One of the items I did this too for example was Ochido's Kote, I drove the price of them up 200k in the span of 3 days because I kept every single one avail bought out. This is a good example of a single player majorly affecting an entire market. My point? If I was doing it, There was definitally others doing it as well. I know of a few other players who did the same thing as me. I constantly got tells from other players accusing me of gil selling, yet I had never done so and had all gil on my char, It was merely how I enjoyed the game. Now in this example you have the same problem described above with coin selling, yet I was using a perfectly legitimate system in game to do so. What is the difference? As far as how it affects the overall game, there is no difference, outside Player perception.
The difference is scope. The farmer who sells items for in game coin and recycles that coin to a large number of other players via eBay or IGE has a a huge cascading impact on the entire enconomy, not just one item or resource that someone wants to control to roleplay a monopolist (which, by the way, is fine by me if it is something one eljoys). You create an army of players with high amounts of cash and of course this impacts demand and drives prices up. If it were not for IGE and eBay you simply would not have the same number of players with that much in-game cash, and that fact in itself clearly impacts demand which impacts prices. And therefore it impacts everyone. So, I really disagree that they don't have more of an impact than the person roleplaying a monopolist ... the impact comes from multiplying the number of people with lots of cash, and of course that impacts the economy.
Thanks for the points Dekoth. Do I get a chufty badge too?
I didn't say extra mobs spawned. There is no need for extra mobs, there is already more mobs than what can be killed anyway. So, any points about set spawn times are irelevant.
Originally posted by Eraserhead Thanks for the points Dekoth. Do I get a chufty badge too? I didn't say extra mobs spawned. There is no need for extra mobs, there is already more mobs than what can be killed anyway. So, any points about set spawn times are irelevant.
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
Originally posted by Eraserhead Thanks for the points Dekoth. Do I get a chufty badge too? I didn't say extra mobs spawned. There is no need for extra mobs, there is already more mobs than what can be killed anyway. So, any points about set spawn times are irelevant.
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
A chufty badge is a prize you give to little kids for being clever.
As for my posts, you've completely missed the point even though it's all in there. I suggest you ask me not to repeat it but you instead go back and read it again.
Originally posted by stur I think it's great that you guys are supporting the secondary market. A great interview is on gamespy on the subject, here is a link http://www.gamespy.com/articles/584/584932p1.html
Many of the players involved in selling ingame money, and especially items, will have good knowledge about their game. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them are active/very active in promoting the game, in various ways. Cause more players = better business, out-of-game and ingame, for these sellers. And it means more/new subscriptions for the game devs, so they're probably fine with it.
Originally posted by Eraserhead Thanks for the points Dekoth. Do I get a chufty badge too? I didn't say extra mobs spawned. There is no need for extra mobs, there is already more mobs than what can be killed anyway. So, any points about set spawn times are irelevant.
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
A chufty badge is a prize you give to little kids for being clever.
As for my posts, you've completely missed the point even though it's all in there. I suggest you ask me not to repeat it but you instead go back and read it again.
My apologies then for not being caught up on the current teenage lingo, I have not been in school for a number of years I am afraid.
I read your post's, and neither of them addressed any point I did not already make. The only point you made was that you assumed my example was stating that the npcs dropped max loot every time when in fact it did not. The developers can in fact plan on an npc or groups of npcs being farmed 24/7 as its just as possible for a dedicated group of non botters to do so. So for the developers to not take the max drop rate on a consistant spawn/death basis over an extended period of time would be a grevious oversight on their part. Npcs will not drop their max loot every time and this is one of the many checks and balances that keeps the overall world economy in balance, If an npc dropped max every single time you know or should know as well as I that there would be a guild rotating people out 24/7 farming it. The reason why its undeniable that the developers assumed and planned for a particular npc or group of npcs being killed every single time they pop, is that they did in fact implement variable loot tables. So they balanced the overall world econ off of the absolute Max that can be aquired off an npc, and with the variable loot in place this assures this will never happen and thus no matter how much a given npc is farmed, It will drop at the exact same rate that the developers planned, no exceptions. Other then that, if its not activly farmed then the drop rate will be less then the max, which of course has no negative impact on the econ.
You do not even have to have taken advanced economics to figure this out, just the basics and all this is painfully obvious. Supply vs Demand, Supply high demand low = price low. Supply low demand high = price high. to add another variable to an ingame market, If a supply is low but the demand is high, then players are going to seek out how to aquire said item and more agressively camp it in an effort to cash in like everyone else. So wether its Players, Bots, or Farmers selling for cash the end result is the same as no more money enters the econ then was designed, the only thing that is affected is the player distribution of the coin/items, basically the gap between the rich players and poor players gets wider. That however does not impact the overall econ.
Simple example;
Mobx is set to drop its rare loot 5% of the time. If its being killed everysingle time it spawns, it will still only drop 5% of the time, however if its being killed less, then while its drop rate is 5% it will appear to be less because its not dieing as often. point being they plan for the max that its going to die and drop and balance off that.
Originally posted by Dekoth My apologies then for not being caught up on the current teenage lingo, I have not been in school for a number of years I am afraid.
I read your post's, and neither of them addressed any point I did not already make. The only point you made was that you assumed my example was stating that the npcs dropped max loot every time when in fact it did not. The developers can in fact plan on an npc or groups of npcs being farmed 24/7 as its just as possible for a dedicated group of non botters to do so. So for the developers to not take the max drop rate on a consistant spawn/death basis over an extended period of time would be a grevious oversight on their part. Npcs will not drop their max loot every time and this is one of the many checks and balances that keeps the overall world economy in balance, If an npc dropped max every single time you know or should know as well as I that there would be a guild rotating people out 24/7 farming it. The reason why its undeniable that the developers assumed and planned for a particular npc or group of npcs being killed every single time they pop, is that they did in fact implement variable loot tables. So they balanced the overall world econ off of the absolute Max that can be aquired off an npc, and with the variable loot in place this assures this will never happen and thus no matter how much a given npc is farmed, It will drop at the exact same rate that the developers planned, no exceptions. Other then that, if its not activly farmed then the drop rate will be less then the max, which of course has no negative impact on the econ. You do not even have to have taken advanced economics to figure this out, just the basics and all this is painfully obvious. Supply vs Demand, Supply high demand low = price low. Supply low demand high = price high. to add another variable to an ingame market, If a supply is low but the demand is high, then players are going to seek out how to aquire said item and more agressively camp it in an effort to cash in like everyone else. So wether its Players, Bots, or Farmers selling for cash the end result is the same as no more money enters the econ then was designed, the only thing that is affected is the player distribution of the coin/items, basically the gap between the rich players and poor players gets wider. That however does not impact the overall econ. Simple example; Mobx is set to drop its rare loot 5% of the time. If its being killed everysingle time it spawns, it will still only drop 5% of the time, however if its being killed less, then while its drop rate is 5% it will appear to be less because its not dieing as often. point being they plan for the max that its going to die and drop and balance off that.
They don't plan on one small group of people farming the NPC to collect that one rare drop item so much they gain a stranglehold on the market for that item. That is not the point of the game. It is what ruins the game. How is any legitimate paying player supposed to gain the item other than buying it from the small group of the farmers? That is not what the game was designed to do. Any dev that would design a game to be farmed like that would be out of a job faster than... well anything.
And you are partially correct with supply and demand. You have to remember one main point though. When a small core group of people control the flow of that good they control the price of it. If they don't think they are making enough money, they cut back the flow and the prices soar. That is not part of a healthy in-game economy. You honestly can't sit there and say that the devs had that in mind when they made the game. Anyone with an IQ of.... ohhh... say above 10 could comprehend that fact.
No dev plans on one certain NPC being farmed 24/7 by the SAME people. That suggestion goes beyond ludicrous. They don't plan on a bunch of chars named "Aaaaa" "Bbbbb" and on to sit there and farm him over and over, not allowing anyone else to even come remotely close to being able to do it themselves. Anyone who suggests that is either "special" or really really slow on the intake.
And your example is about the dumbest example you could have given in relation to your economic argument. Sure it may only drop 5% of the time. But if the same group is sitting there 24/7 to get the drops, and they are strong enough and have enough of them that no one else can kill him, how does that not affect the economy? That is putting all the important and needed goods into one small groups hands. And that is NOT what was intended. Look at anything in real life if you have to... Anything that was/is ever controlled by a small core group of people, has their price for goods way out of whack with reality. Because you need it, you have to pay for it. That is not the sign of a healthy economy.
Oh, and by the way... A 5% drop rate doesn't mean it drops the item 5% of the times it dies. It means each time it dies, it has a 5% chance of dropping that item. For example, if a NPC dies 100 times, it doesn't drop the item 5 times. Rather it has a 5% chance to drop the item EACH time it dies. Every time you kill it, you have a 5% chance it is going to drop the item.
They don't plan on one small group of people farming the NPC to collect that one rare drop item so much they gain a stranglehold on the market for that item. That is not the point of the game. It is what ruins the game. How is any legitimate paying player supposed to gain the item other than buying it from the small group of the farmers? That is not what the game was designed to do. Any dev that would design a game to be farmed like that would be out of a job faster than... well anything. And you are partially correct with supply and demand. You have to remember one main point though. When a small core group of people control the flow of that good they control the price of it. If they don't think they are making enough money, they cut back the flow and the prices soar. That is not part of a healthy in-game economy. You honestly can't sit there and say that the devs had that in mind when they made the game. Anyone with an IQ of.... ohhh... say above 10 could comprehend that fact. No dev plans on one certain NPC being farmed 24/7 by the SAME people. That suggestion goes beyond ludicrous. They don't plan on a bunch of chars named "Aaaaa" "Bbbbb" and on to sit there and farm him over and over, not allowing anyone else to even come remotely close to being able to do it themselves. Anyone who suggests that is either "special" or really really slow on the intake. And your example is about the dumbest example you could have given in relation to your economic argument. Sure it may only drop 5% of the time. But if the same group is sitting there 24/7 to get the drops, and they are strong enough and have enough of them that no one else can kill him, how does that not affect the economy? That is putting all the important and needed goods into one small groups hands. And that is NOT what was intended. Look at anything in real life if you have to... Anything that was/is ever controlled by a small core group of people, has their price for goods way out of whack with reality. Because you need it, you have to pay for it. That is not the sign of a healthy economy. Oh, and by the way... A 5% drop rate doesn't mean it drops the item 5% of the times it dies. It means each time it dies, it has a 5% chance of dropping that item. For example, if a NPC dies 100 times, it doesn't drop the item 5 times. Rather it has a 5% chance to drop the item EACH time it dies. Every time you kill it, you have a 5% chance it is going to drop the item.
If they Do not plan for a small group farming a particular item, area, group of npcs then they made a tragic flaw in the game design. This type of player behavior happens every day on every mmorpg. EQ is the easiest example, Entire guilds monopolize certain zones and npcs, most of the items fortunatlly are non tradeable and have little to no impact, however a number of items are and these guilds have exclusivity to them. Even some of the larger guilds 80+ members if you think about it compared to the server population of 5000+ is a very small group of people. Now thus far your entire argument is based around bots, I am not simply talking about botters here I am talking about players in general. Get off the bot subject they are such a small percentage of players they are insignificant. It does not matter if an npc is monopolized by a group of botters, or a guild farming the end result is exactlly the same. I understand that people who bot offend your morality, I am not condoning it, I am simply trying to get you to realize that People who Farm in game to control an item in game, People who bot and people who sell for money on ebay, the end result of their actions is exactlly the same. I was in the #2 guild on my server when I played EQ, trust me I know just how long a group of people can monopolize a spawn/zone or items. I know my guild did it sometimes for months on end. While we were not selling on ebay or anything it was to equip our guild or gain money, the end result was no different.
Point is the behavior exists in every mmorpg, I am using EQ as my primary example as its the most well known. The behavior is not limited to those who bot, or those selling money on ebay. Guilds do it, individual players do it, all for personal gain in game. So the reality of the matter is this, what is the Defining difference? Those who do it for personal gain in RL, vs Those who do it for personal gain in game. That however is not the argument, its how does this impact the overall economy? Simple It doesnt. Because the behavior is not limited to any particular group of players, and players have been exibiting this behavior since mmorpgs first hit the market, any developer that would not plan for a small group monopolizing something is stupid. It happens, its a fact. You cannot deny that it happens all you have to do it look at any given server, any given game and find the top guild on the server. You are guaranteed to find out they are monopolizing one aspect of the game, it afterall is why they are the top guild.
Again my beliefs,
I am not a fan of botters, honestly I do find it cheapening to the game experience. However I have yet to see any given botter or group of botters affect my gameplay experience or the overall economy significantlly, thus I pretty much ignore them.
Exploiters, this group can and does affect every aspect of the game negatively. This is how things unintended by the developers end up in game. This group is no better then crackers and should have their testicles removed to prevent them from contaminating the rest of the gene pool.
Ebayers, to each their own I say. If they want to sell their coin/items for cash the way I see it, there is less overall impact on the econ as the coin is circulating outside the normal channels. I personally do not buy/sell coin however I see no reason not to sell my account when I am done with it. 1. I am not stupid enough to turn down several hundred dollars that I can invest into my PC costing me less to keep up with current tech, 2. Im not going to play anymore and usually I have 3+ years invested in a char it imo is a crying shame to simply delete it when someone else could put it to good use.
Originally posted by Dekoth If they Do not plan for a small group farming a particular item, area, group of npcs then they made a tragic flaw in the game design. This type of player behavior happens every day on every mmorpg. EQ is the easiest example, Entire guilds monopolize certain zones and npcs, most of the items fortunatlly are non tradeable and have little to no impact, however a number of items are and these guilds have exclusivity to them. Even some of the larger guilds 80+ members if you think about it compared to the server population of 5000+ is a very small group of people. Now thus far your entire argument is based around bots, I am not simply talking about botters here I am talking about players in general. Get off the bot subject they are such a small percentage of players they are insignificant. It does not matter if an npc is monopolized by a group of botters, or a guild farming the end result is exactlly the same. I understand that people who bot offend your morality, I am not condoning it, I am simply trying to get you to realize that People who Farm in game to control an item in game, People who bot and people who sell for money on ebay, the end result of their actions is exactlly the same. I was in the #2 guild on my server when I played EQ, trust me I know just how long a group of people can monopolize a spawn/zone or items. I know my guild did it sometimes for months on end. While we were not selling on ebay or anything it was to equip our guild or gain money, the end result was no different. Point is the behavior exists in every mmorpg, I am using EQ as my primary example as its the most well known. The behavior is not limited to those who bot, or those selling money on ebay. Guilds do it, individual players do it, all for personal gain in game. So the reality of the matter is this, what is the Defining difference? Those who do it for personal gain in RL, vs Those who do it for personal gain in game. That however is not the argument, its how does this impact the overall economy? Simple It doesnt. Because the behavior is not limited to any particular group of players, and players have been exibiting this behavior since mmorpgs first hit the market, any developer that would not plan for a small group monopolizing something is stupid. It happens, its a fact. You cannot deny that it happens all you have to do it look at any given server, any given game and find the top guild on the server. You are guaranteed to find out they are monopolizing one aspect of the game, it afterall is why they are the top guild. Again my beliefs, I am not a fan of botters, honestly I do find it cheapening to the game experience. However I have yet to see any given botter or group of botters affect my gameplay experience or the overall economy significantlly, thus I pretty much ignore them. Exploiters, this group can and does affect every aspect of the game negatively. This is how things unintended by the developers end up in game. This group is no better then crackers and should have their testicles removed to prevent them from contaminating the rest of the gene pool. Ebayers, to each their own I say. If they want to sell their coin/items for cash the way I see it, there is less overall impact on the econ as the coin is circulating outside the normal channels. I personally do not buy/sell coin however I see no reason not to sell my account when I am done with it. 1. I am not stupid enough to turn down several hundred dollars that I can invest into my PC costing me less to keep up with current tech, 2. Im not going to play anymore and usually I have 3+ years invested in a char it imo is a crying shame to simply delete it when someone else could put it to good use.
You are right, bots are a small percentage. But that small percentage farming the rare-drop NPCs is a major factor in the fun of the game. After all you can't get to the items, as you don't stand a chance. That affects my gameplay. That also means I have to hunt and hunt like mad, or buy cash with real money, so I can afford to get the item. That again affects my gameplay. Then I have to bid against 30 other people also wanting the item, which will increase the cost to me again.
People monopolizing a large portion of the economy certainly takes the fun out of a game. Even though it is done, doesn't make it right or fair for every other user. It ruins the game quite frankly. I've done quests that have taken an hour or more, just to get to the end and find it camped and no way I can even get remotely close to getting that item. That certainly affects me. That takes the fun out of the game. How do you know what areas are camped if you are a newer player? You take the time to do the quest and can't get anything for it, except having to fork over and buy it. That isn't fair on anyone.
And it sure does affect the economy. If 5 people control the flow of one item, they will make an auction for it. If that item sells for 1,000,000 in-game currency, all other items become worth at least that much. After all why sell for less if people will pay it? So they hold another auction. This time starting price is around 1,000,000. It ends up selling for 1.2 million. Now the next time they sell it, they'll ask for 1.2 million. And because of the extremely limited supply, with a high demand the price keeps going up. It's part of every economy, real and game-wise. After all, if people will pay it, why not charge it?
Sure they may be a top guild, but what chance does everyone else have at competing? or even getting an item they are farming? Even if it is human NPC camping and not bots, it still ruins the fun of the game, as you still can't get the item you just spent hours questing for.
Regardless of the reasons, performing some of those actions is still a violation of the ToS or CoC. It's voluntary to accept, and if you don't like their rules, don't play the game. Let the honest players that want to enjoy the game and be able to do quests and actually get the quest items (from doing quest) play the game. People are all about instant gratification nowadays. No one wants to put the time in to earn their level/rank/armor etc. I remember when EQ1 and AC first came out. Buying an item (out of game) was unheard of.... A lot of monarchies in AC actually frowned on it. Just because people can get away with something, doesn't make it right.
You are right, bots are a small percentage. But that small percentage farming the rare-drop NPCs is a major factor in the fun of the game. After all you can't get to the items, as you don't stand a chance. That affects my gameplay. That also means I have to hunt and hunt like mad, or buy cash with real money, so I can afford to get the item. That again affects my gameplay. Then I have to bid against 30 other people also wanting the item, which will increase the cost to me again.
People monopolizing a large portion of the economy certainly takes the fun out of a game. Even though it is done, doesn't make it right or fair for every other user. It ruins the game quite frankly. I've done quests that have taken an hour or more, just to get to the end and find it camped and no way I can even get remotely close to getting that item. That certainly affects me. That takes the fun out of the game. How do you know what areas are camped if you are a newer player? You take the time to do the quest and can't get anything for it, except having to fork over and buy it. That isn't fair on anyone.
And it sure does affect the economy. If 5 people control the flow of one item, they will make an auction for it. If that item sells for 1,000,000 in-game currency, all other items become worth at least that much. After all why sell for less if people will pay it? So they hold another auction. This time starting price is around 1,000,000. It ends up selling for 1.2 million. Now the next time they sell it, they'll ask for 1.2 million. And because of the extremely limited supply, with a high demand the price keeps going up. It's part of every economy, real and game-wise. After all, if people will pay it, why not charge it?
Sure they may be a top guild, but what chance does everyone else have at competing? or even getting an item they are farming? Even if it is human NPC camping and not bots, it still ruins the fun of the game, as you still can't get the item you just spent hours questing for.
Regardless of the reasons, performing some of those actions is still a violation of the ToS or CoC. It's voluntary to accept, and if you don't like their rules, don't play the game. Let the honest players that want to enjoy the game and be able to do quests and actually get the quest items (from doing quest) play the game. People are all about instant gratification nowadays. No one wants to put the time in to earn their level/rank/armor etc. I remember when EQ1 and AC first came out. Buying an item (out of game) was unheard of.... A lot of monarchies in AC actually frowned on it. Just because people can get away with something, doesn't make it right.
Precisely, It does Affect your personal fun That I agree with. however again you made reference only to bots, How about players like myself to buyout entire parts of a market and raise prices, Same effect except I am using a fully legitimate ingame mechanic to do so. End result same. Fortunatlly players who like to gamble and invest like me are few and far beteween, however point remains the same.
People, bots, guild monopolizing, yes it takes the fun out. We are in full agreement here and I think I understand your major gripe here. Does it ruin gameplay? to the user whos being blocked, it most certaintly does. However If its a legitimate group using a tactic such as farming, while it is not fair they are fully within their right to do so in game. In this case you mention a quest completion, This burden falls squarely on the shoulders of the Developers. Its long recognized that players as a whole ditest extremely rare npcs/items required for a quest progression, however this is a intentional thing built into games by the Devs to keep people playing. Complain as much as we all do, in the end we will invest the time which equals more money for them.
Now you are correct in the manner it affects the economy. Yes someone monopolizing has free reign to raise prices, however realize this, At some point the blame lays on the players who pay it. As an investor type player here I will be blunt about it. Ill raise the price until people quit buying it. The way I see it if they are stupid enough to pay 10x the price of what something is really worth, then it serves them right. Because a player like myself Will come back down on the price if people wont buy it. Afterall I do not want to sit on an item forever. Farmers for Ebay and such affect it no differently, yes they can drive the price up with a monopoly however remember this. Most of them have far more initiative to get rid of an item then I do, especially if its an item that you can only have a limited number of before getting more. to them Time is money, in RL. So honestly they are going to have far less patience as a whole to sit on an item trying to raise the price then a player like myself. Case and point when I was buying up items in ffxi, I am fairly certain most of the players I bought from were botters. I never asked never cared to. I bought the items I was after by coming where they were camping and offering them cash on the spot most often substantially less then what I sold for so they could continue camping. Initiative is what it boiled down to. I was willing to keep my AH full and have a backlog of items that I sometimes sat on for days at a time or longer, while they wanted to get rid of it now. But the simple fact was this, I was a legitimate player, buying items from players I "Assumed" were camping an item legit and I was reselling them at a higher price because people were willing to pay it.
Referring to your forth paragraph, again refer to my second in this post. Blame the devs for that. That is poor foresight on how the game would be played. Fair is a relative term, This is a game there are two types of people in it. Those who play to enjoy the game, and those who play to be at the top, those personality types are simply going to clash no matter how you look at it. Ever wonder why top guilds are the way they are? Its simple, they have the Drive and the means to be there and will not let anyone stand in their way. IS it fair? most of the time no, but then neither is RL. This is why MMORPGs have a disclaimer stating that online experience may vary, as they realize they cannot control the bahavior of their player base.
Last paragraph, the only time they are violating the TOS is if they are botting, using third party software of any type, or selling coin on ebay etc. Yes they are in fact violating the TOS I never argued that. However My entire point this thread was to point out that they outside the fun factor do not affect the game in any manner the devs did not intend that a normal player using legit methods cannot affect themselves. The argument of Coin sellers destroy the econ is a moot argument and really not an argument at all as the facts are undeniable they do not. Now the argument that they are breaking the TOS and Infringing upon others right to have fun is In fact also undeniable in that they do.
Originally posted by Dekoth Precisely, It does Affect your personal fun That I agree with. however again you made reference only to bots, How about players like myself to buyout entire parts of a market and raise prices, Same effect except I am using a fully legitimate ingame mechanic to do so. End result same. Fortunatlly players who like to gamble and invest like me are few and far beteween, however point remains the same. People, bots, guild monopolizing, yes it takes the fun out. We are in full agreement here and I think I understand your major gripe here. Does it ruin gameplay? to the user whos being blocked, it most certaintly does. However If its a legitimate group using a tactic such as farming, while it is not fair they are fully within their right to do so in game. In this case you mention a quest completion, This burden falls squarely on the shoulders of the Developers. Its long recognized that players as a whole ditest extremely rare npcs/items required for a quest progression, however this is a intentional thing built into games by the Devs to keep people playing. Complain as much as we all do, in the end we will invest the time which equals more money for them. Now you are correct in the manner it affects the economy. Yes someone monopolizing has free reign to raise prices, however realize this, At some point the blame lays on the players who pay it. As an investor type player here I will be blunt about it. Ill raise the price until people quit buying it. The way I see it if they are stupid enough to pay 10x the price of what something is really worth, then it serves them right. Because a player like myself Will come back down on the price if people wont buy it. Afterall I do not want to sit on an item forever. Farmers for Ebay and such affect it no differently, yes they can drive the price up with a monopoly however remember this. Most of them have far more initiative to get rid of an item then I do, especially if its an item that you can only have a limited number of before getting more. to them Time is money, in RL. So honestly they are going to have far less patience as a whole to sit on an item trying to raise the price then a player like myself. Case and point when I was buying up items in ffxi, I am fairly certain most of the players I bought from were botters. I never asked never cared to. I bought the items I was after by coming where they were camping and offering them cash on the spot most often substantially less then what I sold for so they could continue camping. Initiative is what it boiled down to. I was willing to keep my AH full and have a backlog of items that I sometimes sat on for days at a time or longer, while they wanted to get rid of it now. But the simple fact was this, I was a legitimate player, buying items from players I "Assumed" were camping an item legit and I was reselling them at a higher price because people were willing to pay it. Referring to your forth paragraph, again refer to my second in this post. Blame the devs for that. That is poor foresight on how the game would be played. Fair is a relative term, This is a game there are two types of people in it. Those who play to enjoy the game, and those who play to be at the top, those personality types are simply going to clash no matter how you look at it. Ever wonder why top guilds are the way they are? Its simple, they have the Drive and the means to be there and will not let anyone stand in their way. IS it fair? most of the time no, but then neither is RL. This is why MMORPGs have a disclaimer stating that online experience may vary, as they realize they cannot control the bahavior of their player base.
Last paragraph, the only time they are violating the TOS is if they are botting, using third party software of any type, or selling coin on ebay etc. Yes they are in fact violating the TOS I never argued that. However My entire point this thread was to point out that they outside the fun factor do not affect the game in any manner the devs did not intend that a normal player using legit methods cannot affect themselves. The argument of Coin sellers destroy the econ is a moot argument and really not an argument at all as the facts are undeniable they do not. Now the argument that they are breaking the TOS and Infringing upon others right to have fun is In fact also undeniable in that they do.
My main gripe, as you have more or less gotten is that it ruins my fun and enjoyment. Why should they be allowed to ruin my fun and enjoyment of something I am paying for? There are ways to enforce and manage bots, albeit not as good as it could be. 24/7 farming by a small group of people should not be allowed. It is not really their fault (although they are choosing to screw everyone else over). It's more the players who drive the market, and the devs for not trying to control it. How they might, I don't know, but if I'm paying good money for a game, I want to be able to actually complete quests. I am paying $12 US (which is about 15 Canadian) per month to not even be able to do a lot of the content? As a paying customer how is that fair?
And as for real players buying and re-selling, that's called commerce. I don't have a problem with that. People can still do the quest even if you bought a few and resold them. I don't always have time to do the necessary quest to get the item and have bought before. And you are exactly right that the players are to blame. I'm not sure if it was in this post or before (they are all starting to run together lately) but I have mentioned that I have found alot of gamers don't actually want to earn their level/armor/rank/etc. The players are the main reason that they are around to begin with. They just want to go out and buy whatever they need so they can run around bragging about how uber and leet (never can remember the alphanumeric version of those... 7ee1 or something).
That's why a game like GW has me excited. Their instanced quests prevent just that. And they have eliminated a large portion of re-selling items because it's customized by your character. Once you outgrow something you recycle it back to it's base components or just dump it. Sure you can buy/sell the base components (ie hide, bone etc) but no one can camp your quest items, or steal your kills. They are taking the most proactive approach to make a game actually fun and playable that I have seen from any company so far.
This is not something that a standard game currently on the market can fix anytime soon or easily. It will take the game being designed from the beginning (such as GW) to implement what is needed for such control/monitoring. I am personally looking forward to GW, as it has eliminated almost every major problem with MMOGs (ie ganking, grinding, farming, camping, kill stealing etc etc).
Originally posted by cooldevo That's why a game like GW has me excited. Their instanced quests prevent just that. And they have eliminated a large portion of re-selling items because it's customized by your character. Once you outgrow something you recycle it back to it's base components or just dump it. Sure you can buy/sell the base components (ie hide, bone etc) but no one can camp your quest items, or steal your kills.
Don't be so naive. If there are items that are tradable that are of value to the community then those items can be farmed and sold for hard currency.
Bartering is deeply embedded in human nature. You can choose not to participate, you can even boycott and protest, but you will be wholly unsuccessful in stopping it.
That's why a game like GW has me excited. Their instanced quests prevent just that. And they have eliminated a large portion of re-selling items because it's customized by your character. Once you outgrow something you recycle it back to it's base components or just dump it. Sure you can buy/sell the base components (ie hide, bone etc) but no one can camp your quest items, or steal your kills.
Don't be so naive. If there are items that are tradable that are of value to the community then those items can be farmed and sold for hard currency.
Bartering is deeply embedded in human nature. You can choose not to participate, you can even boycott and protest, but you will be wholly unsuccessful in stopping it.
It's true. The will to cheat will never be removed from some people. It doesn't mean people should sit and accept it though.
I have zero respect for hackers and I have even less respect for an IGE user. At least a hack user has the balls to risk his account to artificially boost his stats. Artificially boosting your stats with real cash does not make you any more legit. Your money doesn't buy you legitimacy. The people you are paying are breaking the TOS.
Hack users and IGE users are all trying to get a leap on the competition though means other than normal gameplay. Such activity is generally known as cheating.
Comments
The difference is scope. The farmer who sells items for in game coin and recycles that coin to a large number of other players via eBay or IGE has a a huge cascading impact on the entire enconomy, not just one item or resource that someone wants to control to roleplay a monopolist (which, by the way, is fine by me if it is something one eljoys). You create an army of players with high amounts of cash and of course this impacts demand and drives prices up. If it were not for IGE and eBay you simply would not have the same number of players with that much in-game cash, and that fact in itself clearly impacts demand which impacts prices. And therefore it impacts everyone. So, I really disagree that they don't have more of an impact than the person roleplaying a monopolist ... the impact comes from multiplying the number of people with lots of cash, and of course that impacts the economy.
Thanks for the points Dekoth. Do I get a chufty badge too?
I didn't say extra mobs spawned. There is no need for extra mobs, there is already more mobs than what can be killed anyway. So, any points about set spawn times are irelevant.
MMORPG
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
A chufty badge is a prize you give to little kids for being clever.
As for my posts, you've completely missed the point even though it's all in there. I suggest you ask me not to repeat it but you instead go back and read it again.
MMORPG
Many of the players involved in selling ingame money, and especially items, will have good knowledge about their game. It wouldn't surprise me if some of them are active/very active in promoting the game, in various ways. Cause more players = better business, out-of-game and ingame, for these sellers. And it means more/new subscriptions for the game devs, so they're probably fine with it.
Not entirely certain what a chufty badge is so whatever.
too many mobs to kill?
In which game do you refer? I can name half a dozen games and quite a few areas where there are not too many mobs to kill its a matter of player capacity. Actually that last post made utterly no sense at all, explain.
A chufty badge is a prize you give to little kids for being clever.
As for my posts, you've completely missed the point even though it's all in there. I suggest you ask me not to repeat it but you instead go back and read it again.
My apologies then for not being caught up on the current teenage lingo, I have not been in school for a number of years I am afraid.
I read your post's, and neither of them addressed any point I did not already make. The only point you made was that you assumed my example was stating that the npcs dropped max loot every time when in fact it did not. The developers can in fact plan on an npc or groups of npcs being farmed 24/7 as its just as possible for a dedicated group of non botters to do so. So for the developers to not take the max drop rate on a consistant spawn/death basis over an extended period of time would be a grevious oversight on their part. Npcs will not drop their max loot every time and this is one of the many checks and balances that keeps the overall world economy in balance, If an npc dropped max every single time you know or should know as well as I that there would be a guild rotating people out 24/7 farming it. The reason why its undeniable that the developers assumed and planned for a particular npc or group of npcs being killed every single time they pop, is that they did in fact implement variable loot tables. So they balanced the overall world econ off of the absolute Max that can be aquired off an npc, and with the variable loot in place this assures this will never happen and thus no matter how much a given npc is farmed, It will drop at the exact same rate that the developers planned, no exceptions. Other then that, if its not activly farmed then the drop rate will be less then the max, which of course has no negative impact on the econ.
You do not even have to have taken advanced economics to figure this out, just the basics and all this is painfully obvious. Supply vs Demand, Supply high demand low = price low. Supply low demand high = price high. to add another variable to an ingame market, If a supply is low but the demand is high, then players are going to seek out how to aquire said item and more agressively camp it in an effort to cash in like everyone else. So wether its Players, Bots, or Farmers selling for cash the end result is the same as no more money enters the econ then was designed, the only thing that is affected is the player distribution of the coin/items, basically the gap between the rich players and poor players gets wider. That however does not impact the overall econ.
Simple example;
Mobx is set to drop its rare loot 5% of the time. If its being killed everysingle time it spawns, it will still only drop 5% of the time, however if its being killed less, then while its drop rate is 5% it will appear to be less because its not dieing as often. point being they plan for the max that its going to die and drop and balance off that.
They don't plan on one small group of people farming the NPC to collect that one rare drop item so much they gain a stranglehold on the market for that item. That is not the point of the game. It is what ruins the game. How is any legitimate paying player supposed to gain the item other than buying it from the small group of the farmers? That is not what the game was designed to do. Any dev that would design a game to be farmed like that would be out of a job faster than... well anything.
And you are partially correct with supply and demand. You have to remember one main point though. When a small core group of people control the flow of that good they control the price of it. If they don't think they are making enough money, they cut back the flow and the prices soar. That is not part of a healthy in-game economy. You honestly can't sit there and say that the devs had that in mind when they made the game. Anyone with an IQ of.... ohhh... say above 10 could comprehend that fact.
No dev plans on one certain NPC being farmed 24/7 by the SAME people. That suggestion goes beyond ludicrous. They don't plan on a bunch of chars named "Aaaaa" "Bbbbb" and on to sit there and farm him over and over, not allowing anyone else to even come remotely close to being able to do it themselves. Anyone who suggests that is either "special" or really really slow on the intake.
And your example is about the dumbest example you could have given in relation to your economic argument. Sure it may only drop 5% of the time. But if the same group is sitting there 24/7 to get the drops, and they are strong enough and have enough of them that no one else can kill him, how does that not affect the economy? That is putting all the important and needed goods into one small groups hands. And that is NOT what was intended. Look at anything in real life if you have to... Anything that was/is ever controlled by a small core group of people, has their price for goods way out of whack with reality. Because you need it, you have to pay for it. That is not the sign of a healthy economy.
Oh, and by the way... A 5% drop rate doesn't mean it drops the item 5% of the times it dies. It means each time it dies, it has a 5% chance of dropping that item. For example, if a NPC dies 100 times, it doesn't drop the item 5 times. Rather it has a 5% chance to drop the item EACH time it dies. Every time you kill it, you have a 5% chance it is going to drop the item.
If they Do not plan for a small group farming a particular item, area, group of npcs then they made a tragic flaw in the game design. This type of player behavior happens every day on every mmorpg. EQ is the easiest example, Entire guilds monopolize certain zones and npcs, most of the items fortunatlly are non tradeable and have little to no impact, however a number of items are and these guilds have exclusivity to them. Even some of the larger guilds 80+ members if you think about it compared to the server population of 5000+ is a very small group of people. Now thus far your entire argument is based around bots, I am not simply talking about botters here I am talking about players in general. Get off the bot subject they are such a small percentage of players they are insignificant. It does not matter if an npc is monopolized by a group of botters, or a guild farming the end result is exactlly the same. I understand that people who bot offend your morality, I am not condoning it, I am simply trying to get you to realize that People who Farm in game to control an item in game, People who bot and people who sell for money on ebay, the end result of their actions is exactlly the same. I was in the #2 guild on my server when I played EQ, trust me I know just how long a group of people can monopolize a spawn/zone or items. I know my guild did it sometimes for months on end. While we were not selling on ebay or anything it was to equip our guild or gain money, the end result was no different.
Point is the behavior exists in every mmorpg, I am using EQ as my primary example as its the most well known. The behavior is not limited to those who bot, or those selling money on ebay. Guilds do it, individual players do it, all for personal gain in game. So the reality of the matter is this, what is the Defining difference? Those who do it for personal gain in RL, vs Those who do it for personal gain in game. That however is not the argument, its how does this impact the overall economy? Simple It doesnt. Because the behavior is not limited to any particular group of players, and players have been exibiting this behavior since mmorpgs first hit the market, any developer that would not plan for a small group monopolizing something is stupid. It happens, its a fact. You cannot deny that it happens all you have to do it look at any given server, any given game and find the top guild on the server. You are guaranteed to find out they are monopolizing one aspect of the game, it afterall is why they are the top guild.
Again my beliefs,
I am not a fan of botters, honestly I do find it cheapening to the game experience. However I have yet to see any given botter or group of botters affect my gameplay experience or the overall economy significantlly, thus I pretty much ignore them.
Exploiters, this group can and does affect every aspect of the game negatively. This is how things unintended by the developers end up in game. This group is no better then crackers and should have their testicles removed to prevent them from contaminating the rest of the gene pool.
Ebayers, to each their own I say. If they want to sell their coin/items for cash the way I see it, there is less overall impact on the econ as the coin is circulating outside the normal channels. I personally do not buy/sell coin however I see no reason not to sell my account when I am done with it. 1. I am not stupid enough to turn down several hundred dollars that I can invest into my PC costing me less to keep up with current tech, 2. Im not going to play anymore and usually I have 3+ years invested in a char it imo is a crying shame to simply delete it when someone else could put it to good use.
You are right, bots are a small percentage. But that small percentage farming the rare-drop NPCs is a major factor in the fun of the game. After all you can't get to the items, as you don't stand a chance. That affects my gameplay. That also means I have to hunt and hunt like mad, or buy cash with real money, so I can afford to get the item. That again affects my gameplay. Then I have to bid against 30 other people also wanting the item, which will increase the cost to me again.
People monopolizing a large portion of the economy certainly takes the fun out of a game. Even though it is done, doesn't make it right or fair for every other user. It ruins the game quite frankly. I've done quests that have taken an hour or more, just to get to the end and find it camped and no way I can even get remotely close to getting that item. That certainly affects me. That takes the fun out of the game. How do you know what areas are camped if you are a newer player? You take the time to do the quest and can't get anything for it, except having to fork over and buy it. That isn't fair on anyone.
And it sure does affect the economy. If 5 people control the flow of one item, they will make an auction for it. If that item sells for 1,000,000 in-game currency, all other items become worth at least that much. After all why sell for less if people will pay it? So they hold another auction. This time starting price is around 1,000,000. It ends up selling for 1.2 million. Now the next time they sell it, they'll ask for 1.2 million. And because of the extremely limited supply, with a high demand the price keeps going up. It's part of every economy, real and game-wise. After all, if people will pay it, why not charge it?
Sure they may be a top guild, but what chance does everyone else have at competing? or even getting an item they are farming? Even if it is human NPC camping and not bots, it still ruins the fun of the game, as you still can't get the item you just spent hours questing for.
Regardless of the reasons, performing some of those actions is still a violation of the ToS or CoC. It's voluntary to accept, and if you don't like their rules, don't play the game. Let the honest players that want to enjoy the game and be able to do quests and actually get the quest items (from doing quest) play the game. People are all about instant gratification nowadays. No one wants to put the time in to earn their level/rank/armor etc. I remember when EQ1 and AC first came out. Buying an item (out of game) was unheard of.... A lot of monarchies in AC actually frowned on it. Just because people can get away with something, doesn't make it right.
You are right, bots are a small percentage. But that small percentage farming the rare-drop NPCs is a major factor in the fun of the game. After all you can't get to the items, as you don't stand a chance. That affects my gameplay. That also means I have to hunt and hunt like mad, or buy cash with real money, so I can afford to get the item. That again affects my gameplay. Then I have to bid against 30 other people also wanting the item, which will increase the cost to me again.
People monopolizing a large portion of the economy certainly takes the fun out of a game. Even though it is done, doesn't make it right or fair for every other user. It ruins the game quite frankly. I've done quests that have taken an hour or more, just to get to the end and find it camped and no way I can even get remotely close to getting that item. That certainly affects me. That takes the fun out of the game. How do you know what areas are camped if you are a newer player? You take the time to do the quest and can't get anything for it, except having to fork over and buy it. That isn't fair on anyone.
And it sure does affect the economy. If 5 people control the flow of one item, they will make an auction for it. If that item sells for 1,000,000 in-game currency, all other items become worth at least that much. After all why sell for less if people will pay it? So they hold another auction. This time starting price is around 1,000,000. It ends up selling for 1.2 million. Now the next time they sell it, they'll ask for 1.2 million. And because of the extremely limited supply, with a high demand the price keeps going up. It's part of every economy, real and game-wise. After all, if people will pay it, why not charge it?
Sure they may be a top guild, but what chance does everyone else have at competing? or even getting an item they are farming? Even if it is human NPC camping and not bots, it still ruins the fun of the game, as you still can't get the item you just spent hours questing for.
Regardless of the reasons, performing some of those actions is still a violation of the ToS or CoC. It's voluntary to accept, and if you don't like their rules, don't play the game. Let the honest players that want to enjoy the game and be able to do quests and actually get the quest items (from doing quest) play the game. People are all about instant gratification nowadays. No one wants to put the time in to earn their level/rank/armor etc. I remember when EQ1 and AC first came out. Buying an item (out of game) was unheard of.... A lot of monarchies in AC actually frowned on it. Just because people can get away with something, doesn't make it right.
Precisely, It does Affect your personal fun That I agree with. however again you made reference only to bots, How about players like myself to buyout entire parts of a market and raise prices, Same effect except I am using a fully legitimate ingame mechanic to do so. End result same. Fortunatlly players who like to gamble and invest like me are few and far beteween, however point remains the same.
People, bots, guild monopolizing, yes it takes the fun out. We are in full agreement here and I think I understand your major gripe here. Does it ruin gameplay? to the user whos being blocked, it most certaintly does. However If its a legitimate group using a tactic such as farming, while it is not fair they are fully within their right to do so in game. In this case you mention a quest completion, This burden falls squarely on the shoulders of the Developers. Its long recognized that players as a whole ditest extremely rare npcs/items required for a quest progression, however this is a intentional thing built into games by the Devs to keep people playing. Complain as much as we all do, in the end we will invest the time which equals more money for them.
Now you are correct in the manner it affects the economy. Yes someone monopolizing has free reign to raise prices, however realize this, At some point the blame lays on the players who pay it. As an investor type player here I will be blunt about it. Ill raise the price until people quit buying it. The way I see it if they are stupid enough to pay 10x the price of what something is really worth, then it serves them right. Because a player like myself Will come back down on the price if people wont buy it. Afterall I do not want to sit on an item forever. Farmers for Ebay and such affect it no differently, yes they can drive the price up with a monopoly however remember this. Most of them have far more initiative to get rid of an item then I do, especially if its an item that you can only have a limited number of before getting more. to them Time is money, in RL. So honestly they are going to have far less patience as a whole to sit on an item trying to raise the price then a player like myself. Case and point when I was buying up items in ffxi, I am fairly certain most of the players I bought from were botters. I never asked never cared to. I bought the items I was after by coming where they were camping and offering them cash on the spot most often substantially less then what I sold for so they could continue camping. Initiative is what it boiled down to. I was willing to keep my AH full and have a backlog of items that I sometimes sat on for days at a time or longer, while they wanted to get rid of it now. But the simple fact was this, I was a legitimate player, buying items from players I "Assumed" were camping an item legit and I was reselling them at a higher price because people were willing to pay it.
Referring to your forth paragraph, again refer to my second in this post. Blame the devs for that. That is poor foresight on how the game would be played. Fair is a relative term, This is a game there are two types of people in it. Those who play to enjoy the game, and those who play to be at the top, those personality types are simply going to clash no matter how you look at it. Ever wonder why top guilds are the way they are? Its simple, they have the Drive and the means to be there and will not let anyone stand in their way. IS it fair? most of the time no, but then neither is RL. This is why MMORPGs have a disclaimer stating that online experience may vary, as they realize they cannot control the bahavior of their player base.
Last paragraph, the only time they are violating the TOS is if they are botting, using third party software of any type, or selling coin on ebay etc. Yes they are in fact violating the TOS I never argued that. However My entire point this thread was to point out that they outside the fun factor do not affect the game in any manner the devs did not intend that a normal player using legit methods cannot affect themselves. The argument of Coin sellers destroy the econ is a moot argument and really not an argument at all as the facts are undeniable they do not. Now the argument that they are breaking the TOS and Infringing upon others right to have fun is In fact also undeniable in that they do.
My main gripe, as you have more or less gotten is that it ruins my fun and enjoyment. Why should they be allowed to ruin my fun and enjoyment of something I am paying for? There are ways to enforce and manage bots, albeit not as good as it could be. 24/7 farming by a small group of people should not be allowed. It is not really their fault (although they are choosing to screw everyone else over). It's more the players who drive the market, and the devs for not trying to control it. How they might, I don't know, but if I'm paying good money for a game, I want to be able to actually complete quests. I am paying $12 US (which is about 15 Canadian) per month to not even be able to do a lot of the content? As a paying customer how is that fair?
And as for real players buying and re-selling, that's called commerce. I don't have a problem with that. People can still do the quest even if you bought a few and resold them. I don't always have time to do the necessary quest to get the item and have bought before. And you are exactly right that the players are to blame. I'm not sure if it was in this post or before (they are all starting to run together lately) but I have mentioned that I have found alot of gamers don't actually want to earn their level/armor/rank/etc. The players are the main reason that they are around to begin with. They just want to go out and buy whatever they need so they can run around bragging about how uber and leet (never can remember the alphanumeric version of those... 7ee1 or something).
That's why a game like GW has me excited. Their instanced quests prevent just that. And they have eliminated a large portion of re-selling items because it's customized by your character. Once you outgrow something you recycle it back to it's base components or just dump it. Sure you can buy/sell the base components (ie hide, bone etc) but no one can camp your quest items, or steal your kills. They are taking the most proactive approach to make a game actually fun and playable that I have seen from any company so far.
This is not something that a standard game currently on the market can fix anytime soon or easily. It will take the game being designed from the beginning (such as GW) to implement what is needed for such control/monitoring. I am personally looking forward to GW, as it has eliminated almost every major problem with MMOGs (ie ganking, grinding, farming, camping, kill stealing etc etc).
[url=http://p
Hey anyone aware that WoW site www.thottbot.com is run by IGE! Boo!
Well, I'll just boycott this forum as long as they're those IGE adds.
The more popular such (autocensure) compagny get, the more harm they'll do.
[url=http://p
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Don't be so naive. If there are items that are tradable that are of value to the community then those items can be farmed and sold for hard currency.
Bartering is deeply embedded in human nature. You can choose not to participate, you can even boycott and protest, but you will be wholly unsuccessful in stopping it.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Cheap shot.
MMORPG
Don't be so naive. If there are items that are tradable that are of value to the community then those items can be farmed and sold for hard currency.
Bartering is deeply embedded in human nature. You can choose not to participate, you can even boycott and protest, but you will be wholly unsuccessful in stopping it.
It's true. The will to cheat will never be removed from some people. It doesn't mean people should sit and accept it though.
I have zero respect for hackers and I have even less respect for an IGE user. At least a hack user has the balls to risk his account to artificially boost his stats. Artificially boosting your stats with real cash does not make you any more legit. Your money doesn't buy you legitimacy. The people you are paying are breaking the TOS.
Hack users and IGE users are all trying to get a leap on the competition though means other than normal gameplay. Such activity is generally known as cheating.
MMORPG