are the single worst influence of WoW, in both removing a sense of danger and unpredictability and actually making the world seem smaller than it is.
--No sense of a wideopen sandbox in character creation/skill development. I get a sense that character types are not going to allow a huge range of possibilities. Granted, each class will have two sub-classes based on game decisions, but other than that the archtypes will probably be quite similar. It looks to be based on choosing powers rather than a skill-based system.
--Crafting has been de-emphasized in everything I've read, leading one to believe that there will be a simplistic system.
In short, many of the design elements look they are heading towards a restricted type of play, restricted in terms of who can go where when, restricted in terms of character design choices, restricted in terms of crafting, etc.
If you don't believe me, consider the PC Gamer editorial which hints at this, or the mmorpg.com predictions for 2010 that some people will be upset with the lack of sandbox features in the game.
My complaint is this: Why can't a good game have both? Why can't a game have a great Star Wars theme, great production values and combat, great story elements, AND have the sandbox/freeform elements that a lot of adult gamers really enjoy? And there's NO reason why a game like this shouldn't have an intricate trade skill/crafting system - those who aren't interested in that stuff and just want to swing a lightsaber don't have to use it - putting that in won't negatively affect their experience at all. Why does it have to be either/or? Some games might not have the money for everything, but lord knows this is one game that has the budget to do everything well. It's disappointing that a game that has a lot of smart people and a lot of money behind it looks like they might be going lowest common denominator in many respects.
Comments
Most of your complaints are about sandbox elements, SWTOR is not a sandbox game, I'm sure you understand that. And I understand the appeal of an open world. I'm an adult gamer but I don't like large empty spaces of nothingness. I would prefer to have a rather linear lush area to travel through. I don't want to be cliche and say "to early to judge", but I feel it's necessary. Everybody that has played the game has only played the first 8 levels of the game. SWG was open but was also surrounded by mountains to keep you contained. All ToR is doing is taking those large areas and filling it with their vision. SWG didn't offer much to explore unless you like driving through abandoned cities and visiting mundane locations. Of coarse this is opinion.
Crafting has not been explained and I don't expect it to be revolutionary or something of primary interest like in SWG. My only reason for believing this is based off the crafting in KOTOR, but things change, mostly because this is a MMO. I don't think BioWare is going to half ass this game. I believe ToR will be nowhere near as open as SWG was, but I believe it will have far more interesting and immersive worlds then SWG could ever dream of creating.
I completely agree with you that much of SWG's open world was fairly empty. Given the size of the design team in SWTOR, there should be no reason for an empty world. As I emphasized in my original post, I believe that the source of a dull world in games like WoW isn't the lack of an innovative design team, it's level-based zoning which necessarily keeps areas small and removes any sense of danger. I'd love to see combat system that doesn't make level the key determinant, but I'm not holding my breath.
As for crafting, no one thinks the crafting system should be the dominant part of SWTOR. There's just no reason not to have an interesting system in place, given the budget for this game.
I have a fairly different opinion as to why WoWs zones were boring and it has nothing to do with appearance or size as I felt they were decent. My problem was what was they for? Questing, yes, but killing 10 turtles in a pond had me dreading the world. Blizzard is already proving players want OUT of their world. No more walking to dungeons, no more seeking groups, fast travel everywhere.
I get the idea BioWares storytelling which has never failed me personally merged with an MMO of quests that feel important will change my view on the world around me. I will be able to enjoy it, because I'm finally enjoying the game and not wanting to rush to the end where everybody tells me "is when it gets better".
There's few people out there who don't get bored with 10/fedex quests. I don't think these quests are terrible in and of themselves; they're only bad when you're penalized for not doing them or there's nothing else interesting to do. You want to see more interesting story/quests to do instead of the mindless quests, while I'm talking about open world exploring.
Clearly, neither of us are in a rush to the endgame. My larger point is: why not have both? Why can't you have a great story AND open world exploring? I'm old enough to have played Betrayal at Krondor extensively, and that game had an extraordinary story, while at the same time allowing you to fully explore the world if you liked. My point is SWTOR should have the brains and the resources behind it to succeed at both levels.
Have you seen the video on Coruscant? Some would claim it's huge (as described) and that Bioware understands people like to explore. However, a city-planet is not large enough to explore, because you can't go into every single building. Therefore, I completely agree with you.
Or maybe I'm being sarcastic!
Yes, this game will be similar to WoW, but the story won't be it's only selling point. It only seems that way now because that's all Bioware has talked about. I have no doubt there will be content to satisfy other gamers' styles (explorer, socializer, killer, along with achiever). The quality or degree of that content is still debatable, of course, but right now, it's all just speculation anyways.
This game isn't trying to be a sandbox, and if it were, it'd be doing a pretty bad job.
I don't disagree with what your saying. But my answer was it's to early to judge on how open the world will be. I'm not challenging your "why not" question at all. I'm giving my reasons on why I found WoWs world to be completely boring. I don't think what you're asking for is to far off to be honest. It could be the next best thing. Waiting for a wealthy and smart company to do it is all that's missing. I'm not saying money is a what matters, but it does play a role in the time they can invest effort into the MMOs creation.
It's not about making a great game for it's own sake, it's about target market. SWTOR is after the people that want a sequel to KOTOR (hence the mostly single-player story-based stuff) and the people who play WoW but would prefer to have lightsabers when they do it (hence everything else in TOR). There is no money in making sandbox content for the 3 of us that actually loved SWG.
And as far as "what's the harm in both" question, it's pretty simple, the more resources you spend developing secondary content for the minority, the less resources you spend on your primary content for the majority. And of course both camps of players are unhappy, because their content isn't getting enough attention.
We really need to stop thinking of developers are artists who are trying to create an amazing world for us and realize that it's a business, choosing what sells best to their partiicular customers.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
"...hence everything else in TOR)."
What is this exactly, this "everything else in TOR?" We really have next to no information aside from the fact that each class has its own story, it's fully voice acted and that there will be multiple worlds to explore.
"We really need to stop thinking of developers are artists who are trying to create an amazing world for us and realize that it's a business, choosing what sells best to their partiicular customers."
I would argue the exact opposite. If we didnt have incredible artists working day and night to create an immersive world for players to enjoy then no one would feel inclined to continue paying 15 bones a month to play.
Just because you don't agree with the direction a game is going, does not mean that the artistic merit behind the work is rendered void.
It would be good if they could paint lines on the floor so we don't bump into invisible walls innecessarily. Lines pointing to quests and shops and so.
Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
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Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
Everquest was one of the 'early' games, and it is still around now oddly enough, so i'd hardly call it a 'fail' personally, i would be impressed if TOR did as well as Everquest did, i dont really expect it personally, as it looks like its going to be very much a 'niche' game, but i've been wrong before.. so who knows..
Impressive from the amount of work that has gone into the game already but the graphics aren;t doing it for me. I know graphics aren't everything but there is just something about it that just doesn't look right to me at times.
This is logical,i can truly understand why people may like a linear game,i am also older but i prefer an open ended game.
I think your argument was sort of based from many of the poorly designed games,that does not mean an open world cannot achieve what a linear world does and even more.I know FE is one of those large land masses that are completely empty,i agree ,i don't like that either,but a good developer could easily fix that.
The MAJOR flaw of a linear game is it has no replay value and like all linear games VERY little game play.The average linear game has around 40 hours of game play,they are not going to make very much money from the game if it only has 40 hours game play.
This is the design i am actually seeing in most games.They put together a REAL cheap product and just create longevity through long drawn out leveling by doing very boring quests.After those useless boring quests are done they have PVP,because to be frank there is NO content,so they figure on keeping you there to PVP.
If a game forgets that weak type of design and creates a living breathing world,with active non static NPC's the game would have longevity,without worrying about levels or end game PVP,that design needs to go in a big way.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Borderlands.. i just dont get it.. certain graphic styles just dont make sense to me either.. but for me the jury is still out on that part of SW-TOR tbh..
You misunderstood me and it's probably my own fault. There are most certainly tons and tons of talented artists working on these games. Just like there are talented artists creating Coke ads and malibu Barbies and the godawful Transformers movies.
I meant artists in a more macro sense, an artist creates a work of art in order to create a work of art, in order to communicate something, create something. These people are creating a commercial product for the purpose of attracting the "ex-wow male in 18-30 year-old demographic". The purpose of the art created is to cater to the product being sold. I did not mean in any way to belittle what is done or created.
What I meant is that it is a mistake to assume that the goal behind the creation of these games is to "create the best star wars world imaginable" or anything remotely related. The goal is to create the experience that the target demographic will pay for. If it means multi-pathing storyline quests, that's what it is, but the second that polls show that those aren't popular, they're going out the window - best game or not. There are tons of examples. Look at SWG (sw world), EQ2 (fully voiced NPCs) or many, many other examples.
The MMO genre is really young still, already there are popping up "niche" games that are being done for more artistic reasons. But at the moment, the technology cost is too prohibitive. But soon, hopefully, the same thing will happen that has happened in other media, where the blockbusters are still being made for mass consumption, but more intricate and interesting MMOs are being made for "the right reasons". But chances are, the big IPs will always go to the blockbusters.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
EverQuest didn't work well? Then why did WoW get famous rereleasing a simple version of it?
Anyway, yes, this game looks like a great single player game, but and kind of fails to be an MMO.
You guys seem to forget or maybe don't know, SWG was not a level based game in the beginning and every creature in that game presented a true danger to you (some more than others).
I don't think this game will be anywhere near what SWG was in relation to social, and immersion factor because of it hosting levels and not master boxes/skill sets (as of yet). To me, I think if you go back to Korriban after decking your Sith or Jedi/Agent or Smuggler out (whatever class you have) .
I thought about this, after reading some posts in regards to people being disappointed that TOR would be more of a level by level game, than a non level master box dynamic (like pre CU SWG). With a level based system, what many have been debating about in regards to raiding and feeling or being heroic comes with over leveling the mobs (like in 99.9% of the MMO genre today). Gear is the most important part of the MMO and most are forced into the cookie cutter gear/spec that is proven by those who run parsers in every instance/PvP scenario.
I'm not saying this is a negative thing but, it does not present an opportunity for the developers to make every confrontation in the game one where there is always a challenge. Example: Say you start on Korriban as a Sith Warrior and you run into those crypt worms or some Republic trooper NPCs, there is a clear and present danger of "if I don't kill these guys, they will kill me!". Now say you come back ten levels later to help someone who wants to play the apprentice to you (since you are higher level now) at 10 levels you go in and one hit kill everything in swarms (no danger there).
This even plays into that when you are gearing up a twink alt for PvP (over level mobs an then one hit kill everything). With the master box or skill pick dynamic (even seen in Kotor) there was always a present danger when fighting mobs (was no level) and every encounter was one where you did not know the outcome (chance of dying was 50/50). Yes there was always a upgrade to your gear and weapons (through crafting or quest/trade) but still showed a true progression that people desire or need in a MMO.
For me this is the disappointment and let down right here, more than likely once gone from an area or "noob" planet (if there is such a thing) no one will ever go back to the area. The areas in SWG was there for people who wanted to venture and "EXPLORE" not just an empty space as some of you put it.
SWG devs in the beginning had the right idea of not having levels within the game (this excludes people from playing together).
@above post
Well....you're mostly right about SWG and level-less games. There is a pretty big BUT though that you may not have experienced or have just forgotten. And that is doc buffs.
Doc buffs majorly influenced every aspect of the day-to-day of SWG. So did gear. Like let's say you had a full set of the BH armor and a DH-10 pistol and you're a bh/smugg or bh/pistoleer or bh/anything and you're fully buffed (all pre-cu). Ok not let's say you go find some non-mission spawned npc's....let's say some storm troopers at an outpost.
Well, since you're fully buffed and in (argueably) the best gear you can get your hands on you're going to be able to just faceroll your way through everything there.
Or let's take another build I used. A full set of good composite armor, a kray two-hander (power hammer, sword, w/e really) and a master swordsmen/combat medic build. Go out, get doc buffs then go to tatooine. Ride to the krayt grounds, find krayt (50x my size) and proceed to solo all but the ancient krayts and get lots and lots of valuable stuff with very little danger. A jedi at even JK level with good gear could solo even the ancient krayts.....hell Jedi could solo pretty much anything they wanted to. A TK or heavy swordsman with CM combo could solo a lot of stuff too. It's how I farmed the DW bunker for my other stuff.
SWG was cool and all.....but it's really hard to say that all mobs always presented a challenge. >.>
If they put anything like Doc buffs and 95% resists armors in this game, they have failed already. I agree with you on Doc buffs and armors causing massive influx of imbalance issues between classes (read some of my threads on SWG buffs, I was against them big time).
I remeber going with a group to Tusken fort on Tattooine (Tuskens should always be dangerous) with a Doc, SL, TKM, CM, Dancer, CH (with Rancor tank) BH, etc and had nothing on but bone armor (those were the days). The doc and CM kept the CH up and everyone else focused tuskens left and right with the SL equalizing wounds and boastering damage/defense. this is how the game should be.
I think anytime you fight a mob rather it be going back to a intro area or end game it should almost present the same danger.
On a note, it has always bothered me when I see a big grizzly bear in a game that is level 5 not attacking me at all (them damn things are not docile or peaceful), it should always be dangerous (just like in the real world).
This is logical,i can truly understand why people may like a linear game,i am also older but i prefer an open ended game.
I think your argument was sort of based from many of the poorly designed games,that does not mean an open world cannot achieve what a linear world does and even more.I know FE is one of those large land masses that are completely empty,i agree ,i don't like that either,but a good developer could easily fix that.
The MAJOR flaw of a linear game is it has no replay value and like all linear games VERY little game play.The average linear game has around 40 hours of game play,they are not going to make very much money from the game if it only has 40 hours game play.
This is the design i am actually seeing in most games.They put together a REAL cheap product and just create longevity through long drawn out leveling by doing very boring quests.After those useless boring quests are done they have PVP,because to be frank there is NO content,so they figure on keeping you there to PVP.
If a game forgets that weak type of design and creates a living breathing world,with active non static NPC's the game would have longevity,without worrying about levels or end game PVP,that design needs to go in a big way.
I agree with you about FE but for some reason I couldn't get into it, my bet is on the combat system pushing me away.
A major flaw of linear games is replay value as you said. If BioWare can deliver what they promise, I think that may change. Although I expect every class to tie into every other classes story line I'm still very interested in every classes story. I did the same thing with dragon age, all six classes completed with every achievement unlocked.
Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
EverQuest didn't work well? Then why did WoW get famous rereleasing a simple version of it?
Anyway, yes, this game looks like a great single player game, but and kind of fails to be an MMO.
WoW is popular due to polish and ease. It's a quality product, at WoWs release, quality was innovative like it or not.
It fails to be a MMO why? I'm just curious in what exactly you know that sets it apart from other modern MMOs.
Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
EverQuest didn't work well? Then why did WoW get famous rereleasing a simple version of it?
Anyway, yes, this game looks like a great single player game, but and kind of fails to be an MMO.
WoW is popular due to polish and ease. It's a quality product, at WoWs release, quality was innovative like it or not.
It fails to be a MMO why? I'm just curious in what exactly you know that sets it apart from other modern MMOs.
If it didn't work well in EQ that doesn't mean it won't work in TOR. Lines could blink if you are in a higher level area, as a warning.
Everquest tried that and it didn't work out so well, just like the rest of the game.
EverQuest didn't work well? Then why did WoW get famous rereleasing a simple version of it?
Anyway, yes, this game looks like a great single player game, but and kind of fails to be an MMO.
WoW is popular due to polish and ease. It's a quality product, at WoWs release, quality was innovative like it or not.
It fails to be a MMO why? I'm just curious in what exactly you know that sets it apart from other modern MMOs.
If it didn't work well in EQ that doesn't mean it won't work in TOR. Lines could blink if you are in a higher level area, as a warning.
I was making an observation as a whole. WoWs only success is from being a polished experience, that's it. It does nothing new, nothing exciting, it's easy and plays very fluently.
I want to be clear that I am NOT arguing that SWTOR should be just like SWG - as numerous people have pointed out, there were a ton of big flaws in SWG ranging from class imbalances to a lack of story content, etc.
However, if SWTOR forces players through a linear story and doesn't allow players wide open exploration, it won't be a game that I'll be playing.
The devs have stated many times there are open areas and instance areas l2read the only thing i think they need to scrap is the companions