There is levels in every game, and there is endgame in every game. Deal with it.
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
No, not in the traditional sense it doesn't. It does have skills and by current estimates it would take a person 27 years to train them all, so I suppose you could call that end game.
But gaining skills ad infinitim isn't the goal of the game, they are just tools to be used to obtain your goals, whether it be controlling free space, dominating the market, or crafting the biggest ships.
Therefor players really are in end game from the moment they first log in, and it doesn't exist in the same form as in a truly level based game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
The only problem with this is that, if you are doing the same activity at "level 1" as "level 5", how is it called "end game" all of a sudden versus "the game'. If I am chopping wood on day 1 and I get incrementally better at chopping wood as time passes, then how does reaching max wood chopping suddenly become end game? My point being, if the activity is pretty much unchanged, but you just do it better, is that really considered an "end game" versus a game that has a specific storyline progression that you advance via raids or such?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, it sounds like you're tossing an insult at sandbox endgame...?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
There is levels in every game, and there is endgame in every game. Deal with it.
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
No, not in the traditional sense it doesn't. It does have skills and by current estimates it would take a person 27 years to train them all, so I suppose you could call that end game.
But gaining skills ad infinitim isn't the goal of the game, they are just tools to be used to obtain your goals, whether it be controlling free space, dominating the market, or crafting the biggest ships.
Therefor players really are in end game from the moment they first log in, and it doesn't exist in the same form as in a truly level based game.
So endgame is 27 years away, it's still endgame, even if it's that far away. O_o
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
Endgame, let's be honest, is where MMO developers try to convince people to keep playing their game after they've run out of game to offer. It's like playing Halo, reaching the end and still having some meaningless tasks to do in order to keep you playing (and paying a potential monthly fee). When it's over, it's over. There ought not be an endgame, there ought to be an end to the game, you won, go create another character or find a new game.
I really never enjoyed the endgame of MMOs. I never understood why people like the endgame - it just makes me want to go to sleep during those large raids.
I was always about the journey - loving the mid-levels the best. The mid-levels always seemed when people were most vulnerable, levels come quickly, and skills advance rapidly. There is a sense of accomplishment during the mid-levels. Couple this with your new skills and spells you just received, and it's all fun until the fun slows down. Almost with 95% of my characters, I'd get to about 80% of max level, then re-roll, quit, or start an alt because I'd end up falling asleep at the keyboard in groups.
Most of these raids are done for a few select pieces of equipment that may be 5% better than what everyone else has on. What is this equipment needed for? Lack-luster pvp? If it's not for pvp then you'll be using it on the next raid you'll go on. But really, with 20+ people raids, is that 5% better equipment really going to make or break the raid? Of course not.
Everyone has different tastes. not saying that endgame is the worst idea in the world - just mainly saying it's not for me.
The only problem with this is that, if you are doing the same activity at "level 1" as "level 5", how is it called "end game" all of a sudden versus "the game'. If I am chopping wood on day 1 and I get incrementally better at chopping wood as time passes, then how does reaching max wood chopping suddenly become end game? My point being, if the activity is pretty much unchanged, but you just do it better, is that really considered an "end game" versus a game that has a specific storyline progression that you advance via raids or such?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, it sounds like you're tossing an insult at sandbox endgame...?
I'm really not sure how you read that as an insult. It is a compare and contrast excercise. Let's looks at WoW for example. When I get to 80, I begin the end game content which has a logical progression of Raid A, to Raid B, to Raid C, and so on. There are lore based reasons to participate in the raids so this is "end game" content. Once I've exhausted the content, I must wait for another patch before it can advance further.
Now, suppose I am playing EvE. I log in to my Caldari character and start training Standard Missles Level 1. By the end of the day I've trained Standard Missles to 4 and I can now do a bit more damage with those missles, but I'm still firing missles. Maybe I train a bit longer and get to 5 and can start training Standard Missles Specialization and use slightly better launchers and missles. Therefore, while I've progressed, I've not changed the activity I was doing and no lore has advanced. The content has also not changed or advanced as a result of my activity. Therefore, EvE could be said to not have an end game in the traditional sense. Add to that the idea that EvE is really about hte player empires and there is no "end" to the game and no waiting on a patch for that next piece of the story.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
There is levels in every game, and there is endgame in every game. Deal with it.
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
You are confusing levels with progression. Yes, they all have progression. That is not being questioned. They are not, however, level-based games by any definition.
You also seem to be of the contention that people play games like UO and EVE to get to the skillpoint cap. While some may play that way, it is certainly not the design, intent or standard by which most people play those MMOs, especially since you can hit your skill cap in UO in a week and you will never hit it in EVE.
From that last post, I think the big hurdle here is that you're discussing a topic you really aren't familiar with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I was always about the journey - loving the mid-levels the best. The mid-levels always seemed when people were most vulnerable, levels come quickly, and skills advance rapidly. There is a sense of accomplishment during the mid-levels. Couple this with your new skills and spells you just received, and it's all fun until the fun slows down. Almost with 95% of my characters, I'd get to about 80% of max level, then re-roll, quit, or start an alt because I'd end up falling asleep at the keyboard in groups.
I think we both play level-based MMOs the same way. WOW is the only level-based MMO where I ever had a max'd character. In all of them, WOW included, I found the middle range of levels more fun than any other range.
- there's more options for setting my 'challenge level'. I can go fight level 50 stuff at 40 or farm the crap out of level 25 content.
- i've got a good handle on what my character can do. Most of what my character will be able to do is acquired by the middle levels.
- I can easily progress to the middle level range, which means I can get to the content I enjoy relatively quickly.
- Content usually branches out more in the middle levels. MMOs usually start to present more complex content and branch content more in the middle levels.
- There are more non-guilded players in the middle levels than in the higher levels. This is important for people who usually level slow or play predominantly solo because it means more opportunity to group when they want to or need to. By 'endgame most players are entrenched in their guild/clan or are focused on some specific path.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is levels in every game, and there is endgame in every game. Deal with it.
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
Usually when people talk about endgame on this website, they refer to raids or pvp, both at which you will only be effective at max lvl.
In some games this isnt how it works. In SWG for example you can develop character traits that have nothing to do with your character's level or an 'endgame' that is waiting for you at lvl cap(pilot, city mayor, beast master, chronicles masteretc).
In a game as Guild Wars, you are max lvl very early on in the game. If there is one game where you can say that it starts at max lvl, its this one. Also you can PVP at max lvl right out of the box.
So two games that get rid of the unimaginative idea that games are always about lvling so you start an 'endgame'. There are more games like that, which wont follow that WoW mold.(Yes I know older MMO's did that before WoW, but I say WoW anyway, because everyone knows what you mean then )
So basically you have games where you do the same thing the entire game, starting from the beginning. You could argue the endgame is the entire game, or its just the game. You still have progression, but what your doing never really changes. This is only really true for EvE as far as I know. Darkfall has more capped progression unless you get serious guild help.
Other games you have a journey and a destination. So really you have two different games built into one. If you like the journey great. But if you don't like the end of the journey you either re-roll or quit. If you don't like the journey, well then your SOL in this type of game. I think that these games cater to more people because it offers two types of game play, opposed to one.
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ was launched....and I've never made it to an End Game...I've never even gotten a character to max level...in any MMO. I "play" around too much.
Like others have said, "It's all about The Journey", and I'm still traveling.
So basically you have games where you do the same thing the entire game, starting from the beginning. You could argue the endgame is the entire game, or its just the game. You still have progression, but what your doing never really changes. This is only really true for EvE as far as I know. Darkfall has more capped progression unless you get serious guild help. Other games you have a journey and a destination. So really you have two different games built into one. If you like the journey great. But if you don't like the end of the journey you either re-roll or quit. If you don't like the journey, well then your SOL in this type of game. I think that these games cater to more people because it offers two types of game play, opposed to one.
That's an interesting point, Drez. In level-based MMOs, the game caters offers content for two groups. The people that enjoy leveling, who can always reroll and level new classes up, and the people who enjoy the raid/gear content at the end. With expansions, both groups get new content - more levels for the first and more gear.raids for the second.
Broader appeal through one path. Neat!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I love the term, 'the endgame is only the beggining.'
And, when a game has lived for long enough, that has the same model of level cap as WoW, it's inevitable to create a game catered around content for the people who reached the 'end', since it's so much more easier.
But, it fails to deliver in the terms where the player him/herself will find that the repetition of 'endgame' is only parallel to milking a dead cow. BORING BORING BORING GOD SO FUCKING BORING
Endgame is a easy plateau to reach that allows developers to rely on, and just pile shit upon shit upon shit to make it look a bit more fun and smelly.
But hey guys, it's still fun trying to look abit more awesome with those huge ass armors and whatnot, just keep on grinding.
There is always endgame, for every game, the only game that has no endgame is FoM, because it has NO levels, period.
Endgame is, by far, the most ridiculous goal or concept that the MMO community has ever devised.
If the endgame is what you were playing to get to, what were you paying for prior to that? Were you actually paying for content you did not like or did not want in order to get to this nirvana of gaming? If so, why were people doing that and why was it consider acceptable?
Do people really want a single fixed thing to do when they reach max level? Do they really just want each expansion to be a few more levels and new gear/dungeons to go with those levels? If the game evolves in different directions with each expansion, doesn't that defeat the concept of endgame?
As if levels weren't a horrible enough flaw to introduce into massive persistent worlds, creating and near universally accepting the concept of endgame is infinitely worse.
Endgame is, by far, the most ridiculous goal or concept that the MMO community has ever devised.
If the endgame is what you were playing to get to, what were you paying for prior to that? Were you actually paying for content you did not like or did not want in order to get to this nirvana of gaming? If so, why were people doing that and why was it consider acceptable?
Do people really want a single fixed thing to do when they reach max level? Do they really just want each expansion to be a few more levels and new gear/dungeons to go with those levels? If the game evolves in different directions with each expansion, doesn't that defeat the concept of endgame?
As if levels weren't a horrible enough flaw to introduce into massive persistent worlds, creating and near universally accepting the concept of endgame is infinitely worse.
Players who expect 'endgame', are players who are used to play linear lvling themepark MMO's. You know, the perfect MMO to rush to lvl cap, so you can start the 'endgame' where the game then finally really really starts. In any MMO that offers a lot more diversity in features and character development, 'endgame' is rarely asked for. Well, except by the new player who comes straight from the themepark MMO, hasnt played for 5 minutes yet, or even read about it and starts asking 'so whats the endgame in ythis game about?' .
Oh gawwwd, I am so sick of "those players." WTF, man...you're level one and asking about "endgame." It fucking boggles the mind.....
What happened to the ACTUAL game...you know....the journey of playing the game itself and not really WANTING it to END? That terminology is one of the worst words EVER to be coined into gaming, imo.
That entire rush to endgame mentality sucks all the fun out of games, if you ask me. Games in the MMO genre, were initially not INTENDED to ever HAVE an "endgame." Endgame is something you got to in single player games...games that you could "beat" or "win." The whole idea of "endgame" flies in the face of virtual life in a persistent world.
If there is one term I would like to ERASE from the minds of gamers today....this word would be it.
Do you know what "endgame" means to me? It's that part of an MMO where you completely run out of real content and have to start "grinding" something....whether it be grinding raid instances, or reputation, or crafting, or PvP, or "achievements," or WHATEVER. "Endgame" is the END of the ACTUAL game. It's the end of exploration, it's the end of discovery, it's the end of the game world FEELING like a world and becoming....a job.
What happened to the ACTUAL game...you know....the journey of playing the game itself and not really WANTING it to END? That terminology is one of the worst words EVER to be coined into gaming, imo.
In some ways, the design of a game can really aid in enjoying the journey.I don't play much of any one MMO - an hour or two here or there for each - but I've played a good bit of DDO this past week. I haven't the slightest clue what level I am or what the level cap is. All I know id that I have been thoroughly engrossed in going through a range of adventures both by myself and with others that I happened to meet standing about town.
Maybe it's because DDO doesn't have that big number in the upper corner of the screen reminding you of the size of your ePeen compared to others. Maybe it's because the rewards are doled out at the end of the campaign and not as incremental advancements during the adventure. Maybe it's the efforts Turbine has taken to present it as a story and narrative where you actively solve puzzles and uncover information to move forward, rather than an obviated gather/frag quota with an arrow that takes you straight to the completion point.
Whatever the case may be, for me at least, DDO seems to focus more on the journey than the end. As Girlgeek mentioned, DDO is a game where I look forward to completing each campaign, but i am in now way rushing or anxious to reach the 'end' of DDO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by girlgeek Do you know what "endgame" means to me? It's that part of an MMO where you completely run out of real content and have to start "grinding" something....whether it be grinding raid instances, or reputation, or crafting, or PvP, or "achievements," or WHATEVER. "Endgame" is the END of the ACTUAL game. It's the end of exploration, it's the end of discovery, it's the end of the game world FEELING like a world and becoming....a job.
That's the definition I personally prefer.
Lets' not forget that there could be many 'endgames' in a single MMO. SWG had multiple professions and playstyles but each of them had their own endgame and the major problem with the game was that you hit them way too early and they had very little to do. EVE also has multiple endgames and its best feature is that you can easily try a different path if the one you are on 'endgames' on you.
Problem is endgame is actually very ill defined and subjective.
Endgame however to many is the hard raid bosses.However ,it could just mean what do you do when you hit a level cap or in case of games like old SWG or UO skill cap.
But really i doubt there is a particular definition of mmorpg endgame.
Players who expect 'endgame', are players who are used to play linear lvling themepark MMO's. You know, the perfect MMO to rush to lvl cap, so you can start the 'endgame' where the game then finally really really starts. In any MMO that offers a lot more diversity in features and character development, 'endgame' is rarely asked for. Well, except by the new player who comes straight from the themepark MMO, hasnt played for 5 minutes yet, or even read about it and starts asking 'so whats the endgame in ythis game about?' .
Oh gawwwd, I am so sick of "those players." WTF, man...you're level one and asking about "endgame." It fucking boggles the mind.....
What happened to the ACTUAL game...you know....the journey of playing the game itself and not really WANTING it to END? That terminology is one of the worst words EVER to be coined into gaming, imo.
That entire rush to endgame mentality sucks all the fun out of games, if you ask me. Games in the MMO genre, were initially not INTENDED to ever HAVE an "endgame." Endgame is something you got to in single player games...games that you could "beat" or "win." The whole idea of "endgame" flies in the face of virtual life in a persistent world.
If there is one term I would like to ERASE from the minds of gamers today....this word would be it.
Do you know what "endgame" means to me? It's that part of an MMO where you completely run out of real content and have to start "grinding" something....whether it be grinding raid instances, or reputation, or crafting, or PvP, or "achievements," or WHATEVER. "Endgame" is the END of the ACTUAL game. It's the end of exploration, it's the end of discovery, it's the end of the game world FEELING like a world and becoming....a job.
Fuck "endgame."
Thats because Lvling is nothing but a tutorial for End Game. It prepares you for End Game. Take WoW for example. In Vanilla WoW, lvling was very slow. So by time you hit max lvl, you knew how to play your class (unless it was brought or something). You knew how to play as a Team and interact with other classes in mutiplayer.
All of this was to ge players ready for the real game which is End Game. Raiding and 40v40 PvP battles were the End Game. Which was alot harder then lvling. Levels only got you ready for the learning curve.
Endgame? This is an MMORPG.. which means THERE IS NO DAMN ENDGAME.. so please stop using this term for Massive Multiplayer, living world styled, online games.. there is no endgame.. if you want endgame.. go play a single player pc or console game...
Endgame? This is an MMORPG.. which means THERE IS NO DAMN ENDGAME.. so please stop using this term for Massive Multiplayer, living world styled, online games.. there is no endgame.. if you want endgame.. go play a single player pc or console game...
/end rant
MMORPG doesn't mean "No endgame". MMORPG's with "endgame" are not inferior to those without, actually the opposite. Of course this is only a matter of opinion, which makes the point even more valid. You're not one to tell us what MMORPG is or isn't.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
No, not in the traditional sense it doesn't. It does have skills and by current estimates it would take a person 27 years to train them all, so I suppose you could call that end game.
But gaining skills ad infinitim isn't the goal of the game, they are just tools to be used to obtain your goals, whether it be controlling free space, dominating the market, or crafting the biggest ships.
Therefor players really are in end game from the moment they first log in, and it doesn't exist in the same form as in a truly level based game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The only problem with this is that, if you are doing the same activity at "level 1" as "level 5", how is it called "end game" all of a sudden versus "the game'. If I am chopping wood on day 1 and I get incrementally better at chopping wood as time passes, then how does reaching max wood chopping suddenly become end game? My point being, if the activity is pretty much unchanged, but you just do it better, is that really considered an "end game" versus a game that has a specific storyline progression that you advance via raids or such?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, it sounds like you're tossing an insult at sandbox endgame...?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
No, not in the traditional sense it doesn't. It does have skills and by current estimates it would take a person 27 years to train them all, so I suppose you could call that end game.
But gaining skills ad infinitim isn't the goal of the game, they are just tools to be used to obtain your goals, whether it be controlling free space, dominating the market, or crafting the biggest ships.
Therefor players really are in end game from the moment they first log in, and it doesn't exist in the same form as in a truly level based game.
So endgame is 27 years away, it's still endgame, even if it's that far away. O_o
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
Endgame, let's be honest, is where MMO developers try to convince people to keep playing their game after they've run out of game to offer. It's like playing Halo, reaching the end and still having some meaningless tasks to do in order to keep you playing (and paying a potential monthly fee). When it's over, it's over. There ought not be an endgame, there ought to be an end to the game, you won, go create another character or find a new game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I really never enjoyed the endgame of MMOs. I never understood why people like the endgame - it just makes me want to go to sleep during those large raids.
I was always about the journey - loving the mid-levels the best. The mid-levels always seemed when people were most vulnerable, levels come quickly, and skills advance rapidly. There is a sense of accomplishment during the mid-levels. Couple this with your new skills and spells you just received, and it's all fun until the fun slows down. Almost with 95% of my characters, I'd get to about 80% of max level, then re-roll, quit, or start an alt because I'd end up falling asleep at the keyboard in groups.
Most of these raids are done for a few select pieces of equipment that may be 5% better than what everyone else has on. What is this equipment needed for? Lack-luster pvp? If it's not for pvp then you'll be using it on the next raid you'll go on. But really, with 20+ people raids, is that 5% better equipment really going to make or break the raid? Of course not.
Everyone has different tastes. not saying that endgame is the worst idea in the world - just mainly saying it's not for me.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, it sounds like you're tossing an insult at sandbox endgame...?
I'm really not sure how you read that as an insult. It is a compare and contrast excercise. Let's looks at WoW for example. When I get to 80, I begin the end game content which has a logical progression of Raid A, to Raid B, to Raid C, and so on. There are lore based reasons to participate in the raids so this is "end game" content. Once I've exhausted the content, I must wait for another patch before it can advance further.
Now, suppose I am playing EvE. I log in to my Caldari character and start training Standard Missles Level 1. By the end of the day I've trained Standard Missles to 4 and I can now do a bit more damage with those missles, but I'm still firing missles. Maybe I train a bit longer and get to 5 and can start training Standard Missles Specialization and use slightly better launchers and missles. Therefore, while I've progressed, I've not changed the activity I was doing and no lore has advanced. The content has also not changed or advanced as a result of my activity. Therefore, EvE could be said to not have an end game in the traditional sense. Add to that the idea that EvE is really about hte player empires and there is no "end" to the game and no waiting on a patch for that next piece of the story.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
You are confusing levels with progression. Yes, they all have progression. That is not being questioned. They are not, however, level-based games by any definition.
You also seem to be of the contention that people play games like UO and EVE to get to the skillpoint cap. While some may play that way, it is certainly not the design, intent or standard by which most people play those MMOs, especially since you can hit your skill cap in UO in a week and you will never hit it in EVE.
From that last post, I think the big hurdle here is that you're discussing a topic you really aren't familiar with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think we both play level-based MMOs the same way. WOW is the only level-based MMO where I ever had a max'd character. In all of them, WOW included, I found the middle range of levels more fun than any other range.
- there's more options for setting my 'challenge level'. I can go fight level 50 stuff at 40 or farm the crap out of level 25 content.
- i've got a good handle on what my character can do. Most of what my character will be able to do is acquired by the middle levels.
- I can easily progress to the middle level range, which means I can get to the content I enjoy relatively quickly.
- Content usually branches out more in the middle levels. MMOs usually start to present more complex content and branch content more in the middle levels.
- There are more non-guilded players in the middle levels than in the higher levels. This is important for people who usually level slow or play predominantly solo because it means more opportunity to group when they want to or need to. By 'endgame most players are entrenched in their guild/clan or are focused on some specific path.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If we are only discussing EQ/WOW variants then you would be correct, however there is more to MMOs than just that particular style. SWG, Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, and EVE Online are a few MMOs where there is no 'endgame'. Most skill-based MMOs do not have an 'endgame' as the gameplay is more than just a linear progression of killing stuff to level cap and then repeating the last dungeon over and over until an expansion arrives.
You seem pretty set in your opinion that every game is and must be an EQ/WOW variant in design and gameplay, so I have a feeling we're at a point where we should just agree to disagree.
All those games, save for puzzle pirates(I think), have levels of some type. Thus, they have a point at which you can no longer gain those levels, that, my good chum, is end game.
I didn't play EVE much, but I know it has levels, and SWG really does have levels in the most common form. Even Ultima Online has levels, and once you reach the end of them, you have reached end game.
Usually when people talk about endgame on this website, they refer to raids or pvp, both at which you will only be effective at max lvl.
In some games this isnt how it works. In SWG for example you can develop character traits that have nothing to do with your character's level or an 'endgame' that is waiting for you at lvl cap(pilot, city mayor, beast master, chronicles masteretc).
In a game as Guild Wars, you are max lvl very early on in the game. If there is one game where you can say that it starts at max lvl, its this one. Also you can PVP at max lvl right out of the box.
So two games that get rid of the unimaginative idea that games are always about lvling so you start an 'endgame'. There are more games like that, which wont follow that WoW mold.(Yes I know older MMO's did that before WoW, but I say WoW anyway, because everyone knows what you mean then
)
So basically you have games where you do the same thing the entire game, starting from the beginning. You could argue the endgame is the entire game, or its just the game. You still have progression, but what your doing never really changes. This is only really true for EvE as far as I know. Darkfall has more capped progression unless you get serious guild help.
Other games you have a journey and a destination. So really you have two different games built into one. If you like the journey great. But if you don't like the end of the journey you either re-roll or quit. If you don't like the journey, well then your SOL in this type of game. I think that these games cater to more people because it offers two types of game play, opposed to one.
I still applaud to the guy, who said "eldergame" instead of "endgame" years ago.
End Game?
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ was launched....and I've never made it to an End Game...I've never even gotten a character to max level...in any MMO. I "play" around too much.
Like others have said, "It's all about The Journey", and I'm still traveling.
That's an interesting point, Drez. In level-based MMOs, the game caters offers content for two groups. The people that enjoy leveling, who can always reroll and level new classes up, and the people who enjoy the raid/gear content at the end. With expansions, both groups get new content - more levels for the first and more gear.raids for the second.
Broader appeal through one path. Neat!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I love the term, 'the endgame is only the beggining.'
And, when a game has lived for long enough, that has the same model of level cap as WoW, it's inevitable to create a game catered around content for the people who reached the 'end', since it's so much more easier.
But, it fails to deliver in the terms where the player him/herself will find that the repetition of 'endgame' is only parallel to milking a dead cow. BORING BORING BORING GOD SO FUCKING BORING
Endgame is a easy plateau to reach that allows developers to rely on, and just pile shit upon shit upon shit to make it look a bit more fun and smelly.
But hey guys, it's still fun trying to look abit more awesome with those huge ass armors and whatnot, just keep on grinding.
keep it up
Endgame is, by far, the most ridiculous goal or concept that the MMO community has ever devised.
If the endgame is what you were playing to get to, what were you paying for prior to that? Were you actually paying for content you did not like or did not want in order to get to this nirvana of gaming? If so, why were people doing that and why was it consider acceptable?
Do people really want a single fixed thing to do when they reach max level? Do they really just want each expansion to be a few more levels and new gear/dungeons to go with those levels? If the game evolves in different directions with each expansion, doesn't that defeat the concept of endgame?
As if levels weren't a horrible enough flaw to introduce into massive persistent worlds, creating and near universally accepting the concept of endgame is infinitely worse.
See the violence inherent in the system!
Exactly.
Oh gawwwd, I am so sick of "those players." WTF, man...you're level one and asking about "endgame." It fucking boggles the mind.....
What happened to the ACTUAL game...you know....the journey of playing the game itself and not really WANTING it to END? That terminology is one of the worst words EVER to be coined into gaming, imo.
That entire rush to endgame mentality sucks all the fun out of games, if you ask me. Games in the MMO genre, were initially not INTENDED to ever HAVE an "endgame." Endgame is something you got to in single player games...games that you could "beat" or "win." The whole idea of "endgame" flies in the face of virtual life in a persistent world.
If there is one term I would like to ERASE from the minds of gamers today....this word would be it.
Do you know what "endgame" means to me? It's that part of an MMO where you completely run out of real content and have to start "grinding" something....whether it be grinding raid instances, or reputation, or crafting, or PvP, or "achievements," or WHATEVER. "Endgame" is the END of the ACTUAL game. It's the end of exploration, it's the end of discovery, it's the end of the game world FEELING like a world and becoming....a job.
Fuck "endgame."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
In some ways, the design of a game can really aid in enjoying the journey.I don't play much of any one MMO - an hour or two here or there for each - but I've played a good bit of DDO this past week. I haven't the slightest clue what level I am or what the level cap is. All I know id that I have been thoroughly engrossed in going through a range of adventures both by myself and with others that I happened to meet standing about town.
Maybe it's because DDO doesn't have that big number in the upper corner of the screen reminding you of the size of your ePeen compared to others. Maybe it's because the rewards are doled out at the end of the campaign and not as incremental advancements during the adventure. Maybe it's the efforts Turbine has taken to present it as a story and narrative where you actively solve puzzles and uncover information to move forward, rather than an obviated gather/frag quota with an arrow that takes you straight to the completion point.
Whatever the case may be, for me at least, DDO seems to focus more on the journey than the end. As Girlgeek mentioned, DDO is a game where I look forward to completing each campaign, but i am in now way rushing or anxious to reach the 'end' of DDO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's the definition I personally prefer.
Lets' not forget that there could be many 'endgames' in a single MMO. SWG had multiple professions and playstyles but each of them had their own endgame and the major problem with the game was that you hit them way too early and they had very little to do. EVE also has multiple endgames and its best feature is that you can easily try a different path if the one you are on 'endgames' on you.
See the violence inherent in the system!
Endgame is, by far, the most ridiculous goal or concept that the MMO community has ever devised.
If the endgame is what you were playing to get to, what were you paying for prior to that?
The journey. The road to level cap is also very important. End-game is sort of like a reward for finally you have reach a cap.
From than on (till the next x-pac, etc) you are able to tackle on more epic quest line.
Problem with end-game now its either raid-or-die, or just pure pvp-till-numb.
That's just no other options ( in a level base mmo ) for players.
Looking at the budget and man-power that Blizz have, i just say that they are lazy to think of new ways...
And what do you do in Non-Lvl based MMOs that you couldnt do in ENDGAME for lvl based MMOs?
Problem is endgame is actually very ill defined and subjective.
Endgame however to many is the hard raid bosses.However ,it could just mean what do you do when you hit a level cap or in case of games like old SWG or UO skill cap.
But really i doubt there is a particular definition of mmorpg endgame.
Oh gawwwd, I am so sick of "those players." WTF, man...you're level one and asking about "endgame." It fucking boggles the mind.....
What happened to the ACTUAL game...you know....the journey of playing the game itself and not really WANTING it to END? That terminology is one of the worst words EVER to be coined into gaming, imo.
That entire rush to endgame mentality sucks all the fun out of games, if you ask me. Games in the MMO genre, were initially not INTENDED to ever HAVE an "endgame." Endgame is something you got to in single player games...games that you could "beat" or "win." The whole idea of "endgame" flies in the face of virtual life in a persistent world.
If there is one term I would like to ERASE from the minds of gamers today....this word would be it.
Do you know what "endgame" means to me? It's that part of an MMO where you completely run out of real content and have to start "grinding" something....whether it be grinding raid instances, or reputation, or crafting, or PvP, or "achievements," or WHATEVER. "Endgame" is the END of the ACTUAL game. It's the end of exploration, it's the end of discovery, it's the end of the game world FEELING like a world and becoming....a job.
Fuck "endgame."
Thats because Lvling is nothing but a tutorial for End Game. It prepares you for End Game. Take WoW for example. In Vanilla WoW, lvling was very slow. So by time you hit max lvl, you knew how to play your class (unless it was brought or something). You knew how to play as a Team and interact with other classes in mutiplayer.
All of this was to ge players ready for the real game which is End Game. Raiding and 40v40 PvP battles were the End Game. Which was alot harder then lvling. Levels only got you ready for the learning curve.
Endgame? This is an MMORPG.. which means THERE IS NO DAMN ENDGAME.. so please stop using this term for Massive Multiplayer, living world styled, online games.. there is no endgame.. if you want endgame.. go play a single player pc or console game...
/end rant
MMORPG doesn't mean "No endgame". MMORPG's with "endgame" are not inferior to those without, actually the opposite. Of course this is only a matter of opinion, which makes the point even more valid. You're not one to tell us what MMORPG is or isn't.