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Empire Space, not as Carebear as people think?
Kyleran
Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
I didn't want to derail another thread, but this reply was made by Agricola and it brought up something that came to my attention in the past month since the most recent expasion and I wanted to see if others had noticed it.
Originally posted by comerb
Empire space is no less FFA than a town with a tower. I prefer Darkfall to Eve for PvP because of the pace of gameplay and twitch factor , but what you listed has nothing to do with it.
Agricola's Respnose
I Think we both know that isn't quite true. In EvE safe zones you hit someone once without a war dec = you die, also CCP nerfed the war dec system some years ago preventing multiple war decs (over 3) at the sametime. In EvE the safe zone really is that and 99% of the playerbase live there with the other 4900+ zones being almost deviod of life. Now that CCP are in the practice of even revoking wardecs when carebears cry to them it's just become a total joke in my opinion.
In the most recent expansion CCP made long overdue improvements to the alpha strike capability of projectile guns. This has resulted in a perhaps unintended consequence, it makes killing ships in Empire space much easier and with very little cost to the attackers.
Players can now use a gang of Tempest battleships (which can easily be insured for almost their full value including the ship modules) and easily take down fully loaded Hulks (miner), Freighters, and even faction fitted Mauraders like the Golem.
These ships previously had moved around in Empire space with out being molested (though Goonswarm did kick off a campaign before the expansion to harass miners in high sec and suicide gank Hulks) and one of my corpmates recently began posting kill mails from Battleclinic and I was astounded to see how many of these PVE ships have been destroyed recently.
One kill mail last night had a person with -10 security (who I didn't think could survive in high sec) do the finishing blow on a Hulk (using a Tempest) in 0.5 space. I never would have suspected that was even possible before seeing it posted.
Its not just in 0.5 space either, he posted a link to the EVE forums that listed mulitple Maurader kills, many of them in .8 to 1.0 sectors, and even came with instructions showing how 6 cheaply fitted Tempests can kill a Golem before Concord kills them.
This is important because some Mauraders are faciton fitted with 2-3 Billion ISK worth of modules and its worth expending perhaps 100M ISK at the most (for all 6 Tempests after insurance payouts) for the chance of getting ahold of a few of those modules.
This is starting to change the face of the game in Empire space. I fly for an industrial corp and we have changed our tactics. Our miners now hide out in remote areas, we actually post scouts to watch for gankers, we never move lightly defended ships into trade hubs (not after one of our members foolishly lost 2B ISK worth of sleeper loot in an industrial)
I know fetch my datacore harvests in a Nighthawk Command Ship that has an 80% plus resistance omnitank that I "think" will be able to withstand a large alpha strike.
Heck, even the price of Tempests has gone upas every killer out there is trying to buy them by the dozen so they can join in on the fun. (and I'll bet theres a slew of new people training projectile guns for the first time in ages)
CCP doesn't make changes quickly, I suspect they'll observe what effect this new increase in empire ganking has on the PVE player base to see if it puts undo stress on it. In fact, this might be all part of the plan to encourage people to stop hiding in empire, and take a few risks and move into wormholes (like most of my corp did) or 0.0 since there really isn't a "safe" place anymore. (especially when moving heavy goods)
It certainly has changed my plans, I just recently trained up on Maruarders for my empire alt and I think I'll fit it with mostly Tech 2 gear rather than faction modules (much cheaper) initially and see how much difficulty I'll have using it to mission run. (Otherwise I'll stick with the Nightwawk which really is an excellent mission ship)
Oh well, just wondering if anyone else has noticed any changes in empire life with the recent changes or are the incidents of occurance still so low that the risk is not something to be concerned with for the average empire player?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Don't know if it is due to any changes or just more people online lately, but when hauling, I am certainly getting targeted near gates a lot more. No one has taken a shot recently, but I'm generally only hauling somewhere between 10 and 50M worth of cargo in secure containers. I'm not using the biggest hauler and mostly moving personal assets to Jita though so might just not be a worthwhile target.
That said, Empire didn't seem very safe when my corp has been wardec'd so I'm not sure Empire is really a "safe zone" so much as a "slightly more safe" zone.
On another note: When you say "datacore harvest" are just referring to getting to the research agents to pick them up? If so, I've typically used a covops ship to get to the agents that are in lowsec with minimal harassment. The cores never really take much cargo room so seemed like the right approach.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Eve isn't safe.
Empire may be safer if you fit newb shit and haul nothing worth blowing up but get into something nice, do more than the average bear and you will get noticed, Decc'd, suicided and more.
in my opinion its safer to hang out in low traffic low sec than it is in empire.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Kyleran, the alpha of artilleries went up, however, it's not really that much of an impact.
People have been using all sorts of ships to suicide gank and it won't suddenly change with improved projectile alpha. It's just another weapon in the arsenal.
Ironically, miners and mission runners are the reason why suicide ganking is profitable. Their overproduction of minerals dropped the prices to an all time low.
I made a furtune buying and selling around 350 Catalyst this last weekend
Sometimes, those suicide gankers make someone elses day.
Are you prepared for hulkageddon?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Hi-sec space was never safe. There is just a widely held misconception that it is, or that it's supposed to be. Hi-sec is exactly like 0.0 in one vital respect: it's a safe assumption that virtually everyone you can see on your local would willingly kill you if they could. It's just harder to do so in hi-sec, so it doesn't happen as often.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
BestSigEver :P
In the Empire space region I'm currently living at, Hulk prices went from 100m to 180m post-Dominion (well, the regional average has gone up like that, so it's certainly not an isolated event).
While this may not be the main reason for the price increase, it may have been one of them, because we must also consider that with the NPC corp taxation a lot of people may have decided to get their Hulks and start mining.
Although I now reside in 0.0, I spent my first year or so living in empire and low sec. Suicide ganking was quite common before Dominion so nothing has really changed other than they are going after slightly bigger targets.
If I have to move anything around Empire, its in a feighter. And since we typically have 5-6 wardecs against us at a time, its a nuetral (alt) freighter.
I love to hunt.
Didn't the mat requirements for various ships also change which would likely contribute to a more universal price adjustment?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Saw that term posted last evening, what does it mean?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Saw that term posted last evening, what does it mean?
A competition is coming soon with about 4.5bil ISK in prizes for the most hulks killed.
hulkageddon
Well, whether it's good or bad only time will tell. I'm fairly sure CCP will eventually reduce the alpha strike capability of arty again once carebears start to whine and quit.
I'm also quite interested how this will affect prices. With fewer low-level high-demand ores being available and more ships being blown up, I could see a real mix up in the market.
Life's going to be interesting for a while.
That would only work if mining had any relevant impact on low end mineral production.
Hint: It doesn't.
Also, suicide ganking responsible for price increase of hulks? Laughable. The market for hulk is too big and won't be affected by a few people killing hulks in highsec. Prices changed because ccp screwed up t2 changes and of course market speculation.
And why the hell should projectile alpha be lowered? They're finally being used again after they were nearly useless in 0.0 warfare. Reverting that would be beyond stupid.
Didn't the mat requirements for various ships also change which would likely contribute to a more universal price adjustment?
Correct. IIRC, overall hulk production is in the hundreds per day.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Didn't the mat requirements for various ships also change which would likely contribute to a more universal price adjustment?
Correct. IIRC, overall hulk production is in the hundreds per day.
Really? Why? is it because people are losing them in titatnic numbers or something? (or is this normal?)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran,
Not sure if this a factor, but saw you mention Hulkaggedon and came across this link while doing some courier work today: hulkageddon.wordpress.com/
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Didn't the mat requirements for various ships also change which would likely contribute to a more universal price adjustment?
Correct. IIRC, overall hulk production is in the hundreds per day.
Really? Why? is it because people are losing them in titatnic numbers or something? (or is this normal?)
Because they're the most effective mining ship available, and a hell of a lot of people mine. A lot are killed every day too, and not just in events like Hulkageddon.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Most people just lose them in stupid numbers. Especially miners seems to be extremely incompetent at basic survival skills.
You'd think that a ship that can tank most 0.0 spawns for minutes and warp out within 17 seconds, not to mention easily having enough hp to survive most suicide attempts, wouldn't die in ridiculous numbers. Yet you're seeing people getting killed by npc in empire space..
Just as the market for ravens and golems is going well and healthy, the market for hulks is still growing..
I think this whole trend is a bad thing for the game.
The fact is this isn't pushing ppl out of empire into low sec it's doing the exact oposite. Now we people who would normally go out and hunt and pvp in low sec/0.0 going into empire for their pvp. Suicide ganking is just so easy and profitable and with insurance and insignificant chance of running into other pvp'ers making it almost risk free it's no wonder it's so common.
Empire suicide ganking is like lvl 4 missions in empire imo. It's the easy alternative to low sec offering more consistent and better rewards and less risk. I'm currently spending time in 0.0 with plenty of options for pvp around (goon vs IT war) and plenty of oportunities for profit with our own nice little system with plenty of upgrades to make it more profitable and still some of my corp mates decide to stay in empire and just suicide gank.
What surprises me most of all is that ccp still havn't done anything about it yet. Usually when massive events happen showing how exploitable something is they finally decide to act (goons DDD a capital) and yet we have special suicide gank events, plenty of factions and people who are entirely devoted to suicide ganking.
I remember talk of removing insurance from concord kills to balance it out once and we had massive forum whineage which stopped ccp from doing anything. It seems to me like suicide ganking has established itself as the easy low risk empire option for pvp, all we need now is planetary interaction to give us easy low risk option for sovereignty and no one will have to leave empire again.
Into the breach meatbags
Highsec has never been safe, and even though the alpha strikes on projectiles made them useable for suicide ganks, it hasn't bumped up the amount of suicide ganks massively, percentage-wise.
Dominion bumped up a lot of requirements for different ships, and this is the main reason the prices went up. Speculations goes to say prices will fall again (perhaps even under the pre-Dominion prices) as formerly low-end moons are "colonized" and mined.
I wish I had bought a ton of Hulks pre-Dominion.. Selling a Hulk for twice the price you bought it for? Yes please!
Also, when doing missions - just don't do it in busy systems. I read about a lot of people whining about ninja-salvaging, I have yet to be ninja-salvaged. And that's even though I do missions 90% of my alt's playtime. A lot of my corp mates have yet to be suicide ganked, even though they mine/haul basically 23/7 (also, I have yet to receive a wardec...)
That being said, I may just be lucky. Just yesterday a friend of mine lost a Hulk and a Retriever just yesterday, but he went back out an hour later. I talk with a lot of empire people, and none of them have been annoyed enough to whine about it. Every once in a while, there'll be the occasional "Damn.. Lost my ship.." conversation, but it's rare - and because of this, they just jump into a new ship and get back out there.
About the whole "moving people to low- and nullsec/WH-space", I think it's working. At least towards wormholes. There's just one problem; A lot of the wormholes have been claimed already. But a lot of my RL friends who started in December are moving to low-/nullsec to try it out, and have all found corps who'll help them out (Noone decided to join goons, though)
I'm waiting for them to return to empire because they're still "young", but I honestly don't know how it'll turn out. And wether this is because of CCP's changes or not, I don't know. Probably not.
If CCP really wanted to push people out of highsec, they should gimp mining in highsec so you can't make 100+ mil/hour in a Hulk mining Veldspar/Scordite. They should also move all lv4 agents there, so people can't make 100+ mil/hour by running missions. Then they should gimp trading, so you can't make 100+ mil/hour by sitting in a station. Or they could just remove CONCORD from anything but 1.0..
But I really don't think people shouldn't be forced into a situation they are uncomfortable with. I like empire as it is now.
EDIT:
Also, while suicide ganking is profitable right now (just based off of insurance payout), it'll balance itself out. It's just a question of time.
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