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Read it and weep.....article f
Puoltry
Member Posts: 956
Here is what NCSOFT put into their own eula copy and pasted from the plaync.com site:
(f) Super Group Names, Super Group Member Titles, Battle Cry, and Character Description. While accessing the service, it is possible to name your Super Group, give titles to members of your Super Group, create a Battle Cry, and write a Character Description. You may not create a Battle Cry, Character Description, give a name to a Super Group, or give a title to a Super Group member that is the name/description/title of another person, or a name/description/title which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive, or which NC Interactive deems at its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any name/description/title given to a Super Group, Super Group Member, Battle Cry, or Character Description or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right.
If i were still playing the game id be a bit upset about this.Apparently NCSOFT doesnt feel like enforcing its own rules.Marvel has every right to sue them over this.If NCSOFT had taken care of this on launch and made it perfectly clear they would not tolerate this they wouldnt be getting sued.
NCSOFT shot themselves in the foot with this one.They probably will make Cryptic go bankrupt in the process as well.
Hey how much money do you think Marvel made off of Spiderman 1 and 2?Or for that matter the Xmen movies?They will let this drag on for years and years in the courts if they have to.
Way to go NCSOFT!!!!
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Comments
As a current player, I have witnessed the hands of the GMs. Some guy's "Sup3rm4n" (who was wearing blue outfit with red briefs and an "S" on his chest) got changed to "genericheroe253" right in the training area. NCSoft and Cryptic enforce their policy of trademark infringment. Both by players reporting offenders and GM's catching offenders.
The whole thing that Marvel is doing is not about the enforcement but that fact that you can make a marvel character in the character generation. It's as if the Tolken estate went after Everquest because you can make an elf with blond hair with a bow with the name "L3golus" in their character generator.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
If NCSOFT had not allowed it to happen they wouldnt be getting sued.I think its pretty naive of them to think someone from Marvel wouldnt be be playing and watching this game.
NCSOFT knew EXACTLY what they were doing with its character creation system.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
You can say the same thing for Everquest, WoW or any MMO out there. They allow the creation of Trademarked characters.
Please, review the lawsuit, because you could simply replace "City of Heroes" with another online game and still have the same issue.
http://eff.org/IP/20041115_Marvel_NCSoft.pdf
This lawsuit is unprecidented and could impact the customization of existing and yet to come online games, not just City of Heroes.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Oh i know about the lawsuit.
1.NCSOFT knew they were attracting MANY comic book fans.In the world of mmo's a game based on comic books just doesnt fly with the fantasy fanboi's.If it isnt a EQ knockoff then chances are it wont get played by the experienced majority.
2.As far as character customizations goes....Well does anyone really know what Gandalf the Grey looks like?For that matter has any well known fantasy character really been recreated in a way that (other than the name)when you see the character you KNOW on site who it is?
I cant think of another character creation system that allows for a deadon likeness of a well known character from any book or comic.It would be one thing if it was just a name.But not only is it the name but its almost the exact same copy of the character itself.
I just think that NCSOFT went ahead with it to attract comic book fans and to get as many subscriptions as they could.With players new to the genre they had no way to gauge how good or bad the game would be.As it is we all know a few players left after a month.It seems like those who stayed are either vets of the games or people who just dont know about other mmo's.
I look at it like this:
If you woke up one day and saw someone was using your likeness to make money what would you do?
This person is dressing like you,talking like you,acting like you in everyway.Oh and they didnt ask if it was ok.They just decided that not only will they do it but they will let everyone who wants to pay them 14.99 a month to do it too.
Oh did i mention you dont get any compensation for this?
To me its real simple NCSOFT is to blame here they didnt even enforce the rules THEY made for the game.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
MARVEL NEED TO BE SUED!
Please, someone, find something to sue Marvel about!
Be it on the blade thing because you are owning the rights for the world of Darkness or whatever. (half vampires are Revenants, a clear stealing from Whitewolf studio, no doubt in my mind, so the main character is created stealing an idea from Whitewolf directly...half vampire or Revenants, theft is theft)
Marvel need a lesson, someone need to teach them their own medicines! PLEASE!
PS: For peoples that remember me complaining at Mythic sueing Microsoft, I still didnt change my mind, they sue on a NEW project, dont sue Marvel on something NEW that will destroy the input into our existence, find something that have been around for sometimes and that sueing them over wont result in killing the project! Mythic lawsuit was to teach Microsoft, but they kill a new project and attack the players more then help teach Microsoft a lesson.
Blade is not a new project, it wont remove from the players/customers to attack it now. Drop all the charges against the Blade staff and just keep those against Marvel with an outside court agreement of $ 0.01 US, it Marvel that need a teaching bad. Marvel IS responsible for Blade...heck, you can even bribe the Blade staff for publicly admitting stealing ideas from Whitewolfs sourcebooks maybe, I dont see how Marvel could possible hope to not LOSE badly and pay HEFTY money to Whitewolf. *start drooling over the ideas of what Whitewolf would release as new products with such money*
PPS: Marvel lawsuit is ridiculous. Whitewolfs studio never sue Everquest for ''vampires'' in the game made by players, if anything, Withewolf smile and enjoy the free publicity from IT player base. Neither did UO sue Everquest. Neither will Sony sue Blizzard because a player name a toon Tunare and make her look like Tunare. Marvel need a serious ass kicking there!
PPPS: Marvel lawsuit attack the PLAYERS more then the company, they need a serious ass kicking, period! We are THEIR customers, to both of them, and if anything, they should do EVERYTHING so we enjoy the games, not limits what players can do. They cant prove that NCsoft make any money with that feature, all they can do is enforce less options to the players, which is not good for anyone, not even Marvel dimwit half piece of ()*&?$.
PPPPS: The customer is ALWAYS right. Put that into your thick head Marvel! And someone making a ''clone'' of your toons is obviously YOUR customer as well.
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Wow man you have got a lot to learn about the real world and how it operates.*shakes his head*
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
there only sueing them to get publicity for there own mmo game they are currently makeing:)
[quote]As far as character customizations goes....Well does anyone really know what Gandalf the Grey looks like?For that matter has any well known fantasy character really been recreated in a way that (other than the name)when you see the character you KNOW on site who it is?[/quote]
Artist renditions that are approved by the tolkien estate and also images rendered from the movie give you what Gandalf the Grey looks like.
Drizzt, Rand Al'Tor, many Book characters do have author approved art renditions that capture the image of what the author of a book likes.
Do you honestly believe that NCSoft/Cryptic did not check with Mavel, DC, Darkhorse, etc. regarding names that are not allowed. Do you think that NCSoft/Criptic did not talk about how they would handle trademark/Copy right violators with the afore mentioned comic book publishers?
I recall in beta that people brought this up as a concern. At the time, per Cryptic, was that they laid the cards on the table and got the green light.
Puoltry, What MMO do you play, I'm sure you have seen character trademark infringment and turned a blind eye to it. Many players in CoH report those players, and as I've said, I've witnessed a GM strip somone of thier character.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Im playing EvE online atm.
If they got the "green light"wich i seriously doubt why would they even bother to put article f into their own eula?
So lemme get this right your saying damn it all Marvel has no rights?Cryptic/NCSOFT can just do what ever they want?
Marvel has OWNED the rights to a lot of comic book characters for 30 years or more and most people who dont even read comics know who spiderman is right?The characters themselves are household names.Marvel has been making money from these same characters for a long long time.Most 8 year old kids know spiderman.
But yet the argument i hear from the CoH fans is that Marvel should just not sue at all and let CoH do whatever it wants.And why?
Because Marvel is a big bad corporate entity.
Where is the logic here?I fail to see how Marvel is the bad guy here.Tell me how copyright infringment and trademark violations are ok to turn a blind eye to?
Do YOU honestly beleive that ANY company would give a greenlight to another company to use a character they own or have owned without a licensing agreement?Do you think for a second that Nickelodeon isnt making money off of Burger Kings promotion of Spongebob Squarepants?
Bottom line is that NCSOFT owns the servers that the creation of similar characters occured on.Dont you think its obvious that they didnt get the greenlight?The lawsuit indicates that they did not get a greenlight.Im willing to bet they consulted with their own lawyers and noone else's.
Its been said before that Marvel has an mmo in development or has been thought about anyway.So why would they let a company doing the same type of game use the characters they will put into their own game?
If NCSOFT had stopped this from the 1st day they wouldnt be getting sued and they would not have put themselves into this position.As it is if and when they lose the lawsuit 3 things will more than likely happen:
1.The character creation system will be dumbed down.
2.They will be forced to delete any and all characters that are similar to anything copyrighted or trademarked by Marvel.
3.Im willing to bet that just to play it safe they delete any characters bearing any likeness to anything that looks like a violation of any copyright or trademark.
The end result?A really upset CoH community.If they had just done the responsible thing from the 1st day and not let anyone create a "wolverine2004" or a "Captain Amerika"then this wouldnt even be an issue.
Yeah i turn a blind eye to names but i dont really care enough to petition about it.I mean really if you want to invest time into a character that could possibly be deleted then go ahead.Its just a game after all.
NCSOFT is just as big a company as marvel.They will protect their own assets they could really care less about the community.Dont think for a second that they WONT change anything if it looks like it will cost them any cash.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Eve, great game, had a lot of fun in it...you read the EULA for Eve? Did you know they got the same thing? All MMO out there have the same EULA re: trademark and Copyright.
I can go right into Eve and make a character and call him Han Solo. give him the looks (love the morphing of the Eve character generator), the background and such to match him exactly. I am in the wrong to do this. Is there anything in the Eve Generator from stopping me? no.
When you make a character in CoH, the creation is up to the players. Marvel is stating that CoH encourages players to create and utilize heroes that are nearly identicle in name, appearance and characteristics to character belonging to Mavel.
Last I created a character in CoH, there was never an option that encouraged me to create a Marvel character. Nowhere in the character creation does it say "To make a Hulk character click here...to make a Cyclops, click here."
Shall we sue Champions RPG for the fact that players can do the same?
I'm not saying Mavel has no rights. They do. To say that NCSoft does nothing to offenders is bull, Offenders are changed, or deleted. But you know whats the kicker...that isn't even brought up that Marvel is questioning the actions that happen to offenders. The core of their argument is that you can make a marvel character look alike in the character generator AND that NCSoft/Cryptic encourages it's users to make them.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
If I recall I read something awhile back about Marvel creating its own mmorpg, I wonder if that influenced Marvel to sue, so it could garner more comic fans that could legally play a game with say wolverine, spiderman ect in it.
Btw does anyone have any info how far along Marvel is with their game?
Judging from past Marvel computer products, which is 1 of the rare company that is worser then Sierra, I would say it will never get released. It will prolly be a serious challenge for Marvel to just get the needed stuff to get in the list of MMORPGs.com, so to actually release a game? Dream on.
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye, I feel like I flame you a lot but you seem to shoot your mouth off without really thinking about what you're saying, or without really knowing what you're talking about. Serria does not have a reputation for releasing games late. The only one that was considerably late is Half-Life 2 and that's because someone stole the source code forcing them back to square one. The Fallout series and for us old timers that still remember, the Thexter series of games all came out as scheduled. The worse company as far as not realeasing games on time would be Blizzard. I don't think in the history of the company they've released a game less than a month over the scheduled time.
As far as Marvel being late on their games, all of there recent games have been for the console and come out on time.
Please, think a little bit before you post, and if you really don't know what you're talking about, say that. Say it's just your opinion or how you feel. You spout these rediculous notions as if they were fact.
Back on the subject however: I'm Mavel can win this one. They can't copyright the name Wolverine, sorry but it's an animal and already public domain. Same with Cyclopes, Sabertooth, Colssus, Beast, etc. Now if I make costumes that look EXACTLY like them that might be different, but you can't make a costume that looks EXACTLY like Wolverine's. Sure you can come close, but there is some precedence to follow: David Bowe and Queen (the music group) tried to sue Vanillia Ice for his song "Ice, Ice Baby". The song had a tune in it that sounded exactly like the tune in the Queen/Bowie song "Under Pressure". Queen/Bowie lost the case because 3 notes were slightly different. I'm not talking Ice made an A flat to a G sharp. I'm talking an A sharp was an A.
There is a good reason for Marvel to do this, if they don't, they risk having their property becoming public domain. If you have a copyright and you allow others to use it without your permission and you don't go after them in court, your property becomes commonly used and eventually becomes public domain. So they sort of HAVE to to keep their property theirs.
Jodokai: Well...Sierra is a company that have been around for 20 years, you need to take the full scope of those 20 years! I recall games that didnt even have a working demo, you dont want to know the full extend of the bugs inside the games, that is Sierra. The fact they release a few recent titles nicely certainly dont make amend for the last 20 years and I didnt even know they where late on Half-Life because, I judge on the full 20 years, not the last projects alone. The time of the release is the LEAST important feature as far as I am concerned, no bugs, many nice patchs and all those matter a lot...and Fallout was full of bugs at release! Birthright was a shame, their shogun version of Diablo is not even worth a comment and this is only a start...the list is still VERY long. Release is secondary to a company reputation, that is why Blizzard have a good reputation, dont even dare compare them with Sierra house of bugs.
Arguing about this lawsuit is nonsense, everyone know where everyone stand after 1 post, Marvel is gonna lose and badly I am pretty sure, some think otherwise, well, enjoy the results when it come out. NCsoft didnt use Marvel copyright, they only allow a very open minded system where some Marvel fans can copy to some extend against NCsoft wishes...NCsoft is not making 1 penny with this aspect of the feature...but again, arguing is pointless. You have made your mind and you hold to it, fine, at least respect the others and THINK a little more before insulting others.
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Riiight, don't let the fact that Fallout and Fallout 2 both won game of the year awards keep you from your delusions. Then in more recent years, Half-Life won Game of the Year, and guess what, you know that little mod that is the MOST PLAYED EVER called Counterstrike? Guess what that was made with? You guessed it the Half-Life engine. Even before Fallout there was Thexter I-III which a lot of developers still look at today as a model for space sims. Yeah Serria has a reputation of making bad games, except you're the only one that's heard it.
Back to Marvel vs. NCSoft.
Ok yes with the wide variety of costume pieces in the costume editor you can come close, CLOSE, to a Copyrighten Marvel Comic hero. In Copyright law close doesn't cut it. Marvel has to prove in court that NCSoft fully intended to exactly duplicate their copyrighted material. Guess what, you cant exactly duplicate any of the Marvel super heroes. You can come close. I have seen it said before, Marvel might as well sue crayola and marksalot, because with a colored crayon or marker you can come close to duplicating a Marvel super hero. Heck if you have real talent you can copy them. It is the same concept. A copyright is there to protect intellectual property yes, but it is not intended to censor creativity. Marvel is trying to say that no one can look like, move like, act like, talk like, or even think like a super hero because they own the rights to super heroes. Well they dont. Ever heard of DC comics? Pixar's Incredibles, does that ring a bell? The reason Tolkien cant sue Everquest is because the concept of an elf isnt his idea. Tolkien defined what an elf was in his realm, but the concept of a a fairy creature called an elf wasnt Tolkiens idea. Super heroes are not Marvel's original idea. Sure Marvel owns the rights to The Hulk, Spiderman et al. but they dont own the right to Super Heroes.
For those of you that support Marvel in this suit say good bye to freedom of speach. That is exactly what Marvel is telling the world. You dont have the right to speak or even think of anything that remotely resembles one of their super heroes. You cant doodle a spider on your notebook because that is a copyrighten logo for Spiderman. You cant have a character in any genre that has green skin because that is a copyrighten trademark of The Hulk. No blue or yellow spandex... ANYWHERE. No leather either. No white hair, no black hair. Do I need to continue?
Similar is not, and never will be, exactly the same. If Marvel wins they may be sueing you next for a doodle you did in grade school.
Just found the submission for dismissal put in by NCSoft and Cryptic: http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/NCSoftMot.pdf
If your interested, you can compair to Marvels lawsuit submission: http://www.eff.org/IP/Marvel_v_NCSoft/20041115_Marvel_NCSoft.pdf
looks to me, Mavel has no leg to stand on. We'll find out Feb 7th
**edit, damn, Marvel's lawsuit link not up
have to dig it up again. Sorry
***Edit, found an updated link...you can also get both on http://www.eff.org/IP/Marvel_v_NCSoft/
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Fallout credit go to Black Isle Studio(like CoH credit go to Cryptic, and EQ to Verant), Sierra is just there to collect other work benefit and you are quite naive to think Sierra is responsible for Fallout success, dream on little boy! Baldur's Gate have a wider success then Fallout, Sierra is hindering Black Isle Studio! I have to read 1 article that give Fallout success to Sierra rather then Black Isle Studio...like I said, dream on little boy! Giving credit to Sierra for Fallout would be like giving credit for AC to SoE.
For counterstrike, it is 1 product, and the fact it is successfull or not is 1 achievement on a list of hundred of failure, you are indeed a pretty young little one. I didnt check CS much, but I would not be surprised to see Sierra involvement was minimal, but there, I have no clue honestly, gratz to them if they finally release 1 working product after all those years of bullshiting.
Marvel is even worser then Sierra as far as personnal achievement, but like Sierra they are there to collect others work reward, leeches! Marvel could win against Cryptic alone, but against NCsoft, dream on, their are going to have a pretty harsh time! A wise man once said: Choose your fights well, Marvel did make a mistake there. They prolly consider Cryptic ability to defend themselves more then NCsoft, I am already enjoying the prospect to read the results.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Fallout credit go to Black Isle Studio(like CoH credit go to Cryptic, and EQ to Verant), Sierra is just there to collect other work benefit and you are quite naive to think Sierra is responsible for Fallout success, dream on little boy! Baldur's Gate have a wider success then Fallout, Sierra is hindering Black Isle Studio! I have to read 1 article that give Fallout success to Sierra rather then Black Isle Studio...like I said, dream on little boy! Giving credit to Sierra for Fallout would be like giving credit for AC to SoE.
For counterstrike, it is 1 product, and the fact it is successfull or not is 1 achievement on a list of hundred of failure, you are indeed a pretty young little one. I didnt check CS much, but I would not be surprised to see Sierra involvement was minimal, but there, I have no clue honestly, gratz to them if they finally release 1 working product after all those years of bullshiting.
Marvel is even worser then Sierra as far as personnal achievement, but like Sierra they are there to collect others work reward, leeches! Marvel could win against Cryptic alone, but against NCsoft, dream on, their are going to have a pretty harsh time! A wise man once said: Choose your fights well, Marvel did make a mistake there. They prolly consider Cryptic ability to defend themselves more then NCsoft, I am already enjoying the prospect to read the results.
Anofalye, most major gamig companies do this. EA Games has so many developers working with them, and they hardly ever publish and develop a game of their own. Same with many other gaming companies so dont hound Sierra on this point
There have been several games in the past(mostly wrestling games) that allowed you to make exact duplicates of Marvel characters and no one cared. Marvel is only sueing now because of one thing: ego.
Before Marvel was a nothing comic book company in constant financial trouble but now because every movie they make turns in $100 million they have a huge ego and think they can do whatever they want.
It's somewhat unlikely that this suit will ever see the light of day in a courtroom and if it does it's doubtful that Marvel would win but they don't care. If they can bully NCSoft enough for them to make changes and in doing so discourage future games then Marvel will accomplish what it set out to do.
Marvel thinks it owns superheroes, but it doesn't. This thing is going to be thrown out.
Its unlikely this case will be thrown out because, for example, the Exhibit which shows the Incredible Hulk, clearly looks like the Incredible Hulk.
Also, the person who created the character most likely intended to resemble the Incredible Hulk and every one of you who looks at the picture who knows the Incredible Hulk is reminded of him.
If this case doesnt go to trial it will be very surprising. I believe this is possibly a precedent setting case and a very complex one.
We may eventually end up with a situation where you cant even create your own name in an MMO, where all names are generated randomly or a universal name filter which all MMOs must use.
NCSoft/Cryptic appears to have gone a bit too far with the flexibility of character appearance although their intentions surely were to create an artistic approach toward character appearance.
Now we can see how Blizzard protected itself as far as character appearance with a much more restricted character generator which resembles uniqueness to the Blizzard world.
LOL.
Marvel is dimwit.
I am awaiting the sueing of Crayola!
NCsoft is enforcing their policy pretty well, they are not perfect, but they are doing a pretty good job.
Marvel deserve a lot of PAIN, and I sure hope they get a lot of it soon.
NCsoft is not using it, or making money out of it, end of the case.
Cutting players options to a nazi-like state would not be helping anyone, not even Marvel...it would just harm the games in general, remove players options, remove players freedom, and waste energies into the wrong area, but again Marvel dont care for the players and the customers, they are evil creature and they need a superhero to go kick their sorry ass!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Cryptic has an effective policing process that removes potentially offensive and trademark-infringing characters in a timely manner. Repeat offenders are banned from the game, and therefore unable to abuse the character generator. If the playerbase were not adequately policed, it would one thing. But it is adequately policed. Cryptic doesn't make money off the ability to make clones of trademarked characters. It has to spend money to vigilantly police character abuse.
Everybody who looks at the Sqaudron Supreme is reminded of the JLA, and most anyone who looks at the Shiar Imperial Gaurd knows that it is a homage to to the Legion of Superheroes. If Marvel wins, it has the potential to open itself up to trademark infringement litigation against itself. It's absurd. Talk about frivolous lawsuits.
I bought CoH a month after its expansion. I knew right off that I wasnt wanting to simply rip-off a character. Even though I love playing any game that puts me in the driver seat of my favorite characters, I was making my own character; a character I could mold and shape all on my own. My character was a magic based Mind Control controller. I named him Doctor Occult. After all the lawsuit hit the fan, I was accused of making a Dr. Strange character. My costume was different, I backstory was all original, and the only likeness i possessed was my character's haircut and goatee. Then come to find out, Doctor Occult is the name of a DC character long forgotten. Basically, in the world of comics, nothing is completely original. NCSoft should continue with slapping characters with the GenericHero555 label when need be and Marvel just lay off.