There are no hardcore players in wow anymore the last bunch left at the end of TBC
That doesn't change the fact of what the Aion developers wanted from their game, now doesn't it?
I don't know what the developers wanted or didn't want, really no one can! Game companies say shit all the time what they implement I think is more important. NC Soft doesn't Need the American markets, they want a piece but they do not need our market. I think they were probably stunned at how they thought they dumbed down the game and it still wasn't dumb enough for us good ole Americans. Its doing fine every where else in the world! Just as the majority of WOW subs come out of the Asian markets.
The game is where it is and they seem like they have some good ideas going forward. Guess what I funded WoW when it had 1 raid in game, Ill fund Aion for a while and see where the road leads, but its not a bad game, grind game or the like, it is what you make it , just like any other mmo
Microsoft said they would give us a operating system that was good! Diablo 3 was supposed to be out years ago! Don't believe everything you read, believe what becomes fact!
The only difference between the western and eastern version of the game is the time it takes for one to reach max level. That isn't dumbing it down that is what we call minimizing a pointless grind from a western point of view. In the East they are all about the grind to level cap. The western market is all about the game after you reach the cap.
There are no hardcore players in wow anymore the last bunch left at the end of TBC
That doesn't change the fact of what the Aion developers wanted from their game, now doesn't it?
I don't know what the developers wanted or didn't want, really no one can! Game companies say shit all the time what they implement I think is more important. NC Soft doesn't Need the American markets, they want a piece but they do not need our market. I think they were probably stunned at how they thought they dumbed down the game and it still wasn't dumb enough for us good ole Americans. Its doing fine every where else in the world! Just as the majority of WOW subs come out of the Asian markets.
The game is where it is and they seem like they have some good ideas going forward. Guess what I funded WoW when it had 1 raid in game, Ill fund Aion for a while and see where the road leads, but its not a bad game, grind game or the like, it is what you make it , just like any other mmo
Microsoft said they would give us a operating system that was good! Diablo 3 was supposed to be out years ago! Don't believe everything you read, believe what becomes fact!
The only difference between the western and eastern version of the game is the time it takes for one to reach max level. That isn't dumbing it down that is what we call minimizing a pointless grind from a western point of view. In the East they are all about the grind to level cap. The western market is all about the game after you reach the cap.
To add to what you have said:
In asia, the standard business model involves buying time, not a subscription. Players will get off of work or school and head to PC arcades or internet cafes, purchase time and play by the hour. Grind for them not only increases revenue for the publisher but also is a culturally supported action/comfort. To instill asian grind values to their work/student force is a cultural desire. Western and European gamers are more independent and studies have been shown that we are culturally not as comfortable with that style of play (if you consider it that).
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
well spoken, as I said everything is a grind including my damn job
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
This ^ is a good example of why reading comprehension is important.
Tell me, do you understand the difference between a CORE mechanic and a non core mechanic? No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp.
That said, lets try this again worded differently since you cant see to make a distinction between core mechanics and a time sink feature.
Grind is defined by it (core play style) being less of a choice and more of forced style of play, IN WHICH, the player is acutely aware of the process. IF they are not aware, and the grind is there, it is not grind. Grind is not just an action, its a reaction from an action.
For the record, Blizzard is the only developer to successfully hit both radically different target audiences, the casual gamer and the hard core. Aion tried this and failed. As you may not have noticed, Blizzard made the actual core gameplay, 1-60, 70, 80, a non grind process. The core of the game's mechanics and dynamics do not require grind at all. This is smart game design.
Lazy design would fall under... for example... AION, in which the grind is part of the core play style. You cannot avoid the grind, it starts at level 1 all the way to the end of the game. The reason everything in the game cost so much money and the leveling process promotes, rather forces, the player to find mobs to kill for hours on end until they reach the next level which they start all over again... is a sign of lazy or inexperienced game design.
The Aion developers even admitted this since they claimed to have had a high percentage of young inexperienced developers work on the project.
So nothing was debunked except for your claim of reading comprehension.
I wouldn't put Aion under lazy design, I've seen lazy design and Aion doesn't even compare. How about delivering pack of cigarettes over and over in Tabula Rasa, or a giant gap with no missions between level 30 and 35? TR is a pretty simple example of lazy design.
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
This ^ is a good example of why reading comprehension is important.
Tell me, do you understand the difference between a CORE mechanic and a non core mechanic? No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp.
That said, lets try this again worded differently since you cant see to make a distinction between core mechanics and a time sink feature.
Grind is defined by it (core play style) being less of a choice and more of forced style of play, IN WHICH, the player is acutely aware of the process. IF they are not aware, and the grind is there, it is not grind. Grind is not just an action, its a reaction from an action.
For the record, Blizzard is the only developer to successfully hit both radically different target audiences, the casual gamer and the hard core. Aion tried this and failed. As you may not have noticed, Blizzard made the actual core gameplay, 1-60, 70, 80, a non grind process. The core of the game's mechanics and dynamics do not require grind at all. This is smart game design.
Lazy design would fall under... for example... AION, in which the grind is part of the core play style. You cannot avoid the grind, it starts at level 1 all the way to the end of the game. The reason everything in the game cost so much money and the leveling process promotes, rather forces, the player to find mobs to kill for hours on end until they reach the next level which they start all over again... is a sign of lazy or inexperienced game design.
The Aion developers even admitted this since they claimed to have had a high percentage of young inexperienced developers work on the project.
So nothing was debunked except for your claim of reading comprehension.
Ok Mr Technicality, none of us are game developers so industry terms are useless here. On your point though
:No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp."
What World of Warcraft game are you playing? Really You either Grind Quests, or Grind Mobs, either way in WOW its the same tap tap shift alt button combo the whole way through. You are unable to sample what wow offers until you are 80. I mean you are not running Uldar at level 11.
Now when you hit 80 you have two choices, PVP or raid grind, now lets be clear here. Only recently has blizzard softened in favor of the casual gamer. If you take TBC do you remember you had to grind rep to get heroic attunement for a chance to grab badges in instances that dropped no Heroic or Purple loot. Orginal Blizzard catered the the hardcore gamer, it is one of the reasons very few people ever saw Naxxaraamus or better yet even stepped foot into AQ40. I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass. Every game has a grind what Blizzard did was cover the grind well enough so you didn't think it was a grind. However they did make me buy my fcking flying mount 3 times.
First the training cost 900 gold Then the flyier cost gold. Then you had to pay for an epic flying mount, oh wait and then you had to pay for cold flying weather. No matter how you slice it or what you call it, you GRINDED FOR GOLD TO GET the shit........
As for the Developers on Aion, I think they have done well. There are a ton of quest, tons of mobs I mean I dont see why the hate which is why I will continue to argue with you idiots. As for inexperience, better watch what you say there, because every American out of college started a job with no experience. Considering such, I think these inexperience developers did pretty well. They just didn't account for the stupidity of the WOW class.
BTW every action in wow and Aion is the same damn action, the fights all start the same, and they all end the same!
The only game where this action had more of a variable was Guild Wars, due to you have to choose what actions you took into battle but it still worked out to cookie cutter builds and the same action. Grind in MMO is normal shit, PERIOD
NOOB and for the record here is how wiki defines grind in MMO fckin reaction your an idiot
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft,[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked."
As you can see, you defined the word wrong not the op or any other person who has the slightest brain power! Go wiki it, if you must just don't come back and tell me wiki is not 100% fact which we all know anyways.
Im a gamer you are a gamer, my complaint is this
You prefer to see the whole world and kill a 100 diffrent mobs
I prefer to stand in place and kill the same damn rabbit 100 diffrent times
Either way we are both accomplishing the same Damn thing. We are just taking different paths all leading to the same road
What I hate it that you all define your way as better and if a game does not subscribe to your theory its a bad game
All I said was that analogy is wrong and the grind argument proves it. Its why, WOW, LOTRO, AION, VANGUARD, EQ and all the others are on this list are still around. But in any games defense you have to work the game to its fullest capacity to crediablly crritque the game and additonally the only thing I ever hear from anyone complaining about Aion is the grind. Yet you all love flying, you all think its pretty, its entertaining to most of you until you realize the extent of the GRIND and choose to quit and go back and sit in Dalaran for 6 hours rather then support it and give it a shot, just as all the original wow players privided the cash flow to make WOW what it is. Its a flawed frame of mind period, its also a closed minded view.
Derail a game for its inability to work or something but the grind argument is week, the generalzations coming from a guy who has 5 alts and no level caps is reduntly old
I love the fact that everyone who posts here appears to be some sort expert on mmo’s. The fact is that there is no way to compare one game to another and be 100% honest.
Games are created to serve as an outlet an enjoyable pass time. I see more and more that they are becoming a lifestyle. This is dangerous to us a society. We loose time with family and friends. I see the passion in the posts this proves the level of commitment to the games. We all have fallen prey to the makers will. If truth be told it all comes down to the almighty dollar. If a game is profitable it remains if it’s not its shut down.
To compare Aion to WoW is well just silly they are not in anyway alike. They both have qualities and flaws. Hmmm am I talking about a game or a human? I think both. We all have both. Explore games enjoy them just don’t allow yourself to be consumed by them.
As I type this I try to remind myself that I never finished high school and failed grade 8 English. I do a job that requires none of those skills. I would rather not have my grammar as focus for this post. I am sure the elitist are clamouring to do so.
Enjoy your play time and your own choices don’t put down someone for there choices.
Originally posted by gexz7 I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass.
Just a little offtopic, did you manage to get one? I looted 2 of those on my priest in the same zone (Stranglethorn Vale) within 2 weeks, it was strange luck, I kept one and sold the other.
I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass.
Just a little offtopic, did you manage to get one? I looted 2 of those on my priest in the same zone (Stranglethorn Vale) within 2 weeks, it was strange luck, I kept one and sold the other.
Nice I never got staff of jordon mobs went gray, as for teh eye nope only one. However the first night my priest officer grinded for his he got it.
Well the Drama llama has arrived. I love the fact that everyone who posts here appears to be some sort expert on mmo’s. The fact is that there is no way to compare one game to another and be 100% honest. Games are created to serve as an outlet an enjoyable pass time. I see more and more that they are becoming a lifestyle. This is dangerous to us a society. We loose time with family and friends. I see the passion in the posts this proves the level of commitment to the games. We all have fallen prey to the makers will. If truth be told it all comes down to the almighty dollar. If a game is profitable it remains if it’s not its shut down. To compare Aion to WoW is well just silly they are not in anyway alike. They both have qualities and flaws. Hmmm am I talking about a game or a human? I think both. We all have both. Explore games enjoy them just don’t allow yourself to be consumed by them. As I type this I try to remind myself that I never finished high school and failed grade 8 English. I do a job that requires none of those skills. I would rather not have my grammar as focus for this post. I am sure the elitist are clamouring to do so. Enjoy your play time and your own choices don’t put down someone for there choices.
Old
Only those people who have no worth in life have a care about grammar. I think your post is written quite well
“What World of Warcraft game are you playing? Really You either Grind Quests, or Grind Mobs, either way in WOW its the same tap tap shift alt button combo the whole way through. You are unable to sample what wow offers until you are 80. I mean you are not running Uldar at level 11.”
I wonder if you realize that some may argue that questing and grind are complete opposites, and therefore a contradiction.
A quest is an action or set of actions with a goal: Now, one must look at the goal and the reward from achieving that goal. You say you grind through quests in WoW? The whole point of the quest is to remove grind. I wonder if you will realize this…
WoW’s quests help speed the player along though an intelligently designed process of progression. They not only give a good reason for doing them, aka huge XP bonus, but also have a reward the player will actually want, quite a few are well scripted as well.
Therefore the quests are not indicative of grind as they remove the need to grind.
Going by what you say: you ignore the quests entirely. IN fact I think its safe to say you probably never read anything in game at all and probably just click next, next next accept without even paying attention to the writing or anything. In otherwords, you are forcing grind upon yourself, which is probably the root of your problem. Maybe one can even go as far to say that your attention span might be at fault, which is not uncommon. I know a few gamers who cant play any rpg cause it requires them to read and they have this aversion to reading. Its not something to brag about really.
In a way, you are attempting to force your forced playstyle on others by suggesting it’s a universal truth, when in reality, it is just you.
Lets look at AION: Aion successfully manages to make questing a grind, opposite of WoW questing. Why? Because AION quests end up looking like this “1/100”. That’s right, you have done the quest 1 out of 100 times. Each time gives you little XP and a reward no one really wants, if any at all. In fact, I can kill 5 easy mobs in a few minutes and get more XP than a quest would give, which takes much longer to complete. What is the purpose? There is none. Thus quests are designed poorly in AION to promote GRIND.
Not so with WoW.
On the contrary you are suggesting that you do not get to experience what WoW has to offer until you hit end game.
I do not know how you can honestly say this with a straight face. WoW paces pvp and pvp rewards throughout the game, from low level to end game. You can do BGs and earn pvp gear for your low level, just as you can at high level. They start feeding you the content ASAP. WARHAMMER ONLINE did this as well.
The same goes with quests, dungeons, loot types. You are given what the game has to offer every step of the way if you choose to do it.
Now for some reason I think you are irrationally thinking that means content as well. Content will not always be available at every level, that makes no sense. Content is what feeds the player as they progress. The content of a level 20 will be different than the content of a lvl 80. But what is content? Nothing more than zones, story lines, mobs and items. It is not of a different nature, but just a different variation of what is experienced at lower levels.
The original Blizzard, as you claimed, did NOT cater to the hardcore. They rewarded the hardcore player yes, but allowed for casual and hardcore play. Hardcore players were given epic dungeons to do. The problem here is that the casual players complained they couldn’t do it too, meaning, they didn’t want to meet the same requirements as everyone else. Yes Blizzard caved into the majority, which is sad, but the game was not for the hardcore. It was originally for all types of players.
Keep in mind, one of Blizzard’s ideologies is to be highly accessible, both in region and to player types. Why do you think they hit such a large market?
Gexz7:
“Now when you hit 80 you have two choices, PVP or raid grind, now lets be clear here. Only recently has blizzard softened in favor of the casual gamer. If you take TBC do you remember you had to grind rep to get heroic attunement for a chance to grab badges in instances that dropped no Heroic or Purple loot. Orginal Blizzard catered the the hardcore gamer, it is one of the reasons very few people ever saw Naxxaraamus or better yet even stepped foot into AQ40. I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass. Every game has a grind what Blizzard did was cover the grind well enough so you didn't think it was a grind. However they did make me buy my fcking flying mount 3 times."
"First the training cost 900 gold Then the flyier cost gold. Then you had to pay for an epic flying mount, oh wait and then you had to pay for cold flying weather. No matter how you slice it or what you call it, you GRINDED FOR GOLD TO GET the shit........”
It seems like you didn’t read my previous post very well.
No one said Blizzard didn’t have grind within the game, but rather it was optional and not part of the core/forced mode of play.
Again: reputation, achievement points, rank, these were OPTIONAL time sinks in which the player, if they chose to, could try to achieve. Like Molten Core, it wasn’t supposed to be for everyone, just anyone who wanted to meet that challenge aside from the rest of the game.
I don’t know how you had trouble with gold though in WoW. I actually crafted and sold drops on the Auction House. In fact, I was often giving gold to my guild mates just to help them get what they wanted, including mounts. It sounds like you refused to use the options Blizzard implemented to help you achieve those OPTIONAL rewards, such as mounts.
Gexz7: “I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon.”
Staff of Jordan was BOE, which means you could have just bought it off the AH. In fact, I remember selling over 5 of them pre-BC, excluding the one my druid had equipped.
Why you would farm a cave for a random WORLD DROP beats me. They are not limited to any one type of mob. Its clear that you set an unrealistic goal for yourself and acted unintelligently by blaming it on the game.
What this comes down to is your play style is well… not to sound offensive, but… unintelligent.
You went ahead and said WoW is for the hardcore, yet complain that you couldn’t get what you wanted, which was the exact thing the casual players did in order to nerf MC and items they had trouble obtaining.
Again, did you ever think of buying the staff off the AH at all? I mean, it wasn’t even the best staff out there.
Gexz7:
“As for the Developers on Aion, I think they have done well. There are a ton of quest, tons of mobs I mean I dont see why the hate which is why I will continue to argue with you idiots. As for inexperience, better watch what you say there, because every American out of college started a job with no experience. Considering such, I think these inexperience developers did pretty well. They just didn't account for the stupidity of the WOW class. “
So you are calling me an idiot now are you? Why because I have information that you don’t like?
You already admit to not being well versed on game design, so why would you call someone who works with game design an idiot? Do you tell your doctor he’s an idiot because he tells you that you are sick and you disagree with him?
I mean really now…
You might have skimmed past the part where I said I still have an active subscription for AION. I am not bashing the game, just pointing out design elements you choose not to accept. Saying AION has a problem with grind as part of its core design is not equal to hate. If anything, it is an inconvenient fact which you choose not to accept.
Do you know what the definition of Bias is according to behavioral science? It results in interfering with judgment, which is the case here with your clear bias against WoW.
Gexz7:
“Grind in MMO is normal shit, PERIOD
NOOB and for the record here is how wiki defines grind in MMO fckin reaction your an idiot”
Oh yes, you certainly showed me! Your words certainly back up your claim of intelligence… Quick, lets refer to a wiki (see below)….
(you do realize that Wiki’s are user generated information correct? I can go on to Wikipedia right now in fact and change information. Universities will not accept a wiki as source material…why? Because they are more like a collective blog, they are not signifiers of concrete information.)
Gexz7:
“"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft,[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked."
"As you can see, you defined the word wrong not the op or any other person who has the slightest brain power! Go wiki it, if you must just don't come back and tell me wiki is not 100% fact which we all know anyways.””
So, if you take your WIKI definition (lol), you see that it says repetitive and non entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to features within the game. Aka the CORE of the game.
So you are suggesting this does or does not back up what I say ALSO including your perspective? What this means is that you must find all games “non-entertaining” since you grind in all of them and love it. See the contradiction?
You must enjoy doing what is non-entertaining… wait, but that would make it entertaining, which means it is not grind according to this definition…therefore your claim to grind has been debunked, since you clearly are enjoying the grind, which makes it not-grind.
Sigh…
When I said earlier that I pity you… I really do. Not in a bad way, but in that you have not had the joyful experience of immersion and the ability to experience a grindless mode of play. Again, I really think you force “grind” upon yourself.
I would get more into the terminology and concepts behind behavioral science, which backs up some of the conditions seen here… but I have a feeling it would just be wasted. Lets just say, the mind is a powerful tool, if you turn everything into grind, regardless if it is or is not, you will be seeing it as such. A form of reverse subliminal perception if you will that results in negative reinforcement.
Gexz7:
“ Im a gamer you are a gamer, my complaint is this
You prefer to see the whole world and kill a 100 diffrent mobs
I prefer to stand in place and kill the same damn rabbit 100 diffrent times
Either way we are both accomplishing the same Damn thing. We are just taking different paths all leading to the same road”
You are a gamer, and I am a gamer/ designer w/ degree in interactive entertainment, game and film production. To understand design best, good designers study psychology and behavioral science.
In other words, you are a consumer, which is really what “I am a gamer” translates to. Nothing more.
The actions do not justify the means, in other words the method (key word in game design) is more important than the result. It is a matter of perception, action and reaction, and in other words, how the brain works.
Tell me, what is better. Finding someone you love, dating them, eventually marrying them, creating good memories and eventually having children.
Or
Going to a bar, having intercourse with any female you find without knowing them, and finally finding out you have children.
I mean, according to your thought process… the result is the same right? You have kids. Kids are the result, the accomplishment at the end of it all. I would argue that good game design, the counter to grind, is like a love story that ends in a family.
Grind would be like finding out that after sleeping around, not loving anyone, that you are now a father and have to take care of the kids you ended up with.
So when you suggest different paths with the same result don’t matter…. I argue, it makes all the difference in the world. Game design is about the PATH not just the RESULT.
there are always you literal type that define one word in a sentence base your argument off that one word and completely fail to comprehend the whole point. People are negatively complaining that Aion is stuck on the grind, in most cases no other consistent points are being pushed by the population that is unhappy with the game. However since you went there and prefer to put forth your level of sophistication on a game board, rather then writing for causes where someone with your writing skills might actually produce some good, cool I get it.
I'm baffled stop looking at the content every game has it. Look at the action, say your a mage, u hit the same starting frost or fireball on every action. You may sheep you may AOE its the same action. The quest to X to Y same action, the kill 100 of these the same action, the fact is the same action is occurring every single time. The same strategy is applied but hey its a game its what we expect. This no matter how many times you say it is not is in fact a GRIND. A dice rolls and boom action is taken. In reality WOW is behind in combat terms when compared to other.
EQ has heroic opportunites, Age of Conan has a whole slew of button smashing and counters, Aion has counters cross counters, even LOTRO has group combos. So yes more button smashing however you want to define it.
A repetitive action requiring no skills at all across all these games. I am able to take any age group from 6 to 50 and every player will mimick the same action 1000's of times in any of these games. Its who has the patience to wait it out,
So when you look at the two games the only thing is this, WOW constantly rewards you. The dinging every level, the drops the chance for some world pvp that never happens. Aion does not and and when you find some thing it makes you different from others if only for a slight moment. Its this moment that people like. I mean no one in WOW runs heroic raids anymore because there is such a small stat difference that why bother.
Aion is great a game that takes the mindless linear progression mimicks it and expands upon the road. Its the same things just a little longer and really its not that long people. In wow it generally takes 8-12 real days to go from 1-80, so in Aion it takes you 15-25 big deal!
The WOW crowd perpetuates WOW as being better, the thing is you never hear Aion players saying WOW sucks because most of us played WOW. We just choose not to sit in Dalaran every night doing nothing, when $35 bucks give you a new road if even for a while.
I was farming the cave for Staff of Jordon meaning I was trying to get it to drop so I could sell it. World drops do have percentages that are level defined. Not going to see the Staff of Jordon drop much in the level 60 area, you see what I am saying. I didnt see to man eye of shadows dropping in the barrens.
I am sorry for calling you a name it was poor taste
As for Wiki I knew as soon as I said it that someone would try me on it. Ill say this anything on TV is primarily fiction including most news outlets. The reasons colleges are not for it is because it promotes bad academic discipline and fails to teach student how to do factual based research and all the fun that comes with it. To blatantly say its inaccurate and that because anyone may edit it that its not legitimate is just wrong. You may edit it, but if you are factually off based it will never make it onto the site. Most of the issues with Wiki are the blind sources CIA crap military crap things others are unable to know just because.
Maybe 10% of wiki fits this did I mention I along with millions of WOW players think WOWiki is right on target
"In other words, you are a consumer, which is really what “I am a gamer” translates to. Nothing more"
Yes my point I am a consumer I buy games, Aion is a great game for its price, I do not intend to play the same game for for the rest of my life. Do you?
" Tell me, what is better. Finding someone you love, dating them, eventually marrying them, creating good memories and eventually having children.
Or
Going to a bar, having intercourse with any female you find without knowing them, and finally finding out you have children"
Well I think most people have done both. I know we would all prefer the first one. But why did you forget to include that 50% of the happy couples end up divorced and 40% of the men end up broke! Either way both are fun in their own ways.
So when you suggest different paths with the same result don’t matter…. I argue, it makes all the difference in the world. Game design is about the PATH not just the RESULT.
Always…
Those game are like that nowadays. IT SUCKS! Its not true defintion of MMORPG. It should be based by dropping u starting point and u go wherever you please. Your own way of adventure, don't have to go where everyone have gone through.
For single player RPG, I understand there is path, but with "MMO" there shouldnt be like that at all!
Some people here might want to check out the above link, because I'm seeing more than a few of the defenses mentioned in the article being used here.
I played Aion for the first month, then I left because I couldn't stand it anymore. I found I agreed with most of the common complaints against the game, too grindy/ not different enough from WoW/cutesy anime type graphics etc. However, I know someone at work who loves it and plays as much as he can. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
People are negatively complaining that Aion is stuck on the grind, in most cases no other consistent points are being pushed by the population that is unhappy with the game.
Fair enough in general aspect so I will give you my point of why I quit it. You may not care or agree with me though, but I will do it nonetheless.
Firs of all, let's get the meaning of grind out of they way. For me, personally, grind is not a action but the way I perceive or feel about a given process. For example, let's say I need to gain 100k exp. There are two ways for me to go about it. First would be to go into the world and mindlessly slaughter some wolves and boars and demons for 3 hours. Second would be to do quests for 5 hours which involve those same wolves and boars and demons but due distances I need to run between quests givers, it takes longer. Now, for me a mindless slaughter would be grind but not questing because it provides me with a purpose which allows to meet the end I'm after, 100k exp. Moving on.
One of the reasons I quit Aion is because there is little to none content which can make my journey to level 50 engaging and I feel like it is a perpetual grind. Also, the PvP in this game is completely based on a fact who has the biggest and shiniest sword. Another problem for me is that high leveled characters can freely gank and grief lower level characters just for the hell of it with no penalty to them. However, the main reason I quit is that for a game build around equipment it does not reward hard work but based around how lucky you are. In my opinion it is completely ridiculous that when you have 4 different tiers of equipment (white, green, blue, and orange) monsters barely drop 1st and 2nd tier of items. Yes, you may argue that it is stupid to expect instant gratification and you need to actually work in order to obtain them. However, I know I once spend around 4 hours killing zombies in Theobom and barely got few greens which I couldn't even use and then I saw a screen shot (on aionsource) of a guy who got 3 orange items in a span of killing 5 or so mobs. Now I may sound like I'm jealous of the lucky dude but I'm not. Besides, I have no idea how long he was farming those mobs but I do know that in order to obtain good gear, a lot of luck is involved. Going by the same rationale, crafting in this game blows too since it is based purely on luck. With proc rates being so crappy, crafting gear is equivalent of playing lottery. There is no mechanic that will reward those who truly work hard and try to obtain something but have bad luck that day, simply none. And no, buying gear doesn't equate to hard work and doesn't provide me with any satisfaction that I've done it.
So yea, the reason I parted with Aion is that I find it to be a grindfest which is based on luck and doesn't promote hard work.
You think going in to FT 20+ times is not hard work? You thinkg getting 200+ molars is not hard work?
The only time lucky is a major factor is when you craft...you get lucky and proc. But you always get what you make as long as you are the aproppriate level. I like the crating system because it weeds most people so the market is small keeping goods in demand. Plus it brings value to crafted items. If everyone proced all the time blues would have no value. Also most crafted gear is better than dropped items. The moral of the story is if you want good gear either make it or farm money to buy it. Don't rely on drops. This is not WOW.
I agree with you that some of the drop rates are dumb and that getting 200 molars when the mob only drops one per person is silly but they don't keep me from enjoying the game. I just avoid things like that since alot of the quests have blue gear later and in my legion there are crafters to make me items. The luck facto is in all MMOs. In WOW not everyone got a purple drop on normal mobs but it happeded sometimes. Doesn't mean you are unlucky just means it has not happened to you yet. But I can understand why you quit. I hope one day you'll come back : )
People are negatively complaining that Aion is stuck on the grind, in most cases no other consistent points are being pushed by the population that is unhappy with the game.
Fair enough in general aspect so I will give you my point of why I quit it. You may not care or agree with me though, but I will do it nonetheless.
Firs of all, let's get the meaning of grind out of they way. For me, personally, grind is not a action but the way I perceive or feel about a given process. For example, let's say I need to gain 100k exp. There are two ways for me to go about it. First would be to go into the world and mindlessly slaughter some wolves and boars and demons for 3 hours. Second would be to do quests for 5 hours which involve those same wolves and boars and demons but due distances I need to run between quests givers, it takes longer. Now, for me a mindless slaughter would be grind but not questing because it provides me with a purpose which allows to meet the end I'm after, 100k exp. Moving on.
One of the reasons I quit Aion is because there is little to none content which can make my journey to level 50 engaging and I feel like it is a perpetual grind. Also, the PvP in this game is completely based on a fact who has the biggest and shiniest sword. Another problem for me is that high leveled characters can freely gank and grief lower level characters just for the hell of it with no penalty to them. However, the main reason I quit is that for a game build around equipment it does not reward hard work but based around how lucky you are. In my opinion it is completely ridiculous that when you have 4 different tiers of equipment (white, green, blue, and orange) monsters barely drop 1st and 2nd tier of items. Yes, you may argue that it is stupid to expect instant gratification and you need to actually work in order to obtain them. However, I know I once spend around 4 hours killing zombies in Theobom and barely got few greens which I couldn't even use and then I saw a screen shot (on aionsource) of a guy who got 3 orange items in a span of killing 5 or so mobs. Now I may sound like I'm jealous of the lucky dude but I'm not. Besides, I have no idea how long he was farming those mobs but I do know that in order to obtain good gear, a lot of luck is involved. Going by the same rationale, crafting in this game blows too since it is based purely on luck. With proc rates being so crappy, crafting gear is equivalent of playing lottery. There is no mechanic that will reward those who truly work hard and try to obtain something but have bad luck that day, simply none. And no, buying gear doesn't equate to hard work and doesn't provide me with any satisfaction that I've done it.
So yea, the reason I parted with Aion is that I find it to be a grindfest which is based on luck and doesn't promote hard work.
You think going in to FT 20+ times is not hard work? You thinkg getting 200+ molars is not hard work?
The only time lucky is a major factor is when you craft...you get lucky and proc. But you always get what you make as long as you are the aproppriate level. I like the crating system because it weeds most people so the market is small keeping goods in demand. Plus it brings value to crafted items. If everyone proced all the time blues would have no value. Also most crafted gear is better than dropped items. The moral of the story is if you want good gear either make it or farm money to buy it. Don't rely on drops. This is not WOW.
I agree with you that some of the drop rates are dumb and that getting 200 molars when the mob only drops one per person is silly but they don't keep me from enjoying the game. I just avoid things like that since alot of the quests have blue gear later and in my legion there are crafters to make me items. The luck facto is in all MMOs. In WOW not everyone got a purple drop on normal mobs but it happeded sometimes. Doesn't mean you are unlucky just means it has not happened to you yet. But I can understand why you quit. I hope one day you'll come back : )
ok here is the thing if i have to avoid those quests because they require tons of work why bother even having quests at all
the quests were made to be done not avoided though honestly can see why they would be avoided
what i saw was in demand when it came to crafting but the crystals are just insanely priced and the crystals you need arent even cheaper then higher ones hell i noticed that regular crystals were going for much higher then something of a more higher value if that makes sense
and i shouldnt have luck when crafting you dont get lucky when you make a weapon you work hard and make a nice weapon or armor or whatever but the fact that if someone hands me almost 1 million kinah worth of stuff to make a weapon i shouldnt have to use all of the items and go oh well sorry do but here is the crap that didnt proc
and to make matters worse the only items in high demand are the ones that are damn near impossible to make
2 months was what i spent on aion never once did i make anything above a green weapon and i wasnt just lvl 1 or anything i worked work orders in massive amounts trying to keep up with those i knew around me that needed weapons
that was a dumb craft to choose anyway since i never was able to make anything worth a damn even at a lower lvl then what they needed
You think going in to FT 20+ times is not hard work? You thinkg getting 200+ molars is not hard work? The only time lucky is a major factor is when you craft...you get lucky and proc. But you always get what you make as long as you are the aproppriate level. I like the crating system because it weeds most people so the market is small keeping goods in demand. Plus it brings value to crafted items. If everyone proced all the time blues would have no value. Also most crafted gear is better than dropped items. The moral of the story is if you want good gear either make it or farm money to buy it. Don't rely on drops. This is not WOW. I agree with you that some of the drop rates are dumb and that getting 200 molars when the mob only drops one per person is silly but they don't keep me from enjoying the game. I just avoid things like that since alot of the quests have blue gear later and in my legion there are crafters to make me items. The luck facto is in all MMOs. In WOW not everyone got a purple drop on normal mobs but it happeded sometimes. Doesn't mean you are unlucky just means it has not happened to you yet. But I can understand why you quit. I hope one day you'll come back : )
I'm not talking about the fact of doing FT 20+ times per say, I'm talking about the fact that Player A will do FT for 30+ times and will barely get any whites from it while Player B will do it 5 times and will get a whole deal of greens from it. Did both of them work hard, yes they did. However, don't you think Player A deserves a green for his work or will you say that its completely fair and he should try harder next time and it will happen to him? And that is the main issue here because in PvP those who have better gear will have an advantage. However, yes you are correct. The luck factor exists in every MMO but since you admit yourself that crafted gear is better than most of the drops then why are the drop rates so horrible?
P.S. I have never played World of Warcraft so I have no clue how is it in that game.
Drop rates are low to give crafted gear value (imo). People are lazy if you give then all drops then no one will craft. So what I am saying to you and joker is that the very simple quests in the game give you blue items. The are easy to do and you don't have to grind to do them. If you want to run FT over and over then you are doing it to yourself. Many of the campaign quests and zone quests give you gear and blue items. I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you say gear is hard to get. Yes crafting blue gear is not easy but really blues are only marginally better than greens. Sure gear helps in pvp but its the end of the work if you are in greens and he's in blues.
the game tried to be like wow and couldnt its not as good as wow and will never succeed* because there is hardly a reason to play it over wow besides pretty graphics they tried to take the good things from wow and make em better, but the ended up making them worse....
ya...... see thing about wow is that wow needed to actually be "good" to make a statement like that.
Anyone that would try to copy WoW is a moron, cause well, WoW was for the moron MMO's or people trying something new "very short term". I dont care if i get rated down 500 times for that comment either, sorry, truth hurts. FFXI and FFXIV will live on above both of these pieces of ****.
Comments
That doesn't change the fact of what the Aion developers wanted from their game, now doesn't it?
They all rerolled gnome rogues and got infected with gnoob syndrome!
Want to play: Lego Universe
That doesn't change the fact of what the Aion developers wanted from their game, now doesn't it?
I don't know what the developers wanted or didn't want, really no one can! Game companies say shit all the time what they implement I think is more important. NC Soft doesn't Need the American markets, they want a piece but they do not need our market. I think they were probably stunned at how they thought they dumbed down the game and it still wasn't dumb enough for us good ole Americans. Its doing fine every where else in the world! Just as the majority of WOW subs come out of the Asian markets.
The game is where it is and they seem like they have some good ideas going forward. Guess what I funded WoW when it had 1 raid in game, Ill fund Aion for a while and see where the road leads, but its not a bad game, grind game or the like, it is what you make it , just like any other mmo
Microsoft said they would give us a operating system that was good! Diablo 3 was supposed to be out years ago! Don't believe everything you read, believe what becomes fact!
The only difference between the western and eastern version of the game is the time it takes for one to reach max level. That isn't dumbing it down that is what we call minimizing a pointless grind from a western point of view. In the East they are all about the grind to level cap. The western market is all about the game after you reach the cap.
That doesn't change the fact of what the Aion developers wanted from their game, now doesn't it?
I don't know what the developers wanted or didn't want, really no one can! Game companies say shit all the time what they implement I think is more important. NC Soft doesn't Need the American markets, they want a piece but they do not need our market. I think they were probably stunned at how they thought they dumbed down the game and it still wasn't dumb enough for us good ole Americans. Its doing fine every where else in the world! Just as the majority of WOW subs come out of the Asian markets.
The game is where it is and they seem like they have some good ideas going forward. Guess what I funded WoW when it had 1 raid in game, Ill fund Aion for a while and see where the road leads, but its not a bad game, grind game or the like, it is what you make it , just like any other mmo
Microsoft said they would give us a operating system that was good! Diablo 3 was supposed to be out years ago! Don't believe everything you read, believe what becomes fact!
The only difference between the western and eastern version of the game is the time it takes for one to reach max level. That isn't dumbing it down that is what we call minimizing a pointless grind from a western point of view. In the East they are all about the grind to level cap. The western market is all about the game after you reach the cap.
To add to what you have said:
In asia, the standard business model involves buying time, not a subscription. Players will get off of work or school and head to PC arcades or internet cafes, purchase time and play by the hour. Grind for them not only increases revenue for the publisher but also is a culturally supported action/comfort. To instill asian grind values to their work/student force is a cultural desire. Western and European gamers are more independent and studies have been shown that we are culturally not as comfortable with that style of play (if you consider it that).
Grind as a core mechanic and dynamic, is also usually a signal of lazy or untalented game design. It is cheaper to increase the time of achievement than actually having to create new or quality content.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
well spoken, as I said everything is a grind including my damn job
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
This ^ is a good example of why reading comprehension is important.
Tell me, do you understand the difference between a CORE mechanic and a non core mechanic? No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp.
That said, lets try this again worded differently since you cant see to make a distinction between core mechanics and a time sink feature.
Grind is defined by it (core play style) being less of a choice and more of forced style of play, IN WHICH, the player is acutely aware of the process. IF they are not aware, and the grind is there, it is not grind. Grind is not just an action, its a reaction from an action.
For the record, Blizzard is the only developer to successfully hit both radically different target audiences, the casual gamer and the hard core. Aion tried this and failed. As you may not have noticed, Blizzard made the actual core gameplay, 1-60, 70, 80, a non grind process. The core of the game's mechanics and dynamics do not require grind at all. This is smart game design.
Lazy design would fall under... for example... AION, in which the grind is part of the core play style. You cannot avoid the grind, it starts at level 1 all the way to the end of the game. The reason everything in the game cost so much money and the leveling process promotes, rather forces, the player to find mobs to kill for hours on end until they reach the next level which they start all over again... is a sign of lazy or inexperienced game design.
The Aion developers even admitted this since they claimed to have had a high percentage of young inexperienced developers work on the project.
So nothing was debunked except for your claim of reading comprehension.
I wouldn't put Aion under lazy design, I've seen lazy design and Aion doesn't even compare. How about delivering pack of cigarettes over and over in Tabula Rasa, or a giant gap with no missions between level 30 and 35? TR is a pretty simple example of lazy design.
Every MMO I have played including WOW has timesinks. The point of the timesink is to keep you playing over time. WOW makes you grind at the end of the game to get gear and wait for the next expansion this is a timesink of sorts. You can *grind* rep and *grind* honor to get pvp gear. So by your logic, WOW the highest grossing MMO of all time has lazy and untalented game designers? I think not. Myth busted!
This ^ is a good example of why reading comprehension is important.
Tell me, do you understand the difference between a CORE mechanic and a non core mechanic? No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp.
That said, lets try this again worded differently since you cant see to make a distinction between core mechanics and a time sink feature.
Grind is defined by it (core play style) being less of a choice and more of forced style of play, IN WHICH, the player is acutely aware of the process. IF they are not aware, and the grind is there, it is not grind. Grind is not just an action, its a reaction from an action.
For the record, Blizzard is the only developer to successfully hit both radically different target audiences, the casual gamer and the hard core. Aion tried this and failed. As you may not have noticed, Blizzard made the actual core gameplay, 1-60, 70, 80, a non grind process. The core of the game's mechanics and dynamics do not require grind at all. This is smart game design.
Lazy design would fall under... for example... AION, in which the grind is part of the core play style. You cannot avoid the grind, it starts at level 1 all the way to the end of the game. The reason everything in the game cost so much money and the leveling process promotes, rather forces, the player to find mobs to kill for hours on end until they reach the next level which they start all over again... is a sign of lazy or inexperienced game design.
The Aion developers even admitted this since they claimed to have had a high percentage of young inexperienced developers work on the project.
So nothing was debunked except for your claim of reading comprehension.
Ok Mr Technicality, none of us are game developers so industry terms are useless here. On your point though
:No player in WoW is forced to grind to play what the game has to offer, the leave it optional as to whether or not the player chooses to grind whether its faction points or pvp."
What World of Warcraft game are you playing? Really You either Grind Quests, or Grind Mobs, either way in WOW its the same tap tap shift alt button combo the whole way through. You are unable to sample what wow offers until you are 80. I mean you are not running Uldar at level 11.
Now when you hit 80 you have two choices, PVP or raid grind, now lets be clear here. Only recently has blizzard softened in favor of the casual gamer. If you take TBC do you remember you had to grind rep to get heroic attunement for a chance to grab badges in instances that dropped no Heroic or Purple loot. Orginal Blizzard catered the the hardcore gamer, it is one of the reasons very few people ever saw Naxxaraamus or better yet even stepped foot into AQ40. I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass. Every game has a grind what Blizzard did was cover the grind well enough so you didn't think it was a grind. However they did make me buy my fcking flying mount 3 times.
First the training cost 900 gold Then the flyier cost gold. Then you had to pay for an epic flying mount, oh wait and then you had to pay for cold flying weather. No matter how you slice it or what you call it, you GRINDED FOR GOLD TO GET the shit........
As for the Developers on Aion, I think they have done well. There are a ton of quest, tons of mobs I mean I dont see why the hate which is why I will continue to argue with you idiots. As for inexperience, better watch what you say there, because every American out of college started a job with no experience. Considering such, I think these inexperience developers did pretty well. They just didn't account for the stupidity of the WOW class.
BTW every action in wow and Aion is the same damn action, the fights all start the same, and they all end the same!
The only game where this action had more of a variable was Guild Wars, due to you have to choose what actions you took into battle but it still worked out to cookie cutter builds and the same action. Grind in MMO is normal shit, PERIOD
NOOB and for the record here is how wiki defines grind in MMO fckin reaction your an idiot
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft,[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked."
As you can see, you defined the word wrong not the op or any other person who has the slightest brain power! Go wiki it, if you must just don't come back and tell me wiki is not 100% fact which we all know anyways.
Im a gamer you are a gamer, my complaint is this
You prefer to see the whole world and kill a 100 diffrent mobs
I prefer to stand in place and kill the same damn rabbit 100 diffrent times
Either way we are both accomplishing the same Damn thing. We are just taking different paths all leading to the same road
What I hate it that you all define your way as better and if a game does not subscribe to your theory its a bad game
All I said was that analogy is wrong and the grind argument proves it. Its why, WOW, LOTRO, AION, VANGUARD, EQ and all the others are on this list are still around. But in any games defense you have to work the game to its fullest capacity to crediablly crritque the game and additonally the only thing I ever hear from anyone complaining about Aion is the grind. Yet you all love flying, you all think its pretty, its entertaining to most of you until you realize the extent of the GRIND and choose to quit and go back and sit in Dalaran for 6 hours rather then support it and give it a shot, just as all the original wow players privided the cash flow to make WOW what it is. Its a flawed frame of mind period, its also a closed minded view.
Derail a game for its inability to work or something but the grind argument is week, the generalzations coming from a guy who has 5 alts and no level caps is reduntly old
Well the Drama llama has arrived.
I love the fact that everyone who posts here appears to be some sort expert on mmo’s. The fact is that there is no way to compare one game to another and be 100% honest.
Games are created to serve as an outlet an enjoyable pass time. I see more and more that they are becoming a lifestyle. This is dangerous to us a society. We loose time with family and friends. I see the passion in the posts this proves the level of commitment to the games. We all have fallen prey to the makers will. If truth be told it all comes down to the almighty dollar. If a game is profitable it remains if it’s not its shut down.
To compare Aion to WoW is well just silly they are not in anyway alike. They both have qualities and flaws. Hmmm am I talking about a game or a human? I think both. We all have both. Explore games enjoy them just don’t allow yourself to be consumed by them.
As I type this I try to remind myself that I never finished high school and failed grade 8 English. I do a job that requires none of those skills. I would rather not have my grammar as focus for this post. I am sure the elitist are clamouring to do so.
Enjoy your play time and your own choices don’t put down someone for there choices.
Old
Nice I never got staff of jordon mobs went gray, as for teh eye nope only one. However the first night my priest officer grinded for his he got it.
Only those people who have no worth in life have a care about grammar. I think your post is written quite well
Gexz7:
“What World of Warcraft game are you playing? Really You either Grind Quests, or Grind Mobs, either way in WOW its the same tap tap shift alt button combo the whole way through. You are unable to sample what wow offers until you are 80. I mean you are not running Uldar at level 11.”
I wonder if you realize that some may argue that questing and grind are complete opposites, and therefore a contradiction.
A quest is an action or set of actions with a goal: Now, one must look at the goal and the reward from achieving that goal. You say you grind through quests in WoW? The whole point of the quest is to remove grind. I wonder if you will realize this…
WoW’s quests help speed the player along though an intelligently designed process of progression. They not only give a good reason for doing them, aka huge XP bonus, but also have a reward the player will actually want, quite a few are well scripted as well.
Therefore the quests are not indicative of grind as they remove the need to grind.
Going by what you say: you ignore the quests entirely. IN fact I think its safe to say you probably never read anything in game at all and probably just click next, next next accept without even paying attention to the writing or anything. In otherwords, you are forcing grind upon yourself, which is probably the root of your problem. Maybe one can even go as far to say that your attention span might be at fault, which is not uncommon. I know a few gamers who cant play any rpg cause it requires them to read and they have this aversion to reading. Its not something to brag about really.
In a way, you are attempting to force your forced playstyle on others by suggesting it’s a universal truth, when in reality, it is just you.
Lets look at AION: Aion successfully manages to make questing a grind, opposite of WoW questing. Why? Because AION quests end up looking like this “1/100”. That’s right, you have done the quest 1 out of 100 times. Each time gives you little XP and a reward no one really wants, if any at all. In fact, I can kill 5 easy mobs in a few minutes and get more XP than a quest would give, which takes much longer to complete. What is the purpose? There is none. Thus quests are designed poorly in AION to promote GRIND.
Not so with WoW.
On the contrary you are suggesting that you do not get to experience what WoW has to offer until you hit end game.
I do not know how you can honestly say this with a straight face. WoW paces pvp and pvp rewards throughout the game, from low level to end game. You can do BGs and earn pvp gear for your low level, just as you can at high level. They start feeding you the content ASAP. WARHAMMER ONLINE did this as well.
The same goes with quests, dungeons, loot types. You are given what the game has to offer every step of the way if you choose to do it.
Now for some reason I think you are irrationally thinking that means content as well. Content will not always be available at every level, that makes no sense. Content is what feeds the player as they progress. The content of a level 20 will be different than the content of a lvl 80. But what is content? Nothing more than zones, story lines, mobs and items. It is not of a different nature, but just a different variation of what is experienced at lower levels.
The original Blizzard, as you claimed, did NOT cater to the hardcore. They rewarded the hardcore player yes, but allowed for casual and hardcore play. Hardcore players were given epic dungeons to do. The problem here is that the casual players complained they couldn’t do it too, meaning, they didn’t want to meet the same requirements as everyone else. Yes Blizzard caved into the majority, which is sad, but the game was not for the hardcore. It was originally for all types of players.
Keep in mind, one of Blizzard’s ideologies is to be highly accessible, both in region and to player types. Why do you think they hit such a large market?
Gexz7:
“Now when you hit 80 you have two choices, PVP or raid grind, now lets be clear here. Only recently has blizzard softened in favor of the casual gamer. If you take TBC do you remember you had to grind rep to get heroic attunement for a chance to grab badges in instances that dropped no Heroic or Purple loot. Orginal Blizzard catered the the hardcore gamer, it is one of the reasons very few people ever saw Naxxaraamus or better yet even stepped foot into AQ40. I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon. My Priest Grinded for a week to get my eye of shadow for MC. I mean come on and stop talking out of your ass. Every game has a grind what Blizzard did was cover the grind well enough so you didn't think it was a grind. However they did make me buy my fcking flying mount 3 times."
"First the training cost 900 gold Then the flyier cost gold. Then you had to pay for an epic flying mount, oh wait and then you had to pay for cold flying weather. No matter how you slice it or what you call it, you GRINDED FOR GOLD TO GET the shit........”
It seems like you didn’t read my previous post very well.
No one said Blizzard didn’t have grind within the game, but rather it was optional and not part of the core/forced mode of play.
Again: reputation, achievement points, rank, these were OPTIONAL time sinks in which the player, if they chose to, could try to achieve. Like Molten Core, it wasn’t supposed to be for everyone, just anyone who wanted to meet that challenge aside from the rest of the game.
I don’t know how you had trouble with gold though in WoW. I actually crafted and sold drops on the Auction House. In fact, I was often giving gold to my guild mates just to help them get what they wanted, including mounts. It sounds like you refused to use the options Blizzard implemented to help you achieve those OPTIONAL rewards, such as mounts.
Gexz7: “I actually remember farming a cave for days on ends to get a shot at the Staff of Jordon.”
Staff of Jordan was BOE, which means you could have just bought it off the AH. In fact, I remember selling over 5 of them pre-BC, excluding the one my druid had equipped.
Why you would farm a cave for a random WORLD DROP beats me. They are not limited to any one type of mob. Its clear that you set an unrealistic goal for yourself and acted unintelligently by blaming it on the game.
What this comes down to is your play style is well… not to sound offensive, but… unintelligent.
You went ahead and said WoW is for the hardcore, yet complain that you couldn’t get what you wanted, which was the exact thing the casual players did in order to nerf MC and items they had trouble obtaining.
Again, did you ever think of buying the staff off the AH at all? I mean, it wasn’t even the best staff out there.
Gexz7:
“As for the Developers on Aion, I think they have done well. There are a ton of quest, tons of mobs I mean I dont see why the hate which is why I will continue to argue with you idiots. As for inexperience, better watch what you say there, because every American out of college started a job with no experience. Considering such, I think these inexperience developers did pretty well. They just didn't account for the stupidity of the WOW class. “
So you are calling me an idiot now are you? Why because I have information that you don’t like?
You already admit to not being well versed on game design, so why would you call someone who works with game design an idiot? Do you tell your doctor he’s an idiot because he tells you that you are sick and you disagree with him?
I mean really now…
You might have skimmed past the part where I said I still have an active subscription for AION. I am not bashing the game, just pointing out design elements you choose not to accept. Saying AION has a problem with grind as part of its core design is not equal to hate. If anything, it is an inconvenient fact which you choose not to accept.
Do you know what the definition of Bias is according to behavioral science? It results in interfering with judgment, which is the case here with your clear bias against WoW.
Gexz7:
“Grind in MMO is normal shit, PERIOD
NOOB and for the record here is how wiki defines grind in MMO fckin reaction your an idiot”
Oh yes, you certainly showed me! Your words certainly back up your claim of intelligence… Quick, lets refer to a wiki (see below)….
(you do realize that Wiki’s are user generated information correct? I can go on to Wikipedia right now in fact and change information. Universities will not accept a wiki as source material…why? Because they are more like a collective blog, they are not signifiers of concrete information.)
Gexz7:
“"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft,[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked."
"As you can see, you defined the word wrong not the op or any other person who has the slightest brain power! Go wiki it, if you must just don't come back and tell me wiki is not 100% fact which we all know anyways.””
So, if you take your WIKI definition (lol), you see that it says repetitive and non entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to features within the game. Aka the CORE of the game.
So you are suggesting this does or does not back up what I say ALSO including your perspective? What this means is that you must find all games “non-entertaining” since you grind in all of them and love it. See the contradiction?
You must enjoy doing what is non-entertaining… wait, but that would make it entertaining, which means it is not grind according to this definition…therefore your claim to grind has been debunked, since you clearly are enjoying the grind, which makes it not-grind.
Sigh…
When I said earlier that I pity you… I really do. Not in a bad way, but in that you have not had the joyful experience of immersion and the ability to experience a grindless mode of play. Again, I really think you force “grind” upon yourself.
I would get more into the terminology and concepts behind behavioral science, which backs up some of the conditions seen here… but I have a feeling it would just be wasted. Lets just say, the mind is a powerful tool, if you turn everything into grind, regardless if it is or is not, you will be seeing it as such. A form of reverse subliminal perception if you will that results in negative reinforcement.
Gexz7:
“ Im a gamer you are a gamer, my complaint is this
You prefer to see the whole world and kill a 100 diffrent mobs
I prefer to stand in place and kill the same damn rabbit 100 diffrent times
Either way we are both accomplishing the same Damn thing. We are just taking different paths all leading to the same road”
You are a gamer, and I am a gamer/ designer w/ degree in interactive entertainment, game and film production. To understand design best, good designers study psychology and behavioral science.
In other words, you are a consumer, which is really what “I am a gamer” translates to. Nothing more.
The actions do not justify the means, in other words the method (key word in game design) is more important than the result. It is a matter of perception, action and reaction, and in other words, how the brain works.
Tell me, what is better. Finding someone you love, dating them, eventually marrying them, creating good memories and eventually having children.
Or
Going to a bar, having intercourse with any female you find without knowing them, and finally finding out you have children.
I mean, according to your thought process… the result is the same right? You have kids. Kids are the result, the accomplishment at the end of it all. I would argue that good game design, the counter to grind, is like a love story that ends in a family.
Grind would be like finding out that after sleeping around, not loving anyone, that you are now a father and have to take care of the kids you ended up with.
So when you suggest different paths with the same result don’t matter…. I argue, it makes all the difference in the world. Game design is about the PATH not just the RESULT.
Always…
there are always you literal type that define one word in a sentence base your argument off that one word and completely fail to comprehend the whole point. People are negatively complaining that Aion is stuck on the grind, in most cases no other consistent points are being pushed by the population that is unhappy with the game. However since you went there and prefer to put forth your level of sophistication on a game board, rather then writing for causes where someone with your writing skills might actually produce some good, cool I get it.
I'm baffled stop looking at the content every game has it. Look at the action, say your a mage, u hit the same starting frost or fireball on every action. You may sheep you may AOE its the same action. The quest to X to Y same action, the kill 100 of these the same action, the fact is the same action is occurring every single time. The same strategy is applied but hey its a game its what we expect. This no matter how many times you say it is not is in fact a GRIND. A dice rolls and boom action is taken. In reality WOW is behind in combat terms when compared to other.
EQ has heroic opportunites, Age of Conan has a whole slew of button smashing and counters, Aion has counters cross counters, even LOTRO has group combos. So yes more button smashing however you want to define it.
A repetitive action requiring no skills at all across all these games. I am able to take any age group from 6 to 50 and every player will mimick the same action 1000's of times in any of these games. Its who has the patience to wait it out,
So when you look at the two games the only thing is this, WOW constantly rewards you. The dinging every level, the drops the chance for some world pvp that never happens. Aion does not and and when you find some thing it makes you different from others if only for a slight moment. Its this moment that people like. I mean no one in WOW runs heroic raids anymore because there is such a small stat difference that why bother.
Aion is great a game that takes the mindless linear progression mimicks it and expands upon the road. Its the same things just a little longer and really its not that long people. In wow it generally takes 8-12 real days to go from 1-80, so in Aion it takes you 15-25 big deal!
The WOW crowd perpetuates WOW as being better, the thing is you never hear Aion players saying WOW sucks because most of us played WOW. We just choose not to sit in Dalaran every night doing nothing, when $35 bucks give you a new road if even for a while.
I was farming the cave for Staff of Jordon meaning I was trying to get it to drop so I could sell it. World drops do have percentages that are level defined. Not going to see the Staff of Jordon drop much in the level 60 area, you see what I am saying. I didnt see to man eye of shadows dropping in the barrens.
I am sorry for calling you a name it was poor taste
As for Wiki I knew as soon as I said it that someone would try me on it. Ill say this anything on TV is primarily fiction including most news outlets. The reasons colleges are not for it is because it promotes bad academic discipline and fails to teach student how to do factual based research and all the fun that comes with it. To blatantly say its inaccurate and that because anyone may edit it that its not legitimate is just wrong. You may edit it, but if you are factually off based it will never make it onto the site. Most of the issues with Wiki are the blind sources CIA crap military crap things others are unable to know just because.
Maybe 10% of wiki fits this did I mention I along with millions of WOW players think WOWiki is right on target
"In other words, you are a consumer, which is really what “I am a gamer” translates to. Nothing more"
Yes my point I am a consumer I buy games, Aion is a great game for its price, I do not intend to play the same game for for the rest of my life. Do you?
" Tell me, what is better. Finding someone you love, dating them, eventually marrying them, creating good memories and eventually having children.
Or
Going to a bar, having intercourse with any female you find without knowing them, and finally finding out you have children"
Well I think most people have done both. I know we would all prefer the first one. But why did you forget to include that 50% of the happy couples end up divorced and 40% of the men end up broke! Either way both are fun in their own ways.
Those game are like that nowadays. IT SUCKS! Its not true defintion of MMORPG. It should be based by dropping u starting point and u go wherever you please. Your own way of adventure, don't have to go where everyone have gone through.
For single player RPG, I understand there is path, but with "MMO" there shouldnt be like that at all!
Kain_Dale
im still enjoying the game
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
ditto, double XP weekend has been nice also
www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3949/page/2
Some people here might want to check out the above link, because I'm seeing more than a few of the defenses mentioned in the article being used here.
I played Aion for the first month, then I left because I couldn't stand it anymore. I found I agreed with most of the common complaints against the game, too grindy/ not different enough from WoW/cutesy anime type graphics etc. However, I know someone at work who loves it and plays as much as he can. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Fair enough in general aspect so I will give you my point of why I quit it. You may not care or agree with me though, but I will do it nonetheless.
Firs of all, let's get the meaning of grind out of they way. For me, personally, grind is not a action but the way I perceive or feel about a given process. For example, let's say I need to gain 100k exp. There are two ways for me to go about it. First would be to go into the world and mindlessly slaughter some wolves and boars and demons for 3 hours. Second would be to do quests for 5 hours which involve those same wolves and boars and demons but due distances I need to run between quests givers, it takes longer. Now, for me a mindless slaughter would be grind but not questing because it provides me with a purpose which allows to meet the end I'm after, 100k exp. Moving on.
One of the reasons I quit Aion is because there is little to none content which can make my journey to level 50 engaging and I feel like it is a perpetual grind. Also, the PvP in this game is completely based on a fact who has the biggest and shiniest sword. Another problem for me is that high leveled characters can freely gank and grief lower level characters just for the hell of it with no penalty to them. However, the main reason I quit is that for a game build around equipment it does not reward hard work but based around how lucky you are. In my opinion it is completely ridiculous that when you have 4 different tiers of equipment (white, green, blue, and orange) monsters barely drop 1st and 2nd tier of items. Yes, you may argue that it is stupid to expect instant gratification and you need to actually work in order to obtain them. However, I know I once spend around 4 hours killing zombies in Theobom and barely got few greens which I couldn't even use and then I saw a screen shot (on aionsource) of a guy who got 3 orange items in a span of killing 5 or so mobs. Now I may sound like I'm jealous of the lucky dude but I'm not. Besides, I have no idea how long he was farming those mobs but I do know that in order to obtain good gear, a lot of luck is involved. Going by the same rationale, crafting in this game blows too since it is based purely on luck. With proc rates being so crappy, crafting gear is equivalent of playing lottery. There is no mechanic that will reward those who truly work hard and try to obtain something but have bad luck that day, simply none. And no, buying gear doesn't equate to hard work and doesn't provide me with any satisfaction that I've done it.
So yea, the reason I parted with Aion is that I find it to be a grindfest which is based on luck and doesn't promote hard work.
You think going in to FT 20+ times is not hard work? You thinkg getting 200+ molars is not hard work?
The only time lucky is a major factor is when you craft...you get lucky and proc. But you always get what you make as long as you are the aproppriate level. I like the crating system because it weeds most people so the market is small keeping goods in demand. Plus it brings value to crafted items. If everyone proced all the time blues would have no value. Also most crafted gear is better than dropped items. The moral of the story is if you want good gear either make it or farm money to buy it. Don't rely on drops. This is not WOW.
I agree with you that some of the drop rates are dumb and that getting 200 molars when the mob only drops one per person is silly but they don't keep me from enjoying the game. I just avoid things like that since alot of the quests have blue gear later and in my legion there are crafters to make me items. The luck facto is in all MMOs. In WOW not everyone got a purple drop on normal mobs but it happeded sometimes. Doesn't mean you are unlucky just means it has not happened to you yet. But I can understand why you quit. I hope one day you'll come back : )
Fair enough in general aspect so I will give you my point of why I quit it. You may not care or agree with me though, but I will do it nonetheless.
Firs of all, let's get the meaning of grind out of they way. For me, personally, grind is not a action but the way I perceive or feel about a given process. For example, let's say I need to gain 100k exp. There are two ways for me to go about it. First would be to go into the world and mindlessly slaughter some wolves and boars and demons for 3 hours. Second would be to do quests for 5 hours which involve those same wolves and boars and demons but due distances I need to run between quests givers, it takes longer. Now, for me a mindless slaughter would be grind but not questing because it provides me with a purpose which allows to meet the end I'm after, 100k exp. Moving on.
One of the reasons I quit Aion is because there is little to none content which can make my journey to level 50 engaging and I feel like it is a perpetual grind. Also, the PvP in this game is completely based on a fact who has the biggest and shiniest sword. Another problem for me is that high leveled characters can freely gank and grief lower level characters just for the hell of it with no penalty to them. However, the main reason I quit is that for a game build around equipment it does not reward hard work but based around how lucky you are. In my opinion it is completely ridiculous that when you have 4 different tiers of equipment (white, green, blue, and orange) monsters barely drop 1st and 2nd tier of items. Yes, you may argue that it is stupid to expect instant gratification and you need to actually work in order to obtain them. However, I know I once spend around 4 hours killing zombies in Theobom and barely got few greens which I couldn't even use and then I saw a screen shot (on aionsource) of a guy who got 3 orange items in a span of killing 5 or so mobs. Now I may sound like I'm jealous of the lucky dude but I'm not. Besides, I have no idea how long he was farming those mobs but I do know that in order to obtain good gear, a lot of luck is involved. Going by the same rationale, crafting in this game blows too since it is based purely on luck. With proc rates being so crappy, crafting gear is equivalent of playing lottery. There is no mechanic that will reward those who truly work hard and try to obtain something but have bad luck that day, simply none. And no, buying gear doesn't equate to hard work and doesn't provide me with any satisfaction that I've done it.
So yea, the reason I parted with Aion is that I find it to be a grindfest which is based on luck and doesn't promote hard work.
You think going in to FT 20+ times is not hard work? You thinkg getting 200+ molars is not hard work?
The only time lucky is a major factor is when you craft...you get lucky and proc. But you always get what you make as long as you are the aproppriate level. I like the crating system because it weeds most people so the market is small keeping goods in demand. Plus it brings value to crafted items. If everyone proced all the time blues would have no value. Also most crafted gear is better than dropped items. The moral of the story is if you want good gear either make it or farm money to buy it. Don't rely on drops. This is not WOW.
I agree with you that some of the drop rates are dumb and that getting 200 molars when the mob only drops one per person is silly but they don't keep me from enjoying the game. I just avoid things like that since alot of the quests have blue gear later and in my legion there are crafters to make me items. The luck facto is in all MMOs. In WOW not everyone got a purple drop on normal mobs but it happeded sometimes. Doesn't mean you are unlucky just means it has not happened to you yet. But I can understand why you quit. I hope one day you'll come back : )
ok here is the thing if i have to avoid those quests because they require tons of work why bother even having quests at all
the quests were made to be done not avoided though honestly can see why they would be avoided
what i saw was in demand when it came to crafting but the crystals are just insanely priced and the crystals you need arent even cheaper then higher ones hell i noticed that regular crystals were going for much higher then something of a more higher value if that makes sense
and i shouldnt have luck when crafting you dont get lucky when you make a weapon you work hard and make a nice weapon or armor or whatever but the fact that if someone hands me almost 1 million kinah worth of stuff to make a weapon i shouldnt have to use all of the items and go oh well sorry do but here is the crap that didnt proc
and to make matters worse the only items in high demand are the ones that are damn near impossible to make
2 months was what i spent on aion never once did i make anything above a green weapon and i wasnt just lvl 1 or anything i worked work orders in massive amounts trying to keep up with those i knew around me that needed weapons
that was a dumb craft to choose anyway since i never was able to make anything worth a damn even at a lower lvl then what they needed
I'm not talking about the fact of doing FT 20+ times per say, I'm talking about the fact that Player A will do FT for 30+ times and will barely get any whites from it while Player B will do it 5 times and will get a whole deal of greens from it. Did both of them work hard, yes they did. However, don't you think Player A deserves a green for his work or will you say that its completely fair and he should try harder next time and it will happen to him? And that is the main issue here because in PvP those who have better gear will have an advantage. However, yes you are correct. The luck factor exists in every MMO but since you admit yourself that crafted gear is better than most of the drops then why are the drop rates so horrible?
P.S. I have never played World of Warcraft so I have no clue how is it in that game.
Drop rates are low to give crafted gear value (imo). People are lazy if you give then all drops then no one will craft. So what I am saying to you and joker is that the very simple quests in the game give you blue items. The are easy to do and you don't have to grind to do them. If you want to run FT over and over then you are doing it to yourself. Many of the campaign quests and zone quests give you gear and blue items. I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you say gear is hard to get. Yes crafting blue gear is not easy but really blues are only marginally better than greens. Sure gear helps in pvp but its the end of the work if you are in greens and he's in blues.