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Fun factor, grinding etc
I've been playing the game for two-three weeks. It's all right, I like the fps combat and freedom. There seems to be a lot of grinding involved though. I keep reading posts saying "it's absolutely terrible and you will never catch up with the vets if you don't macro 24/7" and the next says "it's not bad at all, I got archery mastery, GA mastery and vit to whatever level in few weeks without macroing anything and I'm competive in PvP now". Thus I ask how bad is the grind in reality? This is why I'm very tired of reading forums as people have strong opinions they want to throw around and are absolutely sure they are facts.
Another question, what makes you feel like you're really having fun in DF? The things that make up for the grinding and the boring moments. So far, I haven't experience that feeling too often. I'm enjoying exploring areas and using somewhat complex tactics to defeat big packs of mobs. Is the social experience with some good brawling involved, aka clan warfare, the thing that makes Darkfall Darkfall? After an intense clan battle, can you say all that stat grinding and resource gathering was worth it?
Last question, how is the community in reality? This gets many different opinion too. I haven't socialized with many players yet, but the first actual person I socialized with was a person playing same race character with blue alignment. He ganked when I was running back to my corpse and after asking "why?" I got response "sry hehe,,". Later when I finally had got my stuff back and returned in town, I jumped off my mount and out of nowhere the same person with very silly name mounts my death pig and rides away. I asked if he could give me the mount back and he responded "it's part of the game" and "I need a mount =P". I was little frustrated, but mainly confused. Is that really the idea of the game? Being complete tards to eachother? Okay, that was perhaps extreme example. It's the only example I have of DF community so far though.
Comments
What race are you? I'm guessing its not in the human/elf/dwarf alliance. I've heard the Mahirim/Ork alliance and especially the Alfar alliance are overall more juvenile in nature I've had nothing but good experiences as Human.
That's not to say I haven't gotten ganked by a blue. I have. But this is Darkfall... he didn't act like an asshat afterwards or anything so it doesn't really bother me(it wouldn't have bothered me regardless, actually). I'll catch him again sooner or later.
I also got rolled up on by a bunch of (red)dwarven pirates on a raft. I found that pretty humerous though.
1: How bad is the grind?
Well in reality it's as bad as you want it to be, it's not like you sub to Darkfall and Tasos is holding a loaded gun to your head telling you to grind your stats/skills or you die.
You don't need an uber char to have fun, it's just alot of people who aren't seasoned MMORPGers are used to subbing and then starting the race/grind to end level so you can start PvPing or whatever. It just doesn't work that way in DFO, most post WoW MMORPGers don't realize this or are not capable of adopting this philosophy.
But let's cut the crap for those that don't want to hear that, what does it take to be PvP viable in DFO? Well it depends on what you like to use in weapons, from day 1 if you're in a clan you can contribute to a battle. However the QQers don't want to talk about that so what is it they're QQing about? A guy plays for a week or two and gets killed at his starter city by reds farming for alignment, he gets rolled each time and is butt hurt because it's no fun being rolled (especially in DFO) and he hasn't got to max level in two weeks unlike WoW. What does he need to get competative so he doesn't get rolled at the starter city by reds? I'd say about 250 HP strength and vitality somwhere between 40 and 50. Decent archery maybe around 50-75 one two handed weapon to 50-75 and some banded armour. All easily attainable within a month and atleast allows you to get within the starter city and allow you to live long enough that the towers will do most of the work.
This isn't enough for the QQers, they want to roll the other guy but this takes player skill (FPS) and this is attained by practice in PvP, meaning you'll get pked a shit load before you learn to better these guys. So I say a month for the stats but maybe 3 months to learn how to win, how many people who've played counter strike or Battlefield jumped in and started owning after 2 weeks or even a month?
2: The good parts that make up for the grind?
Building the clan city, fighting in defence of it. Killing scumbags that are farming noobs for alignment but most of all helping new players get a foothold in Agon.
3: How is the community?
One of the best I've experienced in a long time, yes there are muppets but show me an MMORPG that doesn't have them. But considering it's a full loot FFA PvP game there's hardly any trash talking compared to say AoC. I think it might be because it's not safe to just sit somewhere and trash talk in the chat channels as you're likley to get ganked whilst concentrating on chat.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Many may not find a sense in it but such an experience remember me one of the best italo-western movie "the good, the bad, the ugly"..
Darkfall in parts shares some of that atmosphere of the movie and thats why i love Darkfall, some quotes may illustrate that :
*After the stand-off, where in Angel Eyes is killed and Tuco finds out that there're no bullets in his gun* Blondie to Tuco : "You see in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig."
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
How bad is the grind ?
It's hard to say. When you hit with your spell / arrow / sword every single time, and mobs respawn really quick, and you don't need to rest, run away or travel too often, skill gains are fine. If you're missing a lot, wait for mob to respawn, or rest to regain health - it feels like your skills raise very, very slowly.
Is that really the idea of the game? Being complete tards to eachother?
For some people - yes. You can't trust noone until you'll join a clan and gain respect of your clanmates.
I'm a casual player and I play about 2-3 hours a day and I'm doing just fine. I like the progress I've been making. It doesn't feel like a grind to me and I have PLENTY of other games to play but I still come back to play everyday. Mainly in the mornings, sometimes at night. But, it's all about moderation. Don't burn yourself out.
My sub ended in November, mostly due to being tired of AV, and watching the majority of people i played with give up or quit. I am not a clan hopper so frankly i got tired of trying to find new clans to play with, along with the boring aspects of the game.
The reason the majority of the players say the game is a grind, is that you end up skilling up very few skills at the same time. Probably melee skills up the most skills as it skills up your weaponskill, important stats that give hitpoints, and defensive skills. To skill up archery for example, really does not skill up defensive skills at all, so your focusing only on archery and its subskills. to skill up magic is similar, you focus on the main school, the spell, and then subskills which you get at various levels.
Given that there is no skill cap, or skill point gain over time, you end up skilling up to some extent virtually every skill you feel you need. A basic PVP template will require melee, archery, and magic skills, along with defensive skills built up somewhat, and a decent amount of hit points, you start at 200, but really 300 is a good baseline for an developed pvp build.
So the flaw with the grind, is that you have to grind skills/spells/weapons individually which means you repeat the process for each skill, subskill, and spell you want to get to a respectable level. Additionaly there is no real way to do this in actual PVP combat in a reasonable time frame. It has to be a dedicated effort via PVE or skilling up on AFK players , as the number of casts,hits, etc is very high.
Whats bad about this, is that it reinforces the player mentality that they have to get skill X up, then Skill Y up , then skill Z, at which point many fall into the trap of looking at skills instead of playing the game. The very gameplay ends up reinforcing this mentality, so players log in to grind after awile rather then play the game. Its a very easy trap to fall into, for many players. Darkfall basically requires single minded focus for much of your playtime for many of the aspects which allow you to become more competitive on the PVP playing field.
The community is below average, but it really depends on how you approach the game. Quite frankly the new player experience is probably the worst i have ever seen in a game. Unless you have resources and friends playing, or are able to get into an experienced clan, you will suffer quite a bit for the first 1-2 months. One of the major flaws in the game is there is no incentive for older players to protect new players. In most cases, old players will prey on new players, who lack the skill & knowledge to protect themselves. The game world does not have protections built in that are sufficient. The only real way around it is for a new player to get into a clan, as a stop gap measure, and there were some clans springing up to help new players after i quit. how well those clans work i do not really know. Your examples are pretty typical of the DF community in general. Its not bad to have it happen, at the time i quit though the problem was it was excessive in newbie areas. Some poor sob gets killed once, its not that big of a deal. After 20-30 times in a single play session its likely to drive many players away for good.
If you continue to play you need to find a clan that will help you out with some basics in the game, and help you get out of the worst part of the new player cycle, as well as work with you to help you learn the game as the leraning curve is somewhat high for a new player.
As far as actual fun, there were times the game was very fun, exciting and thrilling. Mostly in relation to PVP , sieges, raids etc. The other aspects of the game are frankly missing or very substandard. However you have to invest time to get to the PVP stage, unless you can handle the almost constant losing you will encounter in PVP for the first few months until you get your skills up , so that you are at least not a hinder to a group or clan.
That is the core point of the "grinding part" of your post. I agree with you that it lies in the responsibility of the player not to "fall into the trap". It is the players decision what they make out of their gaming session, they can grind the skills or they can play the game. They can go out hunting mobs with the mindset of skilling up a certain skill or farming for a reagent or just gold or they explore and take up on a random mob in the path.
The player is able to make that decision because of the underlying more important design of the freedom given to do so. That freedom is something you didn't refered to that much in your post. People fall into that trap because they are "people" but it doesn't mean someone forces you to become 1 vs 1 god ASAP. You don't have to win every fight you don't have to follow a "masterplan" get skill X, then Y, then Z you are free to do so and responsible for it to feeling like a grind for you if you do so.
Also the most thrilling parts you mentioned sieges, raids etc don't have some minimum requirements written over them. Early on you can participate in them and you are in a bad company if you given the feeling of "hinder" your team while you participate in such activities.
I am not sure you quit prior the clan "NEW" established on both server giving any newbie a home who want companions, that shows that the community isn't that bad after all. Just yesterday Ginger (a known EU PK newbie threat) got rolled by NEW newbies and got his full plate parts parted from him
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Yeah, it is quite hard to find the right Clan for you. I still haven't been able to find one either (also one of the reason why I took a break from DarkFall.). I'm not the type of person who likes to join the strongest clans as I find that boring and would rather join a weak clan and help it grow into one of the strongest clan instead. But weak clans are....too weak in DarkFall. The world is too harsh to allow any small clans to survive. They all end up with an Alliance and will hardly ever grow beyond that point.
---
And to answer OP, I know that the Human Alliance is somewhat mature compared to the other race alliance chat. Alfar is the worst chat. Though Ork Alliance Chat also has a large amount of mature players too.
As for the grind, depends on what you want to be. Quite frankly, you WILL grind a lot. You may take a break and do something else but in the end, you'll still have to grind to be proficient in PvP for exemple. Most PvPers all use Melee, Archery and Magic (Convertion magic mostly) so they have to grind all that. As for craftors, well unless you have the money (which is unlikely for a new player unless you are backed up by a clan), you will have to grind those harvest skills and grind your Wisdom to 40 just to get the usefull skills (Wisdom 50 also has a usefull skill for craftors). And then you'll also have to grind the craft skill you want to focus on....which will cost a lot of gold and/or materials.
Yes DarkFall is a grind. There's no way around it and the grind is long too compared to those who macro'ed their stats and skills up to the point where it seems unfair but yes it's possible to catch up. What hides the grind in DarkFall is the various activities you can do, but fact remains that you will have to grind your skills and stats a lot wether you like it or not.
Also the most thrilling parts you mentioned sieges, raids etc don't have some minimum requirements written over them. Early on you can participate in them and you are in a bad company if you given the feeling of "hinder" your team while you participate in such activities.
I am not sure you quit prior the clan "NEW" established on both server giving any newbie a home who want companions, that shows that the community isn't that bad after all. Just yesterday Ginger (a known EU PK newbie threat) got rolled by NEW newbies and got his full plate parts parted from him
To be even close to competitive in the PVP aspects, a player must build up a significant skill base, in a wide variety of skills. At the time i was playing sieges were the worst of all, due to the larger number of players, and more advanced players. WIthout some decent magic skills, if you were in a main battle line, a non developed player will fail to be a factor, other then in a pure support role, ie healing, or as a flanker. Obviously there is a range of factors involved, clan, tactics, group , communication etc etc. So either a newbie dies quick, and has minimal impact, or his role is extremely limited. Depending on playtime the limited role can be for quite some time, as it can take months to develop both the player skill, and charecter skills required. To say that a newbie can join sieges or raids is not the whole story, especially not if your in a developed clan or alliance.
Overall your not far off reguarding grind, but i will always dispute the "just play the game mentality" given how DFO mechanics work. There are far to many tedious aspects of the game that make players feel like they are grinding, and the mechanics reinforce the grind mentality. If you just Play as you say it, it rarely works out well enough to create a fun enviroment day in and day out for the majority of MMO players who try DFO.
To be honest i think the biggest thing DFO needs to do, is institute a skill over time equation, with a set number of skill points that can be spent, say 300-500 points gained per month, for 3 months up to 1500. which can be used on baseline skills to allow people to try various facets of the game, and can be respecced either over time or as a cash sink. While its not an ideal situation, the new player would at least gain some early help, to offset the negative grind aspects, and allow them to get to PVP more effectively at a faster pace. Points could even have higher costs for higher tier skills, so that skilling up is still a worthwile prospect.
Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm somewhat enjoying the game. I don't mind grinding, I actually even like it, but if there's not good reason, I just end up thinking "why the hell I'm doing this?". The grind doesn't seem to be as bad as some say. My main concern now is the community of orc/mahirim alliance. I've been reading the chat and there's quite a lot attention whoring and e-peen comparing going on by teenagers. Reminds me of 4chan. I had a dwarf before (rerolled orc), I can't remember how the community was there, I think it was better. Now I'm just thinking should I go back to dwarf, but I can't go through the grinding again I've done so far. Oh well.
Just my 2c...
I've been playing darkfall for 3 days now. My newbie experience has been excellent. I have met some excellent players. Some people will come up to me while I'm soloing and begin to heal me, also warning me of reds in the area. I play a dwarf is this matters any.
I have also added about 5 people to friends list and regrouped with them over the few days.
I have been ganked twice. The first time I was ganked was on the first ever goblin I started to attack.. I asked myself at that point, "It can't be that bad, can it?" That question was answered in the coming few days - no it isn't that bad. I've been slaughtering goblins for days and not one other person has ganked me, and I have had many people revive me, heal me, and group with me.
The other time I was ganked is when I travelled far away from the starter zone, exploring the areas. I got half way to where I wanted to go (probably a 10 minute walk from the starter town,) and looked around at the top of a mountain peak. I saw in the distance two players riding on the top of another mountain peak. They started riding their mounts towards me, and I started to hope they weren't reds - they were. They taunted and circled me on their mounts for about 30 seconds, then decided to gank me and take my stuff. It was my fault for not paying better attention and travelling in the bushes.. i got too confident wish the lesson has been learned for next time.
Overall, an excellent experience. As long as you understand Darkfall is like real life, nasty and cruel. Choose your friends wisely, travel in groups or out of sight, and never get over-confident. Excellent!!
If I had to compare Darkfall to any experience I've had, it's mostly like oldschool MUDs. If you trash talked or were a douche in most MUDs, people would gang up on you and full loot you. That would set you straight.
Why there should a be a such surprise for some people about the grind! The grind is no different from any other MMO. Only that you can do whatever you want meanwhile.
You dont need to grind to do anything. Just bring more people. It wont matter if you "maxout" everything and meet multiple oponents, you will loose if you are alone.
I really regret i didnt harvest/grind more in the beginning. It would really be helpful now when we are building our new city. To have some recources in the bank so to say : )
My first few days of DF were great. I was stunned by the general quality of the community.
A player on my 2nd day advised me to skin everything i kill and he gave me a few skinning knives, then after helping me kill 20-30 goblins, he gave me a bunch of gear to help me get started.
Have rcv'd no hate tells or brag chat, that may have something to do with the terrible chat UI though :P