Originally posted by nariusseldon "Forced to"??? in a game? LOL .. that is why people are NOT playing it. NO one likes to be forced to do anything. People play games to have FUN, not to be forced to do anything. WOW is 100x more successful because it provides CHOICE. If you don't want to participate in PvP, you don't have to. If you don't want to raid, you can just do 5-man dungeons. And whoever said mining is fun in UO is delusional. I have done it .. standing there, clicking and clicking with 50 other guys standing next to me. I would much rather go kill 10 wolves instead ... at least i get to KILL some stuff and MOVE my toon. But even after 3 pages of discussion, it is quite moot. The market will not go back to UO. It is not that big of a success, compared to EQ and WOW.
I always considered the 'forced' aspects of MMOs to be as anti-sandbox as you can get. I have always been fascinated by EVE but the PvP in it pretty much kills off any sandbox appeal that game has for me. Sandbox games to me are about bulding stuff and PvP kills any joy that brings to me. WoW might lack the range of options that EVE has but at least in that game what I build sticks around.
You don't really undestand EVE to realize the PVP isn't all pervvasive and you can build an amazing amount of things if you'll look past your perceptions.
Most of what you build in WOW is obsolete with the next expansion, (if it was ever good to begin with) and has no lasting impact. In EVE you can actually build permenant space stations that can never be destroyed, and there are ships that were built 5 years ago still in the game and still just as useful as they were back then.
UO was a great game mostly because it was first. Once plaeyrs and developers realized how much money there was to be made by quest oriented, more theme park like games thats where the market went and remains today.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe there is room for a UO type sandbox MMO in our future still but a pure FFA PVP focused MMO like Darkfall ( which I do like) or Mortal Online isn't the way to grab the full market out there otherwise it would be a niche game like those 2 games are, the key is a sandbox/ themepark MMO focused on all aspects of true sandbox AND themepark done right with the right backing and the right company, you can have a open world whether it be ground or space based or even both but with the option of fast travel given to those that want it, however you must travel to x spot to be able to activate fast travel points on maps, however for the sandbox purist as in old school mmos mechanics which encourage open world travel in between those points like for example Darkfall's chaos chests or wildlife or non static mobs or npcs that may yield hidden quests or rewards just for roaming around the world, you must give a incentive to travel across the open worlds.
Like to roam dungeons or areas? How about raids? Old school gamers want to be able be able to go anywhere and meet or run into anyone at any time giving the social elements that MMOs lack these days why not give it to them ? Give them the option of grouping up rewarding more xp or skill points for grouping, make the bosses static however to prevent spawn camping and loot whoring which I will discuss , we turn to instances YES !! In the same game for those who like to solo or group up still but dont want sit and wait for a spawn or get angry cause its being camped the rewards for instanced raids or dungeons can be a lot greater than those of the open world dungeon also scaling the diffculty of said dungeon or raid to the size of your group or just going solo can elevate the chances of getter better loots. The open world version is there as a option for the sandbox purist just the question of technology and making the open world and instancing work for both playstyles.
FFA PVP as EVE Online has shown PVP with full looting can work if done right and can be further improved upon its setup cribbing from EVE as a example you have resources , epic mob spawns and lands or space that hold the best of the best clans , guilds, corps, etc as a game trying to get and appeal the the masses and the hardcore, give the option of FFA PVP and Consensual PVP Battlegrounds and Instances heres the catch for this game, all instanced PVP and battlegrounds epic storyline battlegrounds RVR instances would not be full loot but as a fun means of getting together for friendly competition as in WOW's arena there problem solved for the casual gamer or occasional pvper, now in the same game you have areas of land large areas where some of the best resources, epic mobs, and also be able to place thier cities, kingdoms etc there would reap the best and epic rewards for traveling into these FFA areas , when you travel into these areas you know the risk of entering there , so no whining or complaining when you get ganked , killed, or griefed, know when you enter those areas always bring friends and if you want to live there have a strong guild or a good group of great pvpers there you have solved the wants and needs of both playstyles of both casual and hardcore in the same GAME and everyone is happy knowing you can go to a arena and fight but for the hardcore you can enter lands not small by any means and live on the edge and have your risk=reward, on a note I suppose battlegrounds and arenas can have pvp rewards but entering the FFA zones can gain greater rewards as it should be.
Housing the staple of creating a community, several games have done it but have not really gone and refine it and improved upon the system making it where the server is clogged up with houses, castles , factories, etc. Examples of housing UO SWG come to mind combine both systems and improve upon them especially when it comes to people leaving the game and having inactive accounts leaving there house sitting there years after they leave (SWG) and as of last year they implemented a permaneant house pack includes all factories after a 90 day period if you dont play or pay, you lose your spot where your houses etc is plopped down and gets packed up into your datapad/ inventory so when you log back in you can safely plop down your house in the same spot if someone else hasnt taken it. You can even make it into a mini game or achievement for packing up x amount of houses by giving badges or rewards like SWG did. So with that system the clogging the server problem has a solution now the best part of housing decorating it In SWG as it would work in this sandbox/ themepark MMO same mechanics would apply here and even improving on it being able to create different housing types, painting your house, adding on to your house, giving a more immersive and enjoyable experience to those old schoolers and maybe the casuals or other people that havent experienced this in a MMO yet can both enjoy to showcase your house and your loots that you have picked up from your journeys. This element is my favorite in old MMOs being able to create a city and sharing with other players whether it be a city or space station creates sense of community that lacks in MMOs today. It can work in a MMO today and open to people as a option , you dont have to have a house but the option is there if you want it same mechanics apply one toons can have x housing spots and hold x amount of items and the chance to increase the number of items in it.
Minigames, WOW , SWG other MMOs have them in the forms of various things whether it be collections loot drops from mobs to kill collections reaping rewards and giving a sense of achievement and getting a cool item to showcase in that house or that trophy to hang in your house, and even badges that showcase on your toon to show off for friends. Other little mini games like fishing, treasure hunting (open world random hunting chests or finding static areas with nice little rewards or wildlife ), playing darts, pool, or even drink at a bar or cantina. Whatever the theme of the game is it is once again optional you can do it or not do it the the pure achiever has content as well as the casual if they dont have much time to play for the day its there if you want to do it or not. Its about improving upon these games to reward both playstyles and has done so in other MMOs.
Crafting the biggest and my favorite part of MMOs is a crafting system with indepth and complex system to create a enourmous amount and delicious items, as a crafting system and a player run economy , crafting is king no matter what armor or weapons or items out there you loot , crafting them will always bring the most benefits, taking upon Fallen Earth's and Star Wars Galaxies, EVE and Ryzoms crafting system taking the best parts out of them and rolling them into one you create one of the finest crafting system known in any MMO bring the most dedicated crafters from any MMO to this, include scavenging, gather resources whether it be scanning for them or setting up a refinery to strip mine them people with the most patience and sense of pride come from creating the best items for a server and become known to all players that the person's crafted items will be the most sought for and bring loads of players to his shop to buy his items, all crafting styles from , armorsmith, weaponsmith, making furniture, or breeding pets (creature handler- beast master) all items in the game whether it be not important to you but may be important to the crafters which would in turn make you money for collecting items for them, even looted weapons or armor can be deconstructed and crafted again giving on par what a real crafted item would be giving appearance of toons ,real diversity and not everyone looks alike, from crafting clothes, to building vechicles or construcing structures or seige weapons, or creating starships whatever the theme of the game it brings to the table the minority market along with the majority together and creating once again a community, once again the crafting is purely optional you dont have to do it but the option is there for the sandbox purists and for the casuals a choice to go to a crafter and have something made for them a a reasonable price unlike loot centric MMOs where rare drops go for obscence amounts of money or any items period. Where the players control the market not the loots giving competiton between crafters for the fairest prices. For a casual that might need some steady stream of cash can collect resources and scavenge items for the crafter and trade for items or even take cash for them its a win win for both casual and hardcore.
Spamming , botting , goldsellers a problem that has plagued most MMOs due to nature that most of these MMOs are non FFA PVP whereas a FFA PVP there are next to none goldselling , botting , or spamming the solutions to these problems to implement mechanics for afk (botting) (macroing) person is returned to login in screen after 20 minutes of inactivity or a system to detect macroing or botting to the effect if the same activities are being performed after 10 minutes of play they are disconnected making it more difficult to skill or level abilities or farm mobs for gold. Gold sellers and spammers after 10 minutes turn red and are open to attack from other players , if they are known to be gold sellers, via in game GMs or Wardens to find these people turn out to be gold sellers they are immediatley know thruout a system messaging giving name location and are turned red, or gold can be consifacted from the gold seller or buyer and a lottery is held once a week for any illegal gold and is given to the player base in 1st 2nd 3rd place winners giving back to the community is what is important legally and legit the sellers earned the money thru intended game mechanics but illegally is selling credits to other players as in turn illegal gold is returned and spread thru the community , any clan, guild known to buy gold their clan banks are seized and any illegal purchases with illegal gold shall be put in said lottery. Illegal activities in game and players that take use of them should be made examples of in this way and it kind of give a sense of justice by spreading the wealth to some lucky individuals each week.
And finally we come to character progression , most MMOs today have a level based , class system, too few use the skill based system allowing you to create the type of toon you want to giving you the freedom to choose your own template, bring in a skill system where 1 toon can mix and match any skills they want allowing to and up to 4 different professions and skill sets whether it be pure crafting but gimping ur self in combat , since there would be several crafting professions the need of alts is still viable so allowing your self the 4 master professions you can learn 2 crafting or 2 combat professions. Depending on the server infrastructure is one shard or multiple 3 toons for 1 shard each. Limiting a person to just having every skill and professions upon all 3 toons since there would be numerous professions . As a skill based system it gives you the player be casual or hardcore you get the freedom to pick and choose what skills you want for your toons . Isn't what MMOs are about people and brings the fun factor back into picking what you want to do and limits you with a cap to safeguard from other players that like to max out everything and being overpowered bringing drama to the game and to the developers.
I have given a outline how this sandbox/ themepark can be done to appeal to both and solutions to deal with conflicting playstyles give both what they want together in ONE game and you have a success in the works it all comes down to one thing FUN , but you got to have options for every playstyles if you don't like x content don't do it why deny someone else's view of fun cause of your playstyle?
I forgot to add if your going to have a sandbox/themepark MMO not all of the game should be centered around combat and have noncombat professions like crafters and enterainers give people the choice to do lots of things in game giving more social type game play.
Yea...forced to. Playing the "Its just a Game" card doesn't work for this argument. WOW "gently forces" you to explore new regions because quests tell you to go there. WOW "gently forces" you to run 5 mans if you want to have gear good enough to kill anything more challenging than random world monsters. WOW "gently forces" you to run raids if you want to experience anything somewhat challenging in the game. When's the last time someone in quest greens got picked for an endgame raid? EVERY game, from jump rope to professional Football (at its most basic function) is about overcoming a challenge. People realize FUN by progression and ultimately overcoming the challenge. MOST people don't have a lot of fun Failing and Failing and Failing because they refuse to do what it takes to progress and/or overcome the challenge. The secret to WOW is that they set the bar so low that any person over the age of 3 and has command over their motor skills can play the game. No problem with that other than the people who want something more meaningful and a bit more challenging are FORCED into the rat race that is Endgame Raiding and/or Arena. Secondly, never said mining in UO was fun for everyone (some people enjoy accumulating lots of resources). I just said that mining in UO is 100x more exciting than mining in WOW. That statement says more about mining in WOW more than it says anything about mining in UO. At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers.
WOW forces you a lot more gently than UO. A lot of people don't raid in WOW, you know. Most people (just go to wow-heroes and check guild progress) don't do hard modes.
The BEAUTY of the game is it let you CHOOSE yo level of difficulties. Surely you don't get into raids with all green items but you don't have to. I have friends who never raid and just play the other parts of the game. The game is BIG enough for them to do that.
The secret to WOW is that it let the PLAYER choose the difficulties. You have everything from simple quests, to hard mode, which only the best guilds on each servers can even tackle.
It is a MUCH better game than UO in that regard. Plus, you don't have to PvP if you don't want to. UO FORCES you to PvP.
"At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers" .. that is BAD game design and rejected by most players in the market.
Originally posted by Kyleran I always considered the 'forced' aspects of MMOs to be as anti-sandbox as you can get. I have always been fascinated by EVE but the PvP in it pretty much kills off any sandbox appeal that game has for me. Sandbox games to me are about bulding stuff and PvP kills any joy that brings to me. WoW might lack the range of options that EVE has but at least in that game what I build sticks around.
You don't really undestand EVE to realize the PVP isn't all pervvasive and you can build an amazing amount of things if you'll look past your perceptions.
Most of what you build in WOW is obsolete with the next expansion, (if it was ever good to begin with) and has no lasting impact. In EVE you can actually build permenant space stations that can never be destroyed, and there are ships that were built 5 years ago still in the game and still just as useful as they were back then.
UO was a great game mostly because it was first. Once plaeyrs and developers realized how much money there was to be made by quest oriented, more theme park like games thats where the market went and remains today.
To tell the truth I really never understoond why people obssess that something can/will become obsolete. For me the thrill is in building something and then see it fullfill its function. The fact that something better might become available at a later time is completely irrelevant to the satisfaction of completing a project.
I like to push the limits of what I can do but I find no enjoyment in gambling. My biggest issue with EVE is that at certain point pushing your limits requires you to gamble. The 'do not fly what you cannot afford to lose' rule of the game is very boring to me. I love the concept of EVE but in the hassle of PvP pretty much invalidates all that potential.
Yea...forced to. Playing the "Its just a Game" card doesn't work for this argument. WOW "gently forces" you to explore new regions because quests tell you to go there. WOW "gently forces" you to run 5 mans if you want to have gear good enough to kill anything more challenging than random world monsters. WOW "gently forces" you to run raids if you want to experience anything somewhat challenging in the game. When's the last time someone in quest greens got picked for an endgame raid? EVERY game, from jump rope to professional Football (at its most basic function) is about overcoming a challenge. People realize FUN by progression and ultimately overcoming the challenge. MOST people don't have a lot of fun Failing and Failing and Failing because they refuse to do what it takes to progress and/or overcome the challenge. The secret to WOW is that they set the bar so low that any person over the age of 3 and has command over their motor skills can play the game. No problem with that other than the people who want something more meaningful and a bit more challenging are FORCED into the rat race that is Endgame Raiding and/or Arena. Secondly, never said mining in UO was fun for everyone (some people enjoy accumulating lots of resources). I just said that mining in UO is 100x more exciting than mining in WOW. That statement says more about mining in WOW more than it says anything about mining in UO. At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers.
WOW forces you a lot more gently than UO. A lot of people don't raid in WOW, you know. Most people (just go to wow-heroes and check guild progress) don't do hard modes.
The BEAUTY of the game is it let you CHOOSE yo level of difficulties. Surely you don't get into raids with all green items but you don't have to. I have friends who never raid and just play the other parts of the game. The game is BIG enough for them to do that.
The secret to WOW is that it let the PLAYER choose the difficulties. You have everything from simple quests, to hard mode, which only the best guilds on each servers can even tackle.
It is a MUCH better game than UO in that regard. Plus, you don't have to PvP if you don't want to. UO FORCES you to PvP.
"At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers" .. that is BAD game design and rejected by most players in the market.
C'mon.....questing or running 5 mans are not viable endgame alternatives to raiding. The game revolves around aquiring gear with a very clear progression ladder Questing > 5 Mans > 5 Man Heroics > RAIDING. Casual players may never reach the final destination and have enough to do on the bottom of the ladder to keep them busy.....but make no mistake, all roads lead to Best In Slot Gear that is only aquirable by having enough time required for endgame raiding. The same can be said for WOW PvP.
As far as being able to choose your own level of difficulty......its fine and all, only that only the few self motivated players are going to be the ones to push themselves to improve their game. Many will settle and plateau if they are getting enough goodies to satisfy them. (See WOW Battlegrounds........Terrible players that repeat the same failed game plan "or lack there of" over and over and over with nothing to slap them on the knuckles to play better)
By the way....as of the first expansion to UO released in like 1998 (Trammel expansion) you were not forced to PvP to do anything.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase. The people that did stick around and adapted to the challenged were MUCH more enjoyable to play with than many of the playerbase in WOW that wouldn't know how to play their toon even if they had an manual prepared by elitistjerks themselves.
There are a lot of players who played UO that have been chasing that adrenaline rush given the FFA environment in nearly every MMO game thats been released since. And this again, this may be a matter of opinion, but I valued the things I had and the positive experiences I had more considering the risk and dangers required to get them than I have in an environment where items and experiences come with little consequence.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase.
If GPS was never invented and we were all still forced to use a compass we'd be much better trackers and pathfinders. But you know what, how many people really give a poop? Give someone a compass and give someone a GPS and go tell them to get to a location. How many will turn their nose up at the GPS and go, give me that compass? Too few to matter. Who cares what results by forcing people to do what they don't want to do? The ultimate result is they won't play the game. Then what have you acheived?
Making a game overly difficult to play does indeed end up with a playerbase who knows what they're doing. But you know what, there are plenty of people who know how to play WOW 100X better than others and if I don't want to play with the clueless ones, I don't have to;) I get the best of both worlds and I don't have to suffer to get it.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase.
If GPS was never invented and we were all still forced to use a compass we'd be much better trackers and pathfinders. But you know what, how many people really give a poop? Give someone a compass and give someone a GPS and go tell them to get to a location. How many will turn their nose up at the GPS and go, give me that compass? Too few to matter. Who cares what results by forcing people to do what they don't want to do? The ultimate result is they won't play the game. Then what have you acheived?
Making a game overly difficult to play does indeed end up with a playerbase who knows what they're doing. But you know what, there are plenty of people who know how to play WOW 100X better than others and if I don't want to play with the clueless ones, I don't have to;) I get the best of both worlds and I don't have to suffer to get it.
Good analogy, but I have to disagree with you on the rest.
I'm one of those WOW players that don't have the time to dedicate to raid schedules and I'm the one that ends up with the idiots in 5 mans and Battlegrounds. It's not fun playing with players who have had to only mash 3 buttons their entire leveling process to get to where they are....and then watch them fall on their face the second a situation that requires a bit of fast thinking and resoursefulness presents itself.
When 30+ players in an Arathi Valley battleground get wiped at a choke point and it NEVER occurs to anyone that they can choose another route to their destination, it says a lot about the playerbase. Nope...lets just rez up (no harm, no foul) and lets do it again, and again, and again. Not a very satisfying playing experience.
I agree in that making stuff hard for the sake of making it hard is not a great practice.....but when something difficult presents itself that has a legitimate reason for being difficult, it absolutely has a place and the player/community benefits in the long run.
I understand your point, however... I honestly think people over-exagerate the punishment for failure in a game like UO. If you die to a red, you can recall to one of hundreds of player vendors, grab yourself a new set of armor, and be back in business just as fast as you can make a corpse run in just about any other game. Thats if you don't have your own armorsmith. Its honestly, not that harsh.
Well that skirts the actual Time cost to players. The actual cost includes the time spent getting the gold to buy the armor. The trip to the vendor could be instantaneous, but if the gold takes more than 4 minutes to farm then death has "cost" that player more than it does in WOW.
Layered on top of that cost is the reason behind the cost. Incurring a cost due to your own mistake (PVE) is much more acceptable to players than someone else forcing the cost upon you (open PVP). When you mention the cost is increased in the open PVP situation (player takes your gear) that makes the situation even worse. Furthermore, in the PVE situation they probably stood more to gain by continuing to kill the mobs than they would stand to gain in open PVP. So the entire situation is strongly weighted towards this disadvantegous persecution of another player. And for most players that's just not as fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I understand your point, however... I honestly think people over-exagerate the punishment for failure in a game like UO. If you die to a red, you can recall to one of hundreds of player vendors, grab yourself a new set of armor, and be back in business just as fast as you can make a corpse run in just about any other game. Thats if you don't have your own armorsmith. Its honestly, not that harsh.
Well that skirts the actual Time cost to players. The actual cost includes the time spent getting the gold to buy the armor. The trip to the vendor could be instantaneous, but if the gold takes more than 4 minutes to farm then death has "cost" that player more than it does in WOW.
Layered on top of that cost is the reason behind the cost. Incurring a cost due to your own mistake (PVE) is much more acceptable to players than someone else forcing the cost upon you (open PVP). When you mention the cost is increased in the open PVP situation (player takes your gear) that makes the situation even worse. Furthermore, in the PVE situation they probably stood more to gain by continuing to kill the mobs than they would stand to gain in open PVP. So the entire situation is strongly weighted towards this disadvantegous persecution of another player. And for most players that's just not as fun.
I said most games. I didn't break the numbers down, is it 4 minutes to farm for another set, 8 minutes? I don't know, but its not the two hours of hell most people seem to assume. What if you found a "purple"? you could have enough gold for a plethora of suits..
Then again, halfway decent guilds will have multiple sets ready to go in the guild bank. You go out with your guild, and work on your crafters and supplies for a night during the week, call it a guild function. Maybe the guild will find a few reds that seem to infest the resource spots at every turn.
Or, what if the stars the moon, and the planets aligned just right, and you actually killed the PK (gasp!), then you could take his stuff, and be ahead of the game. However, that is never an option when this discussion is brought up.
Look, i get it, PvP is not for everyone, and thats fine, I dont care for PvE, i find it dull and monotonous. In the OP i don't believe the words PvP or full loot were even brought up, he was just talking about the model. Most of the points brought up there could be considered "carebear". However, people immedietly jumped to losing their gear, and chose to completly ignore everything else.
UO had many options, from full loot, to designing your own house (which i thought was one of the greatest aditions i ever saw to an MMO) block by block, not just plopping down a cottage deed. I was stunned by the art and design skills people had with such a simple tool.
UO was a living breathing world, a lot of people consider WoW a living breathing world, but imo, its not even close. Others will disagree, thats fine.
UO was harsh, but you could make your own home however, you might lose all your gear the next night. You might watch the entire server unite to take on GM controlled monsters trying to take over a town. You could defend a GM sponsored player town from a gang of reds, or you could recall around and see player made museums. You could become an anti-pk, and hunt the reds, or you can become a crafter that supples the reds in a black market, just as a few sill examples. It wasn't just about getting that next piece of gear, and i think thats what a lot of us miss.
Sadly when UO is brought up people tend to only see their gear getting taken, and its a shame that theres a whole slew of people out there that think that thats the only thing UO brought to the genre', most having never even played it.
I'm not saying that everyone would love the UO model now, but given the development over time it may have morphed into something more "mainstream". WoW is not as close to EQ as everyone thinks, but over time, the model developed.
I think a real part of the problem is, its just easier to make a themepark. Content wise, economy wise, server stabilty, amongst many other things, so it wil be awhile before sandboxes become "mainstream"
Sandboxes are no better than Themeparks, overall. They offer different things, for different people. Sandbox is not going to take the place of "Mainstream" from Themeparks because themeparks aren't inferior to sandboxes.
Just because it's harder to make doesn't make it better when done right.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Sandboxes are no better than Themeparks, overall. They offer different things, for different people. Sandbox is not going to take the place of "Mainstream" from Themeparks because themeparks aren't inferior to sandboxes. Just because it's harder to make doesn't make it better when done right.
I don't recall saying sandboxes would take the place of themeparks. I also don't recall saying one was inferior to the other either.
edit-
not sure if your post was directed at me or not, but seemed it.. apologies if it wasnt
Well, that's if there can be two "mainstreams" at once... which wouldn't make sense. If you meant that sandboxes would be just as popular as themeparks, then that's right.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Well, that's if there can be two "mainstreams" at once... which wouldn't make sense. If you meant that sandboxes would be just as popular as themeparks, then that's right.
Theres nothing wrong with more choices for the consumer...
Not my point. You assumed sandboxes need more work to become "mainstream", which would mean sandboxes would become more popular than themeparks. I don't think that's the case.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Not my point. You assumed sandboxes need more work to become "mainstream", which would mean sandboxes would become more popular than themeparks. I don't think that's the case.
Perhaps i misspoke then, I don't think one needs to more popular than the other, maybe i should have said more mainstream. I honestly dont think they would become more popular than themeparks either, and from a personal point of view, i hope they don't ; )
I think with more development, they could lose the stigma that they seemed to have acquired (see this thread).
It's kinda sad that it seems it's almost too hard for the developers to create a proper themepark game nowadays, and if sandbox would be even harder to create well... the sandbox fans will have to wait a while longer for the game they deserve.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.
I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.
You obviously don't like freedom of choice in your online ROLE PLAYING game. UO was amazing (well, look at the name ;p). I recently tried Fallen Earth..and..it's not UO but it has some nice elements of that "sandbox" feel to it. I thought the same thing as the OP. I thought to myself "Wow, I can only imagine in 10 years what MMO gaming will be like". It turns out it's crap and uninspiring for the most part. If you could build, decorate, trade houses in UO..I think it should be feasible now, and that's only hitting on one of the elements of UO. I don't think the "FFA" style would work today though. Something close would be nice, maybe partial loot, something of that sort.
There is truth in this statement. If UO was so great, why aren't the bulk of the player base still playing? Oh wait, it must have been Trammel, right? Oh wait, no ... it couldn't have been that since they had a shard specifically set aside without the Trammel/Felucca split (Siege Perilous). So, again, why did people leave? Why aren't you playing it anymore?
As far as the market is concerned, Sandbox games are will remain a minority within the MMO industry. Most people don't care about freedom or a virtual world. They simply want a good game for their monthly fee. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't room for sandbox MMOs. However, if you really think they will ever become the future of the MMO market, you are deluding yourself. The only reason why UO was so big in the past was simply because there was no where else to go. Not everyone liked or had the ability to run a 3D game such as EQ. So, UO was pretty much it. As hardware got cheaper, new MMOs came out and UO started to dwindle away.
Now, personally, I played UO since 96 and I stayed until the second expansion after Trammel. I left simply because I was bored. Not enough new "tools" were given to the players to continue the sandbox game play and not do the same thing over and over. I came back (twice) over the past couple of years. I chose not to stay, because the game became heavily itemized, moved away from the crafters and also included item insurance. It seemed to have become nothing more than a dungeon crawl and collect the items with the highest stats.
You ask why nobody plays it, but you answered your own question by saying it became heavily itemized , etc. Now..if you think about that..that's how games are today, which the reason you quit UO for. The "tools" were all there for you. You coul literally do almost anything. Chop wood, build a fuckin fire if you want, fish. I'm suprised at one point you couldn't just piss in the woods. It's really too bad UO2 never took off. The trailer today even still looks awesome ;p. Let's also not forget UO is like 12 years old now and after 3-4 years is when it kind of started to take a hit because of all the "fancy" 3D MMOs like Asherons, DaoC, so on.
If uo was so bad, why does every wow player (and it's clones) want all the features uo had?
I'm talking about player houses, mounts/boats/ships/whatever, pets and complete armor/cloth customization. Go read the dev journal of any mmo out there today. If the game hasn't already patched those features in, you can bet that they are being promised along with the sun and the moon. Coincidently, no other game except uo has all those features as far as I know.
Yes, old school uo was wolves vs sheep and nobody liked to be a sheep. Yes, it's pretty obvious a lot of you were the sheep and are still very upset over being virtually violated in your first mmo. No, a sandbox game in 2010 would not be like that so you can stop your irrational hatred toward the genre.
I think it's messed up how we pay for the same promises in each mmo we move to like this. There is no reason why any mmo shouldn't have dye tubs, or mounts/vehicles along with swimming or flying because pretty much every game engine licensed out for mmos support these features with zero development time outside art and design. Housing a proper customization system does require a little bit of work but the other stuff? No way. Also, why don't more minigames like Uo did? People use to program checkers on their calculators in the 80s but we can't have that minigame available in our little mmo world? Don't you dare cite development time for that bullshit either.
Basic things like fishing/checkers/chess/whatever should be a staple of mmo time wasters. I've seen a few korean games that experiment with this. A mini game here, a music game there. If I can play it on my instant messanger, there should be some half-baked version in the mmo world as well. I believe that if developers really cared about their virtual worlds/games, they would add this kind of fluff to keep people busy while the real content was being made. But they don't. It doesn't matter if you are spending 1,000 dollars a month in a "free to play game" or 15 dollars a month in a "pay to play" game. You are just money to them. If you wise up and stop paying, well there is always someone new to take your place. The mmo industry has lost it's soul. It's no longer about the community or building virtual worlds.
Sorry if this has been said before by others, but I'm not reading this whole thread, just my 2 cents
I recall in '01 playing Ultima Onlne thinking this is great and I can't imagine what great games this will spawn. Back then I thought we would see games developed that would offer complex house building, farming lands and herding wild animals into pens to sheer and slaughter. Games with balance in pve and pvp where both aren't game makers or breakers but both are fun. Content that is player created and supported by the company and vice versa. Imagine what gaming would be like if gaming went with the UO style rather than the EQ style. I for one think it sounds better than hitting level 9000 and raiding to gain super sayain gear with flames.
I agree with you, but one of the major problems with Sandbox MMO's is balance, there's always someone that's going to find a way to tweak a toon so that it has a huge advantage. Then you get copy cats, and the developers have to sit down and find a way to fix that without breaking everything else.
UO's one major flaw is they didn't separate PvP and PvE, the systems are too intertwined. Alterations to one effects the other and not always in a good way. I still play UO, I see the effects all the time and how many of the players have to constantly rebuild character or modify them to keep them at a level where they can actually compete, while having the character suit their tastes.
Granted I have nothing against Open PvP areas, it's the internal coding that I'm talking about, everything in UO is PvP or PvE works the same way as far as skills matter. You don't really see Damage Caps for Controlled Mobs for example because they game doesn't recognize the difference between it attacking in PvE as opposed to PvP.
In reality I'd love to see more UO style games go mainstream. They have a wide horizon when you look at possibility to add depth. Sadly since Blizzard attended the EQ School of MMO Design market trends dictate that future titles from major studios will follow that model.
I know we are talking game mechanics here but I wonder if the people today would take to a "top down" birds' eye view MMO. Perhaps, something like Diablo? I would have to assume, even though those type of games bog down that you could have larger "wars" without lag, not to mention that view (imo) is awesome and different.
Comments
I always considered the 'forced' aspects of MMOs to be as anti-sandbox as you can get. I have always been fascinated by EVE but the PvP in it pretty much kills off any sandbox appeal that game has for me. Sandbox games to me are about bulding stuff and PvP kills any joy that brings to me. WoW might lack the range of options that EVE has but at least in that game what I build sticks around.
You don't really undestand EVE to realize the PVP isn't all pervvasive and you can build an amazing amount of things if you'll look past your perceptions.
Most of what you build in WOW is obsolete with the next expansion, (if it was ever good to begin with) and has no lasting impact. In EVE you can actually build permenant space stations that can never be destroyed, and there are ships that were built 5 years ago still in the game and still just as useful as they were back then.
UO was a great game mostly because it was first. Once plaeyrs and developers realized how much money there was to be made by quest oriented, more theme park like games thats where the market went and remains today.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe there is room for a UO type sandbox MMO in our future still but a pure FFA PVP focused MMO like Darkfall ( which I do like) or Mortal Online isn't the way to grab the full market out there otherwise it would be a niche game like those 2 games are, the key is a sandbox/ themepark MMO focused on all aspects of true sandbox AND themepark done right with the right backing and the right company, you can have a open world whether it be ground or space based or even both but with the option of fast travel given to those that want it, however you must travel to x spot to be able to activate fast travel points on maps, however for the sandbox purist as in old school mmos mechanics which encourage open world travel in between those points like for example Darkfall's chaos chests or wildlife or non static mobs or npcs that may yield hidden quests or rewards just for roaming around the world, you must give a incentive to travel across the open worlds.
Like to roam dungeons or areas? How about raids? Old school gamers want to be able be able to go anywhere and meet or run into anyone at any time giving the social elements that MMOs lack these days why not give it to them ? Give them the option of grouping up rewarding more xp or skill points for grouping, make the bosses static however to prevent spawn camping and loot whoring which I will discuss , we turn to instances YES !! In the same game for those who like to solo or group up still but dont want sit and wait for a spawn or get angry cause its being camped the rewards for instanced raids or dungeons can be a lot greater than those of the open world dungeon also scaling the diffculty of said dungeon or raid to the size of your group or just going solo can elevate the chances of getter better loots. The open world version is there as a option for the sandbox purist just the question of technology and making the open world and instancing work for both playstyles.
FFA PVP as EVE Online has shown PVP with full looting can work if done right and can be further improved upon its setup cribbing from EVE as a example you have resources , epic mob spawns and lands or space that hold the best of the best clans , guilds, corps, etc as a game trying to get and appeal the the masses and the hardcore, give the option of FFA PVP and Consensual PVP Battlegrounds and Instances heres the catch for this game, all instanced PVP and battlegrounds epic storyline battlegrounds RVR instances would not be full loot but as a fun means of getting together for friendly competition as in WOW's arena there problem solved for the casual gamer or occasional pvper, now in the same game you have areas of land large areas where some of the best resources, epic mobs, and also be able to place thier cities, kingdoms etc there would reap the best and epic rewards for traveling into these FFA areas , when you travel into these areas you know the risk of entering there , so no whining or complaining when you get ganked , killed, or griefed, know when you enter those areas always bring friends and if you want to live there have a strong guild or a good group of great pvpers there you have solved the wants and needs of both playstyles of both casual and hardcore in the same GAME and everyone is happy knowing you can go to a arena and fight but for the hardcore you can enter lands not small by any means and live on the edge and have your risk=reward, on a note I suppose battlegrounds and arenas can have pvp rewards but entering the FFA zones can gain greater rewards as it should be.
Housing the staple of creating a community, several games have done it but have not really gone and refine it and improved upon the system making it where the server is clogged up with houses, castles , factories, etc. Examples of housing UO SWG come to mind combine both systems and improve upon them especially when it comes to people leaving the game and having inactive accounts leaving there house sitting there years after they leave (SWG) and as of last year they implemented a permaneant house pack includes all factories after a 90 day period if you dont play or pay, you lose your spot where your houses etc is plopped down and gets packed up into your datapad/ inventory so when you log back in you can safely plop down your house in the same spot if someone else hasnt taken it. You can even make it into a mini game or achievement for packing up x amount of houses by giving badges or rewards like SWG did. So with that system the clogging the server problem has a solution now the best part of housing decorating it
In SWG as it would work in this sandbox/ themepark MMO same mechanics would apply here and even improving on it being able to create different housing types, painting your house, adding on to your house, giving a more immersive and enjoyable experience to those old schoolers and maybe the casuals or other people that havent experienced this in a MMO yet can both enjoy to showcase your house and your loots that you have picked up from your journeys. This element is my favorite in old MMOs being able to create a city and sharing with other players whether it be a city or space station creates sense of community that lacks in MMOs today. It can work in a MMO today and open to people as a option , you dont have to have a house but the option is there if you want it same mechanics apply one toons can have x housing spots and hold x amount of items and the chance to increase the number of items in it.
Minigames, WOW , SWG other MMOs have them in the forms of various things whether it be collections loot drops from mobs to kill collections reaping rewards and giving a sense of achievement and getting a cool item to showcase in that house or that trophy to hang in your house, and even badges that showcase on your toon to show off for friends. Other little mini games like fishing, treasure hunting (open world random hunting chests or finding static areas with nice little rewards or wildlife ), playing darts, pool, or even drink at a bar or cantina. Whatever the theme of the game is it is once again optional you can do it or not do it the the pure achiever has content as well as the casual if they dont have much time to play for the day its there if you want to do it or not. Its about improving upon these games to reward both playstyles and has done so in other MMOs.
Crafting the biggest and my favorite part of MMOs is a crafting system with indepth and complex system to create a enourmous amount and delicious items, as a crafting system and a player run economy , crafting is king no matter what armor or weapons or items out there you loot , crafting them will always bring the most benefits, taking upon Fallen Earth's and Star Wars Galaxies, EVE and Ryzoms crafting system taking the best parts out of them and rolling them into one you create one of the finest crafting system known in any MMO bring the most dedicated crafters from any MMO to this, include scavenging, gather resources whether it be scanning for them or setting up a refinery to strip mine them people with the most patience and sense of pride come from creating the best items for a server and become known to all players that the person's crafted items will be the most sought for and bring loads of players to his shop to buy his items, all crafting styles from , armorsmith, weaponsmith, making furniture, or breeding pets (creature handler- beast master) all items in the game whether it be not important to you but may be important to the crafters which would in turn make you money for collecting items for them, even looted weapons or armor can be deconstructed and crafted again giving on par what a real crafted item would be giving appearance of toons ,real diversity and not everyone looks alike, from crafting clothes, to building vechicles or construcing structures or seige weapons, or creating starships whatever the theme of the game it brings to the table the minority market along with the majority together and creating once again a community, once again the crafting is purely optional you dont have to do it but the option is there for the sandbox purists and for the casuals a choice to go to a crafter and have something made for them a a reasonable price unlike loot centric MMOs where rare drops go for obscence amounts of money or any items period. Where the players control the market not the loots giving competiton between crafters for the fairest prices. For a casual that might need some steady stream of cash can collect resources and scavenge items for the crafter and trade for items or even take cash for them its a win win for both casual and hardcore.
Spamming , botting , goldsellers a problem that has plagued most MMOs due to nature that most of these MMOs are non FFA PVP whereas a FFA PVP there are next to none goldselling , botting , or spamming the solutions to these problems to implement mechanics for afk (botting) (macroing) person is returned to login in screen after 20 minutes of inactivity or a system to detect macroing or botting to the effect if the same activities are being performed after 10 minutes of play they are disconnected making it more difficult to skill or level abilities or farm mobs for gold. Gold sellers and spammers after 10 minutes turn red and are open to attack from other players , if they are known to be gold sellers, via in game GMs or Wardens to find these people turn out to be gold sellers they are immediatley know thruout a system messaging giving name location and are turned red, or gold can be consifacted from the gold seller or buyer and a lottery is held once a week for any illegal gold and is given to the player base in 1st 2nd 3rd place winners giving back to the community is what is important legally and legit the sellers earned the money thru intended game mechanics but illegally is selling credits to other players as in turn illegal gold is returned and spread thru the community , any clan, guild known to buy gold their clan banks are seized and any illegal purchases with illegal gold shall be put in said lottery. Illegal activities in game and players that take use of them should be made examples of in this way and it kind of give a sense of justice by spreading the wealth to some lucky individuals each week.
And finally we come to character progression , most MMOs today have a level based , class system, too few use the skill based system allowing you to create the type of toon you want to giving you the freedom to choose your own template, bring in a skill system where 1 toon can mix and match any skills they want allowing to and up to 4 different professions and skill sets whether it be pure crafting but gimping ur self in combat , since there would be several crafting professions the need of alts is still viable so allowing your self the 4 master professions you can learn 2 crafting or 2 combat professions. Depending on the server infrastructure is one shard or multiple 3 toons for 1 shard each. Limiting a person to just having every skill and professions upon all 3 toons since there would be numerous professions . As a skill based system it gives you the player be casual or hardcore you get the freedom to pick and choose what skills you want for your toons . Isn't what MMOs are about people and brings the fun factor back into picking what you want to do and limits you with a cap to safeguard from other players that like to max out everything and being overpowered bringing drama to the game and to the developers.
I have given a outline how this sandbox/ themepark can be done to appeal to both and solutions to deal with conflicting playstyles give both what they want together in ONE game and you have a success in the works it all comes down to one thing FUN , but you got to have options for every playstyles if you don't like x content don't do it why deny someone else's view of fun cause of your playstyle?
I forgot to add if your going to have a sandbox/themepark MMO not all of the game should be centered around combat and have noncombat professions like crafters and enterainers give people the choice to do lots of things in game giving more social type game play.
WOW forces you a lot more gently than UO. A lot of people don't raid in WOW, you know. Most people (just go to wow-heroes and check guild progress) don't do hard modes.
The BEAUTY of the game is it let you CHOOSE yo level of difficulties. Surely you don't get into raids with all green items but you don't have to. I have friends who never raid and just play the other parts of the game. The game is BIG enough for them to do that.
The secret to WOW is that it let the PLAYER choose the difficulties. You have everything from simple quests, to hard mode, which only the best guilds on each servers can even tackle.
It is a MUCH better game than UO in that regard. Plus, you don't have to PvP if you don't want to. UO FORCES you to PvP.
"At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers" .. that is BAD game design and rejected by most players in the market.
You don't really undestand EVE to realize the PVP isn't all pervvasive and you can build an amazing amount of things if you'll look past your perceptions.
Most of what you build in WOW is obsolete with the next expansion, (if it was ever good to begin with) and has no lasting impact. In EVE you can actually build permenant space stations that can never be destroyed, and there are ships that were built 5 years ago still in the game and still just as useful as they were back then.
UO was a great game mostly because it was first. Once plaeyrs and developers realized how much money there was to be made by quest oriented, more theme park like games thats where the market went and remains today.
To tell the truth I really never understoond why people obssess that something can/will become obsolete. For me the thrill is in building something and then see it fullfill its function. The fact that something better might become available at a later time is completely irrelevant to the satisfaction of completing a project.
I like to push the limits of what I can do but I find no enjoyment in gambling. My biggest issue with EVE is that at certain point pushing your limits requires you to gamble. The 'do not fly what you cannot afford to lose' rule of the game is very boring to me. I love the concept of EVE but in the hassle of PvP pretty much invalidates all that potential.
WOW forces you a lot more gently than UO. A lot of people don't raid in WOW, you know. Most people (just go to wow-heroes and check guild progress) don't do hard modes.
The BEAUTY of the game is it let you CHOOSE yo level of difficulties. Surely you don't get into raids with all green items but you don't have to. I have friends who never raid and just play the other parts of the game. The game is BIG enough for them to do that.
The secret to WOW is that it let the PLAYER choose the difficulties. You have everything from simple quests, to hard mode, which only the best guilds on each servers can even tackle.
It is a MUCH better game than UO in that regard. Plus, you don't have to PvP if you don't want to. UO FORCES you to PvP.
"At the very least in UO, you had to watch your back with a hightened sence of awareness due to PKers" .. that is BAD game design and rejected by most players in the market.
C'mon.....questing or running 5 mans are not viable endgame alternatives to raiding. The game revolves around aquiring gear with a very clear progression ladder Questing > 5 Mans > 5 Man Heroics > RAIDING. Casual players may never reach the final destination and have enough to do on the bottom of the ladder to keep them busy.....but make no mistake, all roads lead to Best In Slot Gear that is only aquirable by having enough time required for endgame raiding. The same can be said for WOW PvP.
As far as being able to choose your own level of difficulty......its fine and all, only that only the few self motivated players are going to be the ones to push themselves to improve their game. Many will settle and plateau if they are getting enough goodies to satisfy them. (See WOW Battlegrounds........Terrible players that repeat the same failed game plan "or lack there of" over and over and over with nothing to slap them on the knuckles to play better)
By the way....as of the first expansion to UO released in like 1998 (Trammel expansion) you were not forced to PvP to do anything.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase. The people that did stick around and adapted to the challenged were MUCH more enjoyable to play with than many of the playerbase in WOW that wouldn't know how to play their toon even if they had an manual prepared by elitistjerks themselves.
There are a lot of players who played UO that have been chasing that adrenaline rush given the FFA environment in nearly every MMO game thats been released since. And this again, this may be a matter of opinion, but I valued the things I had and the positive experiences I had more considering the risk and dangers required to get them than I have in an environment where items and experiences come with little consequence.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase.
If GPS was never invented and we were all still forced to use a compass we'd be much better trackers and pathfinders. But you know what, how many people really give a poop? Give someone a compass and give someone a GPS and go tell them to get to a location. How many will turn their nose up at the GPS and go, give me that compass? Too few to matter. Who cares what results by forcing people to do what they don't want to do? The ultimate result is they won't play the game. Then what have you acheived?
Making a game overly difficult to play does indeed end up with a playerbase who knows what they're doing. But you know what, there are plenty of people who know how to play WOW 100X better than others and if I don't want to play with the clueless ones, I don't have to;) I get the best of both worlds and I don't have to suffer to get it.
As for the "Wild Wild West" mentality and it being a BAD game design that was rejected by most players....I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I said in one of my previous posts....there weren't a lot of people that ENJOYED losing all their stuff they were carying on them upon death, but it ultimately resulted in a more resourceful, aware, and knowledgeable playerbase.
If GPS was never invented and we were all still forced to use a compass we'd be much better trackers and pathfinders. But you know what, how many people really give a poop? Give someone a compass and give someone a GPS and go tell them to get to a location. How many will turn their nose up at the GPS and go, give me that compass? Too few to matter. Who cares what results by forcing people to do what they don't want to do? The ultimate result is they won't play the game. Then what have you acheived?
Making a game overly difficult to play does indeed end up with a playerbase who knows what they're doing. But you know what, there are plenty of people who know how to play WOW 100X better than others and if I don't want to play with the clueless ones, I don't have to;) I get the best of both worlds and I don't have to suffer to get it.
Good analogy, but I have to disagree with you on the rest.
I'm one of those WOW players that don't have the time to dedicate to raid schedules and I'm the one that ends up with the idiots in 5 mans and Battlegrounds. It's not fun playing with players who have had to only mash 3 buttons their entire leveling process to get to where they are....and then watch them fall on their face the second a situation that requires a bit of fast thinking and resoursefulness presents itself.
When 30+ players in an Arathi Valley battleground get wiped at a choke point and it NEVER occurs to anyone that they can choose another route to their destination, it says a lot about the playerbase. Nope...lets just rez up (no harm, no foul) and lets do it again, and again, and again. Not a very satisfying playing experience.
I agree in that making stuff hard for the sake of making it hard is not a great practice.....but when something difficult presents itself that has a legitimate reason for being difficult, it absolutely has a place and the player/community benefits in the long run.
Well that skirts the actual Time cost to players. The actual cost includes the time spent getting the gold to buy the armor. The trip to the vendor could be instantaneous, but if the gold takes more than 4 minutes to farm then death has "cost" that player more than it does in WOW.
Layered on top of that cost is the reason behind the cost. Incurring a cost due to your own mistake (PVE) is much more acceptable to players than someone else forcing the cost upon you (open PVP). When you mention the cost is increased in the open PVP situation (player takes your gear) that makes the situation even worse. Furthermore, in the PVE situation they probably stood more to gain by continuing to kill the mobs than they would stand to gain in open PVP. So the entire situation is strongly weighted towards this disadvantegous persecution of another player. And for most players that's just not as fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well that skirts the actual Time cost to players. The actual cost includes the time spent getting the gold to buy the armor. The trip to the vendor could be instantaneous, but if the gold takes more than 4 minutes to farm then death has "cost" that player more than it does in WOW.
Layered on top of that cost is the reason behind the cost. Incurring a cost due to your own mistake (PVE) is much more acceptable to players than someone else forcing the cost upon you (open PVP). When you mention the cost is increased in the open PVP situation (player takes your gear) that makes the situation even worse. Furthermore, in the PVE situation they probably stood more to gain by continuing to kill the mobs than they would stand to gain in open PVP. So the entire situation is strongly weighted towards this disadvantegous persecution of another player. And for most players that's just not as fun.
I said most games. I didn't break the numbers down, is it 4 minutes to farm for another set, 8 minutes? I don't know, but its not the two hours of hell most people seem to assume. What if you found a "purple"? you could have enough gold for a plethora of suits..
Then again, halfway decent guilds will have multiple sets ready to go in the guild bank. You go out with your guild, and work on your crafters and supplies for a night during the week, call it a guild function. Maybe the guild will find a few reds that seem to infest the resource spots at every turn.
Or, what if the stars the moon, and the planets aligned just right, and you actually killed the PK (gasp!), then you could take his stuff, and be ahead of the game. However, that is never an option when this discussion is brought up.
Not every PK is in godmode.
Look, i get it, PvP is not for everyone, and thats fine, I dont care for PvE, i find it dull and monotonous. In the OP i don't believe the words PvP or full loot were even brought up, he was just talking about the model. Most of the points brought up there could be considered "carebear". However, people immedietly jumped to losing their gear, and chose to completly ignore everything else.
UO had many options, from full loot, to designing your own house (which i thought was one of the greatest aditions i ever saw to an MMO) block by block, not just plopping down a cottage deed. I was stunned by the art and design skills people had with such a simple tool.
UO was a living breathing world, a lot of people consider WoW a living breathing world, but imo, its not even close. Others will disagree, thats fine.
UO was harsh, but you could make your own home however, you might lose all your gear the next night. You might watch the entire server unite to take on GM controlled monsters trying to take over a town. You could defend a GM sponsored player town from a gang of reds, or you could recall around and see player made museums. You could become an anti-pk, and hunt the reds, or you can become a crafter that supples the reds in a black market, just as a few sill examples. It wasn't just about getting that next piece of gear, and i think thats what a lot of us miss.
Sadly when UO is brought up people tend to only see their gear getting taken, and its a shame that theres a whole slew of people out there that think that thats the only thing UO brought to the genre', most having never even played it.
I'm not saying that everyone would love the UO model now, but given the development over time it may have morphed into something more "mainstream". WoW is not as close to EQ as everyone thinks, but over time, the model developed.
I think a real part of the problem is, its just easier to make a themepark. Content wise, economy wise, server stabilty, amongst many other things, so it wil be awhile before sandboxes become "mainstream"
Sandboxes are no better than Themeparks, overall. They offer different things, for different people. Sandbox is not going to take the place of "Mainstream" from Themeparks because themeparks aren't inferior to sandboxes.
Just because it's harder to make doesn't make it better when done right.
I don't recall saying sandboxes would take the place of themeparks. I also don't recall saying one was inferior to the other either.
edit-
not sure if your post was directed at me or not, but seemed it.. apologies if it wasnt
Well, that's if there can be two "mainstreams" at once... which wouldn't make sense. If you meant that sandboxes would be just as popular as themeparks, then that's right.
Theres nothing wrong with more choices for the consumer...
especially when you're the consumer...
Not my point. You assumed sandboxes need more work to become "mainstream", which would mean sandboxes would become more popular than themeparks. I don't think that's the case.
Perhaps i misspoke then, I don't think one needs to more popular than the other, maybe i should have said more mainstream. I honestly dont think they would become more popular than themeparks either, and from a personal point of view, i hope they don't ; )
I think with more development, they could lose the stigma that they seemed to have acquired (see this thread).
It's kinda sad that it seems it's almost too hard for the developers to create a proper themepark game nowadays, and if sandbox would be even harder to create well... the sandbox fans will have to wait a while longer for the game they deserve.
Nah .. i was in UO beta and thought that it was a horrible game. Clicking nonstop to level mining. Everyone a tank mage. Pk is rampant. You can't move 10 feet without being killed. Any place with any resources is camped to the hilt.
I jumped ship once EQ came out. Never look back. Despite with all the problems (down-time, camping ..), EQ is 10x the game UO is. And i am glad that the industry moved AWAY from the UO model. And by the maximum subscription rate of this two games, a lot more people like the EQ model than the UO model.
You obviously don't like freedom of choice in your online ROLE PLAYING game. UO was amazing (well, look at the name ;p). I recently tried Fallen Earth..and..it's not UO but it has some nice elements of that "sandbox" feel to it. I thought the same thing as the OP. I thought to myself "Wow, I can only imagine in 10 years what MMO gaming will be like". It turns out it's crap and uninspiring for the most part. If you could build, decorate, trade houses in UO..I think it should be feasible now, and that's only hitting on one of the elements of UO. I don't think the "FFA" style would work today though. Something close would be nice, maybe partial loot, something of that sort.
There is truth in this statement. If UO was so great, why aren't the bulk of the player base still playing? Oh wait, it must have been Trammel, right? Oh wait, no ... it couldn't have been that since they had a shard specifically set aside without the Trammel/Felucca split (Siege Perilous). So, again, why did people leave? Why aren't you playing it anymore?
As far as the market is concerned, Sandbox games are will remain a minority within the MMO industry. Most people don't care about freedom or a virtual world. They simply want a good game for their monthly fee. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't room for sandbox MMOs. However, if you really think they will ever become the future of the MMO market, you are deluding yourself. The only reason why UO was so big in the past was simply because there was no where else to go. Not everyone liked or had the ability to run a 3D game such as EQ. So, UO was pretty much it. As hardware got cheaper, new MMOs came out and UO started to dwindle away.
Now, personally, I played UO since 96 and I stayed until the second expansion after Trammel. I left simply because I was bored. Not enough new "tools" were given to the players to continue the sandbox game play and not do the same thing over and over. I came back (twice) over the past couple of years. I chose not to stay, because the game became heavily itemized, moved away from the crafters and also included item insurance. It seemed to have become nothing more than a dungeon crawl and collect the items with the highest stats.
You ask why nobody plays it, but you answered your own question by saying it became heavily itemized , etc. Now..if you think about that..that's how games are today, which the reason you quit UO for. The "tools" were all there for you. You coul literally do almost anything. Chop wood, build a fuckin fire if you want, fish. I'm suprised at one point you couldn't just piss in the woods. It's really too bad UO2 never took off. The trailer today even still looks awesome ;p. Let's also not forget UO is like 12 years old now and after 3-4 years is when it kind of started to take a hit because of all the "fancy" 3D MMOs like Asherons, DaoC, so on.
You're saying you have no black cats,
Roman candles or screaming meemies?
Come on. You don't got no ladyfingers,
buzz bottles, snicker bombs...
...church burners, finger blasters, gut
busters, zippedy-doodas, crap flappers?
No, I don't.
You're gonna stand there,
owning a fireworks stand...
...and say you have
no whistling bungholes...
...spleen splitters, whisker biscuits,
honkey lighters, Hüsker Düs and don'ts.
Cherry bombs, nipsy dazers, with
or without the scooter stick...
...or one single
whistling kitty-chaser?
No.
Because snakes and sparklers
are the only ones I like.
That might be your problem.
It's not what you like.
It's the consumer.
If uo was so bad, why does every wow player (and it's clones) want all the features uo had?
I'm talking about player houses, mounts/boats/ships/whatever, pets and complete armor/cloth customization. Go read the dev journal of any mmo out there today. If the game hasn't already patched those features in, you can bet that they are being promised along with the sun and the moon. Coincidently, no other game except uo has all those features as far as I know.
Yes, old school uo was wolves vs sheep and nobody liked to be a sheep. Yes, it's pretty obvious a lot of you were the sheep and are still very upset over being virtually violated in your first mmo. No, a sandbox game in 2010 would not be like that so you can stop your irrational hatred toward the genre.
I think it's messed up how we pay for the same promises in each mmo we move to like this. There is no reason why any mmo shouldn't have dye tubs, or mounts/vehicles along with swimming or flying because pretty much every game engine licensed out for mmos support these features with zero development time outside art and design. Housing a proper customization system does require a little bit of work but the other stuff? No way. Also, why don't more minigames like Uo did? People use to program checkers on their calculators in the 80s but we can't have that minigame available in our little mmo world? Don't you dare cite development time for that bullshit either.
Basic things like fishing/checkers/chess/whatever should be a staple of mmo time wasters. I've seen a few korean games that experiment with this. A mini game here, a music game there. If I can play it on my instant messanger, there should be some half-baked version in the mmo world as well. I believe that if developers really cared about their virtual worlds/games, they would add this kind of fluff to keep people busy while the real content was being made. But they don't. It doesn't matter if you are spending 1,000 dollars a month in a "free to play game" or 15 dollars a month in a "pay to play" game. You are just money to them. If you wise up and stop paying, well there is always someone new to take your place. The mmo industry has lost it's soul. It's no longer about the community or building virtual worlds.
Sorry if this has been said before by others, but I'm not reading this whole thread, just my 2 cents
Nostalgia. Grass is greener on the other side. People who have never played UO think they would like it, but might not after all.
All of the above.
I agree with you, but one of the major problems with Sandbox MMO's is balance, there's always someone that's going to find a way to tweak a toon so that it has a huge advantage. Then you get copy cats, and the developers have to sit down and find a way to fix that without breaking everything else.
UO's one major flaw is they didn't separate PvP and PvE, the systems are too intertwined. Alterations to one effects the other and not always in a good way. I still play UO, I see the effects all the time and how many of the players have to constantly rebuild character or modify them to keep them at a level where they can actually compete, while having the character suit their tastes.
Granted I have nothing against Open PvP areas, it's the internal coding that I'm talking about, everything in UO is PvP or PvE works the same way as far as skills matter. You don't really see Damage Caps for Controlled Mobs for example because they game doesn't recognize the difference between it attacking in PvE as opposed to PvP.
In reality I'd love to see more UO style games go mainstream. They have a wide horizon when you look at possibility to add depth. Sadly since Blizzard attended the EQ School of MMO Design market trends dictate that future titles from major studios will follow that model.
I know we are talking game mechanics here but I wonder if the people today would take to a "top down" birds' eye view MMO. Perhaps, something like Diablo? I would have to assume, even though those type of games bog down that you could have larger "wars" without lag, not to mention that view (imo) is awesome and different.